milb wages may be exempted by lobbyists

How about all the players drafted beyond the tenth round who don’t get a 100k signing bonus refuse to sign? 

Nothing would change. Baseball would just go find some players who are willing to be single A roster filler  while taking a long shot at the dream. 

SultanofSwat posted:

"allowing its clubs to pay players as little as $1,100 a month"

Boohoo. Remind me again how much college players make for doing the same job.

Actually an interesting point.  Many of them make $20k or more.  If you assume an out of state student at a $45k university getting a 1/3 scholarship that is $15k plus the incidentals probably pushing it up to $20k.  Then if you factor in the hours committed they probably earn significantly more than any low minor league player.  BTW at Michigan out of state tuition is over $60k and most are at $40-45.

Then there is the idea that College Sports might be one of the only other places that labor is abused MORE than in Milb - especially in Football and basketball.  Migrant workers would be the other group.

Dominik85 posted:
old_school posted:

You want make better money get promoted, or get real job. 

Supplu and demand dictates that MiLB players hold no value. It is that simple IMO

I don't agree. If you don't want to pay them  that is fine but then don't make them team controlled for 5 years and allow them free employer choice.

European soccer is capitalism but american sports is actually socialism (revenue sharing, draft, team control).

 

If mlb wants free demand and supply market get rid of team control and make everyone a free agent so you have to pay 20yo mike trout 50m per year.

But owners don't want that and have instead created a socialist system.

I'm open for teams having to pay minor leaguers nothing but then also don't have demands at them and let them sign with every team they want.

I mean google can also have unpaid interns, but they don't control the guy, if apple makes him an offer he is gone within a week.

Imo the very restrictive team control over players also means monetary responsibility, there are many low paid "minor leagues" in other industries but none of them controls the guy for a decade.

A minor league actor might not make anything either but if he gets an offer by Spielberg his former employer never sees him again.

If owners don't want to pay minor leaguers make minor leagues an independent league and make anyone a free agent. But don't keep them as slaves who can't change employer for half a decade.

If minor leaguers had no value teams should allow them to change franchise without getting anything back on a week's notice, shouldn't they.

 

 

This is a negotiated system with the MLBPA.  Marvin Miller understood that it was in the players interest that the game thrive and Free Agents trickle on the market rather than flood it.  

He understood that full free agency where every player being up for grabs after every season would create utter chaos and leave fans confused every season about who was on their team.  Instead he persuaded the players to the current system where the huge money is funneled to veteran players.  He also counted on guys like Steinbrenner to drive up salaries as revenue increased.  And that is exactly what happened.  I am not sure he would have been for revenue sharing and salary caps - but I doubt it.

I think going forward the players are going to want Free Agency sooner because without steroids the value of 30 year old players will not be what it has been.  31/32 year old players will not get 5/6 year contracts any longer.  They will get 1/2 year deals while clubs will continue to look to lock up promising 23-25 year olds on 5 year deals 2 years before they reach free agency.  The effect will be that very few players will be what Harper and Machado are this year which are top players at the height of their careers hitting the market.

 

RJM posted:

Pointing out players played for a lot less before free agency isn’t romantic nostalgia. Who wouldn’t want to be paid more? But because they loved the game pro athletes played for what they could get rather than chose other careers less physically demanding. 

RJM - players didn't play for less money before Free Agency for any more or less love of the game than current players.  The Reserve Clause simply gave them no choice. 

The Romantic Nostalgia people have is that guys like Williams, DiMaAggio, Mantel, Mays, Musial, Aaron spent entire careers having to take whatever the club offered and that somehow they liked it that way.  We like it that Teddy Ballgame always has a Red Sox jersey on and not a Yankee one like say Clemons or Boggs later on when they took Steinbrenners dough and the chance to win the World Series. 

salary for MLB and MiLB aren't comparable - there is no demand for MiLB from advertisers, fans, merchandise. If there were demand the price would rise...maybe not fast enough for some, maybe not high enough for others but it would still rise.

The sad truth nobody cares who the 3rd outfielder is at most any random MiLB game. It is just irrelevant, they are holding places for others. Nobody in the entire world cares except a very small percentage of people who are the 1% Reference Jamie Moyer, Chris Coste, Eric Kratz...there are others who have cashed in. The rest hopefully had a plan B...you know kinda like the college kids who didn't get drafted.

If you want the chance to share the dream and the potential huge $'s you prove it for virtually nothing on the farm. It isn't really different then life outside of public corporations, you want big money you make the personal guarantees to the banks and investors, the winners win huge, the losers walk with nothing.

MLB players and their representatives will always view the demand for higher MiLB salaries as a zero-sum game; with a dollar given to minor league players as a dollar taken from MLB players' pockets. Plus, they view the minor league experience as a ticket to be punched  in order to qualify for the potential for MLB riches and fame.

Meanwhile, I will always carry the opinion that major league front offices would prefer that minor league players "self-select" themselves from minor league rosters; rather than releasing them, outright. The more onerous the compensation and overall conditions, the more likely that players at the margin will decide to move on to other pursuits.

Someone mentioned restricting the affiliates. Remember, in many cases the affiliates are not  owned by the MLB franchise. They are owned by individuals and in some cases communities. Most of the affiliates removed from the MiLB system, would simply fold. They do not pay the players salaries and could not afford to do so. Very few would become independent.

 

luv baseball posted:
RJM posted:

Pointing out players played for a lot less before free agency isn’t romantic nostalgia. Who wouldn’t want to be paid more? But because they loved the game pro athletes played for what they could get rather than chose other careers less physically demanding. 

RJM - players didn't play for less money before Free Agency for any more or less love of the game than current players.  The Reserve Clause simply gave them no choice. 

The Romantic Nostalgia people have is that guys like Williams, DiMaAggio, Mantel, Mays, Musial, Aaron spent entire careers having to take whatever the club offered and that somehow they liked it that way.  We like it that Teddy Ballgame always has a Red Sox jersey on and not a Yankee one like say Clemons or Boggs later on when they took Steinbrenners dough and the chance to win the World Series. 

The Reserve Clause didn’t force them to choose baseball as a career. They chose to play baseball even though there may have been less physically demanding and higher paid jobs elsewhere.

Jim Lonborg went to Stanford. He eventually went to Tufts Dental School. He made more as a dentist than he did as a baseball player. But he played baseball until his arm and knees wouldn’t let him even though it paid less.

luv baseball posted:
Dominik85 posted:
old_school posted:

You want make better money get promoted, or get real job. 

Supplu and demand dictates that MiLB players hold no value. It is that simple IMO

I don't agree. If you don't want to pay them  that is fine but then don't make them team controlled for 5 years and allow them free employer choice.

European soccer is capitalism but american sports is actually socialism (revenue sharing, draft, team control).

 

If mlb wants free demand and supply market get rid of team control and make everyone a free agent so you have to pay 20yo mike trout 50m per year.

But owners don't want that and have instead created a socialist system.

I'm open for teams having to pay minor leaguers nothing but then also don't have demands at them and let them sign with every team they want.

I mean google can also have unpaid interns, but they don't control the guy, if apple makes him an offer he is gone within a week.

Imo the very restrictive team control over players also means monetary responsibility, there are many low paid "minor leagues" in other industries but none of them controls the guy for a decade.

A minor league actor might not make anything either but if he gets an offer by Spielberg his former employer never sees him again.

If owners don't want to pay minor leaguers make minor leagues an independent league and make anyone a free agent. But don't keep them as slaves who can't change employer for half a decade.

If minor leaguers had no value teams should allow them to change franchise without getting anything back on a week's notice, shouldn't they.

 

 

This is a negotiated system with the MLBPA.  Marvin Miller understood that it was in the players interest that the game thrive and Free Agents trickle on the market rather than flood it.  

He understood that full free agency where every player being up for grabs after every season would create utter chaos and leave fans confused every season about who was on their team.  Instead he persuaded the players to the current system where the huge money is funneled to veteran players.  He also counted on guys like Steinbrenner to drive up salaries as revenue increased.  And that is exactly what happened.  I am not sure he would have been for revenue sharing and salary caps - but I doubt it.

I think going forward the players are going to want Free Agency sooner because without steroids the value of 30 year old players will not be what it has been.  31/32 year old players will not get 5/6 year contracts any longer.  They will get 1/2 year deals while clubs will continue to look to lock up promising 23-25 year olds on 5 year deals 2 years before they reach free agency.  The effect will be that very few players will be what Harper and Machado are this year which are top players at the height of their careers hitting the market.

 

Yes the union essentially sold the young guys. They essentially made a deal with the owners to overpay the veterans and underpay the young guys.

This worked well for both sides but the new smart GMs got greedy nd decided to stop overpaying old veterans which is a smart thing since they are bad but a problem because it broke the old agreement between union and owners.

old_school posted:

salary for MLB and MiLB aren't comparable - there is no demand for MiLB from advertisers, fans, merchandise. If there were demand the price would rise...maybe not fast enough for some, maybe not high enough for others but it would still rise.

The sad truth nobody cares who the 3rd outfielder is at most any random MiLB game. It is just irrelevant, they are holding places for others. Nobody in the entire world cares except a very small percentage of people who are the 1% Reference Jamie Moyer, Chris Coste, Eric Kratz...there are others who have cashed in. The rest hopefully had a plan B...you know kinda like the college kids who didn't get drafted.

If you want the chance to share the dream and the potential huge $'s you prove it for virtually nothing on the farm. It isn't really different then life outside of public corporations, you want big money you make the personal guarantees to the banks and investors, the winners win huge, the losers walk with nothing.

School 

To say that nobody cares about the 3rd outfielder at any given league is undoubtedly true.  It is also true about almost all of the 125 million other people in the US workforce doing whatever job it is that they are doing.  Yet we have decided as a society to have minimum wage laws which everyone knows will not make anyone rich by any standard in the US.  But you can get a starting job and claw your way up the chain to better paying jobs.   No one is talking about paying them $100k or anything like that.  $7.50 and hour plus OT just like any other job.

Argue the merits of such things (probably a different web site) but that 3rd outfielder is working in the US and  should be subject to the laws of the workforce and not having our government making a special cutout in the labor law to his detriment.  I don't care what his job entails - he is working and should be paid.  

C'mon think about it.  Let's have the government focus on the national debt for example rather sticking their beak into baseball so they can raise some campaign money from ownership.   This one isn't that hard - it really isn't.

luv baseball posted:
old_school posted:

salary for MLB and MiLB aren't comparable - there is no demand for MiLB from advertisers, fans, merchandise. If there were demand the price would rise...maybe not fast enough for some, maybe not high enough for others but it would still rise.

The sad truth nobody cares who the 3rd outfielder is at most any random MiLB game. It is just irrelevant, they are holding places for others. Nobody in the entire world cares except a very small percentage of people who are the 1% Reference Jamie Moyer, Chris Coste, Eric Kratz...there are others who have cashed in. The rest hopefully had a plan B...you know kinda like the college kids who didn't get drafted.

If you want the chance to share the dream and the potential huge $'s you prove it for virtually nothing on the farm. It isn't really different then life outside of public corporations, you want big money you make the personal guarantees to the banks and investors, the winners win huge, the losers walk with nothing.

School 

To say that nobody cares about the 3rd outfielder at any given league is undoubtedly true.  It is also true about almost all of the 125 million other people in the US workforce doing whatever job it is that they are doing.  Yet we have decided as a society to have minimum wage laws which everyone knows will not make anyone rich by any standard in the US.  But you can get a starting job and claw your way up the chain to better paying jobs.   No one is talking about paying them $100k or anything like that.  $7.50 and hour plus OT just like any other job.

Argue the merits of such things (probably a different web site) but that 3rd outfielder is working in the US and  should be subject to the laws of the workforce and not having our government making a special cutout in the labor law to his detriment.  I don't care what his job entails - he is working and should be paid.  

C'mon think about it.  Let's have the government focus on the national debt for example rather sticking their beak into baseball so they can raise some campaign money from ownership.   This one isn't that hard - it really isn't.

actually I can totally support the free market concept. It is extremly rare I would want the government anywhere in my life.

I am not sure baseball players are employees, I think most of them are independent contractors. Assuming they are contractors aren't they essentially self employed and have no minimum wages?

The key concept here is nobody wants to pay them and there are thousands of them every year who want the job...it is a bad business model. As our friend from sharktank Kevin O'Leary likes to tell people. It is a bad idea, take it out back and shoot it....

Example son of friend of family, I played ball with his father for years, I threw the kid a tremendous amount of BP as young child, I would love to see him succeed. The boy was HS stud, D2 college stud, drafted in 30 something round, played rookie ball, A ball short season 2 years gets released...works out, gets independent offer does well, gets picked up again by MLB team, back in A ball....he is now 26 - should be applauded for chasing the dream? Should he take a reality break and decide what he wants to do with his life? He is one of thousands...this is why he has no tangible value and nor do any of the others.

IMO the ship has sailed, son you need to move on but it is what it is.

 

old_school posted:
luv baseball posted:
old_school posted:

salary for MLB and MiLB aren't comparable - there is no demand for MiLB from advertisers, fans, merchandise. If there were demand the price would rise...maybe not fast enough for some, maybe not high enough for others but it would still rise.

The sad truth nobody cares who the 3rd outfielder is at most any random MiLB game. It is just irrelevant, they are holding places for others. Nobody in the entire world cares except a very small percentage of people who are the 1% Reference Jamie Moyer, Chris Coste, Eric Kratz...there are others who have cashed in. The rest hopefully had a plan B...you know kinda like the college kids who didn't get drafted.

If you want the chance to share the dream and the potential huge $'s you prove it for virtually nothing on the farm. It isn't really different then life outside of public corporations, you want big money you make the personal guarantees to the banks and investors, the winners win huge, the losers walk with nothing.

School 

To say that nobody cares about the 3rd outfielder at any given league is undoubtedly true.  It is also true about almost all of the 125 million other people in the US workforce doing whatever job it is that they are doing.  Yet we have decided as a society to have minimum wage laws which everyone knows will not make anyone rich by any standard in the US.  But you can get a starting job and claw your way up the chain to better paying jobs.   No one is talking about paying them $100k or anything like that.  $7.50 and hour plus OT just like any other job.

Argue the merits of such things (probably a different web site) but that 3rd outfielder is working in the US and  should be subject to the laws of the workforce and not having our government making a special cutout in the labor law to his detriment.  I don't care what his job entails - he is working and should be paid.  

C'mon think about it.  Let's have the government focus on the national debt for example rather sticking their beak into baseball so they can raise some campaign money from ownership.   This one isn't that hard - it really isn't.

actually I can totally support the free market concept. It is extremly rare I would want the government anywhere in my life.

I am not sure baseball players are employees, I think most of them are independent contractors. Assuming they are contractors aren't they essentially self employed and have no minimum wages?

The key concept here is nobody wants to pay them and there are thousands of them every year who want the job...it is a bad business model. As our friend from sharktank Kevin O'Leary likes to tell people. It is a bad idea, take it out back and shoot it....

Example son of friend of family, I played ball with his father for years, I threw the kid a tremendous amount of BP as young child, I would love to see him succeed. The boy was HS stud, D2 college stud, drafted in 30 something round, played rookie ball, A ball short season 2 years gets released...works out, gets independent offer does well, gets picked up again by MLB team, back in A ball....he is now 26 - should be applauded for chasing the dream? Should he take a reality break and decide what he wants to do with his life? He is one of thousands...this is why he has no tangible value and nor do any of the others.

IMO the ship has sailed, son you need to move on but it is what it is.

 

They are most certainly employees. They cannot work for other entities, the employer dictates how they will do the job, they are not free to turn down work without termination...etc, etc.

SultanofSwat posted:

This is a simple free market capitalism question.  You are either for it, or you are not informed, or an idiot.

If you artificially raise wages, you WILL HAVE TO FIRE PEOPLE.  The pie does not get bigger, there is only so much pie.

I want as many people as possible to have a chance at making it to the Show.  Raising wages, kills dreams.

I would caution against having such a strong lede when the rest of your post is not supported by any economic fact.

I agree with Matt here.  They are employees - even though there is a contract the fact that this string exists because baseball is pushing the Feds to codify the exemption tells me enough to believe that THEY think these guys are employees and they want a law to say they are not.

The guys that own MLB are not inclined to take unnecessary chances on this front.  They want the Feds to shield them from paying their labor like any other employer. 

In the crassest way - politicians are taking the campaign money from this special interest precisely because there will be no backlash that baseball players will protest or get any widespread public support.  

Do the same thing for McDonald's or Walmart and there is a shitstorm of protest and probably charges of racism and misogyny as cherries on top.  Not a politician in the land will go there.  But screw a couple of thousand kids playing baseball - a bunch of whom aren't citizens that can vote while picking up campaign loot.  JACKPOT!  

I call BS today and twice on Sunday.

So the moral of the story is stay in school unless you are drafted in the 5th round or higher. If you graduate and don't want to play for shitty money go get a job somewhere else. If you studied hard that shouldn't be to tough but if you didn't Walmart pays better then single A!!

I guess kids coming of college should listen what the recruiters told them years before, grades matter, apparently more kids need to study then to worry about making the Bigs.

Honestly this thread is about as silly as thinking the minimum wage should be 15.00 - the minors are a stepping stone not a career. If they become a career you are doing something wrong.

old_school posted:

So the moral of the story is stay in school unless you are drafted in the 5th round or higher. If you graduate and don't want to play for shitty money go get a job somewhere else. If you studied hard that shouldn't be to tough but if you didn't Walmart pays better then single A!!

I guess kids coming of college should listen what the recruiters told them years before, grades matter, apparently more kids need to study then to worry about making the Bigs.

Honestly this thread is about as silly as thinking the minimum wage should be 15.00 - the minors are a stepping stone not a career. If they become a career you are doing something wrong.

In the big picture I agree. However, if a player can get to AAA or be what’s called a AAAA player (MLB injury roster filler) he can be making 65-100k per year. A friend’s son played AAA until he was 34. He told people there was nowhere else he was going to be offered 80k per year.

When they tore the uniform off his back he became a minor league coach. By age 28 he knew that’s where he was eventually headed. Now he’s back at the A level working his way up again. 

I know kids who went into the minors knowing it was likely to only last two or three years. But their plan was to eventually become a teacher and a coach. Playing in the minors was resume building. 

Some kids want their shot no matter how long it is. For other kids they hear about long bus rides, cheap hotels, greasy food and decide it’s time to move on with their life. 

old_school posted:

So the moral of the story is stay in school unless you are drafted in the 5th round or higher. If you graduate and don't want to play for shitty money go get a job somewhere else. If you studied hard that shouldn't be to tough but if you didn't Walmart pays better then single A!!

I guess kids coming of college should listen what the recruiters told them years before, grades matter, apparently more kids need to study then to worry about making the Bigs.

Honestly this thread is about as silly as thinking the minimum wage should be 15.00 - the minors are a stepping stone not a career. If they become a career you are doing something wrong.

Pursuing your dream is every American's birthright just as getting paid according to the law is.  Sarcastic moralizing aside the big shot manager at Walmart now earning $100k that started out stocking shelves got paid....da da da ….minimum wage when he stocked the shelves.  What the minimum wage should be is a different discussion, it exists and isn't going away.

And you are right this whole thing is silly because it is billionaires buying off our representatives to avoid paying a few extra dollars to their labor that is the proximate cause of much of the political angst in our country.  Our government isn't working correctly and this is a perfect example of what is wrong.  We  know this junk happens on all kinds of things we never really know about but this string is highlighting one thing that people on this site can grab ahold of.

What is not silly is that we have discussed this issue in a pretty rational and respectful way ...which is why I enjoy this site over all the others I occasion. 

I get your view - just don't buy the government needs to be spending time writing laws designed to specifically screw baseball players...or anyone else for that matter.  If this kind of stuff in the government stopped I think it would be good for the country.  

luv baseball posted:
old_school posted:

So the moral of the story is stay in school unless you are drafted in the 5th round or higher. If you graduate and don't want to play for shitty money go get a job somewhere else. If you studied hard that shouldn't be to tough but if you didn't Walmart pays better then single A!!

I guess kids coming of college should listen what the recruiters told them years before, grades matter, apparently more kids need to study then to worry about making the Bigs.

Honestly this thread is about as silly as thinking the minimum wage should be 15.00 - the minors are a stepping stone not a career. If they become a career you are doing something wrong.

Pursuing your dream is every American's birthright just as getting paid according to the law is.  Sarcastic moralizing aside the big shot manager at Walmart now earning $100k that started out stocking shelves got paid....da da da ….minimum wage when he stocked the shelves.  What the minimum wage should be is a different discussion, it exists and isn't going away.

And you are right this whole thing is silly because it is billionaires buying off our representatives to avoid paying a few extra dollars to their labor that is the proximate cause of much of the political angst in our country.  Our government isn't working correctly and this is a perfect example of what is wrong.  We  know this junk happens on all kinds of things we never really know about but this string is highlighting one thing that people on this site can grab ahold of.

What is not silly is that we have discussed this issue in a pretty rational and respectful way ...which is why I enjoy this site over all the others I occasion. 

I get your view - just don't buy the government needs to be spending time writing laws designed to specifically screw baseball players...or anyone else for that matter.  If this kind of stuff in the government stopped I think it would be good for the country.  

The attorneys keep coming after them and losing.  Maybe MLB is trying to shut the door on the attorneys.  I find this similar to ambulance chasers looking at the abundance of the well.  When was the last time an independent baseball league was sued over wages?  They pay less than MiLB... 

real green posted:
luv baseball posted:
old_school posted:

So the moral of the story is stay in school unless you are drafted in the 5th round or higher. If you graduate and don't want to play for shitty money go get a job somewhere else. If you studied hard that shouldn't be to tough but if you didn't Walmart pays better then single A!!

I guess kids coming of college should listen what the recruiters told them years before, grades matter, apparently more kids need to study then to worry about making the Bigs.

Honestly this thread is about as silly as thinking the minimum wage should be 15.00 - the minors are a stepping stone not a career. If they become a career you are doing something wrong.

Pursuing your dream is every American's birthright just as getting paid according to the law is.  Sarcastic moralizing aside the big shot manager at Walmart now earning $100k that started out stocking shelves got paid....da da da ….minimum wage when he stocked the shelves.  What the minimum wage should be is a different discussion, it exists and isn't going away.

And you are right this whole thing is silly because it is billionaires buying off our representatives to avoid paying a few extra dollars to their labor that is the proximate cause of much of the political angst in our country.  Our government isn't working correctly and this is a perfect example of what is wrong.  We  know this junk happens on all kinds of things we never really know about but this string is highlighting one thing that people on this site can grab ahold of.

What is not silly is that we have discussed this issue in a pretty rational and respectful way ...which is why I enjoy this site over all the others I occasion. 

I get your view - just don't buy the government needs to be spending time writing laws designed to specifically screw baseball players...or anyone else for that matter.  If this kind of stuff in the government stopped I think it would be good for the country.  

The attorneys keep coming after them and losing.  Maybe MLB is trying to shut the door on the attorneys.  I find this similar to ambulance chasers looking at the abundance of the well.  When was the last time an independent baseball league was sued over wages?  They pay less than MiLB... 

Real,

Now you want to introduce Tort Reform?  As they say in Oz...Why didn't you say so before - that is a horse of a different color!

It is fair to say deep pockets doing borderline things will attract sharks which explains the independent leagues getting the free skate.

The Lords of baseball have decided throwing money at Congress is cheaper than paying the players.  So they will exhaust every avenue available to them before doing so.  If they get their exemption they might just pull it off...but if they don't I would expect like the Reserve Clause they will lose in court...eventually.  

 

luv baseball posted:
real green posted

The attorneys keep coming after them and losing.  Maybe MLB is trying to shut the door on the attorneys.  I find this similar to ambulance chasers looking at the abundance of the well.  When was the last time an independent baseball league was sued over wages?  They pay less than MiLB... 

Real,

Now you want to introduce Tort Reform?  As they say in Oz...Why didn't you say so before - that is a horse of a different color!

It is fair to say deep pockets doing borderline things will attract sharks which explains the independent leagues getting the free skate.

The Lords of baseball have decided throwing money at Congress is cheaper than paying the players.  So they will exhaust every avenue available to them before doing so.  If they get their exemption they might just pull it off...but if they don't I would expect like the Reserve Clause they will lose in court...eventually.  

 

you do realize there is no value correct? All changing the rules will do is get rid of players faster, the cheapest "place holders" will stay and the rest are gone. Plus you will absolutely see a contraction of minor league teams and independents will be devastated...I don't care what they get paid, change the damn law for all I care - it doesn't change the supply side being hopelessly out of whack.

My daughter is involved with a local dinner theater.  She gets "reimbursed" $300 for 100's of hours of work to perform for the theater.  By all accounts she is an employee of the theater.  She inspires to be on Broadway one day.  Is the theater circumventing minimum wage laws?    

real green posted:

My daughter is involved with a local dinner theater.  She gets "reimbursed" $300 for 100's of hours of work to perform for the theater.  By all accounts she is an employee of the theater.  She inspires to be on Broadway one day.  Is the theater circumventing minimum wage laws?    

Possibly. 

real green posted:

My daughter is involved with a local dinner theater.  She gets "reimbursed" $300 for 100's of hours of work to perform for the theater.  By all accounts she is an employee of the theater.  She inspires to be on Broadway one day.  Is the theater circumventing minimum wage laws?    

doubtful, she is probably classified as service staff working of for tips.

Goosegg posted:

How is "the supply side being hopelessly out of whack[?]"

there are somewhere around 5k or so new college kids available every year correct? plus the HS kids not going to school, plus internationals being brought in from all around the globe. The existing rosters are already full and the players remove themselves from the system at much much much slower rate then they enter. there are 30 teams in the MLB they have what 5 MiLB teams each...do the math.

Supply outweighs demand but an staggering number - there is little value...it is very simple.

I guess if you define "supply" as every person who is draft eligible and who plays baseball, it's an over supply.

By this definition there is an over supply of people for every single profession, job, internship, college spot, etc., in the world. 

Except, that's not how it works - or defined.

Supply is defined - and initially limited - by persons meeting the initial qualifications sought by (lets say) the relevant industry/profession. For example, a law firm looking to add an attorney has an initial qualification (limiting supply) of a law degree. That law firm further limits supply to accredited law schools, then specific law schools (e.g., Ivy), then certain achievements within that school (e.g., Law Review, top 10%, etc.). From that resulting supply the firm satisfies it's demand.

No one views employers' prerequites as truly limiting supply (essentially what supply means in this context are those people meeting the minimim qualifications of that job) - the job definition limits the potential near infinite supply of humans. Supply is not defined as "those wanting the job."

While it's easy to be flip about the 90+% of professional signees as stable ponies, that's only looking backwards (i.e., after release/retirement).  Every signeee (absent some nepotism) was evaluated by an expert (i.e. scouting side of each organization) who concluded that the signee had at least one potential MLB tool. THAT IS PROBALL'S PREREQUISITE: ONE POTENTIAL MLB TOOL. Proball's prerequisite is NOT everyone who wears a uniform (though that's where the scouts start).

Over the years, organizations have become more proficient (quicker) at determining whose POTENTIAL MLB tool will not develop. (Each organization used to have way more milb teams. But then came a more structured development system which allowed quicker evaluations. Now, statistical advances and mathematicians have/are making the process even faster.)

It's not the cost of the players salaries in low milb which will drive elimination of teams/levels, it's quicker analysis which determines who has a shot of reaching MLB. (Increasing salaries to minimim wage adds roughly 1 mil/yr per team for each organization - a pittance.)

(As an aside, less then 100 players make huge FA salaries. When you look at Investment Banking (as an example), there are way more people earning that - yet that industry pays it's starting analysts over 100k to start (works out to about $20 - 35/hr).  Virtually every business/economics major in the country wants that job; yet despite that huge supply, the IB firms pay a hefty, above minimum wage, starting salary (because they limit the supply to top students or top schools) (I'm sure many would work for free to get in the door - yet the firms don't go that route.) And, 90% of those first year analysts will be gone by year 5. The 90% are not stable ponies; they leave for the same reasons milb players leave (burnout, life balance, not suited, other opportunity). The top legal firms are the same. These industries cast a wide net expecting huge attrition - and all but baseball pays minimum wage.)

What makes baseball unique?(indeed, an argument could be made that incoming baseball players, having played and focused on baseball for over a decade, are more qualified then a law student who has acquired 3 years of specialized learning or a first year analyst who knows nothing about IB.)

 

 

MILB players get screwed with money!!!! To my son it didn’t and doesn’t matter as his passion for the game outweighs anything else.

My son who played Division 1 college baseball with very little cost to him and the family was drafted as a red shirt senior at age of 23. Got small signing bonus as no leverage. Worked his way through minor league system. Made his MLB debut in June of 2017. Was traded this June to another team, unfortunately went on DL in July 2018 for first time in his career. Is rehabbing to be ready for spring training. Makes a very decent salary. More then in any regular job. Went back in second off season to complete his college degree for free with help from school and his MLB team. Gives private pitching lessons in off season with a waiting list. 

Moral of his story

He would have played for free. If he had a do over would play for free!!! His passion for the game outweighs anything else in his life. When he chooses to walk away from this crazy journey he will do something in his life related to baseball

 

The fact that MLB spent money on lobbyist to get Congress to specifically protect baseball from wage laws makes it clear that that MLB owners were concerned they were doing something wrong and needed to try to get ahead of the issue. 

Very few MiLB players are playing for the money.  They have spent most of their lives developing skills to simply have the opportunity to compete at the highest levels possible with the dream of making the Show.  A basic living wage would not be enough to motivate a person to dedicate the time and effort to succeed at what is essentially an elite level of a profession.  I do believe they have earned the opportunity to be paid a wage adequate to live on.  $5,500 a season for an entry level player is truly absurd.  Considering they pay for insurance, club house dues, etc... they don't have to worry about taxes.  MLB owners are simply pinching pennies where they can legally do so and where the employees have no legitimate way to fight the issue.  MiLB players have little leverage even if they had their own union.  The other real culprit is the MLB Players association that is taking from the poor to pay the rich.  Simply reducing the MLB payrolls by 2-4% would be enough to pay all MiLB players a minimum of $30K.  This is not a significant wage to get excited about.

Congress clearly should focus on other issues. 

One big problem of the low salaries is that is discriminates poor Americans. The Latin players will do it regardless because in the Dominican 1000 bucks a month is actually a lot but for the US born players it means apart from the high bonus guys only families with money who can pay for that "hobby" can afford it.

 

Imo this is not very smart for mlb clubs. Player development becomes more and more important and worry about money and shitty food are not a good environment to develop. I mean a minor league player who has to work all winter likely won't train and recuperate as well as a guy who can train full time.

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