which do yall think is more important in a quality catcher
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Good question behindthedish,
Which is more important? They are both VERY important. Common sense should explain that if you can't block a ball the runner will ALWAYS advance no matter how strong your arm. That would lead one to believe that blocking is more important. Maybe blocking is more important in that one game --- at that one instant --- but looking at that alone can lull you away from reality.
Change the question just a little and ask ---- Which is more valuable, arm strength or blocking? Then the answer will always be ARM STRENGTH. Why so?? --- For the most part blocking can be taught and arm strength cannot be taught.
Fungo
Which is more important? They are both VERY important. Common sense should explain that if you can't block a ball the runner will ALWAYS advance no matter how strong your arm. That would lead one to believe that blocking is more important. Maybe blocking is more important in that one game --- at that one instant --- but looking at that alone can lull you away from reality.
Change the question just a little and ask ---- Which is more valuable, arm strength or blocking? Then the answer will always be ARM STRENGTH. Why so?? --- For the most part blocking can be taught and arm strength cannot be taught.
Fungo
quote:For the most part blocking can be taught and arm strength cannot be taught.
Fungo
Thats the best answer to this question.
very well put.
but would you rather play a catcher with a gun but lots of passed balls or a catcher with a average arm but can keep the ball in front?
but would you rather play a catcher with a gun but lots of passed balls or a catcher with a average arm but can keep the ball in front?
I would much rather play the player today that blocks the ball with an average arm. Bottom line your catcher has to be able to block balls to prevent runners from advancing. I understand I would have to give up some stolen bases because of the average arm, but hopefully my offense can overcome that.
BUT --- If I'm looking to build a team for next year I would take the catcher with a "gun" and teach him to block balls and if I'm a good coach I can virtually eliminate the stolen base.
Fungo
BUT --- If I'm looking to build a team for next year I would take the catcher with a "gun" and teach him to block balls and if I'm a good coach I can virtually eliminate the stolen base.
Fungo
Footwork and mechanics can be taught, though. And conditioning can increase arm strength. A quick release and accurate throw can make up for a significant amount of arm strength.
Fungo makes a great point, but there is still missing parts. Is it just blocking and arm strength, because accuracy is very important. I think the question needs to be modified to: Whats more valuable, blocking or pop time (to the tag). Now if we are talking in extremes, where one catcher has great blocking skills but two bounces the ball to second, and one cather can't get down in front of a ball in the dirt, but zips the ball in there (assuming the whole arm strength thing is talking about a good arm with accuracy). So catcher A can block and catcher B can throw. So with A behind the plate and the ball is in the dirt, the runner gets a later break, because the ball hasnt scooted away, and he still has a big chance of getting thrown out. With catcher B, 1 base is automatic, once the runner sees that ball hit the ground, he's off. He holds at 1 base, because otherwise hes dead. But that difference is only with wild pitches. On EVERY other pitch, catcher B is holding that runner back, but they all run on catcher A.
The reason I responded to this post is that it touches home with my son. He was a catcher/P that was average at best in blocking skills but with a very strong arm that touched 95 mph off the mound and a poptime to 2b that was recorded as low as 1.69 sec. Prior to his graduation from high school he was invited to come to St. Louis for a pre-draft workout with the St. Louis Cardinals. After going through the full workout, the scouting director and a few scouts approached me and we went into the pre-draft “negotiations” talks. I specifically asked why they wanted to draft my son as a catcher when it was obvious he needed work blocking balls and receiving. The scouting director explained --- “We can teach your son in the areas he is weak ---------we cannot teach what your son already has.” They drafted him in the 5th round as a catcher.
He did not sign out of high school but attended college instead. As a freshman he was the starting catcher and his lack of blocking/receiving skills showed as he led the SEC in passed balls --- but his arm strength also showed as he cut down would be base stealers and had the highest “caught stealing” percentage in the SEC. He caught very little his sophomore year in college because they used him as a pitcher.
He went back to catching his junior year with some improvement in his receiving skills which helped his cause and garnered him first team SEC catcher and again he was drafted into pro baseball as a catcher. After two years as a catcher in pro ball his receiving skills (or lack of) forced the club to move him to 3rd base. I know none of this would have happened had he not been blessed with a strong arm. IF he had great blocking/receiving skills I’m sure he would have been a good catcher but his path would have taken a much different route. As Texan and Catch43 both point out the role of catcher is not JUST blocking balls in the dirt or having a strong arm it is a very complicated position that is more than just “catch and throw”.
Fungo
He did not sign out of high school but attended college instead. As a freshman he was the starting catcher and his lack of blocking/receiving skills showed as he led the SEC in passed balls --- but his arm strength also showed as he cut down would be base stealers and had the highest “caught stealing” percentage in the SEC. He caught very little his sophomore year in college because they used him as a pitcher.
He went back to catching his junior year with some improvement in his receiving skills which helped his cause and garnered him first team SEC catcher and again he was drafted into pro baseball as a catcher. After two years as a catcher in pro ball his receiving skills (or lack of) forced the club to move him to 3rd base. I know none of this would have happened had he not been blessed with a strong arm. IF he had great blocking/receiving skills I’m sure he would have been a good catcher but his path would have taken a much different route. As Texan and Catch43 both point out the role of catcher is not JUST blocking balls in the dirt or having a strong arm it is a very complicated position that is more than just “catch and throw”.
Fungo
I rank the catching skills in this order:
1. Receiving - Making your pitcher look good and getting strikes in the most important. Plus, you do it the most in a game.
2. Blocking - Free Bases will kill you. Plus, you need to give your pitcher confidence that he can bury that curveball and changeup down or even in the dirt and you will stop it.
3. Throwing - While still important, throwing happens the least of the two above in a game. If you can master the two skills above first, then you can focus more on this. But, if struggle with the first two skills above, it probably doesn't matter how good you are at throwing, you will not have yourself in position to make a good throw (receiving) or even having a chance to throw if the ball goes to the backstop or bounces too far away from you (blocking).
Just my .02 and how I approach catching in our program.
1. Receiving - Making your pitcher look good and getting strikes in the most important. Plus, you do it the most in a game.
2. Blocking - Free Bases will kill you. Plus, you need to give your pitcher confidence that he can bury that curveball and changeup down or even in the dirt and you will stop it.
3. Throwing - While still important, throwing happens the least of the two above in a game. If you can master the two skills above first, then you can focus more on this. But, if struggle with the first two skills above, it probably doesn't matter how good you are at throwing, you will not have yourself in position to make a good throw (receiving) or even having a chance to throw if the ball goes to the backstop or bounces too far away from you (blocking).
Just my .02 and how I approach catching in our program.
Just got home from work and saw this great thread.
My 2-cents.....read Fungo's posts.
My 2-cents.....read Fungo's posts.
quote:Originally posted by Fungo:
I would much rather play the player today that blocks the ball with an average arm. Bottom line your catcher has to be able to block balls to prevent runners from advancing. I understand I would have to give up some stolen bases because of the average arm, but hopefully my offense can overcome that.
BUT --- If I'm looking to build a team for next year I would take the catcher with a "gun" and teach him to block balls and if I'm a good coach I can virtually eliminate the stolen base.
Fungo
Agree completely with this post.
Can you really teach ANY GUY to block and receive - I dont think so - there has to be some athletic abilities including quickness. The days of just taking the big guy and putting him behind the plate are dwindling.
There is also a need for a baseball savy kid behind the plate. When to throw to 1st, 2nd or 3rd, what to do when teams use trick plays, etc - you dont want someone back there that cant react quickly and inteligently.
Score tied, bottom of 9th, man on 3rd - you want a player back there not just a guy with an arm.
I know showcases measure only a few categories but come game time I want the complete package not just arm and blocking.
Oh yeah, he better be able to hit, do BP when everyone else has gone home plus more Im sure.
There is also a need for a baseball savy kid behind the plate. When to throw to 1st, 2nd or 3rd, what to do when teams use trick plays, etc - you dont want someone back there that cant react quickly and inteligently.
Score tied, bottom of 9th, man on 3rd - you want a player back there not just a guy with an arm.
I know showcases measure only a few categories but come game time I want the complete package not just arm and blocking.
Oh yeah, he better be able to hit, do BP when everyone else has gone home plus more Im sure.
This hits home at the moment, having just finished up a big tournament in which 2 pivotal games were lost in part due to catching (our second man.)
He can gun it, but the areas in which he "lost it" for us were:
1. Set-up: Collapsed inward on his ankles and back on his heels, had a hard time moving toward outside pitches. After a number of passed balls that advanced runners/stole home, pitchers began throwing more toward mid-plate where catcher was more proficient, which power hitters loved.
2. Set-up: No secondary position with runners on, increased pop-time and threw off accuracy to 1st base in particular. Three throwdowns to first ended up in right field because of balance and timing.
3. Judgement on called pitches: Had a hard-time with outside and curves, therefore reluctant to call those pitches, preferring fastball high. See #1. Power hitters loved that.
4. Judgement on throwdowns: 2x tried a throwdown at 2nd with man on 3rd (2 outs) and lost the run coming from 3rd due to slower pop-time created by poor mechanics. Sometimes it's better to defer the throwdown and get the batter. Never dawned on him.
5. Receiving: glove movement turned marginal strikes into balls. A huge problem. More walks.
My aggrevation at the moment? Coaches who blame the pitchers when it isn't always a pitching problem. They assume the pitcher just had better days when paired with #1 catcher--the reason for success is a lucky day. They just don't always know what good catching looks like and the role of a catcher in getting wins/loses.
GRRRRRR!!!!! My point? Everything is important. I agree that if you want to win today, you need the guys with receiving skills. But if you have time to teach those skills to a guy with a gun, who is also an intelligent player, you might be wise to do so.
He can gun it, but the areas in which he "lost it" for us were:
1. Set-up: Collapsed inward on his ankles and back on his heels, had a hard time moving toward outside pitches. After a number of passed balls that advanced runners/stole home, pitchers began throwing more toward mid-plate where catcher was more proficient, which power hitters loved.
2. Set-up: No secondary position with runners on, increased pop-time and threw off accuracy to 1st base in particular. Three throwdowns to first ended up in right field because of balance and timing.
3. Judgement on called pitches: Had a hard-time with outside and curves, therefore reluctant to call those pitches, preferring fastball high. See #1. Power hitters loved that.
4. Judgement on throwdowns: 2x tried a throwdown at 2nd with man on 3rd (2 outs) and lost the run coming from 3rd due to slower pop-time created by poor mechanics. Sometimes it's better to defer the throwdown and get the batter. Never dawned on him.
5. Receiving: glove movement turned marginal strikes into balls. A huge problem. More walks.
My aggrevation at the moment? Coaches who blame the pitchers when it isn't always a pitching problem. They assume the pitcher just had better days when paired with #1 catcher--the reason for success is a lucky day. They just don't always know what good catching looks like and the role of a catcher in getting wins/loses.
GRRRRRR!!!!! My point? Everything is important. I agree that if you want to win today, you need the guys with receiving skills. But if you have time to teach those skills to a guy with a gun, who is also an intelligent player, you might be wise to do so.
Quillgirl -
I saw a similar thing in my son's playoff game a couple days ago. Opposing catcher, obviously an athletic kid with a good arm...
But his technique was bad and he seemed lazy. Several times tried to catch rather than block pitches in the dirt. Our team advanced at least 6 bases because of it, one time getting home.
What astounds me is that coaches allow it to happen. Our coaching staff would crawl down my kids throat if he did anything close to what this kid did.
In your case, why would the coaches put up with that kid behind the plate?
No "man on base" stance? Takes marginal pitches out of the zone?
What, are the coaches clueless?
I saw a similar thing in my son's playoff game a couple days ago. Opposing catcher, obviously an athletic kid with a good arm...
But his technique was bad and he seemed lazy. Several times tried to catch rather than block pitches in the dirt. Our team advanced at least 6 bases because of it, one time getting home.
What astounds me is that coaches allow it to happen. Our coaching staff would crawl down my kids throat if he did anything close to what this kid did.
In your case, why would the coaches put up with that kid behind the plate?
No "man on base" stance? Takes marginal pitches out of the zone?
What, are the coaches clueless?
Rob,
Having gone through a season with these coaches, I don't think they understand the position very well. I really don't think they know what skills to look for or what proper mechanics should be in evidence. I don't blame our #2 guy. He could be taught, but I think the teaching will need to come from an outside instructor.
Having gone through a season with these coaches, I don't think they understand the position very well. I really don't think they know what skills to look for or what proper mechanics should be in evidence. I don't blame our #2 guy. He could be taught, but I think the teaching will need to come from an outside instructor.
The sad thing is, Rob, that many coaches up to and including the hs level are clueless about the catching position. There are so many aspects to the position (and so much to teach about baseball to the entire team) that many seem to be scared off.
Fortunately, a lot of the players who choose the position are bright enough and resourceful enough to study the slot. And if they're lucky, they can find a coach that specializes in catching.
I, too, would come down on the side of blocking being more important that arm strength in general; it allows the pitchers more latitude in pitches thrown and limits runner advancement. However, that's the challenge with being a catcher --- many talents make up a good one and the Most Important Aspect will change from game to game.
Trying to choose one over the other would be a bit like asking 'what's the most important ingredient in a cake?'.
Cinically, I'd say that for advancement, hitting is the most important talent. How many times have you heard something like, "He's a great catcher, he's hitting .400 with 18 home runs."
Fortunately, a lot of the players who choose the position are bright enough and resourceful enough to study the slot. And if they're lucky, they can find a coach that specializes in catching.
I, too, would come down on the side of blocking being more important that arm strength in general; it allows the pitchers more latitude in pitches thrown and limits runner advancement. However, that's the challenge with being a catcher --- many talents make up a good one and the Most Important Aspect will change from game to game.
Trying to choose one over the other would be a bit like asking 'what's the most important ingredient in a cake?'.
Cinically, I'd say that for advancement, hitting is the most important talent. How many times have you heard something like, "He's a great catcher, he's hitting .400 with 18 home runs."
quote:The scouting director explained --- “We can teach your son in the areas he is weak ---------we cannot teach what your son already has.”
This thread has been interesting and it raises an interesting debate about tools versus skills. The above quote by the scouting director sounds great in theory. A "tools only" analysis sometimes breaks down in practice imho. I understand people becoming enamored with a strong arm or a power bat and claiming they can teach the other skills. Some kids maybe cannot be taught because they don't have the "ability" to devlop the necessary skills for a given position. I could be way off base with that but that is my suspicion.
Agreed, Orlando. That has been our experience with son becoming a catcher. You are on your own in learning skills. Most coaches don't have expertise beyond basics to offer players in this postion. We've been fortunate in finding private instruction and a couple of camps that allowed him to become proficient. (We found that both Clemson and Tech offer intensive, advanced-level catcher instruction in their camps for older players.)
Couldn't agree more about the hitting. That's key!
Couldn't agree more about the hitting. That's key!
I guess we have been very lucky. My son has had excellent catching coaching both on his various teams and in the private stuff we have arranged on his own.
His coach in the 7th grade was a current D1 catcher, who taught him a great deal about proper receiving, and who didn't cut him any slack at all when he failed to stick pitches or block properly.
Now, in HS, our team actually has a catching coach, who knows what he is doing. I guess we have been spoiled.
His coach in the 7th grade was a current D1 catcher, who taught him a great deal about proper receiving, and who didn't cut him any slack at all when he failed to stick pitches or block properly.
Now, in HS, our team actually has a catching coach, who knows what he is doing. I guess we have been spoiled.
Yes, you have, and hooray for it! 
We were also fortunate to find a local coach for catching, and, like quill, a couple of pitcher-catcher camps that taught catchers as opposed to some I've heard of who pretty much just use the catchers to receive the pitchers.
In my son's senior year at hs, they brought in an older gentleman who was called the catching coach. My son came home and said 'If I ever wondered how Yogi Berra was taught the position, now I know'. With a little diplomacy and mutual respect, however, they worked it out between themselves to get the younger catchers some coaching.
Hey, diplomacy --- THERE'S a talent a good catcher needs! Ya'll know those pitchers....
We were also fortunate to find a local coach for catching, and, like quill, a couple of pitcher-catcher camps that taught catchers as opposed to some I've heard of who pretty much just use the catchers to receive the pitchers.
In my son's senior year at hs, they brought in an older gentleman who was called the catching coach. My son came home and said 'If I ever wondered how Yogi Berra was taught the position, now I know'. With a little diplomacy and mutual respect, however, they worked it out between themselves to get the younger catchers some coaching.
Hey, diplomacy --- THERE'S a talent a good catcher needs! Ya'll know those pitchers....
quote:Originally posted by Orlando:
The sad thing is, Rob, that many coaches up to and including the hs level are clueless about the catching position. There are so many aspects to the position (and so much to teach about baseball to the entire team) that many seem to be scared off.
I agree with this. I have seen many youth and HS practices where the catchers will do the following in a practice:
Shag Fungos
Work Team Defense
Hit
Maybe Half Heartedly Catch A Bullpen
There is no time for individual instruction. BUT, in a game when the catcher doesn't block the ball with the runner at third, the coach gets on the catcher for not blocking it. Well, if he has not been shown and taught the proper techniques and drilled on them, the coaches should be held responsible.
I can honestly say in our hs program from the varsity level down to the freshman level, our catchers are drilled, drilled, and drilled some more. They know and understand the techniques and skills needed to setup, receive, block, ball transfer, throwing, and executing plays at the plate. We spend anywhere from 30-35 minutes each day on individual position drill work (INF, OF, P, C) each day at practice, plus individual time before and after practice. We take pride in our fundamentals.
In my mind the catcher is 1B in importance on the field (Pitcher being 1A) and we train our catchers with that mentality.
Here is me--green with envy and hoppin' mad.
If it wasn't so cold up there, I'd track down your school and move to Iowa, catchingcoacho5, just to get that coaching! Those are exactly the "catcher warmups" I see as typical for both school and travel teams. Not all, but most.
Blocking and arm strength are important, no doubt, but I've seen catchers who were only average in these skills win games for their teams, because they were great students of pitching and hitting. They were masters at analyzing their opponents swings and calling for just the right pitches in order to exploit the opposing hitter's weaknesses. If the pitcher was on, very few, if any, batters would ever reach base. Thus, blocking and arm strength lose their value when games are called and pitched well. They become more important with poor pitch selection and when a pitcher is struggling.
Id say blocking is more important.It changes a whole gameplan if a pitcher feels confident enough in his catchers blocking ability to throw a curve 0-2 in the count with RISP.
Id also say start the catcher who can block and has an average arm over the gunslinger.An average arm can still be accurate,and still see results.Id likely fall into the blocking,average arm category too.I block very well,in all situations,but my average pop time is around 2.25-2.3(though I havent timed since may,so Im willing to bet its a little better)
Id also say start the catcher who can block and has an average arm over the gunslinger.An average arm can still be accurate,and still see results.Id likely fall into the blocking,average arm category too.I block very well,in all situations,but my average pop time is around 2.25-2.3(though I havent timed since may,so Im willing to bet its a little better)
