Men Playing Women's Sports

I imagine this will end up in the courts with SCOTUS ruling against it. That, or women sports will be ruined in less than 5 years.

Ridiculous!

SMH - wrong just wrong on so many levels.....

It does happen the other way around on occasion. True story of a girl that wrestled when I was in school. Nobody wanted to wrestle her weight class not because she was a girl, but because she was a beast. Her dad was a former D1 college wrestler from Jersey. I use to laugh at the light weight guys trying to dodge her weight class knowing full well I didn't want no parts of it 

There is basically no way to separate this topic from politics.  The party of “equality” is eating its own tail.  This is the natural progression of identity politics trailing off into absurdity.  

This is already playing out in some sports, “women’s” cycling being one.

@ReluctantO'sFan posted:

SMH - wrong just wrong on so many levels.....

It does happen the other way around on occasion. True story of a girl that wrestled when I was in school. Nobody wanted to wrestle her weight class not because she was a girl, but because she was a beast. Her dad was a former D1 college wrestler from Jersey. I use to laugh at the light weight guys trying to dodge her weight class knowing full well I didn't want no parts of it 

I'm completely fine with girls playing boys sports. There are a few girls in our county playing varsity this year. Boys at the HS level and beyond are naturally bigger, faster, stronger.

A girl I grew up with (smokin' hot) was always tomboyish. She took up wrestling in HS and made it to the state final 4. She would kick my ass before she knew how to wrestle, adding technique made her pretty tough to beat.

What about more women will turn to PED's to increase their testosterone levels and even the playing field?   Gonna be interesting to see the lawsuits where they try punishing women for using PEDs but allow men to play women's sports.   

It is in the courts in CT already. 

https://www.nbcconnecticut.com...te-title-ix/2278511/

A quick google search brings up a whole list of articles.

I think that this opens the door for a lot of potential abuse.  There will be organizations like the IOC that hage guidelines that stipulate certain testosterone levels for X months before competition.  That ignores the physiological differences in muscle and bone structure earlier in life.

A tennis example, the average speed for a men's serve is 184 kph (114 MPH) The women's  average is 158 kph (98 MPH).   That is a 15% drop in speed.   

At the Rio Olympics - the women's gold medalist ran 10.71 in the 100m.   The men's last place finisher ran 10.08.  A half second in the 100M is an eternity. 

The US women's national soccer team lost to a club u15 boys team.  Granted it was only a friendly - but 5-2 is a rout in soccer.

https://www.cbssports.com/socc...team-in-a-scrimmage/

Unfortunately - the end result will be the very best women will be able to compete - but they will at best be near the average of the best men.  This will trickle down to lower levels and what will likely will happen... There will not be enough women born athletes competing - to have a separate women's division - those that have the talent may become disheartened and drop out before reaching their potential or the truly gifted women born athlete will develop to be on par as those of the truly gifted men.

The losers will be the good but not great women athletes that lose out on the opportunities sports offer.

I don't see how this does not conflict directly with Title 9.  I do not have girls but I think it is absurd that this would be allowed.  I do have granddaughters that if this continues will not be able to compete.  I had a conversation yesterday with some baseball players and asked if they would consider identifying as a woman to get a scholarship and play softball.  Almost every one of them said absolutely.  That is sad that this is where we are headed.

@PitchingFan posted:

I know this will go off the tracks politically real fast but let's try to give it a chance.  How do you think Biden's Executive Order that requires athletes born male who say they identify as women to play will affect women's sports?

I wonder if average boys baseball, basketball, soccer, track and so on players will be willing to identify as a woman to get a scholarship and compete in college.  I think there will be some who will push this.  I can see the guy who would be a good D2 player in baseball switching over to fastpitch softball and playing P5 softball.  I may be surprised but I think it will happen.

I also think even in high school if the seasons are different that some will play baseball in the spring and softball in the fall as some states do.

Let's go.  Open the flood gates.  I think this post will last 4 days.

You want no part of a riseball from 39 feet.

You see, there is no Title 9 issue because all you have to do is say you “identify as a woman” and you are now a woman and thus entitled to the same Title 9 slots.  Anyone who does not play along with the delusion, or outright con in some cases, is transphobic and full of hate and must be cancelled.

It will be interesting to see what women's rights group do about this.  So far they have been relatively quiet but things may change now that the election is past.  That said, I don't see how women's sports survive when the fundamental reason for their existence is removed.

On a related note, perhaps they will now fix the injustice of requiring 18 year old males to register for the draft while specifically not requiring women to do so.  This chart was taken from the Selective Service website and shows registration requirements for transgender people:

what about auto insurance premiums?  life insurance?   it is a slippery slope and getting steeper.

@Go44dad posted:

You want no part of a riseball from 39 feet.

It’s 43 feet. There are men pitching in ASA softball that make Jenny Finch look mediocre in comparison. Finch maxed in the low 70’s (68-72). Quality male softball pitchers max 95. Try 95 from 43 feet. You’re guessing at the plate.

This executive order is the sports aspect of Title IX down the drain. Mediocre male athletes who don’t make teams are switching genders and becoming the best in their state. Connecticut track is an example I’m aware of that made national news.

Men’s field hockey is big in other parts of the world. When families move to the US the boys have to play field hockey with the girls. It’s either play with the girls or the school conferences have to start boys field hockey. There isn’t a demand for it. I remember several years ago in Pennsylvania there was outrage a couple of boys were dominating girls field hockey playing for the same school. They were also injuring girls with their physical, but legal play.

For those who don’t know Title IX was not started about sports. It was about education and equal rights. It was about Patsy Mink graduating from college PBK and being rejected by twelve med schools. She went to law school, became a congresswoman and changed the world.

I realize there are some who are bothered by Title IX’s impact on sports. But girls who grow up playing sports tend to stay out of trouble and become mentally stronger and successful women. My daughter has learned bitch is a synonym for successful professional woman.

@RJM posted:

It’s 43 feet. There are men pitching in ASA softball that make Jenny Finch look mediocre in comparison. Finch maxed in the low 70’s (68-72). Quality male softball pitchers max 95. Try 95 from 43 feet. You’re guessing at the plate.

They let go at @39 feet.

Valid questions. Can anyone imagine a softball coming back at you at 110 miles per hour from 40 feet? It's hard to believe that we actually need to have these types of conversations.

Politics should be left out of sports! And make no mistake, this executive order is nothing but politics. It's all about optics, they don't care how it affects girls and women.

So far, so good with this thread.  Nice work, HSBBW.  Let's keep it going.

There is no doubt that problems are on the way.  I'd hope everyone can appreciate what Biden and Co. are trying to accomplish.  I think their hearts are mostly in the right place unless they're simply caving to political pressure.  Unfortunately, making decisions with your heart and less with your mind are rarely smart and/or holistic.

I was just thinking about this the other day.  How many guys have desires to play in the NBA?  Tons, but NBA rosters are small, so if you want to keep playing the game, your options are few and far.  And if you actually want to make a living playing the game, you're largely SOL.  But the average player in the WNBA makes about $100K a year.  Far better than you'll do in any league outside of the NBA, right?  Part of me thinks that no men will actually lie and face all the pressure/scrutiny/ridicule of switching gender identity to play in the WNBA.  But then I can't ignore how badly some kids want to play sports for a living.  How some kids feel they'll have no other chance in life outside of sports.  When presented with identifying as female, making $100K a year, and continuing to play the game or heading back to their old neighborhood and old distractions, adversity, etc, some will absolutely choose the former.  While it'll come with some hate from some, it'll also come with lots of attention and publicity. Something this younger generation is typically a big fan of.  Then the potential is there to be a star and be lauded by some groups as brave pioneers.  Do well enough in the WNBA and maybe you'll grab some NBA attention and have an opp to go where you always wanted - the NBA.  You'll get killed in press for switching genders back as an opportunist, but you'll be in the NBA and it'll be worth it for most.  Outside of a lie detector, there is no real science to identify fakes/opportunists under such circumstances.  And if you challenge someone's sincerity with regard to their gender identity, you'll get hammered by social justice groups and possibly lawsuits.  I hate to be so cynical, but there are few places we won't go for money and notoriety.  Sadly, we place a ton of emphasis on it each and every day.  Human nature (the good or the bad) isn't often considered when drafting legislation.  So yes, significant problems are inevitable.

@Triple J posted:

Valid questions. Can anyone imagine a softball coming back at you at 110 miles per hour from 40 feet? It's hard to believe that we actually need to have these types of conversations.

It's probably not realistic to see biological men excel at softball unless they've been at it their whole lives.  Jenny Finch pretty much proved that.  But what about volleyball, tennis, golf, swimming, track & field, wrestling, basketball, etc...  With private colleges costing $70k or more and out-of-state public schools costing $50k, I'm sure we will see some people exploit this order to get a scholarship from the women's team.

Sorry DanJ but you took it to politics.  Many on here do not think that what Biden and Company are trying to accomplish is good in any form just like the rest did not like what Trump did.  Please don't bring politics into this anymore than it already is by the agenda.

I do not think anyone will chastise these guys for saying they identify to gain scholarships or playing time or whatever.  The sad part is that pleasing one of their leading groups that supports them is also hurting another of the groups that supports them.   It may be that it blows up quicker than we think.

I asked a couple of college coaches of female sports what they were going to do over the past 24 hours and they and their administrations are already getting ready to deal with it.  As one softball coach, other than maybe pitching and that is because there are few boys who can fastpitch right now the sport could possibly become dominated by males.  But they experimented last night for the fun of it and a college baseball player threw three pitches from the girls mound and all were 75 plus having never thrown underhand before and 2/3 were strikes.

I think the first guy who comes out and does this successfully will receive endorsements and be praised.  Likely on several magazine covers.  That is the world we are in now.  Someone is going to take that gravy train.  And the girl who's spot he takes, better not complain or she will be a villain.

I think the guy who gets the most coverage will be the guy who is NOT transgender but does it to make a point will be the one.  I think that guy who just says I can manipulate the system and play P5 softball by saying I'm a woman and not acting or doing anything will be the one who gets crazy promotions but will also be the one who is hated.

I feel bad for female athletes who have put a lot of time and energy into being the best they can at their sport of choice.   In CT two biological males came one 1st and second in the 55 yd sprint women's championships last year (and I think the year before).   Imagine if your daughter came in 3rd in the 55 yd sprint last year. She should be state champ.  I don't know, maybe my priorities are messed up but I honestly dont' know anyone who thinks this EO was a good idea. It just doesn't seem fair to women.   

It's one helluva paradox, for sure.  We've invested so much into the concepts of equality and how everyone is the same and how no one is better than another, but then we're presented with inescapable instances proving we're not equal, not the same and that some do perform better.  I don't have the solution, but balance is likely the key.  A compromise where both factions are equally satisfied and dissatisfied with the outcome.  Or we can spend the next century+ fighting over it due to our unwillingness to compromise.

@Go44dad posted:

They let go at @39 feet.

Regardless of rubber distance or release distance men would still make Finch look mediocre. And she’s arguably the best female pitcher ever.

There is no paradox.  The party of science turning a blind eye to science when it does not match their social justice agenda is pure and simple hypocrisy.  We have made logical accommodation (Title 9) to provide opportunities for a group that makes up roughly 50% of the population.  Blowing that up to accommodate a handful of people simply to follow the string on a social justice narrative is ridiculous.  If “We” are all the same why don’t “We” just pick the best athletes, make one team and go play......after all, “We” are all the same, no?

If coaches of women's sports want to win (and I assume they do) then they will actively recruit males and the best women's teams will have the most males on the roster.  The end game of this isn't hard to figure out.

I did some research - it seems like US college track and field follows IOC rules that require transgender athletes to be actively undergoing horomone therapy in order to compete. If these same rules were extended to other scholarship sports like softball, etc , then you wouldn't have the issue of "mediocre men" deciding to "be women" to earn scholarship money.

As for high school, it seems unfair to allow people who have gone through puberty as men to compete athletically with people who have gone through puberty as women. On the other hand it seems cruel to tell a person who been identifying as trans from young ages, and who had the courage to admit it in public, that they can't play as their own self-identified gender. Maybe some sort of compromise might be reached for 9-12 grades? Like in track or other individual sports, allotting extra slots as needed in high-level meets so that the cis girls dont get bumped by trans girls?

It's so refreshing that this is the biggest of our worries these days!

@2019&21 Dad posted:

It's so refreshing that this is the biggest of our worries these days!

Covid is over. Democrat states are going back to work.

We were doing so well for the first 3 hours... FWIW, I do not think this is the answer either. I have no idea what the answer is but I believe there is an inherent competitive unfairness (scientifically proven unfairness) in the proposed Executive Order.

@2019&21 Dad posted:

It's so refreshing that this is the biggest of our worries these days!

It’s ridiculous that with all the worries, this was the top priority, but here we are...

I come to this site to talk about anything but COVID.  Being a baseball recruiting site it’s refreshing to talk about anything other than what’s in our faces daily.  

@Fan2024 posted:

I did some research - it seems like US college track and field follows IOC rules that require transgender athletes to be actively undergoing horomone therapy in order to compete. If these same rules were extended to other scholarship sports like softball, etc , then you wouldn't have the issue of "mediocre men" deciding to "be women" to earn scholarship money.

I don't believe they'll be able to enforce these rules.  I could be wrong, but I believe the order is that if someone identifies as transgender female then they can compete on the female teams, no questions asked.

How long until a trans gets cut but is obviously better than a normal female then sues for discrimination? If I were a coach of a female sport I’d be looking at a different occupation right now. No  chance I’d want any part of this.

The more I think about this the more I feel bad for female athletes. I don’t have a daughter, but I’d be super pissed if I had one and had to watch her get cut or lose to a person scientifically proven to be a male.

I read the text of the executive order. in the part specifically about access to sports, it says 'children' which is why I interpreted that as K-12 rather than college. Also, for high schools (including the CT high schools where those two trans track athletes attend) you have to register as a particular gender. Seems like this would keep you from playing girls softball and boys baseball in the same calendar year. Admittedly, i am a hs physics teacher, not a lawyer...

https://www.whitehouse.gov/bri...-sexual-orientation/

It is a travesty.

PitchingFan - Here's my 20 foot pole, and I'm not touching it.   I'm going to let the courts at all levels, NCAA, and IOC figure it out as they have more information on the topic than I do.   If this becomes a national issue, and I have more information I will write my senators and representatives as I typically do.   I'm just a humble father of 3 trying to keep his family safe in 2021.   

I think this is a non-issue masquerading as an issue to whip up hysteria.  Peer pressure will keep most boys from falsely identifying as girls just to play on a sports team.  PF, if you have talked to boys who said they would switch genders to play sports in college, I have to think they were pulling your leg.

I was reading something about Hank Aaron today, it said that on one of his negro league teams in 1953, a woman, Toni Stone, was playing 2nd base.

@anotherparent posted:

I think this is a non-issue masquerading as an issue to whip up hysteria.  Peer pressure will keep most boys from falsely identifying as girls just to play on a sports team.  PF, if you have talked to boys who said they would switch genders to play sports in college, I have to think they were pulling your leg.

I'd have to agree with you, but if someone told me a few years ago that they'd move their kid from California to Georgia so they could play HS football i would have said they were pulling my leg too.

Based on the thread title, I thought this would be about Lacrosse...I kid, I kid, I really love my LAX playing family members, the baseball ones gets a teensy bit more.

There is one side that is 100% guaranteed to get exactly what they want out of this incredibly sensitive and divisive situation - attorneys. The legislation and litigation at the federal and state levels will put enough food on their tables such that every day could be Thanksgiving. I should have gone to law school.

@22and25 posted:

There is no paradox.  The party of science turning a blind eye to science when it does not match their social justice agenda is pure and simple hypocrisy.  We have made logical accommodation (Title 9) to provide opportunities for a group that makes up roughly 50% of the population.  Blowing that up to accommodate a handful of people simply to follow the string on a social justice narrative is ridiculous.  If “We” are all the same why don’t “We” just pick the best athletes, make one team and go play......after all, “We” are all the same, no?

Thank you 🤯

@anotherparent posted:

I think this is a non-issue masquerading as an issue to whip up hysteria.  Peer pressure will keep most boys from falsely identifying as girls just to play on a sports team.  PF, if you have talked to boys who said they would switch genders to play sports in college, I have to think they were pulling your leg.

I was reading something about Hank Aaron today, it said that on one of his negro league teams in 1953, a woman, Toni Stone, was playing 2nd base.

Take away the boys falsely identifying just for personal gain. You still have boys/men identifying as a girl/woman and having an unfair advantage over normal females.

Nobody cares about a woman playing in the men’s league. I welcome it if they can compete. Going the other way though is unfair to women.

@Fan2024 posted:

they can't play as their own self-identified gender.

Identify as whatever you want, but that doesn’t make it so. If I “identify” as a minority, will I get all the benefits that come with affirmative action?  Will I be discriminated against for saying my skin is “——-“ ? God has created what he has created. We are all imperfect.

@TerribleBPthrower posted:

Take away the boys falsely identifying just for personal gain. You still have boys/men identifying as a girl/woman and having an unfair advantage over normal females.

Nobody cares about a woman playing in the men’s league. I welcome it if they can compete. Going the other way though is unfair to women.

Very, very few.  How about, let the women athletes decide?

Are you saying that women's teams will welcome these ringers because it gives them a better chance to win?

How many arguments have there been on this site about ringers on baseball teams?

@anotherparent posted:

Very, very few.  How about, let the women athletes decide?

Are you saying that women's teams will welcome these ringers because it gives them a better chance to win?

How many arguments have there been on this site about ringers on baseball teams?

I’ve talked to several female athletes from different sports about this over the past year or so. Not one has said they welcome it. IMO, it doesn’t matter if it’s 10 or 100. Somewhere a female who is putting in the work is losing her victory or spot on a team because a male thinks he’s a female. You can be ok with it and I’m fine with that.

I’m not saying women teams would welcome male players. I’m saying male teams don’t care about females playing if they can compete. There have been a few very good female travel ball players in the 2023 group in FL. They aren’t quite as good now as sophomores, but they will all likely make varsity this year.

FWIW, I don't agree with it at all, myself; I think sports should be done according to biology, too.  But, I'm not an athlete.  I would be interested in hearing more from female athletes, as they are the ones who are impacted.

I'm not sure I agree that men don't care if a woman tries to play with them; I  mentioned the Hank Aaron thing because it happened to catch my eye.  I daresay at the time, some man thought he could play 2B better than she could, and was being denied a chance.  Same for the woman football kicker this year.  Same for your 2023 examples in Florida.

Roadrunner, I think you have hit the nail on the head - is it their choice? If you chose to (pretend to) be a minority, that would be your choice. And you could choose not to be. Trans kids don't have that choice. They are either pretending to be something they are not, with huge risks of suicide, abuse, and bullying, or they are being who they are as best they can (while still putting up with huge risks of abuse and bullying). I dont think many hs boys will come out as trans just to get a spot on the hs team. Those trans kids who do come out should be able to play and it would be great if hs state meet rules could be altered so cis girls dont lose spots. No mention was made in the executive order requiring trans adult spots on sports teams - as adults, trans folks have choices (which school, whether to pursue hormone therapy, transition, etc) that high school children don't.

One thing I’ll say about the female Vanderbilt placekicker. Somewhere along the line she learned how to elevate a placekick. My son (played goalie) was asked to kick for the football team. He could easily hit from forty with no one in front of him. But he didn’t have the time to learn how to elevate the ball over the line. He did well as a punter.

But had a male soccer player learned how to elevate a placekick he would have been better than the female kicker. He would have had a stronger leg.

I remember the excitement over someone on the Women’s National Soccer Team hitting fifty yard field goals at an NFL practice. There weren’t linemen. She wasn’t taking two steps up to the ball. She was running up to it.

@anotherparent posted:

FWIW, I don't agree with it at all, myself; I think sports should be done according to biology, too.  But, I'm not an athlete.  I would be interested in hearing more from female athletes, as they are the ones who are impacted.

I'm not sure I agree that men don't care if a woman tries to play with them; I  mentioned the Hank Aaron thing because it happened to catch my eye.  I daresay at the time, some man thought he could play 2B better than she could, and was being denied a chance.  Same for the woman football kicker this year.  Same for your 2023 examples in Florida.

If a female is getting a spot on a male team just because she’s a female, that’s wrong IMO. If she’s better than the male, welcome aboard. Again, just my opinion. The Vandy kicker was not good from what I saw. If it was a publicity stunt then they should be ashamed of themselves.

The boys on the teams with these girls (son has guest played with 2 of 3) didn’t care. A parent of a kid clearly not good enough to play on those teams was very critical of them and let everybody know they should be playing softball. I imagine there were others like him. But for the kids who were good enough to be on that team, they didn’t care

@Fan2024 posted:

Roadrunner, I think you have hit the nail on the head - is it their choice? If you chose to (pretend to) be a minority, that would be your choice. And you could choose not to be. Trans kids don't have that choice. They are either pretending to be something they are not, with huge risks of suicide, abuse, and bullying, or they are being who they are as best they can (while still putting up with huge risks of abuse and bullying). I dont think many hs boys will come out as trans just to get a spot on the hs team. Those trans kids who do come out should be able to play and it would be great if hs state meet rules could be altered so cis girls dont lose spots. No mention was made in the executive order requiring trans adult spots on sports teams - as adults, trans folks have choices (which school, whether to pursue hormone therapy, transition, etc) that high school children don't.

You say “those trans kids who come out should be able to play”.  Let’s follow your other assertion that it’s not a simple choice and they are just trying be be who they are the best they can.  

Well, unfortunately who they are doesn’t make them compatible with mainstream sports.  There are plenty of other genetic factors that keep just as many or more kids off the field.  Should boys who are too short to compete with other boys be allowed to play girls basketball?  There is a boy at my sons middle school who is profoundly small but wants nothing more than to play basketball.  He tried out in 7th and 8th grade and just wasn’t one of the best 25 kids that made the cut.  He could play circles around half of the girls who made the girls team.  So purely based on his genetic make up he is eliminated, no fault of his own.  What’s your argument for keeping him off the team where he could compete?

life is tough, many people are dealt shitty genetic circumstances that preclude them from having opportunities that other people take for granted.  The ethical question is what we need to address.  Do they need to be accommodated and at what cost to everyone else?

So again, should they be able to play?  If the answer is yes, what is the next logical step to accommodate every micro minority impacted negatively by the genetic lottery?

@Fan2024 posted:

Roadrunner, I think you have hit the nail on the head - is it their choice? If you chose to (pretend to) be a minority, that would be your choice. And you could choose not to be. Trans kids don't have that choice. They are either pretending to be something they are not, with huge risks of suicide, abuse, and bullying, or they are being who they are as best they can (while still putting up with huge risks of abuse and bullying). I dont think many hs boys will come out as trans just to get a spot on the hs team. Those trans kids who do come out should be able to play and it would be great if hs state meet rules could be altered so cis girls dont lose spots. No mention was made in the executive order requiring trans adult spots on sports teams - as adults, trans folks have choices (which school, whether to pursue hormone therapy, transition, etc) that high school children don't.

Everyone has a choice. Your choice may be painful, but it is your choice. If you are a biological male and choose to live as a female, it will be painful. Do not inflict your pain on others (women). Compete based on the genitals God provided you with.  If you would like to compete with pink ribbons in your hair and a dress on, go for it. To the non trans biological boys you are competing with: keep your heads down, mouth shut and compete. Zero tolerance for harassment.

@22and25 posted:

You say “those trans kids who come out should be able to play”.  Let’s follow your other assertion that it’s not a simple choice and they are just trying be be who they are the best they can.  

Well, unfortunately who they are doesn’t make them compatible with mainstream sports.  There are plenty of other genetic factors that keep just as many or more kids off the field.  Should boys who are too short to compete with other boys be allowed to play girls basketball?  There is a boy at my sons middle school who is profoundly small but wants nothing more than to play basketball.  He tried out in 7th and 8th grade and just wasn’t one of the best 25 kids that made the cut.  He could play circles around half of the girls who made the girls team.  So purely based on his genetic make up he is eliminated, no fault of his own.  What’s your argument for keeping him off the team where he could compete?

life is tough, many people are dealt shitty genetic circumstances that preclude them from having opportunities that other people take for granted.  The ethical question is what we need to address.  Do they need to be accommodated and at what cost to everyone else?

So again, should they be able to play?  If the answer is yes, what is the next logical step to accommodate every micro minority impacted negatively by the genetic lottery?

He could just “identify” as being tall. Add it to the resume. 6’7”, even if he has a bad tryout he will make the team and get many chances.

Said the mom of a vertically challenged D1 athlete 🤣

@RoadRunner posted:

Everyone has a choice. Your choice may be painful, but it is your choice. If you are a biological male and choose to live as a female, it will be painful. Do not inflict your pain on others (women). Compete based on the genitals God provided you with.  If you would like to compete with pink ribbons in your hair and a dress on, go for it. To the non trans biological boys you are competing with: keep your heads down, mouth shut and compete. Zero tolerance for harassment.

I agree with you 90%.  However, I think that part of identification is what you wear, and the other part is who you want to hang out with.  Just as I think peer pressure makes this rare, I could also see that someone born male who wants to play sports might prefer to be on a team with girls than with boys, even if the boys are the most sensitive, tolerant, and non-harassing in the world (which doesn't sound like any baseball team I remember).   My impression is that the culture of girls' athletic teams is different from that of boys.  Presumably girls who want to play baseball instead of softball prefer that boy culture?

That's why I say again, I want to know what the girls think about it.  If they don't mind, I don't mind.  If they do mind, I do mind.  And I agree, life isn't fair, genetics aren't fair, there's no way to be fair to everyone.

@anotherparent posted:

I agree with you 90%.  However, I think that part of identification is what you wear, and the other part is who you want to hang out with.  Just as I think peer pressure makes this rare, I could also see that someone born male who wants to play sports might prefer to be on a team with girls than with boys, even if the boys are the most sensitive, tolerant, and non-harassing in the world (which doesn't sound like any baseball team I remember).   My impression is that the culture of girls' athletic teams is different from that of boys.  Presumably girls who want to play baseball instead of softball prefer that boy culture?

That's why I say again, I want to know what the girls think about it.  If they don't mind, I don't mind.  If they do mind, I do mind.  And I agree, life isn't fair, genetics aren't fair, there's no way to be fair to everyone.

I prefer to be a millionaire. Better culture. Do you think the millionaires will accept me?  Let’s keep it real!  Yes boys baseball teams are not the most sensitive. You can’t legislate sensitive. It’s uncomfortable to be different. Work with what God gave you. If you are man that thinks you are a woman, that is a large cross to bear. But you can’t force others to carry it for you. Is it fair for others to carry it?  What if girls are uncomfortable showering with a boy that wants to be a girl?  Who’s feelings are more important?  Keep it concrete. “You get what you get and you don’t have a fit!”  

I’ve done research on trans due to a trans cousin. The research I did was on girls becoming boys. She decided she’s a boy in high school.

In many states if a parent tells their kid he/she isn’t trans and the kid reports it the parent can lose custody of their kid. A parent can’t even ask, “Are you sure?” It’s considered being contentious. My cousin, a high powered lawyer is very upset by the complete lack of control in helping his kid in directing (now) his life. All he could say is, “Whatever you wish,” when his daughter was a high school soph.

This kid, to double down decided he’s a gay trans. He announced he’s interested in dating a certain guy at the Thanksgiving dinner table a day after coming out as a trans.

Going back to be a preteen the kid has always done contrarian things. I think it’s because the parents are Ivy Leaguers and powerhouse lawyers while the kid can’t carry their intellectual lunchbox.

80% of girls who claim to be trans guys in high school decide they’re not in college. It was just a phase.

What concerns me is educators who want to be teaching about gender at ages where kids aren’t old enough to understand their own sexuality. Preteens should not be selecting their sex or even thinking about it.

I was a class clown as a kid. It was my way of drawing attention I wasn’t getting at home. Had “self identify” been terminology when I was young I would have told school counselors I self identify as a lunatic.

@anotherparent I just asked my daughters one who plays women’s basketball in the big 10 and the other who manages in the ACC. Their response was:

“It makes sense to me if they’re transsexual in the way that they’re actually taking hormones to become the gender they identify. But if you’re transgender but physically you’re still a man then that’s not going to work well.”

For the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10 percent more pushups and 6 percent more situps than their cisgender female counterparts. After two years, Roberts told NBC News, “they were fairly equivalent to the cisgender women.”

Their running times declined as well, but two years on, trans women were still 12 percent faster on the 1.5 mile-run than their cisgender peers.

https://www.nbcnews.com/featur...erapy-study-n1252764

I am afraid what your daughters might not be considering is the impact of puberty.  Taking hormones post puberty to suppress gender traits does not undo the muscle growth and bone density advantages of having gone through puberty with teenage boy doses of testosterone in your system.  There may be some loss of physical advantages with hormone therapy but the genetic advantages for the most part are baked in at that point.  

Does anyone really think a year of estrogen injections is going to level the playing field for these athletes?

@22and25 no argument from me. That was the scientific evidence I was referring to when I first responded. Considering this is my daughter, she would most definitely be at a disadvantage from a muscle mass standpoint.

Love it!  She's having a great season.  College is somewhat different, though; how do you think she would have felt about it in high school?  Would it have been relevant in AAU ball?

@PTWood posted:

@22and25 no argument from me. That was the scientific evidence I was referring to when I first responded. Considering this is my daughter, she would most definitely be at a disadvantage from a muscle mass standpoint.

She’s adorable!

Thanks! She's just working on improving each season and is blessed with great teammates--they truly enjoy playing together.

I honestly think my girls responded from a place of compassion...thinking of someone who is transgender and just wants to play sports. The reality of it...which I think we've generally explored from all sides here...is much harder to implement. For example, if her brother were transgender, even if he started taking hormones his junior year, would have been a 6'5" 210 pound beast (he's 6'6" and 240 now). Even against D1-bound competition in the WCAC (a HS conference that produced NBA players like Marquelle Fultz and college players like Hunter Dickinson), he was averaging several dunks a game including one game where he had 6--he would have been ridiculous against his sister's team even though they started girls that went on to UConn (US Gatorade player of the year), UNC (Mutombo's niece--6'3"), Northwester, JMU and Colombia. I do agree that it would be highly unlikely (not impossible) that someone would pretend to be transgender just to play sports but even that does not eliminate the biological advantage transgender (male to female) athletes have.

There is a really good article on Brittney Griner in Elle (6'8" with hands bigger than LeBron's). They discuss the IOC's rules and the same slippery argument about biological advantages and how do you police that if you don't have a line in the sand.

"While the IOC has defended its policy [on testing testosterone levels for athletes of "debatable" sexuality], the medical community basically agrees that there is no testosterone cutoff that makes a person definitely male or female. Moreover, many argue, why single out testosterone from the other physical advantages elite athletes tend to possess? "Having big hands, being tall, having lax joints, having high oxygen-carrying capacities"—these aren't disqualifying factors, says J. Michael Bostwick, a Mayo Clinic psychiatrist who has studied the issue. "What if we got rid of all the people with lax limbs who are swimmers, because it's unfair to those of us who have tight limbs?" Or, as he wrote in a June 2012 medical journal article, viewers of the Olympics "might want to consider, in all fairness, how many world-class athletes bear any resemblance to regular Joes and Joans, either in how they look or perform."

@RoadRunner Thanks!!! She's a spitfire though. :-)

PTWood, great pic!  What a fantastic opportunity to play at that level of competition at such a great academic institution.  And you make some great points in your post.  Toward the end, the quote from the IOC I think misses the mark on the real issue.  You alluded to it with the example of your son and I tried to point it out as well, the present level of testosterone may be useful in policing doping but in trans women it does nothing to address the discrepancies in baseline genetic advantage from the process of reaching full physical maturity as a biological male.  Setting a limit on present testosterone for adult trans women is as useful as closing the gate after the horse has left the stable.

22and25, I wanted to address the small 7 and 8th grade boy scenario, and why do I see this as different. For marginaliized children without parental support or resources, public schools (and by extension, state and federal governments)  may be the only institutions looking out for their interests. Rec or travel leagues may not be accessible for various reasons.

Paula what we really need here to be fair is a pic of your 2 side by side! Your female bb player and your monster baseball player!

She’s not just adorable. She’s talented.

https://dailynorthwestern.com/...-win-over-wisconsin/

I don’t have a recent side by side but I do have two pictures of where they spent their entire Christmas breaks for comparison (anyone with athletes can relate to these pictures)!! LOL

You are blessed Paula. Enjoy it.!

He makes that fridge look like a camping model.

I feel you pain. My guy came in the other day with 2 big bags of food. I thought sweet!

But alas he sat and ate 43 chicken nuggets himself.

@Fan2024 posted:

22and25, I wanted to address the small 7 and 8th grade boy scenario, and why do I see this as different. For marginaliized children without parental support or resources, public schools (and by extension, state and federal governments)  may be the only institutions looking out for their interests. Rec or travel leagues may not be accessible for various reasons.

I am sorry but I don’t understand what point you are making here.  My point, as illustrated by the small aspiring basketball player, is that genetic make up alone has predetermined many people’s circumstances.  His opportunity to pursue basketball is lost because he will never grow beyond 5’ tall.  In the sports scenario is he being marginalized any more or less than someone born with gender dysphoria?  The emotionally comfortable thing to say is, “he should be allowed to play” but the reality is there is no practical way to accommodate him.

Why do you make him eat out of the mini fridge while your daughter gets the full size model?  Stop playing favorites, mom.....

@PTWood posted:

I don’t have a recent side by side but I do have two pictures of where they spent their entire Christmas breaks for comparison (anyone with athletes can relate to these pictures)!! LOL

I used to joke about getting a glass door for the fridge. When the kids went though major growth spurts even if they decided not to eat they would stick their faces in the fridge to think about it.

That pic of James just cracks me up! Ask about PT son's GF.

@PTWood posted:

I don’t have a recent side by side but I do have two pictures of where they spent their entire Christmas breaks for comparison (anyone with athletes can relate to these pictures)!! LOL

That's the smallest refrigerator I have ever seen. LOL!

Anyone else notice a huge drop in grocery bills once kid went off to school. I mean appreciably notice? Like trying to figure out why your checking account balance is high, then looking at all your auto-pays thinking something didn't work.

@Go44dad posted:

That's the smallest refrigerator I have ever seen. LOL!

Anyone else notice a huge drop in grocery bills once kid went off to school. I mean appreciably notice? Like trying to figure out why your checking account balance is high, then looking at all your auto-pays thinking something didn't work.

Groceries and water bill is 1/3 of what it is when they are home.

Not only has the grocery bill shrunk, but my car insurance dropped in half when I took him off my policy.

@Smitty28 posted:

Not only has the grocery bill shrunk, but my car insurance dropped in half when I took him off my policy.

Counting down the days...

This is definitely do not identify as a conservative but I think this is not a good idea. Most of the anti trans agenda of the GOP is stupid because this doesn't affect the cis people at all so why not stay out of that discussion but really in this case trans women or intersexual women and cis women should not compete together because there are distinct biological advantages.

This is something gender science gets wrong because unlike their claim the physiological differences are not caused by the mental state and education but by actual chemicals in the body.

This is also not really about "fairness" but simply about a level playing field. A level playing field is really what makes sports intriguing. If a team wins 90% of his games it becomes boring and people switch off the t.v. because nobody wants to see a beatdown.

So this is not really about fairness but about keeping an interesting competition, just like weight classes in boxing were created to create a good competition.

I have no issue with a person identifying as a woman or man but in an athletic competition it just creates too big of an advantage.

@Go44dad posted:

You want no part of a riseball from 39 feet.

the problem is there are already men doing fastpitch to levels Jenny Finch never could comprehend. Search ISF and ISC fastpitch if you care, you also could do a search of Mike White former Oregon coach and current Texas softball coach and check out his pitching history...men playing vs women is silly at competitive levels.

@Smitty28 posted:

Not only has the grocery bill shrunk, but my car insurance dropped in half when I took him off my policy.

Having teenage sons is the best portion control diet I know of and there is literally no opportunity for me to snack. I started a "car insurance" savings fund in preparation for the kid's license in 6 weeks. So no food and soon no car for me. My dream of looking like a marathon runner may be a reality in 2021. 

@old_school posted:

the problem is there are already men doing fastpitch to levels Jenny Finch never could comprehend. Search ISF and ISC fastpitch if you care, you also could do a search of Mike White former Oregon coach and current Texas softball coach and check out his pitching history...men playing vs women is silly at competitive levels.

I appreciate the advice, but no thanks on the research assignment.  My shallow, off-hand comment earlier in the thread was an attempt at levity, nothing more. All I was saying is you don't want any of Jenny Finch, not that men were better, or women were better, or men dressed as women were better. (Sorry, no offense to women dressed as men or any other gender combos I missed).

@Dominik85 posted:

This is also not really about "fairness" but simply about a level playing field.

This order is not about fairness, it's about pandering to a specific group.

I can't believe I just read 3 pages of this.....what a world we live in

Wonder if this truck could get some pandering??? After all it's 2021.

@Dominik85 posted:

This is definitely do not identify as a conservative but I think this is not a good idea. Most of the anti trans agenda of the GOP is stupid because this doesn't affect the cis people at all so why not stay out of that discussion but really in this case trans women or intersexual women and cis women should not compete together because there are distinct biological advantages.

This is something gender science gets wrong because unlike their claim the physiological differences are not caused by the mental state and education but by actual chemicals in the body.

This is also not really about "fairness" but simply about a level playing field. A level playing field is really what makes sports intriguing. If a team wins 90% of his games it becomes boring and people switch off the t.v. because nobody wants to see a beatdown.

So this is not really about fairness but about keeping an interesting competition, just like weight classes in boxing were created to create a good competition.

I have no issue with a person identifying as a woman or man but in an athletic competition it just creates too big of an advantage.

You threw the grenade into the middle of the room. So let’s go. It’s unfortunate your self esteem is so low you have to establish your political identity rather than just stand by your opinion on the discussion.

On a political level I’m a small l libertarian. On a personal level I live conservatively. Most conservatives I know are small l libertarians.

So, just what is stupid about conservative views? Be specific. If you’re going to insult posters in the forum back it up.

@old_school posted:

the problem is there are already men doing fastpitch to levels Jenny Finch never could comprehend. Search ISF and ISC fastpitch if you care, you also could do a search of Mike White former Oregon coach and current Texas softball coach and check out his pitching history...men playing vs women is silly at competitive levels.

As I posted earlier Finch throws 68-72. Male softball pitchers average 95. At 95 from 43 feet the hitter is guessing location of the anticipated pitch.

I remember seeing a video of some MLB hitters facing Finch in a cage. They were overwhelmed. I believe it’s mostly due to not being accustomed to the angle of the pitch coming off the hip. Given time they would adapt. The MLB hitters probably would have been afraid to stand in against a male softball pitcher throwing 95 given they had trouble picking up 70 from 43 feet.

RJM, you've posted extensively in the past about the culture of women's softball teams.  I'm curious what your daughter thinks about this, since she played high-school and college softball?

@anotherparent posted:

RJM, you've posted extensively in the past about the culture of women's softball teams.  I'm curious what your daughter thinks about this, since she played high-school and college softball?

I haven’t spoken with her since the executive order was signed this last week. Given she’s now 32 she doesn’t give a lot of thought to softball.

We discussed the possibility when I visited over the holidays. She’s a prosecutor. She’s trained to look at issues from all angles. Her initial, face value reaction is it’s absurd. She pointed out what I’ve posted earlier. The typical top male softball pitcher throws 25 mph faster than the greatest female softball pitcher ever. For fitness and self defense she trains as a kick boxer. She sees males competing against females in physical situations as absurd.

As a prosecutor of violent crimes she’s had her share of death threats. She’s been trained if attacked, extract and run to safety. Don’t stand and defend against a man.