Need some advice re: HS pitching

2019Dad,

 

My son found that cleaning up his take away and having less counter rotation allowed him to be much more consistent. He was still able to reach solid hip/shoulder rotation though it seemed to be quicker. There was less arm drag and he seemed to be behind the ball much better which actually increased his velocity some and made both the curve and the change more consistent. He also noticed a dramatic increase in arm side run. This staighter approach allowed him to really go after it on occasion without over rotating. We used Zach Greinke as a model. I also like the way Grienke keeps the left hip closed til just before foot plant. I am not saying that your son should emulate Greinke. He is just a good example of someone who goes pretty straight from a 3/4 slot with exceptional command.

 

Best regards,

 

Ted

I read this entire thread.... man have I learned a lot ... I wonder how many of these young players really care if they play in college or beyond and how much they are trying to gain the acceptance of dad? 

 

Playing D1 baseball is not easy to do. Many many just do not have the body to be able to develop the skills needed to play at this level.  I wonder why is seems all the younger players parents that come to this board are so hell bent on  D1 baseball.

 

It is very very difficult even with the body and skill set.  As most of you know I have 4 pitchers, and all will play college baseball...I used to be so caught up in it all I am sure I was ruining the time they had in high school... fighting with coaches, going to camps, talking to coaches ... let me tell you , you can add velo to an extent, you can get better control, but will it be enough for D1 and pro ball, probably not..... So where does that leave the player that has done all he could , dad has spent every nickel and then it does not work out , the dream is not achieved..... Does the player then feel like a failure?  Does he resent the fact that he was pressured into all this baseball and lessons, camps, tryouts etc....

 

When 2014 was a soph he was 86...  I thought hey we can work on this and he will get to 90 , he will get D1 offers, he will get drafted.... this kid worked his tail off and for whatever reason he did not get to 90.... Now as a soph in college at a Juco, he does throw 90+  but it took years and years.....

 

Conversely, 2018 has hit 90 a few times.... and the colleges like i drat... but will he be 95 as a sr.... will he get drafted ...I have no freaking idea... maybe , maybe not... maybe he decides he wants to go fishing.... I will say that while I have learned that you can develop velo to a certain extent, I have learned from 2018 that really you either have it or you don't..... so why ruin the best years of a players life, putting so more pressure on them to improve to chase something that most of the time they do not have the god given ability in the first place.

 

Good job dad. You finally get it!!!!

 

 

Oh boy...  thought this was another thread I was done with.  Backdoor I am usually right with most of your posts.  But I do wish we as a group here would stop making assumptions.  Speaking for the younger crowd I don't know anyone who has said they are pushing their son to do something he doesn't want to do.  Don't know anyone who said son is seeking their approval.  Don't know anyone who is imposing their goals on their kid.  Do they exist?  No doubt.  On here?  Probably somewhere.  But like the maniac youth baseball parent I think they are fewer and further between than we may think.  Why do so many want to play D1?  Cause its the highest level!!  Kind of a simple concept.  Most of them probably want to play at a too 25 type.  Only natural.  Most of them probably dream of being a big league ballplayer someday.  Perfectly healthy and normal.  Will they feel like a failure if they don't get there?  I don't know, I can't guess at every kids level of mental toughness and emotional state of mind.  Do we as adults feel like a failure when we don't achieve a goal at work or in our personal lives?  I suppose depends on the person.  Should we stop giving ourselves goals so we don't feel bad when we don't achieve them?  My son has a dream.  I love that he has a dream.  I love more that he has a work ethic to try and achieve his dream.  He may or may not make it.  But let's not act like the odds of playing D1 baseball are the same as winning the lottery or becoming president of the united states. Yes you need some gifts in the first place.  But if you are playing on a travel team (and succeeding) which plays at a high level your pool of competition is so so much smaller.  What are your odds then?  1 in 20?  1 in 10?  I have no idea but its not 1 in a 1000 or 1 in a million I will tell you that.  My son will be 6'4" or 6'5" conservatively.  Does that mean he will pitch D1?  No.  Does it increase his odds dramatically?  Yes.  Will he be happy playing a minor role on a good team?  In his case yes.  He gets into that.  Will he feel like a failure if he plays D2, NAIA, or D3?  I hope not.  I will do my best to not make him feel that way.  But I will continue to support his dream.  I refuse to tell him those guys are just so great you could never be like them.  I am going to tell my son, "you can do it, I believe in you.  Eliminate negativity from your life.  Surround yourself with people who support your dream and can help you achieve it. Don't listen to the nay sayers.  It will be that much sweeter for you because you will look back and know you earned it.  You have just enough athletic ability to do it but not so much that it will come easily.  You will have to outwork others.  You need to ask yourself every day what have I done today to help me reach my goals.  You have to have a burning desire inside you.  It takes an adult commitment out of a kid to do what you want to do, thats why its so hard.  And in the end you have to accept that it may not happen.  Are you sure this is what you want.  I keep asking you this because I want you to know you can walk away anytime and I will love you no less.  We will still have father son time together.  We will knock the rust off the travel trailer and the dust off the fishing equipment and finally get some more fishing and camping time!  But if you are telling.me this is still YOUR dream then I will do everything in my power to help you achieve it."

In fact that conversation is had almost verbatim about a half dozen times a year.

I was going to post that I was sorry for hurting anyone's feelings by posting my opinions on the younger players parents posts.  But then I thought about it and said no I am sticking to what I said.

 

I have no problem with parents supporting their players, that goes without saying.  We are all here to support and help.  But sometimes, maybe not in every case, the rose colored glasses are so thick it does not seem to matter what anyone says. 

 

People come on this board and state how great 2019 or 2020 or 2018 is now, or is GOING TO BE.... my point is you have no idea how tall, what type of quickness, bat speed, velocity , foot speed these children are going to have when they are 19-22 years old.

 

If anyone got the impression that I was saying that a certain player was no good enough then please do not. I do not know or have ever seen any of these players. 

 

But I do know when parents start predicting the future your on a path to no where.  Playing on a good travel team helps but its not the cure. Lessons help but again if you do not have the talent , body and arm.... it is likely not going to happen.  Like it or not we are not hearing from the folks whose players are having a huge amount of success .

When parents come on hear and ask for advice and then do not at least entertain the advice given your wasting everyone's time. 

 

The fact is until you live it you don't know that's why you are asking the people on this board that have gone through it.

 

"Why do so many want to play D1?  Cause its the highest level!!  Kind of a simple concept"   my point exactly, there are so many different levels of good baseball, some D3's would mob a D1, Tampa is a D2  excellent program.... this statement just shows my you have no idea what you are talking about.

 

"But if you are playing on a travel team (and succeeding) which plays at a high level your pool of competition is so so much smaller.  What are your odds then?  1 in 20?  1 in 10?  I have no idea but its not 1 in a 1000 or 1 in a million I will tell you that.  My son will be 6'4" or 6'5" conservatively.  Does that mean he will pitch D1?  No.  Does it increase his odds dramatically?  Yes. "

it does not increase his odds dramatically, it might increase his odds somewhat.....

 

All I am saying is set them up where they can succeed.... playing "travel ball on an elite team " is a long way from being in the rotation at a top 100 D1 program....

Maybe I just see the new folks making assumptions, and making statements like, will be and should be.... and it reminds me of the mistakes I made a long the way

 

I hope they all do well and some will make it to D1 ball, and then they will have two jobs, student and athlete

 

sorry for the typo's it's late

 

Not sure what everyone is referring to when mentioning "elite" teams.

 

I think my description of an "elite" travel team would be far different than most.

 

The truly elite teams usually have a couple or more pitchers that can pitch at any college program.  Some, once in awhile will have nothing but DI prospects.  So if someone is pitching on one of those true "elite" teams, they are probably throwing upper 80s to 90+. The best ones get drafted early and sign, for the most part.  

 

Anyway, I never cared about the odds, but if I did here is how I would look at it.  You have to be extremely good to pitch on those teams I am referring to.  If you're good enough to pitch on one of those top teams, the odds are very good that DI colleges will be making offers.  However, for most pitchers the odds of being on one of those truly "elite" travel teams is a real long shot.

 

It's all about what people consider "elite".   Elite pitchers, whether they're on an elite team or not have very good odds of getting drafted or playing DI. Then again what are the odds of being one of those?

2019 Dad,

 

You know from being at TBR velocity, command and control can be taught. You also know that it takes time to reestablish command and control once you move away from a balance point, command and control style of pitching. If that was not true there would be no Fulmer, Kershaw, Gibson, Sale, etc. 

 

Here are some things that keep me awake at night just thinking they still exist that might help you in your time of reflection:

 

"Instructors" teaching without video analysis...

 

Parents thinking just because a coach played pro ball or high school ball they are naturally going to be a the best instructor for their son...

 

Training the wrong energy system for pitchers....

 

Not training a pitcher to be explosive....

 

Coaches who do not care to improve their knowledge base....remember when "the world use to believe a human could not run a 4 minute mile"

 

Coaches taking credit for a player's success without acknowledging the thousands of dollars in lessons, countless hours of practice away from the coach, numerous PG events they attended and the player's unwavering passion to be the best he could be.

 

These are MY thoughts and are not intended to offend anyone....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Backdoor,  at this point I will speak only for myself.  I defy you to spend countless hours looking at my posts and find anywhere that I called my son 'great' or predicted he will play D1.  As for your statement that I have no idea what I am talking about because I state the obvious that D1 is the highest level...  not even sure what to say about something that should be so obvious.  Because a small amount of lower level teams can beat a small amount of higher level teams does not change the fact that D1 is the highest level of college baseball.  I can't even believe someone would be called on to defend such a statement.   As for 'predictions'  predictions are what they are...  predictions.   Are we not allowed to make those?  As we all know predictions may prove to be accurate or inaccurate.  You may guess low you may guess high.  So what?  As you have doubled down so will I.  My son is currently 6'2 1/2" in bare feet.  Just turned 14 in september.  I am 6'4".  He is ahead of where I was at his age.  His body is very reminiscent of mine at that age.  I remain pretty comfortable with 6'4" to 6'5".  Not.sure if I have ever made an exit velocity prediction cause it really doesn't matter as him being a college positional player is extremely unlikely.  But since he has an 82mph exit velocity with wood as of this summer I would say at least 90 is a safe prediction.  As for pitching velocity, this one is a little less clear.  Depends on a lot of things as I stated earlier.   But I will stick with my 'prediction' that he will reach low to mid 80's just through maturation and strength alone.  These last key mph will take a lot of hard work mechanically.  Now it is all in print.  I am going nowhere and will be here five years from now.  So save those and we will see won't we?

You talk about making assumptions but isn't that exactly what you are doing?  You assume all of us don't know what we are.talking about because we 'haven't lived through it'.  You 'seem' to assume we are.all some sort of crazies pushing our kids and telling the world how great they are.  I admit this is a pet peeve of mine.  People don't have to directly live through something to understand it.  If that were the case there would be no open heart surgeons who haven't had a heart attack!  I coached many years before having kids.  I have seen kids go from youth through high school.  A couple did shock us and simply stopped developing.  Certainly would never name names but one we thought was going to be the next great pitcher in a long line of great pitchers at that particular school.  Never progressed from freshman year on.  I could name many many more who made that natural progression and wound up in college or being drafted.  The fact is predictions normally wind up pretty close.

As for asking for advice again I can only speak for myself but I did not come on here looking for advice.  I reserve the right to do so some day but haven't as yet.  I have asked questions on here and gotten good answers.  But never posted video of my son or asked anyone where they think he will land.  Since you have doubled down with your frankness I will too.  I really don't care what others think about my son's potential or lack thereof.   That is a matter better kept to family and those than can help him succeed.  I certainly discuss these things with his strength and fitness trainer.  He has no pitching coach or hitting instructor so no conversations there.  By the way I am glad you didn't apologize.  My skin is a lot thicker than that. 

As for the height thing, it DOES increase chances dramatically.  In fact.this is the conversation which brought me on to this site.  Don't want to rehash that but I will stick to my guns on that.  Every law of physics and every statistic in the world supports my viewpoint and there is zero to say otherwise.

Now for the travel team stuff.  Notice I was very careful to avoid using the term 'elite'.  Our organization does get just about everyone placed in a college somewhere.  There are multiple D1's every year.  And yes we have those that go to the big time schools.  This coming year we may even see a couple drafted.  The organization is still only 3 years old so not a long track record yet but a very impressive one.  We have the early commit to big time U. Guys as well.  THAT WON'T BE MY SON.  I hope I made that clear.  And that is yet another prediction I am comfortable with.  I will remain comfortable with my prediction that he will be able to play somewhere if he so desires.  I remain hopeful - HOPEFUL not confident - that things will go right for him and he can play at a D1 or otherwise high level school.  By being on this team he will see what is out there and get an accurate picture of what he is up against.

Finally since you (and probably others but lets keep this to you and I) make judgemental statements about the 'younger group', let me just say this.  Sometimes it seems to me like you are trying to defend your turf.  Like if someone else has a dream to get where your son has already been that they are diminishing his accomplishments.  I don't see it that way at all.  In fact I see it as motivation.  'Hey look junior he did it you can do it too!'  Somebody to look up to and emulate.  There were big time players before and there will be more after.  Its got to be somebody.

Hey 2020Dad - While I didn't know he was addressing you (was he?) I found myself agreeing with bacdorslider's post.  But I also found myself seeing your point-of-view in your recent post as well!!  Does that make any sense?

 

I guess I cannot speak for all of the others, but one comment you made that just isn't true for me (at all), but perhaps may 'feel' this way to you and others...

Finally since you (and probably others but lets keep this to you and I) make judgemental statements about the 'younger group', let me just say this. Sometimes it seems to me like you are trying to defend your turf.

You see, I/we made LOTS of mistakes.  I don't think the motivation is about 'judgement' at all, but about trying...on a message board...to share experiences and hope you and others will eliminate just ONE of our mistakes.  Don't know which one you or anyone else may avoid?  But if I share them and what worked well, what didn't (for us!), then maybe just one of them will be avoided by someone.

 

I will definitely say one thing - and this is NOT to be taken as a shot against anyone, cause its not - the landscape has indeed changed very fast and I am VERY thankful that our 2 sons (2004 & 2011) got through it all before it became what it is today.  I'm thankful for many simple things, but one for sure is enjoying middle school, rec and HS baseball (immensely!!) without all of pressures and distractions that so many of you 2018-2020 parents seem to feel and experience.

 

I once had a parent of 10-year old call and ask me what kind of training program we had our older son on (when he was 10!!) that he got to throw so hard?  I was like, 'what the heck??'  I basically answered that he threw dirtclods in the summer time and snowballs in the winter and maybe that was it (tongue-in-cheek).  I find it a bit maddening that too many think they can 'train' their son's way to 90+.  I know, I know...some will argue you can, but at age 10?  I think you all may find yourselves here in 10 years telling parents of 10's the same thing we're trying to tell you parents of 14's.

 

Just something to ponder, nothing more. 

I'm cool with the baseball advice. Like I said, I think Ted22 nailed it, and lots of great posts from Scott Munroe, PGStaff, infielddad, wareagle, stats, TPM, roothog, bballman, jp24, and others. I even "Liked" bacdoorslider's first post for its baseball content.

 

This all started with a question at its core: is it a good approach to focus on command first, and then worry about velocity at a later date? Or is it better to do it the other way around? It seemed to me that this was the perfect place to ask that question. But maybe not.

 

Like I said, the baseball advice is valuable. But the vitriol (e.g., "home school the kid and develop him into a first rounder yourself") and assumptions (e.g., "Does he resent the fact that he was pressured into all this baseball and lessons, camps, tryouts etc") that get tossed around on here are laugh out loud stuff. No need for anyone to apologize for making someone laugh. Maybe it's the nature of a message board like this . . . but sometimes I think the posters with older kids make these assumptions because they have a guilty conscience about how they treated their kids! (that's a joke, not an accusation )

Just baseball, you are so right about the pressures.  I took some time away from the game between when I was an in shape young brown haired coach (80's and 90's) and when I got back in.  The changes were nothing short of unbelievable.   Since I got out at the very end of the 90's I was completely unaware if all this travel stuff.  Then my kid was 8 and somebody says to me "you should have him try out for big travel team A"  I had no idea what we were.getting into.  All of the sudden he finds himself the cleanup hitter on this team that wins almost all their tournaments - at nine years old!  It was too much for him.  He froze under the pressure and stopped swinging at all!   I don't want to bust him out but I had to hold him while he cried himself to sleep a couple times.  He just wasn't mentally prepared for that pressure at that age.  Finally we withdrew him and to give him a little security I coached his team at age 10.  The only year I coached him.  This really helped.   I yelled at him a couple times that season which I really regret now but in general it was good for him and he enjoyed baseball again.  Now it's his passion.  He can't get enough.  But I will tell you at 9 it was touch and go if the whole baseball experience was even worthwhile.  So yes there are a lot of pitfalls along the way.

And maybe I am misinterpreting here.  I am just the type who would say "hey we made it, you can too!  Come on let me give you a hand and we will get to the promised land together"  that's just my personality.  So when I hear so many cautioning voices maybe I take that the wrong way.

I think we all need to keep in perspective the hierarchy of baseball: 

 

6-9:  Youth rec ball.  Have fun.  Don't pee your pants.

10-12:  Youth travel ball and rec/LL for some.  Have fun, but compete.

13-14:  Sprint to High School.  Get yourself ready for HS ball. 

15-18:  Play HS ball and chase girls.  Watch those grades. 

18+:  Play at the next level if you can. 

 

Now for most, to worry about College before HS is a waste of time.  Way too many things can and do happen.  If you are competing at a high level in HS, then it's time to think about the next level.  Unfortunately, these days we all hear about the early commits and think that we have to get on that train or we'll be left behind.  Thus the pressure to start earlier and earlier.  The reality is from a lot of posts here, the next level sounds like a freaking stressful meat grinder.  I am not sure there is even value in it for most. 

But that's not really an either or question.  You need both.  In the instant case, your kid throws mid 70's.  And the coach wants to change is mechanics to improve command.  I am certain the coach isn't looking to make the kid throw in the 60's just so he has command.  Will the mechanics change decrease the velocity?  If so, is there a way to get that velocity back?  You really don't know unless you try.    

As I've mentioned, I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive.  I think people need to realize that working on velocity isn't JUST "letting it rip".  Proper mechanics can help velocity A LOT.  I, personally, think that sometimes "letting it rip" can produce mechanics that are not healthy or good.  If you are letting it rip with proper mechanics, then that is good.  If you are letting it rip with bad mechanics, you are not only possibly hurting your velocity, but you very well may be hurting your arm as well.

 

It goes along with the old saying - practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.  Others may disagree, but I say make sure your mechanics are sound, then velocity and command will follow.  Let it rip, but do it with proper mechanics...

This is right on. However, I'll add one objection, because I see it all the time. I see plenty of kids at the HS level throwing it by batters in the 82-84 range of velocity. I think that's true of most high schools, excepting the better teams in the upper classifications.

I think we're lost in semantics here. When some of us argue that velocity can be taught, I don't think we mean anything more than what you are contending. What we mean is that with improved strength and improved mechanics we can maximize any player's velocity. I think you're seeing more and more of that every year as the list of kids throwing 90+ expands exponentially. I think that a lot more kids are genetically able to throw 90 than you or even I would have previously imagined. So, in that sense, yes velocity can be taught within limits. However, those limits are a lot higher than previously imagined.

I think you did come to the perfect place for baseball advice. The one area that I find this place somewhat lacking is open mindedness, keep in mind that I honestly believe most of the advice is spot on but you need to take it for what it is worth, apply it to your son and your big picture and decide how to use the advice or if to use it at all.

 

Example, my 2017 son really want to play college baseball, he hasn't been to a Perfect game event yet, he is going tis weekend for the first time. Why? because he is getting exactly what he looking for closer to home. He has been in front of D1, D2 an D3 many times. He wants to stay closer to home for school, he wants to be a player being recruited not a player hoping to get a chance...if that means playing D3 instead of D1, so be it.

 

He hasn't reached out to one college yet, he has responded to 10 or 12 that have reached out to him, he has been a on several unofficial visits and will start to zero in what he likes. That goes against everything you hear on this site but it fits him well, he is comfortable in that spot. it may cost him an opportunity somewhere but it also may get in him the perfect spot for him to thrive.

 

D1 isn't the end all and the holy grail of 25% or 50% doesn't necessarily mater to everyone...that is just the truth. I would rather spend 50k a year and have him be happy, educated and successful on and off the field at D3 then being chasing a dream that may or may not existing at some lower ranked D1. His mother and I have prepared for college long before he had an interest in baseball - so the money if any should secondary by a very large margin.

 

At the end of the day, read the advise, decide what is going to be in your sons best interest and move forward with a plan.

I also think there is a genetic limit to how hard a player can throw.  However, increasing strength and mechanics will help a player get to that genetic limit.  If you don't work on mechanics or strength, you may not reach that limit - whether it be 95 or 85.  I don't think it's a matter of "do nothing because you can only throw what you can throw".  Not saying anyone is saying that, but there are things you can do to reach your potential.

 

If a pitcher's genetic limit is 95 and he does nothing, he may only reach 88.  If a pitcher's genetic limit is 85 and he does nothing, he may only reach 80.  Work on mechanics and strength in order to reach whatever limit you have in you.  Unless you work at it, you will never really know what you might have been able to do.

justbaseball - I've got a 9yo and am trying to get him up to speed on the "dirtclod" program.  Can you outline that program and let everyone know whether it is better than the "snowball" program?  Do there programs have any regional differences such a good clay soil and/or frozen precipitation?

I'm going to introduce a novel concept (tongue firmly in cheek). Can you teach velocity? Yes. Can you teach control? Yes. Is there a difference in how you teach them? NO! How exactly do you teach control? I think most would agree that the secret to control is repeatable mechanics. So, how is teaching repeatable mechanics counter to teaching mechanics that provide increased velocity? I'd say it's not. Look at Randy Johnson. If you remember how he was early in his career, he was a bus wreck. Upper 90's with no idea where it was going to end up. There was no "working" on his control. It just took years of repetition until he got to the point that his mechanics were consistent and then control came all at once.

I'm waiting on it, too. I want to propose that justbaseball and I start an academy teaching the "dirtclod velocity program." Videos, personal dirtclod training, books and - most importantly - our patented weighted dirtclods. I'm seeing riches beyond our wildest dreams. Waddyathink, jb?

       
       
Root I wish I could give this a thousand likes instead of one!

       
       
Golf I simply can not agree.  There are always haves and have nots.  Sort of like old school and his 50k a year for college, God bless him he has a lot more financial resources than I do!  I am definitely a have not in that area.  Same with player ability haves and have nots.  But we have to leave room for the maybes!  Agreed the great ones don't need travel ball, don't need to stress at an early age and can spend their time chasing girls and enjoying the ride.  And the have nots will never get there no matter what they do. But what about that kid who has a high enough ceiling to do it but not without working longer and stronger than his competition?  The guys root talked about who maybe were left behind in the past when nobody did these things. I don't know if my son will make it or not.  But I guarantee you - stone cold guarantee you that if he doesn't work his tail end off starting now (he has already started) he has no chance.  zero.  I still want him to chase girls, but he better make sure they like working out so they can spend time together!

There really is a lot of good stuff in this thread.  While there might be some disagreement  this is a good example of the HSBBW.

 

Anyway, it has been proven over and over many times, there are many different paths to success, but nearly every one of those paths require a love for the game.  People simply "perform" better when they do things they really enjoy doing.  In my mind that should be the goal of every coach and parent at every level, but especially important in the younger age groups. Everything else is secondary.

 

The only thing I might add to the original topic is this.  As a young player you might work on velocity and/or "control".  Command is actually a combination of the two in most cases.  Command is control with stuff!  (Movement, life, velocity, etc.) BP pitchers have control, at least they should, they don't need command.  The first step is control, it comes before command.

 

Some pitch below their max velocity because it helps them create more movement and accuracy, thus better command.  Others throw their max velocity and don't worry as much about command.  Then there are a few that have it all and they are among the best ones.

 

If it were a young kid learning how to pitch, I would want to work on both velocity and control.  It doesn't have to be one more than other, they can work together.  Only when the young kid shows the ability to control a good fastball, would we even talk about command or working on other pitches. Others might go about it differently and I'm sure that has worked out well for some, too.

Not sure where you got "don't work hard" from me.  All players should work hard to be the best they can be at that time.  But working hard at 12, 13, 14 is about getting to high school not college.  Working hard as a freshman / sophomore is about getting to varsity - especially for the "maybe" kid.  Each level builds upon itself.  Once you're competing in HS then it becomes about the next level.  

       
       
I am concerned about his 15u team as this class is rich in pitching.  But high school?  You would have to be in the best of the best baseball areas to not make your high school team.  High school is a given.  It IS time to think about college.  But I am ready simply to agree to disagree on this one.

In my area, a lot of good players don't make it thru HS baseball.  It is very competitive.  On a freshman squad of 20 A's and 20 B's you'll get 100+ kids trying out.  After that, the funnel really narrows. 

 

But It's not about just making your HS team.  It's about competing at a high level in HS.  Even in the weakest programs only 9 kids can play a varsity game.  Once you are regularly one of the 9, then the question is how do you compete against your peers on other teams.  Are you one of the best in your conference/region/state?  If not, good luck getting to that next level.  Worrying about college ball before playing and performing at HS varsity seems to me to be jumping steps. 

been reading this post as it's interesting and has addressed many of the issues that are out there, and it's had a few twists and turns since the original post, so I'll go ahead and take it in yet another direction-  the reference to HS ball is interesting.  As we went through the process with my son, it became apparent to me, and this is my opinion, that in our area,  HS ball is completely irrelevant- for those that have a desire to play at the next level.    Relative to the summer ball, it's just not very good.  Rarely was there a college coach at a HS game- I think I saw one local school at two of our HS games, none of the coaches my son spoke to asked him where he played HS ball, and none of them contacted the HS coach.  The schools that were interested saw him play in the summer, and all communication was through his summer coach (until they were allowed to call directly).    So, my take away here is that HS baseball is fun, playing with your buddies and representing your school is part of the whole HS experience, but if you want to play in college, you should do your research and identify a summer travel program that plays in the right league or tournaments, and make it your goal to make that team. 

       
       
Well said Pa.  I decided to leave it alone, but then you said almost verbatim what I would have said.  High school = fun, travel ball = competition and recruitment.

when you are developing your program, please warn folks not to let their kids skip rocks- that is unless they want to become a submariner.

 

Splitting hairs.  Substitute "HS team" for "HS aged travel team"  You have to compete on your HS aged TB team before you have a chance for the "next level." 

I agree and as example 2018 is 88-90 and on a team I would consider elite , as all the teammates have signed D1 ACC or SEC. Canes. But I atill have no idea what will happen until it happens


> On Oct 5, 2015, at 3:36 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Not defending any turf , good luck to you and your son.

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 9:42 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

Well uh, yes a stated in my post my mistakes thanks for reading between the lines. Hey I know some of my posts my hit home with some, but I was trying to help from my mistakes, you know a lot more people read this than get involved in the thread so maybe it will help one of them

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 10:42 AM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

"So, my take away here is that HS baseball is fun, playing with your buddies and representing your school is part of the whole HS experience, but if you want to play in college, you should do your research and identify a summer travel program that plays in the right league or tournaments, and make it your goal to make that team."

 

"High school = fun, travel ball = competition and recruitment."

 

Maybe it is me, but I am having a real tough time with the idea a player has a different mind-set on a baseball team and baseball field depending on whether he is playing for his HS or a travel team, or, I guess, in a showcase or camp.  Doesn't the HS team and coach deserve at least the same mental mindset and commitment from someone who views HS as a "given" as that player is going to give to his travel team, or in a camp or showcase?

I have read 100's of posts on this site over the years to the effect you never know who is watching. If that is true, why would there be any difference in "fun" vs "competition and recruitment."  

It may not happen in some High Schools, ( I can guess it would in many High Schools in Northern CA,) but I would project that  college coaches could be  turned off by a player who changed mental attitudes to suit his definition of "fun" as contrasted with whatever mental approach is brought when the player thinks he is being recruited.

Applying this to college and the draft, we have gone to Stanford games for the last 15 or so years.  At the very beginning of the season and very end of each season, the Friday night pitchers  for Stanford and most away teams have scouts and cross-checkers and even GM's sitting in the stands, when the Friday night guys are draft eligible.  So, do they "compete" in some different way when the scouts and GM's are there as contrasted with every other Friday night start during a college season when they are not there, or not in nearly the same quantity?

Maybe those who advocate "exposure" and "recruitment" understand this far better than me.  Knowing our son's HS coach and college coach, neither would have tolerated or accepted mindset's to competing which varied in ways which are being suggested here. 

 

"High school = fun, travel ball = competition and recruitment."

 

Totally agree.  Travel ball lead to son's recruitment.  But in my son's case, the RC did come and see him pitch in HS playoff game.  RC's rationale was that he really likes to see kids in a really competitive environment which he felt HS games provided.  RC felt that those games mattered and liked to see recruits in that type of environment in addition to the showcase/travel environment.  I believe RC only went to HS games of his potential recruits, not as a source of identifying new recruits.

Great post

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 12:14 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>

I'm with you, infielddad. Around here, high school ball is serious stuff (at least in the largest classification). But we have over 10 million people in our county, with weather that enables year-round play. And I get that things may be different in other parts of the country.

Given my kid's specific circumstances, I found myself agreeing with golfman -- earlier in this thread I didn't think I'd be saying THAT -- in that competing for playing time in high school is priority number one. At his school "varsity starter" pretty much equals "college recruit" -- just because, otherwise they wouldn't be starting!!

But I understand it could be completely different elsewhere.

I agree with all this , but forecasting 3 years out and say Jonny is going to be a D1 player because everything is magically going to fall into place is a pipe dream

> On Oct 5, 2015, at 12:19 PM, HS Baseball Web <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:
>