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RJM - you may be tired of it but the idea that we are ever going back to a place where we can even simply disagree about what to do about anything is quickly becoming a relic of the past.  Hell we can't even agree on the facts anymore.

For example a hurricane is no longer just a hurricane - it is now - one of the most powerful storms in history due to global warming and that is all the fault of (insert any guilty party here).  They should be destroyed/put out of business/fired and then tarred and feathered. 

Far worse is now the "facts" are lies and you have to sift through and look for the truth.  An example of this is Trump/Gabbard/Stein are Russian assets.  Fully proven hogwash but about 1/2 the country is buying it.

More people need to voice your point of view and be willing to stand up and say ENOUGH to stop it - I'm with you.

Our country's future may depend upon it..

RJM posted:

I’m not making Taubman a poster child for anything. We don’t know if there’s anything else. So we have to assume not. I’m tired of the “I’m offended by words, hung the sucker” movement. Sure, he was wrong. What he said was offensive. Find an appropriate punishment short of firing. 

Who gets to decide how much women in the workplace are supposed to endure, or how much abuse men can engage in before firing becomes "appropriate"?  The law moved to a different place than you are advocating quite a few years ago. 

From the accounts I read, Taubman did a lot more than make an off-color remark; he was in others' faces and shouting.  If he had tried to do the same thing to a man, he'd have been at risk of getting punched.  But of course, guys like that generally prefer to single out people who aren't going to fight back--often that means they target women. 

You're entitled to your opinion. We're getting pretty far into non-baseball topics here, so I'm signing off.  

luv baseball posted:

RJM - you may be tired of it but the idea that we are ever going back to a place where we can even simply disagree about what to do about anything is quickly becoming a relic of the past.  Hell we can't even agree on the facts anymore.

For example a hurricane is no longer just a hurricane - it is now - one of the most powerful storms in history due to global warming and that is all the fault of (insert any guilty party here).  They should be destroyed/put out of business/fired and then tarred and feathered. 

Far worse is now the "facts" are lies and you have to sift through and look for the truth.  An example of this is Trump/Gabbard/Stein are Russian assets.  Fully proven hogwash but about 1/2 the country is buying it.

More people need to voice your point of view and be willing to stand up and say ENOUGH to stop it - I'm with you.

Our country's future may depend upon it..

Can we stick with baseball?  I'm guilty of straying beyond that subject here, too--I should have known better.  I value the discussions here very much, and value the chance to NOT talk about politics.  

 

@RJM - The bottom line is he is a high level executive at a public, media facing organization.  What he said was unnecessary and put his employer in a highly unfavorable position.  When you do that, if the stakes are high enough, you get fired.  Pretty open/shut, and IMO not reflective of anything more societally macro than that.  

@luvbaseball - I won't get into the Trump/Gabbard/Stein comment, as that's clearly coming from a hyper partisan perspective.  However, Hurricanes and climate change actually aren't.  That's as fact based as you can get (other than doctoring a map).  I have a close friend who runs an insurance business for high net worth clients, and he basically goes around the country assessing damage done by climate change.  His data, his words, and ultimately the money of his clients.  All very straight forward and apolitical, so simply suggesting you use a better example next time in trying to prove your point.  

In the words of Forrest Gump, that's all I have to say about that.  Back to baseball.  

RJM posted:

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10...taubman-fired-astros

The Astros just fired Taubman. He obviously did something wrong. But I’m tired of people being fired for every politically incorrect thing they do. We’ve become a society that‘s turned getting offended into an art. Even though I’m a right leaning libertarian I was against forcing Al Franken to resign.

Unless there’s a track record the best solution is make the person grovel in public for an apology. Then make them do some kind of community service until they get it.

Thwre are too many males being tossed out of colleges without due process due to zero tolerance after an accusation. 

I think taubman was fired ultimately due to the terrible reactions by crane and luhnow. 

What he did was bad but if the astros hadn't tried to spin this "fake news media try to spin something against us" tactics they could have moved on. The astros reaction was in the end a bigger story than taubman's action and the Astros felt the only way to quiet down the situation was to sacrifice taubman.

I can understand that people feel that "PC zealots killed him" thing but the thing that ruined it was that the astros questioned the media credibility, they should have known that journalists stand together if you do that.

More than a story about PC media and a guy saying something wrong this is a story about very bad PR strategy that went terribly wrong and in the end taubman needed to be sacrificed to create peace and not affect player focus.

Last edited by Dominik85
Dominik85 posted:
RJM posted:

https://www.si.com/mlb/2019/10...taubman-fired-astros

The Astros just fired Taubman. He obviously did something wrong. But I’m tired of people being fired for every politically incorrect thing they do. We’ve become a society that‘s turned getting offended into an art. Even though I’m a right leaning libertarian I was against forcing Al Franken to resign.

Unless there’s a track record the best solution is make the person grovel in public for an apology. Then make them do some kind of community service until they get it.

Thwre are too many males being tossed out of colleges without due process due to zero tolerance after an accusation. 

I think taubman was fired ultimately due to the terrible reactions by crane and luhnow. 

What he did was bad but if the astros hadn't tried to spin this "fake news media try to spin something against us" tactics they could have moved on. The astros reaction was in the end a bigger story than taubman's action and the Astros felt the only way to quiet down the situation was to sacrifice taubman.

I can understand that people feel that "PC zealots killed him" thing but the thing that ruined it was that the astros questioned the media credibility, they should have known that journalists stand together if you do that.

More than a story about PC media and a guy saying something wrong this is a story about very bad PR strategy that went terribly wrong and in the end taubman needed to be sacrificed to create peace and not affect player focus.

1000% correct

fenwaysouth posted:

There is an old saying in baseball that great pitching, great defense and timely hitting trumps all.  This is what the Nationals have done throughout the playoffs against "better teams on paper".   Love it when old sayings are true.  When I look at this objectively, Verlander kept them in the game and went toe to toe with Strasburg throughout the game.   They were on a similar pitch count and both settled down after a rough first inning.  However, then Nats defense was much better.  The Astros defense was exposed for poor judgement.   Bregman knows he has to hold that infield hit ball which led two more runs and opened the flood gates because of an errant throw to first.   Okay Verlander gave up the go ahead to Suzuki but that is just one run and you've got to be disciplined with decisions to keep your team in the game.  The Astros just looked sloppy, and they didn't know what to do because they've never been in that position before.   The Astros dug themselves a hole and their bats couldn't get them out....so much for timely hitting.   

There were glimpse of the Nats playing this well during the season, but nothing like the streak they are on now.  The Nats are my national league team and I follow them pretty closely.  The Astros just look lost and they are trying to blast themselves out of this offensive funk.   This is playing right into the Nats hands.

As always, JMO.  

 

Nats had 2 errors though.  Both are feeling the pressure.  The Nats bat came through, but Houston's bats are pretty amazing and all the core 6 guys have proven to be clutch one time or another.  I really enjoyed the pitching though.  Verlander vs Strasburg.  That's like Nolan Ryan vs Roger Clemens back in the day.  Verlander was one of the first modern pitchers to throw 99 consistently and Strasburg was probably supposed to be the greatest phenom ever.  It was a great battle until the Nats broke it open against the pen.  

 

In all of this excitement.... I forgot to mention the poor Altuve decision to try to steal third with the big bats coming up.   Astros are forcing this, and trying to do too much.    Why steal third when you have your big boppers at the plate and coming up, and you're already in scoring position.   It was one of the worst decisions in this series and it cost the Astros mojo, momentum and a chance to score. 

I can't wait for tonight's game!

I never thought of the Nationals as underdogs in this series.  They started the year so bad, but they also started the year without their full team healthy and playing.  So, we have to take that 107 wins for Astros vs 93 for Nationals with a grain of salt.  Since May 24 when the Nationals became whole, they actually have a better record and statistics.  Unless the Astros can get into the Nationals' bullpen early tonight and pull off the win, this series is setting up for a sweep.  And it would not be a total surprise to many baseball observers.

EastCO posted:

Personally , I think the real story is that the Taubman controversy has killed the Astros mojo.   Best thing about the game are the intangible elements to winning.  Its about atmosphere and team chemistry.  One little Bryce Harper in the cog and ...  

I guess this is a chat board, so you can write anything you want.

The Nationals have played better.  An asst GM you never heard of before isn't Bryce Harper in the locker room.

Go44dad posted:
EastCO posted:

Personally , I think the real story is that the Taubman controversy has killed the Astros mojo.   Best thing about the game are the intangible elements to winning.  Its about atmosphere and team chemistry.  One little Bryce Harper in the cog and ...  

I guess this is a chat board, so you can write anything you want.

The Nationals have played better.  An asst GM you never heard of before isn't Bryce Harper in the locker room.

Haha. Actually its an American chat board, so yes... I get to write my opinions just like you.  But I dont underestimate the role of internal and external factors in team play.  Baby shark shark shark shark. 

Astros won a game they needed to win, and played much better last night.  They got the timely hits.

Couldn't help noticing (I'm not blind!) the umpire had a whimsical strike zone last night.  It seemed to me that both starting pitchers were getting squeezed on borderline calls, but Sanchez moreso.   It seemed like the strike zone opened up when the relievers came in.   I couldn't help wondering how often MLB umpire have their eyesight checked.   

BTW...Greinke is the reason why a pitching clock is needed.   Freaking ridiculous.

fenwaysouth posted:
BTW...Greinke is the reason why a pitching clock is needed.   Freaking ridiculous.

Chapman was worse; he seemed so slow I started timing him, he was 26-36 seconds between pitches.  Greinke seemed slow, so I got to timing him last night too, but he really was mostly just 20-25 seconds most pitches.

With these slow pitchers, the t.v. cuts to a shot of the crowd, then the dugout, then the manager, then close-up of the batter, then pitcher, all while waiting for the next pitch.  It's really annoying.

Dominik85 posted:

Astros have turned the series around, wouldn't surprise me if the win in 6 now.

Not so fast.   Astros have turned two games around...yes I can count at the advanced age of 57.  Series is still tied and a toss up.  One game at a time Dominik85.   Let's see what Mr Scherzer and Mr Cole have to say tonight at 8:07pm EST in a battle of real freaking aces.   Love me a pitchers duel and we all might get to bed before midnight!

Enjoy!

fenwaysouth posted:
Dominik85 posted:

Astros have turned the series around, wouldn't surprise me if the win in 6 now.

Not so fast.   Astros have turned two games around...yes I can count at the advanced age of 57.  Series is still tied and a toss up.  One game at a time Dominik85.   Let's see what Mr Scherzer and Mr Cole have to say tonight at 8:07pm EST in a battle of real freaking aces.   Love me a pitchers duel and we all might get to bed before midnight!

Enjoy!

Like, forget football today let’s just get to it. Two of the best in the game pitching in the biggest game of their life. 

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I get analytics but I also trust my eyes. My eyes tell me that the Astronauts are the better team. The reason I didn’t think that game two was a must-win for then and they could survive an 0-2 start is because they have championship pedigree as well as having really good players who are mentally tough to boot.

Whether they go on to win the series or not won’t change my opinion that they’re the better team. Anyone who’s played or watched this game understands that the best team doesn’t always win.

That’s not a knock on Washington because they’re obvious a good team as well. 

That is the advantage the astros have, they have depth. Joe ross doesn't belong anywhere near a postseason roster (albeit he did an ok job and the nats lost because they couldn't get hits in key situations and especially lacked power) but the nats have very little pitching depth behind their top 3 starters and their two good relievers.

I’ve been all in on the Astros from the start but thought last night was more of a must-win for them than game two of the series. 

Mad Max. Game seven.  Could get really interesting. 

I’m sticking with my pick as the Astronauts find away to scratch out a 5-4 victory. Tonight’s hero? Correa will have the game winning RBI. 

Smitty28 posted:

Forcing a baserunner to run in foul territory to reach a base that is sitting in fair territory is a terrible rule.  This should be changed to allow the runner to use either side of the foul line, and the fielders should need to adjust their play, just like they do at other bases.  JMO.

The runner doesn’t have to be in foul territory when striding into the base. It was a bad call. I’m guessing if the first baseman’s glove hadn’t come off the call wouldn’t have been made. It created the illusion of interference.

hshuler posted:

I’ve been all in on the Astros from the start but thought last night was more of a must-win for them than game two of the series. 

Mad Max. Game seven.  Could get really interesting. 

I’m sticking with my pick as the Astronauts find away to scratch out a 5-4 victory. Tonight’s hero? Correa will have the game winning RBI. 

Holding ya to that, Shu!

RJM posted:
Smitty28 posted:

Forcing a baserunner to run in foul territory to reach a base that is sitting in fair territory is a terrible rule.  This should be changed to allow the runner to use either side of the foul line, and the fielders should need to adjust their play, just like they do at other bases.  JMO.

The runner doesn’t have to be in foul territory when striding into the base. It was a bad call. I’m guessing if the first baseman’s glove hadn’t come off the call wouldn’t have been made. It created the illusion of interference.

True, but he has to be in foul territory leading up to the last step into the base.  Turner was, in fact, in fair territory the entire path to 1st base but this didn't impact the play, only the stride into the base did.  By rule, he has the right to go for the base in this situation.  I agree it was a bad call, but if this rule didn't exist there would be no ambiguity and this call never would have been made.

Smitty28 posted:
RJM posted:
Smitty28 posted:

Forcing a baserunner to run in foul territory to reach a base that is sitting in fair territory is a terrible rule.  This should be changed to allow the runner to use either side of the foul line, and the fielders should need to adjust their play, just like they do at other bases.  JMO.

The runner doesn’t have to be in foul territory when striding into the base. It was a bad call. I’m guessing if the first baseman’s glove hadn’t come off the call wouldn’t have been made. It created the illusion of interference.

True, but he has to be in foul territory leading up to the last step into the base.  Turner was, in fact, in fair territory the entire path to 1st base but this didn't impact the play, only the stride into the base did.  By rule, he has the right to go for the base in this situation.  I agree it was a bad call, but if this rule didn't exist there would be no ambiguity and this call never would have been made.

Agree with Smitty28. See 5.09(a)(11). Turner never stepped on the line with either foot.

I hate the rule, and I hate the ump's judgement in that situation, but that's the way it's written in the rule book.

https://content.mlb.com/docume...all_Rules_FINAL_.pdf

Doctor Joe posted:

For me, it has been a pleasure to watch former phenom Strasburg develop into what was predicted of him 10 years ago.  He has silenced the critics and is, in my opinion, the best pitcher in baseball.  Looks like he will make himself a lot of money if he so chooses. 

"This is exactly why you shut down Strasburg in September 2012. Long game."

https://twitter.com/barstoolbi...383865103736832?s=12

MidAtlanticDad posted:
Smitty28 posted:
RJM posted:
Smitty28 posted:

Forcing a baserunner to run in foul territory to reach a base that is sitting in fair territory is a terrible rule.  This should be changed to allow the runner to use either side of the foul line, and the fielders should need to adjust their play, just like they do at other bases.  JMO.

The runner doesn’t have to be in foul territory when striding into the base. It was a bad call. I’m guessing if the first baseman’s glove hadn’t come off the call wouldn’t have been made. It created the illusion of interference.

True, but he has to be in foul territory leading up to the last step into the base.  Turner was, in fact, in fair territory the entire path to 1st base but this didn't impact the play, only the stride into the base did.  By rule, he has the right to go for the base in this situation.  I agree it was a bad call, but if this rule didn't exist there would be no ambiguity and this call never would have been made.

Agree with Smitty28. See 5.09(a)(11). Turner never stepped on the line with either foot.

I hate the rule, and I hate the ump's judgement in that situation, but that's the way it's written in the rule book.

https://content.mlb.com/docume...all_Rules_FINAL_.pdf

So, here is the written rule Mid refers to...

"Rule 5.09(a)(11) Comment: The lines marking the three-foot lane are a part of that lane and a batter-runner is required to have both feet within the three-foot lane or on the lines marking the lane. The batter-runner is permitted to exit the threefoot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the immediate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base." 

In reality, almost every ball put in play by a RH batter where there is likely to be a (close) play at first, the batter runner is taking the fastest, most direct route he can to the bag.  This results in a path identical to the one Turner took and almost never results in the batter runner actually using the lane.  In fact, Turner hit roughly the middle of the bag with his left foot, leaving plenty of bag to work with for the defense.  To actually use the lane per the rule, a RH batter would have to take a somewhat circular route to the base.  Not practical or realistic.  He is racing the play to the base where he is then allowed to run thru it.  The vast majority of the times I have seen the runner interference called was when a runner intentionally took a route slightly toward the infield in an effort to cause interference with the throw. 

My knee-jerk reaction is that the rule should be changed to allow the runner to take a direct route from the point he leaves the box thru the bag.   But then we would probably have more contact issues between 1B and batter runner, which is why the running lane is there in the first place.  There just needs to be better discretion in making that call.  Last night was a bad call at a terrible time and I'm a little surprised Joe Torre defended it afterward... I guess that's part of his job.  Can you imagine if that ended up being the difference in the game and cost them the series?  Dude would be infamous.  We're talkin' almost Steve Bartman level.  Holbrook should be sending Rendon a big fat thank-you present.

I don't advocate this for high level baseball but the white/orange double first base used in youth ball and rec softball would eliminate the problem

Last edited by cabbagedad

I think some of you are ignoring the path Turner was on before taking the definitive step to the bag.  His left foot was in the grass the last time it touched before contacting the base.  It was also in the grass the 5 times it contacted the ground before that as well.  He was basically cutting across the 1st baseman back to the bag when he made that definitive step so many are hanging their argument on.  It was while cutting from the grass to the bag that contact with the glove was made.  He obstructed the ability to make the play with his path to the bag which is why the rule is in place.  Had he been in the designated running lane and veered to the bag he likely would not have contacted the glove and if he did it would have been a legal move.  As the rule is written, it's the correct call regardless if you like or agree with the rule as written or who you want to win the game.

22and25 posted:

I think some of you are ignoring the path Turner was on before taking the definitive step to the bag.  His left foot was in the grass the last time it touched before contacting the base.  It was also in the grass the 5 times it contacted the ground before that as well.  He was basically cutting across the 1st baseman back to the bag when he made that definitive step so many are hanging their argument on.  It was while cutting from the grass to the bag that contact with the glove was made.  He obstructed the ability to make the play with his path to the bag which is why the rule is in place.  Had he been in the designated running lane and veered to the bag he likely would not have contacted the glove and if he did it would have been a legal move.  As the rule is written, it's the correct call regardless if you like or agree with the rule as written or who you want to win the game.

It wasn't a running lane violation unless of course it was, in the umpires judgement. His judgment was poor.

To qualify as a running lane violation the runner had to have interfered with the play; he absolutely did not. Turner was nowhere near the path of the ball in flight and did not force the fielder to change the delivery of his throw or the path prior to him releasing the ball. That's like saying a second baseman's throw to first would have been impacted by Turner not being in the running lane!

Had it been a bunt fielded in front of home plate then it could have been a violation. Judgement call of course. In the bunt example, had the fielder (let's use the catcher as an example) dropped the ball before delivering it to first and the runner beat the throw it would be poor judgement to rule it a running lane violation. Unless of course the umpire judged the runners path to first caused the fielder to drop the ball before his throw. Again, that would also be poor judgment!

ABSORBER posted:
22and25 posted:

I think some of you are ignoring the path Turner was on before taking the definitive step to the bag.  His left foot was in the grass the last time it touched before contacting the base.  It was also in the grass the 5 times it contacted the ground before that as well.  He was basically cutting across the 1st baseman back to the bag when he made that definitive step so many are hanging their argument on.  It was while cutting from the grass to the bag that contact with the glove was made.  He obstructed the ability to make the play with his path to the bag which is why the rule is in place.  Had he been in the designated running lane and veered to the bag he likely would not have contacted the glove and if he did it would have been a legal move.  As the rule is written, it's the correct call regardless if you like or agree with the rule as written or who you want to win the game.

It wasn't a running lane violation unless of course it was, in the umpires judgement. His judgment was poor.

To qualify as a running lane violation the runner had to have interfered with the play; he absolutely did not. Turner was nowhere near the path of the ball in flight and did not force the fielder to change the delivery of his throw or the path prior to him releasing the ball. That's like saying a second baseman's throw to first would have been impacted by Turner not being in the running lane!

Had it been a bunt fielded in front of home plate then it could have been a violation. Judgement call of course. In the bunt example, had the fielder (let's use the catcher as an example) dropped the ball before delivering it to first and the runner beat the throw it would be poor judgement to rule it a running lane violation. Unless of course the umpire judged the runners path to first caused the fielder to drop the ball before his throw. Again, that would also be poor judgment!

It was an interference call, a judgement call as you indicate, one that would not have been made had the runner's path been consistent with the rules governing such calls specific to the 1st base line.  There is a reason for the running lane, to avoid such issues.  There is also a reason it starts well down the line, to allow runner's ample time to adjust their path to get into the running lane.  The fact that Turner's last step with his left foot was in the grass means he was well into fair territory at the bag and he obviously made contact with the glove, knocking it off.  Pretty much the definition of interference as the rules are written specific to 1st base.  It might not have been a running lane violation but being in the lane would have obviated the interference call.  Don't want to get called, run in the lane or at least somewhat close to it.

Last edited by 22and25
22and25 posted:
ABSORBER posted:
22and25 posted:

I think some of you are ignoring the path Turner was on before taking the definitive step to the bag.  His left foot was in the grass the last time it touched before contacting the base.  It was also in the grass the 5 times it contacted the ground before that as well.  He was basically cutting across the 1st baseman back to the bag when he made that definitive step so many are hanging their argument on.  It was while cutting from the grass to the bag that contact with the glove was made.  He obstructed the ability to make the play with his path to the bag which is why the rule is in place.  Had he been in the designated running lane and veered to the bag he likely would not have contacted the glove and if he did it would have been a legal move.  As the rule is written, it's the correct call regardless if you like or agree with the rule as written or who you want to win the game.

It wasn't a running lane violation unless of course it was, in the umpires judgement. His judgment was poor.

To qualify as a running lane violation the runner had to have interfered with the play; he absolutely did not. Turner was nowhere near the path of the ball in flight and did not force the fielder to change the delivery of his throw or the path prior to him releasing the ball. That's like saying a second baseman's throw to first would have been impacted by Turner not being in the running lane!

Had it been a bunt fielded in front of home plate then it could have been a violation. Judgement call of course. In the bunt example, had the fielder (let's use the catcher as an example) dropped the ball before delivering it to first and the runner beat the throw it would be poor judgement to rule it a running lane violation. Unless of course the umpire judged the runners path to first caused the fielder to drop the ball before his throw. Again, that would also be poor judgment!

It was an interference call, a judgement call as you indicate, one that would not have been made had the runner's path been consistent with the rules governing such calls specific to the 1st base line.  There is a reason for the running lane, to avoid such issues.  There is also a reason it starts well down the line, to allow runner's ample time to adjust their path to get into the running lane.  The fact that Turner's last step with his left foot was in the grass means he was well into fair territory at the bag and he obviously made contact with the glove, knocking it off.  Pretty much the definition of interference as the rules are written specific to 1st base.  It might not have been a running lane violation but being in the lane would have obviated the interference call.  Don't want to get called, run in the lane or at least somewhat close to it.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Turner had no impact whatsoever in how the ball was fielded, how and where it was thrown, or where it was caught. Therefore you are missing half of the requirement for a running lane violation.

Using your terminology every multi-base hit is a running lane violation since runners are nowhere near the running lane (perhaps carrying a bat to 1st should also be a running lane violation).

A fielder's glove comes into contact with a runner all the time. Plus the contact in this case occurred ON THE BAG while Turner's left foot impacted the CENTER OF THE BAG. Is a runner standing on 1st base violating the running lane?

ABSORBER posted:
22and25 posted:
ABSORBER posted:
22and25 posted:

I think some of you are ignoring the path Turner was on before taking the definitive step to the bag.  His left foot was in the grass the last time it touched before contacting the base.  It was also in the grass the 5 times it contacted the ground before that as well.  He was basically cutting across the 1st baseman back to the bag when he made that definitive step so many are hanging their argument on.  It was while cutting from the grass to the bag that contact with the glove was made.  He obstructed the ability to make the play with his path to the bag which is why the rule is in place.  Had he been in the designated running lane and veered to the bag he likely would not have contacted the glove and if he did it would have been a legal move.  As the rule is written, it's the correct call regardless if you like or agree with the rule as written or who you want to win the game.

It wasn't a running lane violation unless of course it was, in the umpires judgement. His judgment was poor.

To qualify as a running lane violation the runner had to have interfered with the play; he absolutely did not. Turner was nowhere near the path of the ball in flight and did not force the fielder to change the delivery of his throw or the path prior to him releasing the ball. That's like saying a second baseman's throw to first would have been impacted by Turner not being in the running lane!

Had it been a bunt fielded in front of home plate then it could have been a violation. Judgement call of course. In the bunt example, had the fielder (let's use the catcher as an example) dropped the ball before delivering it to first and the runner beat the throw it would be poor judgement to rule it a running lane violation. Unless of course the umpire judged the runners path to first caused the fielder to drop the ball before his throw. Again, that would also be poor judgment!

It was an interference call, a judgement call as you indicate, one that would not have been made had the runner's path been consistent with the rules governing such calls specific to the 1st base line.  There is a reason for the running lane, to avoid such issues.  There is also a reason it starts well down the line, to allow runner's ample time to adjust their path to get into the running lane.  The fact that Turner's last step with his left foot was in the grass means he was well into fair territory at the bag and he obviously made contact with the glove, knocking it off.  Pretty much the definition of interference as the rules are written specific to 1st base.  It might not have been a running lane violation but being in the lane would have obviated the interference call.  Don't want to get called, run in the lane or at least somewhat close to it.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Turner had no impact whatsoever in how the ball was fielded, how and where it was thrown, or where it was caught. Therefore you are missing half of the requirement for a running lane violation.

Using your terminology every multi-base hit is a running lane violation since runners are nowhere near the running lane (perhaps carrying a bat to 1st should also be a running lane violation).

A fielder's glove comes into contact with a runner all the time. Plus the contact in this case occurred ON THE BAG while Turner's left foot impacted the CENTER OF THE BAG. Is a runner standing on 1st base violating the running lane?

Yes, we can agree to disagree.  Your points about extra base hits and carrying bats on a HR are going to the absurd to try to support your argument, neither of those situations involve a play at 1st base.  As I walk away I will just leave this here again:

 

"Rule 5.09(a)(11) Comment: The lines marking the three-foot lane are a part of that lane and a batter-runner is required to have both feet within the three-foot lane or on the lines marking the lane. The batter-runner is permitted to exit the threefoot lane by means of a step, stride, reach or slide in the immediate vicinity of first base for the sole purpose of touching first base." 

 

Turner did just the opposite,  he ran the entire way completely in the field of play and with his last step veered out to get to the bag and in the process interfered with the catch.  Had he been in the lane and veered at the immediate vicinity of the bag as clearly spelled out in the rule he would not have interfered with the play.

Dominik85 posted:

Regarding the rule: i know it isn't cool but 1b  collusions are quite dangerous, would it maybe make sense to use a double base like in softball? 

 

Won't be a double base, but I am hearing the bases themselves will be bigger next year. Hoping that's true. Second base would be 2=3" closer to first and first base would be that much closer to second. One newspaper commented that base stealing may return to being in "vogue" again.  Could help put more interest in the game to mix with all the HRs, Ks and shifts. Just my opinion. Loved how the Nats manufactured their first run last night. If Nats win, it means their Big 2 starters were better than Houston's #1& #2.

ABSORBER posted:

We'll have to agree to disagree. Turner had no impact whatsoever in how the ball was fielded, how and where it was thrown, or where it was caught. Therefore you are missing half of the requirement for a running lane violation.

Using your terminology every multi-base hit is a running lane violation since runners are nowhere near the running lane (perhaps carrying a bat to 1st should also be a running lane violation).

5.09(a)(11) is under the section for Making an Out - Retiring the Batter. It's specific to the ball "being fielded to first base", so doesn't pertain to balls hit out of the infield.

(11) In running the last half of the distance from home base to first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he runs outside (to the right of ) the three-foot line, or inside (to the left of ) the foul line, and in the umpire’s judgment in so doing interferes with the fielder taking the throw at first base, in which case the ball is dead; except that he may run outside (to the right of ) the three-foot line or inside (to the left of ) the foul line to avoid a fielder attempting to field a batted ball;

The umpires judgement was that Turner's path contributed to the interference. If his last step before the bag was on the line, maybe his butt is 6" further toward foul territory and it misses Gurriel's mitt. I doubt it, but I don't think it's a terrible call given the way the rule is written. But I also think the rule needs to be changed... maybe allow the runner the area directly over the bag.

Is the running lane rule, however you read it, ever enforced unless a runner’s path to the base actually affects the throw or its receipt?  Turner did neither while running to the bag—he was on the base when the throw hit him. You don’t suddenly decide on a new (at best) reading of the rules when there is a one-run lead in the late innings of game 6 of the World Series.

I agree with the comment above that the umpire reacted because the 1B’s glove came off.  The ball was hit down the third base line—absolutely not the situation the rule was written for. If Gurriel had set up with his right foot on the bag and his glove extended toward the fielder, then the only issue would be whether Turner beats the throw. 

And if MLB is really going to read the rule book this way from now on, then it almost has to use a double-wide base. Otherwise right-handed batters were just saddled with an even larger disadvantage when running to first. The lane exists for weak grounders on the right side of the infield and dropped third strikes—for plays on balls anywhere else, there is no more need for it than there would be for special running lanes at any other base.  If a 1b tried to receive a throw with his glove held chest-high over the middle of the bag, then the fielder has every right to run through it—and the resulting collision of runner with glove would look the same whether or not the runner used the lane to the right of the baseline. Turner’s path to the base did not affect the play. 

Reminds me of the George Brett pine tar incident: arguably a violation of the letter of the rules, but didn’t actually affect play and the player had no reason to expect the rule to be enforced in that fashion. 

Nobody is debating the definition of running lane. We are simply debating the umpires judgment:

(11) In running the last half of the distance from home base to
first base, while the ball is being fielded to first base, he
runs outside (to the right of ) the three-foot line, or inside
(to the left of ) the foul line, and in the umpire’s judgment
in so doing interferes with the fielder taking the throw at
first base, in which case the ball is dead; except that he
may run outside (to the right of) the three-foot line or
inside (to the left of) the foul line to avoid a fielder
attempting to field a batted ball;

Turner reached first at the exact moment the ball was caught. In fact, the first baseman's glove swept into Turner (who was on the base at the time) as a result of receiving a poor throw from 3rd.

It's simply a matter of poor judgment.

By the way, my comment on carrying the bat to first was in jest. Even though it appears it's OK while the runner, in the act of stepping on first, is out because of he made contact with the glove--which happens ALL THE TIME with errant throws to first from all over the infield. Do you think anybody is paying attention to the running lane when the SS makes a bad throw?

fenwaysouth posted:

I don't care about the Turner interference call.  I do care about the shitty umpiring job behind home plate this entire World Series.   How these guys keep their jobs is a mystery to me.

Looking forward to a great Game 7 with Max on the mound

 All Star Mind Blown GIF by MLBAll Star Mind Blown GIF by MLB

On this point I very much agree.   The umping behind the plate has been the worst I've seen in the WS in years.  For goodness sake, it's the World Series with supposedly the two best teams in baseball.   Surely, they would send the best Umpire crew.   Evidently they picked the most mediocre crew they could find.  It's making the argument for electronically called balls/strikes stronger - not that I necessarily endorse this.

Anyone notice this is the first WS where the visiting team has won all the games?

Looking forward to seeing Max take the mound.  Should be a good game.

CBS Sports ... Aj Hinch says umpires for call wrong

Before the start of Wednesday night's Game 7, Astros manager AJ Hinch told reporters that he believes MLB got the call wrong, and instead, it was just a bad throw from Peacock. Hinch added that he believed Turner did not interfere. 

I generally liked the plate calling. A few bad calls but I liked they generally called a tight zone making it a little tougher on the pitchers. This means more offensive action.

If there is robo ump one day I would like them to shrink the official zone a ball down and a ball up, imo this would make for a better game considering how good those pitchers are.

Scherzer is all over the place with the command today, not easy to frame that when you don't know where it is going.

Astros dominating the game with a lot or traffic while nats haven't hit anything hard except that soto hit. Only 1 run lead for the stros though so they better capitalize on some of the runners so the nats don't get a chance to tie it with a swing.

Dominik85 posted:

Scherzer is all over the place with the command today, not easy to frame that when you don't know where it is going.

Astros dominating the game with a lot or traffic while nats haven't hit anything hard except that soto hit. Only 1 run lead for the stros though so they better capitalize on some of the runners so the nats don't get a chance to tie it with a swing.

Common man, this is bad... Greinke is throwing 78 and Chirinos is all over the place.  Now they pull Greinke because of it...

I liked that the umps generally called a tight zone and not a lot of borderline calls were called in favor of the pitchers. Sure a few bad ring ups like the correa call last night but generally hitters could take close misses without fearing it was called and they did, both teams were extremely disciplined and chased very few pitches which made it tougher to those super aces in conjunction with the tight zone.

I wonder if that was a directive by mlb because they didn't want the 6 ace starters to dominate the series and instead wanted more offensive action.

I understand some don't like that but mostly the umps called like that on both sides albeit it felt a little more calls went the Astros way although this might be because they were even more patient.

Some bad strike 3s of course but overall very few backwards Ks in the series. This was pretty good to watch, pitchers had to really work for strikes and hitters made it tough on them by not chasing breaking stuff out of the zone much.

Dominik85 posted:

Congrats to the nats. Astros had plenty chances in the first 4-5  innings but didn't capitalize enough on them.

Lots of tough/questionable managerial calls late in the game.  Greinke certainly looked like he was throwing well enough to stay in for the inning.  But the game was lost earlier.  At one point there was a graphic that 10 runners had been LOB and I turned to my son and said that that stat reminded me of a missed PAT in football, seems inconsequential at the time but it will be meaningful later.  Alas.  Congrats to the Nats, I had no dog in the hunt but found myself pulling for them. Always fun to witness history

Congrats to the Nats!  A true underdog season.  I saw them play twice this year, and they did not resemble the team I watched last night.   I was staring at the game 7 box score this morning and their lineup.   It is just not a scary lineup throughout, but boy did they get timely hits throughout the playoffs.  Scherzer was masterful in his mediocrity (which is still pretty darn good!) as he didn't yield more than 2 runs, and kept them in the game.  Everybody knew Scherzer was struggling to find the zone and couldn't get ahead of hitters but somehow he minimized the damage and left a lot of Astros runners on base.  Greinke was unbelievable.   You hate to see a SP pitch like that and not get the win.  Baseball can be cruel.

No doubt once the celebration is over, the Nats will turn their attention to the business of baseball.  They've got some tough decisions to make.   They'll be fine.  

PS...One last thought...I'm wondering what Bryce Harper and Superagent Scott Boras are thinking this morning.  For the superagent it is about money but for the player I think the ring means a lot to them.   Why else would 40+ grown men of all ages storm the field, hug each other, in some cases kiss each other, jump up and down, and act like little kids after winning the World Series.  

I am still in shock and I am a Nat's fan.  I thought the Nat's were toast until Rendon blasted the HR in the 7th followed by Kendrick's 2 run shot off the right pole.  Wow!  Just wow!   The runs added in the 8th and 9th were just icing.

I was surprised that Hinch never brought Cole in.   I know he preferred to bring him in at the beginning of an inning and not in the middle with traffic on the bases, but had he done so it might have given Houston a chance.  Greinke was just cruising and I could see him going the entire game.

The baseball gods must have been smiling on the Nationals. Unbelievable that they were able to win 5 must win games in the post season. 

Harper who?

What a crazy moment it was when Greinke had Soto struck out, but didn't get the strike call. The ensuing walk changed the entire game. I thought it was absurd to take Greinke out at that moment. He had what, 75 pitches? He was still mystifying Nats batters and they were getting increasingly frustrated, which made for short at bats. 


So the really bad non call of strike three (and I agree with others how bad the home late umpiring was) resulted in a really bad manager decision to yank Greinke. Changed the whole game.

Last edited by Rob Kremer
Rob Kremer posted:

What a crazy moment it was when Greinke had Soto struck out, but didn't get the strike call. The ensuing walk changed the entire game. I thought it was absurd to take Greinke out at that moment. He had what, 75 pitches? He was still mystifying Nats batters and they were getting increasingly frustrated, which made for short at bats. 


So the really bad non call of strike three (and I agree with others how bad the home late umpiring was) resulted in a really bad manager decision to yank Greinke. Changed the whole game.

Agreed yanking Greinke was the key decision in the game and the series.  I thought it was crazy given the one run lead, his incredible command, his pitch count, and Cole in the wings.  They were set up.  Disagree that this particular game wasn't well called behind the plate.  I thought it was actually exceptionally well called other than one or two calls, the Soto call being the most egregious. 

 

Well, I didn't have a dog in the fight so hoped for an epic seven game battle.  If anything, I tend to favor the underdog when my team isn't in it and I really like the blue collar bulldog that Scherzer is.  But there is a lot to like on both squads.  So many great story lines and different personalities.  Listenting to post-game player interviews, sounds like there was a real TEAM thing going on with the Nats, but again, I think both squads had that.  Great to see... not always the case with loaded championship teams.  All in all, it was a pretty darn good series, although most of the games generally were not close at the end.  It's just a shame that the umpiring behind the plate, at least the last few games, was really not good and arguably had too much of an impact on the results of several at-bats, among other things.

Wechson, I saw at least 8-10 very bad ball-strike calls last night that were confirmed bad not only by K-zone but by the straight down camera angle and the player reactions.  Son and I were discussing hitting before the game and he made the point how good most MLB players' eyes are for the zone - that when they react with any degree of animation, they are right nine times out of ten.

Yeah, Fenway, my wife commented post-game - she still can't understand why a bunch of grown men act that way after winning  

Congratulations Nats and fans! 

Last edited by cabbagedad

I'm wondering what Bryce Harper and Superagent Scott Boras are thinking this morning.  For the superagent it is about money but for the player I think the ring means a lot to them.

I saw a poll of players on this a couple of years ago. In baseball, football and basketball big money won. Only hockey players chose winning a championship. I’m guessing if you poll only players in their thirties their perspective might change. 

We can second guess Hinch but in my opinion, it was just meant to be for the Nats. Harris has been lights out and most importantly, he executed the pitch that he wanted and Kendrick still hit it out. Plus, if Cole gives up that bomb, people would be asking why didn’t he go with Will Harris. Poor managers can never win unless they win. LoL 

I think I read that Kendrick has one hit all year in 27 at-bats against cutters in the general location. 1-27 but now he’s 2-28.  

If you’ve watch sports enough, you could see it coming. Springer smokes a ball that would have scored two runs but Soto makes the play. Altuve smokes a ball with two on but right at the CF. 

From all the late inning heroics to past the Dodgers and Astros to Scherzer getting to start game seven instead of possibly matching up against Cole in game 5. Don’t forget the very close pitch that was called a ball to Soto to set up the two run pump.  IMO, it was just the year of the Nats and there’s nothing that Houston could have done about it. 

P.S. When does a ball ever hit the bag at and not get away from the first baseman? 

 

Last edited by hshuler
RJM posted:

I'm wondering what Bryce Harper and Superagent Scott Boras are thinking this morning.  For the superagent it is about money but for the player I think the ring means a lot to them.

I saw a poll of players on this a couple of years ago. In baseball, football and basketball big money won. Only hockey players chose winning a championship. I’m guessing if you poll only players in their thirties their perspective might change. 

From the reports that I’ve read/heard, it’s not like the Phillies gave Harper a ridiculous amount more than what the Nats offered. I heard the deals were very similar financially so we’re talking apples to apples. If that’s true, then Harper left because he wanted to, not because of the money. 

hshuler posted:
RJM posted:

I'm wondering what Bryce Harper and Superagent Scott Boras are thinking this morning.  For the superagent it is about money but for the player I think the ring means a lot to them.

I saw a poll of players on this a couple of years ago. In baseball, football and basketball big money won. Only hockey players chose winning a championship. I’m guessing if you poll only players in their thirties their perspective might change. 

From the reports that I’ve read/heard, it’s not like the Phillies gave Harper a ridiculous amount more than what the Nats offered. I heard the deals were very similar financially so we’re talking apples to apples. If that’s true, then Harper left because he wanted to, not because of the money. 

Washington Post: "The Nationals offered Harper a 10-year, $300 million contract near the end of the 2018 season — a deal that, notably, would have given Harper a higher average annual value than the one he ultimately got from the Phillies. However, according to multiple people in the industry, the Nationals’ offer also contained deferrals of up to $100 million, to be paid out over decades — so much deferred money that Major League Baseball raised concerns. Such deferred payments would have significantly reduced its present-day value. Harper’s Phillies contract, by comparison, contains no deferrals."

https://www.washingtonpost.com...iladelphia-phillies/

MidAtlanticDad posted:
hshuler posted:
RJM posted:

I'm wondering what Bryce Harper and Superagent Scott Boras are thinking this morning.  For the superagent it is about money but for the player I think the ring means a lot to them.

I saw a poll of players on this a couple of years ago. In baseball, football and basketball big money won. Only hockey players chose winning a championship. I’m guessing if you poll only players in their thirties their perspective might change. 

From the reports that I’ve read/heard, it’s not like the Phillies gave Harper a ridiculous amount more than what the Nats offered. I heard the deals were very similar financially so we’re talking apples to apples. If that’s true, then Harper left because he wanted to, not because of the money. 

Washington Post: "The Nationals offered Harper a 10-year, $300 million contract near the end of the 2018 season — a deal that, notably, would have given Harper a higher average annual value than the one he ultimately got from the Phillies. However, according to multiple people in the industry, the Nationals’ offer also contained deferrals of up to $100 million, to be paid out over decades — so much deferred money that Major League Baseball raised concerns. Such deferred payments would have significantly reduced its present-day value. Harper’s Phillies contract, by comparison, contains no deferrals."

https://www.washingtonpost.com...iladelphia-phillies/

👍🏾

https://www.google.com/amp/s/a...ffer-45-million-year

cabbagedad posted:

Wechson, I saw at least 8-10 very bad ball-strike calls last night that were confirmed bad not only by K-zone but by the straight down camera angle and the player reactions.  Son and I were discussing hitting before the game and he made the point how good most MLB players' eyes are for the zone - that when they react with any degree of animation, they are right nine times out of ten.

 

I can't vouch for his methods or accuracy but Umpire Auditor on Twitter had Jim Wolf with an 88.9% correct call rate in game 7, which is well below average.

https://twitter.com/UmpireAudi.../1189958290144280576

What I don't get in a series like this is you have a crew of 6. There has to be 2 guys who are recognizably best at working plate.  Use them there.  Leave the others in the field.  (Too much wear and tear for the one best guy to do all the games.)

I'm also wondering -- just because it's off-season now and there is time to wonder, what if, before we go all in on full umpire robot mode, it's done partially. Each team gets a small number of balls-and-strikes challenges, say 3 or 4 per game. For call to be overturned, is has to be egregiously bad, as for example most of those in the tweet above.  This would not have to add any time to the game.  An ump working remotely could watch every pitch live, flag the really bad calls, and send the rulings to a device carried by the plate ump.  Manager signals his challenge and plate ump checks the device for an instant ruling. 

At the same time, let's institute a clock on regular challenges.  Start the clock when the umps grab the headsets. If they can't get a ruling within 60 seconds,  the original call stands.

hshuler posted:
RJM posted:

I'm wondering what Bryce Harper and Superagent Scott Boras are thinking this morning.  For the superagent it is about money but for the player I think the ring means a lot to them.

I saw a poll of players on this a couple of years ago. In baseball, football and basketball big money won. Only hockey players chose winning a championship. I’m guessing if you poll only players in their thirties their perspective might change. 

From the reports that I’ve read/heard, it’s not like the Phillies gave Harper a ridiculous amount more than what the Nats offered. I heard the deals were very similar financially so we’re talking apples to apples. If that’s true, then Harper left because he wanted to, not because of the money. 

 The Nationals offer had money deferred over decades. In net present value the offers weren’t even close. 

Last edited by RJM
JCG posted:
cabbagedad posted:

Wechson, I saw at least 8-10 very bad ball-strike calls last night that were confirmed bad not only by K-zone but by the straight down camera angle and the player reactions.  Son and I were discussing hitting before the game and he made the point how good most MLB players' eyes are for the zone - that when they react with any degree of animation, they are right nine times out of ten.

 

I can't vouch for his methods or accuracy but Umpire Auditor on Twitter had Jim Wolf with an 88.9% correct call rate in game 7, which is well below average.

https://twitter.com/UmpireAudi.../1189958290144280576

What I don't get in a series like this is you have a crew of 6. There has to be 2 guys who are recognizably best at working plate.  Use them there.  Leave the others in the field.  (Too much wear and tear for the one best guy to do all the games.)

I'm also wondering -- just because it's off-season now and there is time to wonder, what if, before we go all in on full umpire robot mode, it's done partially. Each team gets a small number of balls-and-strikes challenges, say 3 or 4 per game. For call to be overturned, is has to be egregiously bad, as for example most of those in the tweet above.  This would not have to add any time to the game.  An ump working remotely could watch every pitch live, flag the really bad calls, and send the rulings to a device carried by the plate ump.  Manager signals his challenge and plate ump checks the device for an instant ruling. 

At the same time, let's institute a clock on regular challenges.  Start the clock when the umps grab the headsets. If they can't get a ruling within 60 seconds,  the original call stands.

JCG, in the same conversation I mentioned above, son had a very similar idea to yours.  One concern, of course, is if that door is opened, will it just lead to robotic ump anyway, to which I have reservations.  I just can't understand how the best of the best at the highest level miss that much and, like you said, why they don't have the best of the crew working behind the dish in playoffs.  That's what I would like to see.

JCG posted:
cabbagedad posted:

Wechson, I saw at least 8-10 very bad ball-strike calls last night that were confirmed bad not only by K-zone but by the straight down camera angle and the player reactions.  Son and I were discussing hitting before the game and he made the point how good most MLB players' eyes are for the zone - that when they react with any degree of animation, they are right nine times out of ten.

 

I can't vouch for his methods or accuracy but Umpire Auditor on Twitter had Jim Wolf with an 88.9% correct call rate in game 7, which is well below average.

https://twitter.com/UmpireAudi.../1189958290144280576

What I don't get in a series like this is you have a crew of 6. There has to be 2 guys who are recognizably best at working plate.  Use them there.  Leave the others in the field.  (Too much wear and tear for the one best guy to do all the games.)

I'm also wondering -- just because it's off-season now and there is time to wonder, what if, before we go all in on full umpire robot mode, it's done partially. Each team gets a small number of balls-and-strikes challenges, say 3 or 4 per game. For call to be overturned, is has to be egregiously bad, as for example most of those in the tweet above.  This would not have to add any time to the game.  An ump working remotely could watch every pitch live, flag the really bad calls, and send the rulings to a device carried by the plate ump.  Manager signals his challenge and plate ump checks the device for an instant ruling. 

At the same time, let's institute a clock on regular challenges.  Start the clock when the umps grab the headsets. If they can't get a ruling within 60 seconds,  the original call stands.

I've argued for this, as tennis has actually done a really good job here.  If anything, the contested line call reveals are dramatic in-and-of themselves and additive to the game.  I wasn't really for the concept until this post season when the 3D graphics made it clear the technology had advanced enough that it would be significantly accurate.  This feels like a smart solve.  Keeps the human element, but tech is added in to enhance the accuracy and ultimately improve the product. 

 

anotherparent posted:

I thought I heard the announcers say last night that the plate umpire was the ump who had the best rating for balls and strikes all season, according to the way that they rate them, that's why he was specifically chosen to work the plate for game 7.

I thought he was pretty good. The Correa punch out was the only obvious miss that I remember. Every other close calls could have gone either way. 

anotherparent posted:

I thought I heard the announcers say last night that the plate umpire was the ump who had the best rating for balls and strikes all season, according to the way that they rate them, that's why he was specifically chosen to work the plate for game 7.

Agree with HShuler.  He was pretty good and definitely better than the other Homeplate umpires that came before him in the World Series.

 

Dominik85 posted:

Gerrit cole apparently declined to be available for post game interviews with the notion he is no longer employed by the astros.

‘Asked by a team official to meet with reporters after their 6-2 loss to the Washington Nationals on Wednesday, Cole, who was wearing a Boras Corp. hat, said, "I'm not employed by the team."

However, after agreeing to interviews, he started out with, "I guess as a representative of myself ..."’

Everyone knows that he’s getting paid and he’s earned it but do you really want to come across as it’s about nothing but money?

A different perspective on the youthfulness of Soto, as part of an MLB article...

Juan Soto danced in the middle of the visitors' clubhouse at Minute Maid Park. His teammates were pouring champagne and beer on his head, and for the first time in his career, Soto was able to celebrate with a beer in his hand, instead of the sparkling water he used during the first four celebrations.

“I’m thankful to be celebrating this with my first beer with these guys,” said Soto, who turned 21 last week. “This is incredible.”   "

hshuler posted:
Dominik85 posted:

Gerrit cole apparently declined to be available for post game interviews with the notion he is no longer employed by the astros.

‘Asked by a team official to meet with reporters after their 6-2 loss to the Washington Nationals on Wednesday, Cole, who was wearing a Boras Corp. hat, said, "I'm not employed by the team."

However, after agreeing to interviews, he started out with, "I guess as a representative of myself ..."’

Everyone knows that he’s getting paid and he’s earned it but do you really want to come across as it’s about nothing but money?

Agree but from what I've read he was livid at not coming into the game. More frustration about the way they lost than a selfishness thing. Probably didn't realize how it reflects on him but thats how it is with athletes sometimes. 

Dominik85 posted:

Gerrit cole apparently declined to be available for post game interviews with the notion he is no longer employed by the astros.

Given his contract status would be the same if the Astros won, I wonder if he would have declined the interview under those circumstances.  Probably not.    He just had his cranky pants on!

 

See the source image

 

Last edited by fenwaysouth
PABaseball posted:
hshuler posted:
Dominik85 posted:

Gerrit cole apparently declined to be available for post game interviews with the notion he is no longer employed by the astros.

 

Agree but from what I've read he was livid at not coming into the game. More frustration about the way they lost than a selfishness thing. Probably didn't realize how it reflects on him but thats how it is with athletes sometimes. 

Being a gracious winner is (relatively) very easy.  Losing game 7 of the WS, then giving interviews to national media would be extremely hard--even harder if you were your team's best pitcher and the manager had chosen not to use you.  Talking with the media is part of the job description for a player like Cole, but I'm not sure how a person could ever really prepare for that situation.  I hope it was just a moment of frustration, rather than an indication of his character.  I admit my initial reaction was to judge him pretty harshly for this; but maybe he deserves the benefit of the doubt.  (Although I'm sure Verlander also was feeling mighty frustrated given his postseason record in 2019, and so far as I know he handled the media without incident.)   

Maybe deserves its own thread, but this article on ESPN.com is interesting re: why postseason games are so long:  

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story...ries-games-last-long

In particular, there is this:  "Postseason commercial breaks are longer than regular-season breaks, by about 50 seconds. There are 17 between-inning breaks (one after every half inning except the final one), plus pitching change breaks (which are also longer in the postseason), so that adds around 17 minutes. This is baked into every postseason game, so if you want to know what an average postseason game is, start at 3 hours, 20 minutes."

As a Nats fan, I have to say, their winning game 6 and then the whole thing got the ump off the hook for that interference call.

Generally, the umpiring in this WS was just awful, and in the HD era, it was sorely exposed.  Trea Turner in particular must've ticked someone off at some point, because he got rung at least 3 times on third strikes that weren't really that close.  Robot umps?  Sign me up.  And oh yeah, let's not forget that on the first play of game 6, Turner was called out at first on a play that had to be reviewed to get the call right.  But hey, the ump only missed it by like 5 feet's worth of throw.  Everyone saw it but him.

As for Cole, I was kind of surprised by the post-game discussion.  His facial expressions and body language while warming up the first time indicated he didn't feel he could do it.  He tried to loosen up later in the game, same thing, then didn't come in.  My impression was they would've used him and didn't only because he just hadn't recovered enough to go.  If that wasn't the case, why all the grimaces and warmups cut short?  In any event, those who have followed Cole know that his talent is his calling card but he's not what you would call a great teammate otherwise.  His comments after game 7 were not slips of the lip so much as catching the real GC with his guard down.  My guess is Boras got him on the phone and helped him to try to rehab his image the day after, so that it wouldn't become a negative in his forthcoming free agency.  In which he figures to nab $30 million plus per year for 7 years. 

As for the Nats, it's really good to see them get this, especially since it's the last hurrah for the group on the field.  Only 12 of the starters, key subs and pitchers used in the World Series are under contract for next year.  I don't see how the Nats can pay what they owe Scherzer and Corbin, then also pay $30m/year to Rendon and Strasburg, too.  They aren't going to pay Zimmerman per the $18m team option; expect the team to pay his buyout and then maybe try to sign him for a far lesser amount to be a part-time guy.  Turner, Soto and Robles return but guys like Eaton, Kendrick, Cabrera, Dozier and Hudson have to max their value now, as it could be the last time they get to in each of their careers.

And since they won, it won't be sour grapes for me to put in my 2 cents about the interference call and the rule generally, as an academic point.

Before we do anything else, does anyone disagree that the rule needs to be changed with respect to the penalty assessed?  Let's say you call Turner out.  Why does Yan Gomes have to return to first base?  OK, so he doesn't get to stay at third, but no one was making any play on him at 2nd.  Sans interference, he would've been at 2nd.  He should keep that.  The rule has always said that he has to be sent back, so the rule was properly applied, I know, but to paraphrase Mr. Macawber, the rule is a ass.  If nothing else, change this.

As to the application of the rule, I don't know how Davey Martinez lasted as long as he did before he totally lost it.  Just a horrible, horrible call.

Most such interference calls happen on bunts or dribblers that stay right around home plate.  Why?  Because that's when the runner gets into the throwing lane the fielder has to use.  In this case, the ball Turner hit bounced about 45 feet up the third base line.  Peacock had a clear throwing lane to the base.  He threw into the runner, and in fact threw a tailing sinker to boot.  Heck, I think Turner had the play beat, and the most he got out of his contact with Gurriel was the extra base when the ball got away.  But saving Peacock from his own horrible throw is not what the rule is for, so applying it to this play was just wrong, wrong, wrong.

The rule requires that Turner BOTH (a) interfere and (b) be outside the runner's lane.  The runner's lane is like the batter's box, in the sense that it's a safe harbor space.  If a batter is hit by a batted ball that's in fair territory, he's out -- unless he's still in the batter's box.  Part of the batter's box is in fair territory, mind you.  But if he's in the batter's box, he's not out.  The rule says that even a ball in fair territory is a dead ball and treated as if it were foul.

Similarly, if the runner is in the runner's lane, he cannot be deemed guilty of interference even if the ball hits him.  (Unless he pulls an A-Rod and swats at it or some such.)  The runner's lane is privileged space.

But a runner not in the lane is not out just because a ball hits him.  He still has to be deemed to have interfered.  This is where the umpires screwed up.  Turner was not in the runner's lane, so he's not in the safe space.  But he also didn't interfere.  The mere act of running slightly outside the lane is not interference.  Peacock had a clean throwing lane and Peacock threw wildly.  That wasn't because of anything Turner did.  Turner didn't alter his path, he didn't raise his arms, nothing.  He just ran to the base.  I saw no act of interference.

Think of the very common play where the SS has his throw sail and the 1B comes off the bag for the grab-and-swipe tag attempt.  On most of those plays the batter-runner is outside the runner's lane, in fair territory.  But if the 1B has the ball come out of his glove, is the batter-runner called out?  NEVER.  Well, the Peacock-Turner play is just like that play.

Maybe the rule could be revised to make this, the standard understanding and application, more clear.  But to my mind, the problem is not the rule language. 

The problem is, we had a World Series that's supposed to have the best of the best on the field, and MLB put umpires out there who embarrassed themselves all 7 games.  The only saving grace is that, as best I could tell, it didn't decide any one game, nor the outcome of the Series.

 

Last edited by Midlo Dad

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