Milb can't afford to pay players minimum wage

       
       
I take it while I was away at our shutout victory today (insert yoohoo here) there was somebody who has since been deleted?  I like this post by PG.  To me it seems to sum it all up.  I have no issue with a thread going on in perpetuity but I just don't really understand what more we are going for?

At this point and time, I don't have skin in the game, but I hope to in the future.  However whether or not you played, have a son in, or out of the minors doesn't really matter.  The attorneys who will argue these cases probably didn't even play baseball.  Why are they qualified to fight the battle? Simple. Because it is a labor dispute.  I have enjoyed the arguments.  For and against.  From the little I know on the subject, I believe the players should make more. The Major League Teams are constantly throwing STUPID money at Major Leaguers, Latin Free Agents, etc.  I don't think it would hurt to bump the minor players $500.00 more or so per month.  

No skin in the game here either, but give 2017 another 20 mph and watch out.  Give him only 10 mph more and who knows - he might be a guy used to throw BP.

 

I get the impression that MiLB clubs are generally well liked in the community and folks would prefer that their team not be eliminated altogether.  On the flip side, no one can quite explain how MLB/MiLB gets away with the low base salaries (i.e. $1,100/mo).  I'm granting everyone who wants one a one-time magic wand that can be used solely to construct a new compensation program in the MiLB.  Given that wand, what is your solution to maintaining the current team structures while getting MiLB players a wage that conforms to existing laws (wand cannot make legislative changes).

 

Alternatively, has anyone heard of any interesting solutions proposed by the industry?  I suspect that the lawsuit claims are maxed out (probably argue that an MiLB player is on call 24/7 and should get paid close to $100K/yr when accouting for the 6,000 hours of overtime).  Any comments on what the logic was back in the 70's when the minimums got set (they probably looked like a decent amount at that point in time) and why MLB simply let them stay essentially flat for 40 years (albeit with a small increase)? 

 

Specific question about bonuses - I was told that bonuses used to be payable over two years but that was changed back to being paid in one lump sum.  What drove this change?  Did it have to do with big time bonuses paid on major leauge contracts?  A related question - how does the lawsuit treat bonuses?  Suppose players were to win - would some guy that got a $50k bonus have the bonus pro-rated over the assumed hours (and thus have him exceed minimum wage) or are bonuses carved out and not considered compensation (kind of like tips - although employer is apparently supposed to make sure tip income gets the employee to the minimum wage or is responsible for grossing up their pay - and summarily firing them for poor service). 

 

I've enjoyed reading everyone's opinions on fairness as well as everyone's opinions on governing law (and opinions on what certain laws require) but am interested people's opinions in how this matter is going to get settled.  Realize it will drag out for some time but I do think discussing possible solutions might be interesting.  Please share your thoughts if you would like and limit your criticisms of other folks suggestions as I am sure it has already been criticized somewhere in the previous 5 pages..

Before people take advantage of the magic wand being offered, I have a question.  During the "off-season" are MiLB players eligible to receive unemployment?

No

I don't know if they could collect unemployment or not....but earning at that level they would not be collecting enough to matter.  

This whole thing is a bit of a rip off....baseball organizations hold all the cards.  If you want a shot at the big dream (illusion?) then you are going to take a plate full of crap and smile about it.  You want to do something different outside the org standard for training? See ya.  You are injured? See ya.  You have family commitments/issues? See ya. 

I would describe minor league baseball the same way I would describe JC baseball....a meat grinder.  

I have heard that getting work off season was often necessary but difficult given the need for continued training.  What can a newbie MiLB player expect to make during the winter months if he were to maintain a casual schedule of instruction?  Also, what percentage (very rough estimate) of teams assist in lodging arrangements?  25%? 50%?  Would it be feasible for 100% of teams to faciliate lodging or are there some instances where this would simply not be workable?  Thinking something like team leases rooms and then rents them out weekly/monthly to help with the fluidity of players - assume the big bonus guys may go out and find some "nicer" place.  Almost starting to sound like company housing - maybe the could start paying them in company script and make them shop at the company store???

Hockey minor league players are represented, so, they have their housing provided by the club.  MLB minor leaguers have no such luck.  

The pay in minimal, there (generally) is no housing provided, the team may put dietary requirements on players (lose weight, gain weight etc) but provide pathetic per diems for food when traveling....or "dinner" will be provided by the host club....cold hot dogs and soda.  Looking at the parking lot at the local AAA club the parking lot is a funny mix.  A $100,000 BMW parked next to a beater with a side door held shut by duct tape.  Its a mixed bag for sure.  Most high school drafted players will have conditions in their deal to pay for college, that is a good thing.  

The message to players coming into to minor leagues should be loud and clear. The team does not care about you, either as a player or a person.  Unless they have made a large financial investment in you as a high round pick you are just more fodder for the cannons.  A few will emerge, most will be crushed.  Have a back up plan.  

I don't understand the comparison to JC baseball...

I live in Boise, and we have a short season A Team.  These players are provided with Host Families for the season. Not sure what percentage offer this, but a lot of the host families will provide a car for the player to use, a place to do laundry, and food for the player.  Although I believe the player should get more money, it sounds like some are exaggerating the plight of these players.

So, an organization that is worth hundreds of millions of dollars, maybe a billion (assuming the A team is affiliated) relies on "host" families to provide a room and laundry for players?  Thats pathetic.  I know Cape Cod league does the same....it is probably pretty common for college summer leagues as well.  

I have known a couple of guys who spent plenty of time in the minors in different organizations.  One was a first round draft pick and the other was an undrafted invite.  Obviously, they were treated differently.  Both said the low rookie ball thru high A conditions were just sad.  A lot of guys not really being able to live at all. A little better above that.  

No comparison in terms of baseball obviously.  The mentality can be the same.  In my experience (just mine and other folks I know) the coaching in JC is bad.  The don't develop players....for two reasons probably.  First, they probably are not good enough coaches and they know they have guys for a couple of years max.  Players look at it, generally, as a stepping stone.  Coaches want to win, so, they don't give a toss about development.  It is about recruitment.  So, have 4 open spots in a rotation and having 45 pitchers trying out is not unusual, most of them saying they were "recruited".  

A school without time, skill or resources to develop players are going to massively recruit.  An MLB team sort of takes the same approach.  Shove as many into the top of the meat grinder and hope something edible comes out the other end.  

I tell high school kids the same thing whether they are talking to college recruiters or pro scouts....they don't care about you.  They will wax on to the next guy same as they are to you.  They are (in terms of recruiters/coaches anyway) used car salesman.  The last game you play solely for fun is in high school. 

If you want to try and make a career out of it then go in with open eyes.  Watch out for yourself because no one else will.  

Big numbers of hopefuls being sold largely a bunch of BS.  The meat grinder. 

Personally, I would rather they provide me a host family and give me more money in lieu of providing me housing.  I also think the host family situation would provide a good experience for the player. 

I am sure that all situations are different and lumping all situations into the same category is futile IMHO.  I am sure JC baseball is just like any other level of baseball.  There are some really good coaches, and some that aren't really good. 

....Which is why I said in my experience....I figured that would imply I was not speaking about all situations. 

If a kid is going to ask my opinion I am going to be honest with them.  There is a whole industry that based on selling nonsense to kids regarding baseball and their future in it.  

All athletes should realize they are meat and with few exceptions interchangeable parts.  They can be rock stars and get paid a lot more than normal folks but it doesn't last long and most are totally unprepared to make it last a lifetime. 

 

Baseball's system is slightly different than Football.  In Baseball it is still a Plantation at the MiLB level.  Players are effectively sharecroppers that are hanging on by a fingernail and hope to make it someday.  Unlike Sharecropping - some of them actually do.  And for those that do it is the 2nd best career in sports behind the NBA although it can last longer.

 

Football which is the ultimate meat grinder and they are not much more than Gladiators.  Use your body up and when it breaks get discarded.  They cynical nature of the NFL is that ALL rookie contracts are 4 years in length and 1st rounders have a 5th at the teams option.  Ave Length of career 3.3 years.  It is designed so that a huge percentage never get to negotiate anything.

 

Bottom Line - These guys earn every single penny that they get.  All of them.  They generate Billions and some get paid millions.  I think that MiLB and NFL guys could and should do better than they get - but it won't change easily. 

Well said. 

If a guy is great/driven/lucky enough to get a nice contract in baseball that money is guaranteed.  NFL contracts are not.  It is sort of funny to see a guy sign a 5 year $90M deal in the NFL with $60M back loaded to the last two years....why even sign that deal when you won't see the last two years?  Maybe there is buy out language if the guy is cut? 

Plantation is a good description of the minors.  

Whether you stated in my experience or not, saying that JC coaches are bad is more of an opinion and not necessarily based on fact.  If JC coaching was so bad, why would big coaches have essentially feeder programs that they send kids to for development, and then constantly add players from those programs?  To me, if you would have said, "In my experience, most JC's do not offer good coaching." that would be much more sound.  As I stated, you lumped all JC's into one comment, and I never think that is a good idea.

On the players' cost side of their equation. 

 

The club provides uniforms. The player supplies cleats and gloves. For players cash strapped, their single pair of cleats gets pretty stinky as the season progresses; better off players have more shoes (an agent can help here). If you get traded, you need to buy a new pair of cleats if the color is wrong.

 

At the lower MILB levels, most clubs have "host family" options. But this is a term which connotes a soft fuzzy, all-providing, free experience. That may be true, but most likely not. At the collegiate level (think Northwoods and Cape) host families don't cost the player and may include a total commitment from the host family to care for the player for free (car, food, laundry, fishing, hunting, etc.).

 

In MILB, a host family is permitted to be paid. A maximum amount which can be charged (the club even handles the billing) is set; the host family is not required to collect that, but most do (there are very real costs in housing a player). I believe it is somewhere around $300 per month. It may include a car, laundry, and food, it may not. Because host families tend to be repeaters, the new players have some pretty good Intel on the conditions offered by the host families. The players go into this with eyes open. I have heard of players getting single rooms, cars, food, and laundry - like home; conversely, I have heard (straight from the host mom) that players can be crammed into bedrooms in multiple bunk beds (though they ate well). Some families look to this as income supplements, others don't. It is a very individual experience - but most of the time not free. (IMO, nor should it be.)

 

Some clubs with affiliates in high cost areas (think New York) effectively subsidize their players by using converted motels and charge players less then the free market rents would garner - but the cost is still roughly $300.

 

For players who live in more "commercial" settings (short term rentals), expenses quickly exceed their available funds. A player rents month to month, pays first month and a damage deposit. If you are the sucker who signed the lease, you're on the hook when a roommate is traded or moved. The rent is what the rent is - a player can take it or leave it; some players live six in a two bedroom place; some live a bit better. Furnished/unfurnished, it's up to the player. Clubs have a person detailed to help and players also have the advantage of prior players Intel. The players always make it work - though a player may who is moved may be paying for multiple places. (Many times, the moved player's replacement will take the spot; but that's up to the replacement player.)

 

The player pays, when home, his "clubbie". The clubbie works his butt off in doing laundry and post-game snacks. The amount per day increases at each MILB level (I have heard that MLB players pay $200/day to their clubbies). What the clubbie does with the money varies - some try to not spend it all on the players (and keep the difference); others reach into their own pockets to supplement the food purchases. Some go to the local low end supermarket and make PBJ sandwiches; others make magic with the money. At the lowest end the clubbie fee starts at $5/day. I have heard of full blown fist fights breaking out over players taking more then their share of post game food. Many clubs bring their organization clubbies to spring training for clubbie training.

 

Some clubs bring the left over ball park food for the players to eat. That varies in quality, quantity, and nutritional value. Occasionally, an MLB player is rehabbing with an MILB club and that player generally buys food for the rest of the club. (Just saw a tweet about Phil Coke buying food for Stockton.)

 

On the road, players get a per diem beginning at $20/day. Eat hearty, fellows! Hopefully the motel where you sleep has a big breakfast. Where clubs decide to commute (up to 99 miles as the crow flies), no per diem. Don't eat hearty, fellows! Food is always an issue with the players - never enough good food at the lower levels.

 

Take the hypothetical low level MILB player (full season A and below): gets roughly $1,100 per month beginning the day he is assigned to his club. After mandatory deductions (FICA and Medicare) he has $1,000 left. $350 in rent, $100 to the clubbie (15 days at home for a month), gets $300 for road meals (ignoring the 99 mile situation). Player has $850 per month (less the rent deposit) to eat, gas, laundry, etc. Income taxes are zero - but unless the player increases his exemptions (increasing his take home pay), income taxes are in fact taken out (leaving a new can of worms - filing for a refund - to be addressed by his parents). The clubs give no advice on the exemption issue, and most players don't catch this the first years.

 

Can a player live on this; certainly. Can a professional athlete eat food which maximizes his productivity; no. Can a player have a beer to unwind after a game within this budget; certainly - every single Saturday nite.

 

The cost side of the equation is a matter not subject to any federal or state rules; players know or should know (or have access to the information) these issues and prepare for it.

 

Can a player work in the off season? Yes, so long as the work isn't prohibited by his contract (e.g. Sky diving instructor, and other risky endeavors). Many traditional employers would prefer not to hire someone who will be leaving in a few months; some will. I know a player who worked as a constructuon flagman in the offseason - very high paying job. Many work in the industry - lessons, travel ball coaches, etc., which provides them with money to live (not so much to save though).

 

Can a player get unemployment compensation? This is a state by state question. Each state has different rules on eligibility, amounts, conditions, etc. I believe that California will not give UC to a player under contract (though I don't know if that decision was a court or administrative decision). And the original draft contract extends for many years.

 

The cost side of the equation is what it is - some guys live cheap and save their per diem for the casino; others save their money to try to focus on eating better.

 

The compensation side of the equation is subject to (or not, if MLB fits in an exemption) minimum wage rules. 

 

 

 

 

 

No expert here on the labor law but doesn't the Anti Trust exemption factor into the contracts for MiLB?  I know the Standard MiLB contracts are designed and approved by MLB clubs and not open to negotiation so I am thinking it is a factor on the pay as well.

I dont get the comparison, maybe because I dont really think that you know how to compare proball to anything that you know.

So since you think that its a rip off, would you prevent your son from signing a contract to play professional ball?

 

TPM - I think everyone gets the trade off.  The chance to earn big money playing baseball and the slog you have to make to get there.

 

My perspective and I think it is shared by others is that it is too one sided in favor of baseball ownership and that is something that should change to be more equitable for the players.  Just because labor can be abused does not mean it should be or that it is acceptable when it is.

 

AA Minor League baseball franchises are worth upwards of $30 million.  Some quick math says the payroll of a AA team is about $200k for 25 players for 5 months at $1,500 a month.  Even a 50% bump makes the pay a whopping $10k per season and doesn't knock the owner of his/her tax bracket.

 

FWIW I find this to be a fascinating topic because it is actually one of the key issues facing our country today.  Wage stagnation - and that is what it is since MiLB pay has not changed very much for decades, is a national issue and will underscore a good portion of next years Presidential Election debate.  Each candidate will be presenting thier plan to "get the economy going".  In the end it amounts to getting more money in the pocket of people that are working for a living - including MiLB players.  Even if playing baseball isn't considered work.....

Not one person has brought up extended spring training.  This is made up of players not assigned to any team. That can be up to 2 months. Players get no salary, but room and board and a small per diem for a third meal.  

As an FYI and since I  am not afraid to mention ever that i had a player in professional ball, during short season he lived with a host family for 50 a week. Being a college player on his own for 3 years he hated it.  But because in the lower levels you can move up quickly and its only for a few months it works.

As far as I am aware, mlb is not involved with living accommodations but rather the team affiliates, if not owned by the parent team. 

BTW, if you get traded and need something, there is always a closet full of stuff when you arrive, of things left behind or shared by other players. And as I mentioned once before here on another topic, the local sports store will be more than happy to help you out, with or without an agent.

No doubt lots of planning and budgeting is needed, but from what I know, the local casino or bar will get your money. 

That's why you need to understand what's ahead, so that you can guide your player to make the best decision.

 

 

Its definetly one sided, even at the ML level.  

Affiliates do not pay salaries, and most are not owned by the parent team.  

 

Thius thread reminds me of the days (long time ago) when I was a struggling musician hoping to make it big. When I started, I worked in California which was a union state for musicians. There was a guaranteed nightly pay for any gig and you basically couldn't work if you weren't union. Then I moved to Nashville where there was no union. Rarely were bands paid to play in clubs. If you were paid it was very little. Everyone else lived off of the tip jar. Why? Because club owners there took advantage of all the talented musicians looking to "make it" in the booming country music industry and the law allowed them to. If you didn't want to play for free and expose yourself to those you needed to be seen by, there were two hundred guys and gals ready to take your spot. Of course, few make it and Nashville was littered in the early nineties with poor (sometimes homeless), but very talented musicians. The club business in Cali was just as strong even when they had to pay a decent wage to performers. Nashville businessmen could have done the same, but chose to keep profits maximum because the law allowed it.

The comparison is probably not a good one.  What I was comparing is the general approach of an organization filling a bunch of fodder players with nonsense. 

As for my son, it would depend.  The main thing with any player is to go into a situation with eyes open, thats all.  If he wanted to give it a shot knowing that he would not be compensated in any meaningful way and that he had virtually no chance of reaching his ultimate goal, sure, go have fun. 

While I fully agree MILB is tough both on and off the field, I wonder and would hope those reading this thread would not jump to the conclusion and start  equating the off the field to the actual playing experience.

Our son was a grinder and he loved everything about MILB from the time he arrived at the field until he left and from the time he showed up at ST (he went as early as they would let him in)  until the end of a 144 game season.

Some of this I think is how it gets viewed.  Before the draft, each player hoping to hear their name called is, in effect, trying out for 30 teams. Once drafted, you are really playing for one, but you are also playing to "impress" someone in that organization to believe in you and see a future. Our son immediately  knew many viewed him as an organizational guy. He also knew the scout who got him picked believed in him, a lot.

That scout was amazing and kept in touch to make sure he never got discouraged, knowing a 25th rounder was not moving ahead of the position guys picked higher.  After a short time in MILB and especially during his first ST, our's had the distinct impression coaches of the AAA team liked him.  He would find himself getting called to their games even though he was still not in the top 9 among his peers.  What made his impression so clear was when the assignments were made during the first days of April, and he was not assigned and would be staying in extended ST.

He was crushed. That was one long tough phone call.

Later that day, he learned from the AAA coach he was with them that day, be ready, and on the bus, which he was.  As they got close to Tampa Legends Stadium, he learned they would be facing future HOF'er Randy Johnson.  As he got off the bus, the AAA coach, who talked with him earlier, had a smile and told he to check the line up.

Yup, leading off against the future HOF'er was the former D3 kid who was not good enough to get an assignment with his peers to the A league.  After 3 AB's against Johnson and 6 innings at short, he was replaced and sat with the AAA coaches talking baseball for the rest of the game and bus ride back.  When they arrived, he "learned" there was some shuffling on the A league team assignment. Next thing he knew, he was on a team and packing for travel to Michigan.

But it was not just those AAA coaches who believed and clearly went to bat for him.

After about 15 games into the season, he had only a few AB's and only some late inning field work and pinch running, His coaches kept encouraging him but it was not easy. Game rosters are not the discretion of the team manager. They come from the very top,  the MILB director.

Well, one day the bus left for an away series at 9am. At 9am, the starting 2B was not on the bus but was running down the street toward it.  Manager told the bus driver to close the door and let's go, which happened. Starting 2B was left about 50 feet from the door to the bus.

That night, our son was in the line up, went 3-4 and then played 118 of the remaining 123 until what later proved to be a career ending injury occurred. He ended up leading his entire organization in hits for that season.

There was no doubt in his mind the Manager closed that bus door right at 9am because he could put a name in the line up which was not allowed from those above.

Grinder-sure.  However, in some organizations, a player drafted as an organizational type can create opportunities and have managers and coaches really battle for him.

Off the field is surely tough and not very fair in the overall huge $$$$ business MLB and MILB has become. 

Measured against that, the on field can be amazing. With  a very tough mind set, hard work, and talent, each combined with some luck and avoiding injury, grinders can open doors and opportunities and those are lessons they do not forget even when injury brings things, which seemed so bright at one point, to an end.

I have little doubt that one day our son will be sitting and telling our grandson about those AB's against a HOF pitcher. Would not surprise me if that conversation took place in a building in Cooperstown.  Our grandson is about 2 1/2 years old.  He proudly and firmly announced to his Grandparents on Monday "I am a baseball player!"

And so it starts....

Despite what you think, most players know exactly how it is after their first spring training. Most are more than willing to accept the challenge.

I would answer both of your points with "Of course."

Of course they know how it is after a spring trainging, that makes sense.  Of course most would accept the challenge....they are chasing the dream. 

Neither one of those things changes my mind they are being taken advantage of....to a certain degree. 

So be it.  It aint changing.  

Anybody know the record for longest thread ever?

Is it worth it? ABSOLUTELY!

 

i know half a dozen players (some no longer playing) who had accepted close to six figure jobs (straight out of college), get drafted (as seniors), and head off to play ball for $1,000 per month. For those whose careers are over (some through injury, others because they were released), not a one regrets the experience. For those still playing, their peers occasionally express amazement that the choice was to play ball; but for the boys who chose to play there was no serious contemplation to forego a shot at a life long dream.

 

There is plenty of time to head off to the "salt mines" of traditional work; there is little time to play ball. (And having "professional ball player" on a resume is a point of conversation in virtually every interview.)

 

Just because your employer abuses the system, doesn't at all detract from the fact that every pro ball player is a member of a very, very small community of kids who tasted the life of pro ball. Life is all about accumulating experiences; this is one of those experiences (IMO well worth it) - on and off the field.

In golden threads, "who is your son". 26 pages

       
       
Lol.  I guess this still has a way to go then!

I guess the 2B was clocked out by the manager and didn't get paid for the bus ride that day.

 

Great story!

That's a great story!  I really enjoyed reading it!  Thanks for posting!

Great story and experience. 

Infielddad,

 

I really enjoyed reading that story.  Your son was an excellent player, I saw him play in the MidWest League.  Didn't he make the all star game?

 

His playing days will not go unrewarded!  He knows things that most will never know And it will benefit him. And his experience will benefit others.

I can understand your comparison... I have heard of this in Juco ball having massive tryouts,  however it is not the case where my sons went to Juco. But I can see many similarities between low minors and Juco.  Food, Travel, Fields, coaches 

I think that MLB is making a Business on the back of Young Players.

Players salaries are going up but slower than MLB Revenue. http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs...mlbpa-has-a-problem/

 

Players salaries went down from 56% to under 40% in about a decade. Teams are now betting more on home grown Talent and less on free agency. that lowers the salaries because you can have Young Players for the Minimum for 3 years and 3 more years below market value.

 

added to that you can Keep Players in the minors for up to 5 years for an extremly low salary it means that Clubs can control Young Players for up to  8 years at least before paying them and more than 10 years before paying them a market salary. some Teams even Keep Players down a few weeks later to get another year of Minimum pay out of them.

 

MLBPA of course has allowed that (they rather protect the Veteran Players who tend to be overpaid (if they last that Long), but if Teams continue to Focus on Young Players MLBPA will Need to do something about that.