Milb can't afford to pay players minimum wage

Actually, that is exactly what the contract does. The players waive their rights to the disability component of WC. Are the players advised? Of course. Can they object? Of course. Can they not sign that contract addendum? Yes - and take the bus back home. Legal? Who knows; no one has the power and money to litigate the issue.

While it looks like we share similar views on many of the issues under discussion, I guess we will end up on opposite sides of this one. I know and have done work with the law firm which handles workers' compensation issues for MLB and MILB in California.  I have never heard them take this position in any workers' compensation matter filed by a MLB or MILB player in CA.  My perspective is MLB knows a provision of that type would be unlawful in CA. and in many States.  MLB wants the protection of WC so the players, especially MILB players, cannot sue them for negligence in either causing or treating their injuries.

The issue of whether a player can lawfully waive the disability aspects for a work related baseball injury is easily litigated.  While my practice is almost 100% devoted to representing and advising employers about  work injury issues, I would take that case in a heartbeat and feel 100% confident I would prevail in CA. if MLB or MILB attempted to argue the player lawfully "waived" their rights to any workers' compensation benefits.

Infield - I agree wholeheartedly with your analysis; it seems to be against public policy to be permitted to waive the protections of WC.

 

For clubs whose ST is based in Arizona. the contract specifically chooses Arizona law, and then waives the disability protections - the medical provisions are not waived.

 

We all know that contracts may contain provisions which are unenforceable due to public policy considerations and we also know that where a financially disadvantaged party cannot afford to head off to get a court order (won after enormous expense), it's tough luck. Because a class action may not be certified on this issue (because each player has a unique injury, because causation is different for each player, etc), it's a single player against the entire system. Classic use of overwhelming bargaining power used to circumvent public policy.

 

And because most of these types of injuries would not be completely debilitating, the disability percentage would not be total (and therefore make such a challenge even less economical to pursue). Now, if a player died or was permanently  crippled by, for example, being hit with a pitch, the stakes go way up. Perhaps that would be the incentive to pursue a case. To make it specific, what would Corey Hahn (a personal hero of mine) be entitled to had he suffered his injury while in proball? To MLB the answer is clear, medical costs, but nothing more.

 

Not it that it matters, but I also submit that 18 - 23 year olds are not steeped in knowledge about choice of law, waiving rights, or even the intricacies of workers compensation. They just want to play ball. That overwhelming desire allows MLB to tread so close to the public policy line - and over in these cases.

I have to agree with this, each time my son had been on the DL, he was considered on workers comp. He would always receive a sheet, asking specific questions and informing him of his rights, nowhere did I ever see anything about waiving that right. After he went back on the roster, he did receive another paper asking other pertinent questions. 

 

Goosegg,

Is your son employed by MLB?

 

 

The only milb players who may get really nice money (whatever that is considered) in free agency are former ML players. They get paid well for their experience to pass on and as mentioned become organizational guys.

 

Going to another team isn't going to make anyone more money, but what will is whether he has ever been on the highest rung of the ladder.  Or if you made it to AAA. That's why teams are so reluctant to place older milb free agents on the 40.

The impression I got from sons experience was as a free agent, you may be paid a bit more, but you are not the guy that the team has invested $$ in for many years. You will get passed over for someone else who was drafted by the team, most of the time. 

 

That's why many go play in other places, some get paid a lot more than even first year ML players. As a player gets older, has more responsibilities, it becomes more about the money. 

I owe a mea culpa to those following this thread on an issue I asserted about workers comp. it appears that the players only waive jursdiction to file in certain states And agree to a choice of law provision. There is no waiver of any substantial rights either to medical or disability claims.

 

I am so sorry about my misinformation. I should learn to read better.

Now that most of the legal discussion had died down somewhat, shouldn't these guys be getting a little bit more so they can buy fresh ground chuck instead of buying hamburger in the 5 lb tubes?  Wouldn't MLB get some of the heat turned down if they threw out a few extra dollars and maybe a few mandatory perks (maybe increased per diem and a spring training stipend).  Forget the exact numbers but I think I remember seeing that if the 1990 MiLB salaries were simply adjusted for inflation these guys would get 50%+ raises (gross ballpark figures - just remember it was a big jump during the time period cited).  I'm not talking about a union with lots of new benefits and I'm not talking about a wage that you can support a family on (or even a wife for that matter), but some reasonable adjustment.  If no adjustment today, then when would an adjustment be appropriate?  Are the current salaries just supposed to continue at the same level indefinitely?

       
       
When do I get to stop buying the 5lb. Tubes?

Players get stipends in spring training and for meals on the road plus meals at the field. Free health care year round and yearly raise within their organization.
If this is what you want to do, you makeit work. If youhave issues, give the opportunity to someone else.

Every time I read about this "issue" I am pulled back in time to think about the days where immigrants fought hand over fist to be barely paid and work in an unsafe environment...and why....because there were 100 other immigrants who would have loved to risk their lives for the chance at a quarter a day.

 

Supply and demand folks...they can pay them what they want to pay them because every year there are thousands of hopefuls that would gladly take their place at half the cost.

Response of the day. Contest over. You win the Internet.

Interesting comment.  So when you read "The Grapes of Wrath" we're you thinking that Tom Joad should have kept his mouth shut and counted his blessings?

 

This is why unions are a necessity to counteract pure capitalism. Allowing industry to take advantage of a flooded work force is the kind of situation that led to the rise of communism in the first half of the twentieth century. Paying people slave wages "because you can," is unacceptable.

Well there may be un-drafted players waiting in the wing and eager to play, but I doubt that enough of them are of the quality that your average round 11 - 40 pick to just whole sale replace them as a group.  The thousands waiting in the wings certainly not of the quality that your average top 10 rounder is. Otherwise the signing bonuses for those folks wouldn't be so high.

 

In general, It's not about supply and demand because MLB gets to distort the labor market.   They get to set salaries as a cartel.  In addition,  the laborers have restricted mobility.   And they have no right to collectively bargain. 

 

Again, if the players had the right to collectively bargain on their own behalf and the right to withhold their services through strikes and especially if the well off bonus babies felt any labor solidarity with those that sign for peanuts, you would see a whole different economic landscape in an instant.   The current economic landscape is not like a state of natural competition,  It's made possible only by the combination of Anti-trust exemption and exemption from  the fair  wage and labor standards act and also by the fact that only union that bargains for anything on behalf of minor league players is the mlb players association which basically sells them down the river to keep more of the total dollars flowing to the major league players. 

 

Of course, one argument is that  minor leaguers come and go because there's a new crop of players drafted every year and many players released every year.  So the tenure especially of a non-prospect is often brutally short.  But the same is true of the NFL -- where the average career is just 3.5 years, I think.  Lots of turnover.  That doesn't stop them from having an effective union.  

We keep forgetting this is not a career it is a internship really.  Some interns are paid poorly some are nit paid at all.  It is an opportunity.   The grapes of wrath analogy is simply not valid.  Minor leaguers choose their position.  They could take a pass and go get a regular job.  I just don't understand the angst here.  I would root for tom joad's life to get better and I wish all minor leaguers could someday be big leaguers making millions.  But that is not reality.  By the way the grapes of wrath was so boring as to be almost unreadable!  And this from a history teacher!

Let's stick with the internship analogy for sake of discussion.  Do you believe the internship "stipend" for MiLB players in 2015 is too high, too low or just right.  I believe it is too low.  I believe it should be raised 50% so the guy getting $1,100/mo now gets $1,650/mo.  Won't make anyone rich but would make daily life a little more tolerable and allow these kids to focus on baseball.  May sound like some huge raise, but it would get their annual compnesation up from $5,500/yr to $8,250/yr assuming a 5 month season.

 

Keep in mind that a reasonable MLB team salary is $100 million per year with the lowest being $70 million (two teams exceed $200 million).  Total MLB salaries in the $2 billion range.  Adding $15 million or so would equate to around one-half of one percent.  The argument against this would be that the current compensation is adequate to live on and that it does not preclude folks from taking on the challenge, or dropping out, simply because they are going broke.  Also, I am changing my previous food analogy to now upgrading from ramen noodle to the 5 lb tube of hamburger.  Fresh ground chuck is apparently too upscale for this argument. 

What I think and what is reality are not the same things.  If any MiLB player objects there are a thousand guys waiting to take their place.

 

As for the quality of the waiting player being lower...yeah I remember 22 umpires thinking they were irreplaceable too back in 1999

 

Actually, setting aside for the moment MLB's Anti-trust exemption, MiLB does not come close to meeting the definition of an internship. To be legally considered an internship (unpaid or paid less than minimum wage) you can only be doing work under supervision that would otherwise be done by the supervisor. For example, in my field of law, it's quite common for law students and those just out of law school to intern with firms, the D.A.'s office, Public Defender's, etc. As an unpaid intern, they can't do work that would otherwise have to be done by a paid emplyee. They can take a case under supervision, but that is work that the supervisor would ordinarily have done. In other words, you can't fill your work force with unpaid interns. Not saying it isn't otherwise done, though. There are plaenty of comapanies that find ways to work around the law.

It does not matter how many are willing to take a MILB players place. Each and every year this site has postings about very, very good players who were not drafted.

The issue involved is MLB drafted/invited these players to be their employees. These players are considered to be the very best.

The point of the lawsuit is to do a couple of things:

1.) challenge the ability of MLB to collude and pay every player the same amount for each year they are with the team over a period of 6 championship seasons,

2.) determine if MLB is properly classifying and paying their players as employees under applicable wage and hour laws.

The example of the 22 umpires is a clear example of how MLB will implement strategies to "crush" those who don't have economic strength, including strength through a union. (Anyone who watched the Nats/Giants game on ESPN last night saw  and heard clear evidence of how a union protects an umpire who impacts a game.)

The lawsuit which is the subject of this thread is the only realistic way for MLB to be challenged on the power they have and use everyday with their workforce of MILB players.

I have no idea whether the lawsuit will have a favorable or unfavorable result for the players or MLB.   I certainly believe in the right of the MILB players and former players to ask the legal questions on whether they are being properly classified by MLB and properly paid by MLB.

For me, at least, this is an intriguing discussion.  A few years back on this site, MLB owners and the commissioner ( and many MLB players)  were not held in very high esteem because of the way it was felt many/most/all looked the other way at PED's in order to fill seats, generate excitement and fill their bank accounts.

Now, MLB owners have very full bank accounts but yet MILB players are viewed pretty much with disdain, by comparison,  for attempting to ask valid legal questions about their pay and the way they are classified by MLB as employees.

The same folks who were villains on PED's seem to be "saints" compared to the MILB players, who are little more than a gnat on the butt of an elephant, from an economic perspective.

I have been under the impression we are exchanging opinions as to.whether it is ok for minor leaguers to be paid like they are or if they are getting screwed.  I definitely don't see that they are getting screwed.  But if you change that conversation to do they have a right to sue or unionize or whatever.  Of course they do.  That is within the scope of law in our society.  To me these are two different conversations.

I am not sure whether anyone disagrees with the fact that milb players should be paid more money.

I am not sure why a mom of a 13 year old who really doesn't understand the legality of it all be given a sermon on the evils of MLB. I always think people should form their own opinions when the have someone who has been in the system.  My beef was never with the lack of money but rather the lack of attention given to medical issues. If you don't take care of that, the player will never move forward.

Its mind boggling to me how people get upset over this but if they get hurt, they walk away not understanding their rights.  

I got a great idea, how about everyone gets a merit raise each year..maybe a bonus in the fall.  After 5-6 years that milb player should waljk away with a nice pocketful of change, right?

 

Anyway, the long of the short of it is that if the terms are unacceptable, then don't accept. They even tell you that on draft day when they call you with an offer.

 

This is a great experience for any young man.  The pay is crap but what most players will earn more in an education on big business, goals, hard work, and developing a contact list that may someday be worth its weight in gold.

YOU ARE SOOO WRONG!!!!  He's still 12

Amazing 7 months of discussion. Just sent a link to my own LHP so he can bone up on both the socio-economic and legal/governance issues in his chosen sport before he heads to his first year of college ball. This particular forum ought to be mandatory reading for hs b-ballers looking to go on...wow.

TPM,

I agree with much of what you post on the HSBBW and truly understand the value you have added for so many. 

On this topic, we have some disagreement. If you think I provided a sermon to the Mother of a 12/13 year old, so be it.  We both had son's play in Milb. Mine was not a top pick and that provides some perspectives different from yours, I think. As the thread progressed I also left out other  differences such as the club our son played with did not provide housing, etc. Players were left to their own resources and pocketbook. Some players got shafted as a result when rent came due and 2 or 3 of the guys who were in the apartment on the 1st of last month are not on the 1st of this month, either due to promotions, injuries  or releases.

Helping others who post here and come behind us to better understand life on and off the field in Milb is why I would even post in this thread.  Telling others who come behind us to "take it or leave it" is not a message I support.  Not sure why you decided to classify my response to CaCo as a sermon but it won't dissuade me from having a different perspective  from yours on this topic.

I didn't see your post as a sermon.  I would like to see more of your posts than TPM's style of judgmental posts.  

 

Anyone who has worked as a salary employee in a right to hire/right to fire state (like Texas) knows the leverage employers hold over their employees.  Especially those with families and one income. 

Infielddad,

I wasn't directing my post just to you. I just think that she took a lot of heat and I believe she is giving her opinion.  I think its very hard to understand. You and I have known each other for a long time and have lots of stuff we have shared which would turn heads! 

 

I also have tried for many years to give a good accounting of life as a milb player.  Not so much from a second round pick but as a player, regardless of how much they received at signing but life in general in the minors.

 

A good point that you make is that there is a big difference in teams and how a player is treated.  I was surprised when a parent here whose son plays on a team was given peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for lunch.  And this team spares no expense for their MLB salaries.  This wasn't the only time that I had heard something like this.  So I know and understand the plight of the lack of salary for milb players.

However, I have never found that as shocking as the drunken or drugged room and teammates. Coming to the field hungover, not being able to field a ball because you partied all night.

I think perhaps that is much more of a problem than lack of funds.  Maybe there is a reason they don't pay them that much.

While this is a worthwhile discussion, I believe not much will change, so why not just help folks to understand how players can maximize what they have in order to survive.

Lol...I was giving him a few months in advance.

What appears on the surface to be a straightforward discussion of MiLB salaries has morphed into a much deeper discussion which I personally appreciate.  Whle I am not a fan of the "take it or leave it" argument, I get the impression now that money issues oftentime take a back seat to bigger picture issues.  Seems now that if the biggest problem a MiLB player has is having to ask Mom/Dad for an allowance, then that is probably a good thing.  Thank you TPM for hammering on your point - even if it appears at times you think MiLB is not underpaid.  I have the luxury of sitting back and throwing out opinions without ever having lived through the experience - then folks who have lived through the experience come on and provide truly enlightening posts.  For foplks reading this thread, I'd recommend reading each post carefully and maybe read between the lines carefuly also.  I think TPM has fired a nice shot over the bow to wake folks up and possibly give them a truer appreciation for the MiLB lifestyle.  Kind of adds some weight to the argument of having your kid go to college unless they are ready to hand over a really big pot of gold - after reading this thread I guess my definition of big just got a little bigger.

Texas Crude,

 

Not sure where you are getting all that information, but it sure isn't true with every player.  The last sentence is very confusing.  I think sometimes people make things sound as bad as possible in order to make a point.  

 

This topic is about the small amount of money players earn monthly.  Things like living conditions can be very different from one organization and location than the next.  Other than the money and difficult life style, most minor league players are treated very well IMO.  And for the most part each year it gets better if you're moving up the ladder.

 

For sure, it's not easy, but somehow there are people that portray it as much worse than it really is. No doubt things could improve and be made better, but I for one will never feel sorry for anyone who has played or will play professional baseball. They have something that most people will never experience.  Actually the same thing is true about college baseball.  BTW, that's not easy either.

I just love this quote.  Sums up MLB's attitude in a nutshell.  Personally, I find it appallingly self-serving.  And to those who say minor leaguers should just take it or leave it, I say -- really?  Are you serious?  You really think these guys are only on duty when the game is on?

 

I really applaud what they are trying to do. And I think their treatment by mlb is utterly appalling.   But hey, I'm a labor oriented guy who grew up in a union household. 

"It’s not a factory job,” Yund said, arguing that players should be paid only for actual game time. “What they’re doing is an adventure, which could turn into a lucrative career.”

I saw the post too but now it is gone, I never heard of that either (taking away 20% if they dont negotiate a salary). There is nothing to negotiate, but raises are given. Also they get pretty decent meals as they move up the ladder. And once again a lot depends on the team ownership, many ML teams do not own their affiliates.

 

Also there is really nothing wrong with the free health care given, it is a BC/BS PPO plan snf my son used  cobra at $53.00 a month for the full 18 months.

 

I have to say that I really do not feel sorry for any American born player who is in the professional game.  They have choices. I feel badly for the latin player that has most of his signing bonus taken away and because of the culture they live in many teens are dads. That means that there is a family to support. And what they do is send most of their paycheck home. Last year son was with the Tigers, he lived with 2 latins, it was more or less to help them out, cutting down their costs on their living expenses.

They are a happy group and they never complain. I think that is why so many do make it farther than americans, they don't let distractions ruin their determination.

 

2017,

I do strongly feel that milb players are underpaid.  I realize that this can be a legal issue, but the long of the short of it, there are so many that would play for nothing, despite what is right or wrong.  The lack of salary is a very big issue when a player signs, because they have to understand the implications of having to maybe depend on others while they chase their dream. While my son did get some pretty nice money to sign, much of it is still in tact. Which means that for most of the years since 2007 he learned to budget.

 

If you ever have any questions do not hesitate to ask.

Good living conditions, bad living conditions, good food, bad food, adventure, or not - all irrelevant.

 

Being paid the legally mandated federal minimum wage is all that matters.

 

Here's the analysis: (1) are the employees being paid the minimum mandated wage. If not, (2) is there a statutory exemption. If there is no statutory exemption, MLB loses to those players not making minimum wage.  If MLB loses, it will pony up past due wages, plus the statutory penalty. (The other peripheral issues, like when does the worker clock in and out, how much to pay for travel time, etc., have been decided and settled for years within the context of other employer/employee cases.)

 

I assume the issue is so emotional because we focus on baseball here. If we were to change the career to something else which may be fun, adventurous, etc., would there even be a debate about paying the legislatively mandated minimum wage?

 

Paying minimum wage is a decision SOCIETY (through the legislative process) has made. Employers cannot simply ignore this decision because it feels (or we feel) the job is fun and coveted by many (coveted yes, doable by those who covet it, not so much). It doesn't matter even if an employee has choices - whether to accept or look for another job; all that matters is that a certain wage is the minimum - anything over that is subject to negotiation or "take it or leave it."

Does your son professional ball?

Goosegg,

I am not any expert in wage and hour laws (we have quite a few laws in CA. so it is more than a challenge to know even 50% of them ) but have read a fair amount about the position of the players (class) in the lawsuit and the position of MLB.

My impression is one of the issues raised by MLB, as part of its defense, is that, as professional athletes, the players are "exempt." This would mean they are "exempt" from the wage and hour laws as they relate to payment at or above the minimum wage and for overtime pay.

I believe there is also an argument that MILB is similar to "seasonal" work and also exempt Federal wage and hour laws. There are a number of other defenses, also.

Unless and until there is a resolution of all of the issues in contention, including each of the above and the anti-trust exemption, I think it is premature to say there is a violation of law by the current payments to MILB players, and that MILB players must receive the legally mandated federal minimum wage,  which is  how I read your last post.

.

I am unaware of any federal "professional athlete" exemption. But I know the MLB would love to have one and indeed MILB has hire a lobbyist to try to gain such a federal exemption - covering all of MILB employees (why? I have no clue since MLB pays the players.)

 

The anti-trust lawsuit/defense is not applicable for wage claims; I thought that allows MLB to operate as a cartel and fix wages without fear of anti-trust issues. But the wages fixed are still subject to minimum wage laws.

 

The seasonal exemption (originally inserted into the law to protect summer camps and amusement parks) is the core of MLB defense. (And MLB asserts many many others.) Some analogous cases have gone in favor of the employee; other less analogous cases have gone the other way. The original seasonal exemption was agreed upon so summer camps could actually avoid paying their counselors overtime for being on duty 24/7 during the season. And, the seasonally exempt employees (life guards, ski instructors, etc.) are not under contract for years; at the end of their seasons, those pepole could get unemployment compensation, whereas players cannot [at least in California]).

 

I didn't mean to dismiss the rest of the legal defenses asserted; just meant to hone in on the fulcrum. As it is, MLB has been able to split the cases - I believe MLb teams without sufficient presence in California have won their motion to move their cases to Florida, thereby succeeding in splitting the cases and making it more expensive to pursue (and defend; but MLB doesn't yet care about defense costs). (And get their case before the Circuit with the most favorable case - one involving a groundskeeper for an milb club.)

 

Did not mean to convey that this was a slam dunk; just meant to cut to the heart of the matter. Unless MLB caves, it's a long expensive process with an uncertain end. If, however, the players win, their lawyers and EVERY minor league player impacted will get a chunk of change.

Goosegg,

third time, do you have a son who plays professional ball?

What my son does or doesnt do for his living is irrelevant.

 

TPM, which classes did you take in high school. How did you do? Did you finish college? What did you major in? What was your GPA? Are you a lawyer who is capable of analyzing the lawsuit and defenses? are you a member of toastmasters? a literary society?  What is your formal training to craft an argument?

 

My gosh, this is a thread of anonymous posters. Our qualifications are for each to know and share as we see fit. Readers can take and ignore as each sees fit. But, you love attacking the messenger rather than the message. Why is that?

 

Oh, and my questions are posed for the first time. I'll be glad to continue to keep posting them until you respond. But until you reveal your educational background, your grades, your class standing, and the rest, you must be lacking the basis to speak to anonymous boards.

 

Now you can continue the food fight you started - and not for the first time in history, mind you.

Well I am not an anonymous poster. I do not hide behind a name.

But here ya go.

I took college prep courses in HS. I didn't do as well as I should.  I went to college and graduated as a teacher. Taught for many years, I then went on to take business classes but didn't get my graduate degree. I also have a license in real estate and own a marketing company with my husband, but I also work in sales, need that for health insurance. I have two kids, one who has played college ball as well as professional. Do you need his name?

I also am happy to answer any questions asked of me and have since I joined this site when my son was in HS.

Your turn....do you have a son who plays professional ball? Yes or no is acceptable.

All I did was ask a simple question, yes or no, didnt ask a name, just a curious question, and yes it is relevant to the conversation, IMO.