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Different sport I know - but Deion Sanders just took the job at Colorado. This was his first meeting with the new team. This is what it looks like when a new coaching staff takes over. Posting it to show the cutthroat nature of high level college sports.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Io3jCH5bU

Clearing house. Telling the kids to hop in the portal, getting rid of the entire staff, changing everything to his specifications. "Everything here is going to change"

This is what goes on behind the scenes, just being said out loud and on camera. Same kids clapping for him are already looking for new homes. Whether you think it's right or wrong, this is how it goes down in a lot of places.

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@nycdad posted:

What would be an equivalent example in college baseball? I think the sport and people involved make this very specific to Dion and Colorado. Also, let's see what the actual outcome is here. This was obviously a made for TV moment.

Any time a coach is looking to come in a change the culture there is going to be significant change. In college baseball, historically juco players have been brought in to make an immediate impact. HS verbal commits are typically let go. A coach looking to change the image of the program can't afford to sit around and wait 3-4 years for his guys to get to campus, then develop.

I will admit, it is a little different for baseball with the scholarship differences. If 6 scholarship players don't want to leave in baseball that will have a significant effect on the direction of the program in the short term. Football can live with them eating scholarships. The benefit of having 85.

In baseball it's more discreet. Players are brought in and they compete for the position, scholarships are not renewed at non P5s. In this case, he basically told them all goodbye before conducting a single practice.

I have two in college ball. One was recruited by a new staff that let 90% of his original class walk, the other had a coaching change while he was there and saw a lot of his friends get the axe without getting what they thought was a fair shake.

@nycdad posted:

What would be an equivalent example in college baseball? I think the sport and people involved make this very specific to Dion and Colorado. Also, let's see what the actual outcome is here. This was obviously a made for TV moment.

Deggs cut almost every Freshman at semester when he took the job at Louisiana.  I believe one player was kept

This isn't confined to college.  It also applies to high school.  To be blunt, there are high schools where losing in ingrained and ingrained in all sports.  Then, there are some high schools that have one or two programs that are the joke of the area but the school competes in other sports.  It is hard to change the culture of a high school.  In fact, to do so, head coaches and assistant coaches have to be fired and sometimes in multiple sports.  I went through that.  When I changed schools and was hired as a head baseball coach, I was also hired as the head girl's basketball coach.  There were several sports at the high school where the head coaches were released.  In short, it was a purge.  For me, I was allowed to have my assistant coaches hired into the school district.  They also were players that I had coached in high school at my former school.  They knew how to win.  In basketball, there had to be a purge of players who didn't want to work and win.  My sophomores and freshmen stepped up and we won.  In the end, none of this is possible if the administration and the AD refuse to step back and let the coaches do what they have to do. 

Haven't had time to review the impact, here are the simple steps that you can follow:

CBI provided Keep Playing baseball all coaching changes since 2017

CBI-Coaching-Changes

Here is the article they wrote

https://keepplayingbaseball.or...s-early-commitments/

Here are all the 2023 changes

https://collegebaseballinsight...l-coaching-carousel/

Look at the press release date, it might provide a guide if the coaching announcement influence the 2023 recruitment

To date, we've published the Fall Rosters for:



⚠️NCAA-D1 2️⃣1️⃣9️⃣reconciled 80%

⚠️NCAA-D2 1️⃣4️⃣6️⃣

⚠️NCAA-D3 1️⃣0️⃣6️⃣

⚠️NAIA 1️⃣0️⃣7️⃣

Example : Nevada

Nevada_2023_roster-insights

Here is the turnover by position for 2023.

Nevada_2023_Player_attrition_Turnover_Overview



Below is the outgoing players with reason they are not on the roster.

Note many will be classified as Unknown Reason, we have not found them on another school's roster.:





Nevada_2023_Player_attrition_Outgoing_Player

There incoming Class identifies  the following

Nevada_2023_Player_attrition_Incoming_Players

Attachments

Images (5)
  • CBI-Coaching-Changes
  • NCAA-D1-2023-player-turnover(31)
  • Nevada_2023_Player_attrition_Turnover_Overview
  • Nevada_2023_Player_attrition_Outgoing_Player
  • Nevada_2023_Player_attrition_Incoming_Players
@TPM posted:

I have never been a fan of Sanders. He  sold a dream to a HBCU and walking away from his "calling".

He tried to prove he was different, but Coach Prime (name he gave himself) is the same as everyone else.



https://www.foxnews.com/media/...on-sold-dream-walked

https://sports.yahoo.com/bolti...inked-121944055.html

Life changes, what is the time period from a calling?

He is always looking for challenges. Once he has conquered said challenge, he moves on. Sanders has never stayed in one place longer than ~4 yr.

Others need to step up their game and take it to the next level.

I don't have a problem with what he has done so far.  He said if you are sold out for this college and college football then you need to get in the portal.  I'm bringing in the best staff that I can and obviously the past staff could not get it done.  I don't think a new HC should have to keep any old staff.  If you want change, you have to change stuff.  He said I'm getting rid of the guys who don't want to put in the time and don't want to believe they can win.  I think it should happen at any level, MS,HS, college and on.  A new HS HC should not be required to keep former staff if he is expected to win.  LSU is the prime example of how a new coach comes in, in today's world and makes changes to get new results.

@PitchingFan posted:

I don't have a problem with what he has done so far.  He said if you are sold out for this college and college football then you need to get in the portal.  I'm bringing in the best staff that I can and obviously the past staff could not get it done.  I don't think a new HC should have to keep any old staff.  If you want change, you have to change stuff.  He said I'm getting rid of the guys who don't want to put in the time and don't want to believe they can win.  I think it should happen at any level, MS,HS, college and on.  A new HS HC should not be required to keep former staff if he is expected to win.  LSU is the prime example of how a new coach comes in, in today's world and makes changes to get new results.

Didn't Bill Parcell say you need to bring in your own guys.

@nycdad posted:

What would be an equivalent example in college baseball? I think the sport and people involved make this very specific to Dion and Colorado. Also, let's see what the actual outcome is here. This was obviously a made for TV moment.

I chatted with a pro scout at a CAA baseball game. My son was early in high school at the time. He handed me the visiting team roster. He asked if I noticed anything unusual. The roster was thirty-four freshmen and transfers and one senior. It wasn’t hard to determine the answer … new coach taking over a loser. He warned me for my son’s benefit on the dangers of teetering programs.

The one senior the coach kept was an all conference player. Every other senior the coach told to take a hike. This was when transferring meant sitting out a year.

I don't understand what HBUC has to do with anything.  I went to one so I get the pride behind it but that should have nothing to do with it.  He went there and it may have been God's will, I won't say it is not or is, and then he takes another job and says it is God's will, again I won't say it is not or is.  He got an opportunity to move up and he did.  He accomplished all he could at JSU so why not move on and do it somewhere else.  He got promoted so that should be a good thing.

@PitchingFan posted:

I don't have a problem with what he has done so far.  He said if you are sold out for this college and college football then you need to get in the portal.  I'm bringing in the best staff that I can and obviously the past staff could not get it done.

I really only have two issues

1. Telling the kids to transfer without individual meetings first.

2. Naming his son the starting QB

I get it, you have to let him bring in his own staff and do it his way but below a pretty bizarre comment to make coming from an FCS school. You want to get rid of some guys, assess the situation, talk to the roster about expectations and playing time and go from there. Not being given a chance to compete is beyond unfair.

“We got a few positions already taken care of because I’m bringing my own luggage with me,” “And it’s Louis, OK?”

You did not listen closely.  He did not tell them to transfer.  He said there are some of you in here that are not willing to do what we will expect you to do to be successful.  If you are not putting in the effort to be successful and don't believe that you can be successful, then you need to get in the portal.  He had already talked about many of them had been skipping team meetings so he knew the background.  He told no one individually to transfer but put out a blank statement that if you are not going to do what it takes, then do us both a favor and get out now.  Same thing that was said by many new coaches in very bad programs.  Go back and listen.  His speech was almost identical to the one he gave when he came to JSU.

So do you not think that in the past few years that has happened in a lot of situations.  Look at Clemson.  They held on to their QB even though he was killing their team until this weekend.  There are a lot of QB's over the past few years that have been brought in through portal and everyone told they are the QB of the future.  His just happens to be his son and from what I've seen it is a no brainer.

@PitchingFan posted:

You did not listen closely.  He did not tell them to transfer.  He said there are some of you in here that are not willing to do what we will expect you to do to be successful.  If you are not putting in the effort to be successful and don't believe that you can be successful, then you need to get in the portal.  He had already talked about many of them had been skipping team meetings so he knew the background.  He told no one individually to transfer but put out a blank statement that if you are not going to do what it takes, then do us both a favor and get out now.  Same thing that was said by many new coaches in very bad programs.  Go back and listen.  His speech was almost identical to the one he gave when he came to JSU.

So do you not think that in the past few years that has happened in a lot of situations.  Look at Clemson.  They held on to their QB even though he was killing their team until this weekend.  There are a lot of QB's over the past few years that have been brought in through portal and everyone told they are the QB of the future.  His just happens to be his son and from what I've seen it is a no brainer.

I felt I listened closely, I understand what you're saying, I just disagree. Especially considering he will still be at Jackson St until the 17th which means the players have one month to enter the portal before the deadline - during non football activity.

And I know what the argument is - he needs to bring in his guys to get the job done. Fine, but it's hard to find the words meaningful when he introduces his son and says "This is your quarterback." That doesn't really sound like an open competition to me

So would it be any better if he said I'm going to give everyone a fair shot at every position knowing that he is going to use his son as starting QB.  I respect coaches who tell the truth no matter how unfair their decisions are.  I had a friend who told me a P5 school HC that I knew did her son wrong.  Her son was a catcher who had a surgery on his throwing elbow after his junior year.  The HC told him the summer before his freshman fall year that they were going to medical redshirt him his freshman year and use him as the bullpen catcher since he could not throw full speed in the fall of his freshman year.  He decided that he did not want to redshirt and went to a different school.  I felt that the HC was honest with him and could have easily not told him and allowed him to do everything in the fall knowing he was going to not play him in the spring.

I would appreciate it if I was the freshman and junior QB's at Colorado to know that I need to transfer if I want to play.  At least he was honest.  I don't think Deion has ever said the positions were open competition.

I would say if you are coming into UT this fall as a transfer or freshman pitcher, you should know that you are probably going to the bullpen if you want to play this spring.  When you have the #1 college pitcher projected in 2023 draft, the #1 overall projected player in 2024 draft, and SEC pitcher of the year coming back next year.  I don't think there will be open competition for those positions unless someone gets hurt or really blows up this spring.  2 of them did not throw this fall at all and neither did the first RHP out of the bullpen.  But this fall and this spring there will not be open competition.

I can guarantee you Deion is not recruiting a QB for the next couple years.  He is also bringing in 4 4 and 5 star recruits with him that were at JSU or were committed to JSU.  That doesn't seem fair but that is life in college sports today.  Just like the QB at South Carolina getting a $1.4 million dollar pay raise, NIL deal, for next year.  Life will never be the same in college sports with NIL being able to pay to play and automatic transfer rules.

Sanders has the same attitude now that he did years ago. It's "I can do and say what I want." It's obnoxious. Someone explain to me how he gives a speech to his new team while still being the coach at his old team? Who does that? That's a slap in the face IMO.

Sorry but most coaches who leave a program don't bring the players with them and most will have their quarterback son go play where he won't be the HCs son.

As far as referencing Clemson, it is not JSU or Colorado and you can't compare Sanders to Dabo.

Pitchingfan, I wasn't sure what your point was regarding your statement.

His "sell" coming in to JSU, whether necessary or not, was that it was about much more for him than developing a winning program.  It was, to the extent of a divine calling, about raising the bar of HBCU's across the board.

It does seem quite disingenuous for him to abandon that "calling" in a much shorter timeframe than any logical mind would think necessary to accomplish that larger objective.  If he had come in claiming merely that he wanted to turn the program around, then no issues - mission largely accomplished, bring on the next challenge.

Last edited by cabbagedad
@cabbagedad posted:

His "sell" coming in to JSU, whether necessary or not, was that it was about much more for him than developing a winning program.  It was, to the extent of a divine calling, about raising the bar of HBCU's across the board.

It does seem quite disingenuous for him to abandon that "calling" in a much shorter timeframe than any logical mind would think necessary to accomplish that larger objective.  If he had come in claiming merely that he wanted to turn the program around, then no issues - mission largely accomplished, bring on the next challenge.

Exactly!

@PitchingFan posted:

So would it be any better if he said I'm going to give everyone a fair shot at every position knowing that he is going to use his son as starting QB.  I respect coaches who tell the truth no matter how unfair their decisions are...

The point would be that it should be a fair and open competition - here's why. You have a QB room with a bunch of kids who all have the goal of starting at the position. Only one will. It doesn't work out for the rest of them and that is fine because the coaching staff was able to evaluate and decide who was fit to start. They were given a chance, it was determined they're not the right fit.

When you announce your son (who is not even enrolled at the school) is the new quarterback despite never having played an FBS game let alone a P5 game, it's slimy. You have a bunch of kids working towards becoming the starting QB, burning eligibility who won't be given a chance. That is the problem, not him bringing in his son, not even the honesty. It's that the current guys are not even going to be considered. 

If you want to be brutally honest, by all means. But be completely honest, not quasi honest. Tell them yeah I'm bringing in guys and they are going to start - decide if you want to stick around. Don't tell them they're not giving enough effort to be successful then enter the portal. It has nothing to do with effort, he is making decisions without giving opportunities, point blank.

This is my problem with baseball too. Coaches come in and shake up a roster, which I get. But give the kids the opportunity to prove they are not the answer, don't determine it for them. If a coach comes in a says hey we've evaluated you for three months this fall, I don't see you being a big contributor at this program - fine. Tell HS commits, we've been following you this summer, we are going to look in a different direction, fine.

But do ya'll think he has not evaluated the players.  You can't go back and watch a Colorado game over the past few years and think, those are some great players who could be good.  You look at them and say how did they get to a P5.  So when you know you are bringing in 4 and 5 star players, it is easy to say some of you need to leave because this is who I'm bringing in.  I love the honesty, not just talking Deion but any coach who does this.  Tell the players where they stand before they burn eligibility or waste time at the school.  Just say.  I don't see you fitting in.  I'm also okay with it if you recruited them and offered them a scholarship but things changed.  I want a coach to tell my kid that you don't fit in our plans anymore.  Let me help you find somewhere rather than you coming here and wasting your time.  Some of you think a player can change a coach's mind if they are given a chance but that rarely(.01%) happens.  Why would you not want the coach to be honest?  I know some will say it is not fair.  Sorry but life is not fair.  An employer finds someone who is better at doing your job or will take less money, you are gone.

I have read on here for the past few years that this coach and that coach told a kid the summer before they were supposed their freshman year that they no longer needed them.  Ya'll destroy these coaches but you also destroy them if they wait until after fall of the freshman year.  So, if they are going to get destroyed why not do it before they burn some kids fall semester.  I just do not have a problem with a coach taking a player, another freshman, a transfer, a grad guy or whatever that helps his team win.  I would rather the HC be honest with the player than not tell him and then cut him.  Give him a chance to go somewhere else and compete.  I have said for years if you do not have a plan B you are doing yourself a disservice and that plan B better always be in your back pocket.  Before you get there until you leave.

Deion said some of ya'll better move on to plan B because you are not our plan A.  The only way you take a 1-11 team to winning the conference is to get rid of coaches and players.  Easier to do it quickly than drag it out.

On the other note.  He did what he said he would do at JSU.  He promoted the HBCU.  Gameday was at JSU this year.  Has that ever happened?

He did not tell anyone in particular to leave.  He just made them aware that there would be some new players coming in and some would be the guy so you might want to evaluate where you stand and some of you need to hit the portal.  If you want to stay, don't say I did not warn you.  Some will stay and many will leave.  He will bring in more portal guys than any school has ever done, even greater than USC did last year.  He will compete next year.

@PitchingFan posted:

... He did what he said he would do at JSU.  He promoted the HBCU.  Gameday was at JSU this year.  Has that ever happened?

Solid points on the first part of your post.  To this part though, IMO, he put a blip on the screen as opposed to some level of sustainable improvement, which I think he was capable of over time.  Enjoying good healthy debate here.

And I would say that is an opinion or preference.  Some assumed that he meant long term improvement but that may not have been his mindset.  He did what he said he would do which was change the mindset of the HBCU which in my opinion he did.

I discuss with all the time when Tennessee fans say Lane Kiffin did them wrong I disagree.  He told them when he was hired that he was there but if USC offered he would be gone.  USC offered and he left.  He did exactly what he said he would do.

I agree cabbagedad, just good debate.

Kiffin is another one of those guys who changes teams like people change underwear.

He took the job at FAU, told everyone he took it because of the proximity of the PB  airport so his kids could fly in often.

Successful year, then he was gone. He put the AD in a tough spot.

Sanders essentially did the same. He made people believe he made a commitment to help the entire school as well as other programs like JSU.

So what does he do, leaves and goes to a predominetly white school which has a predominetly black roster, and announces that his son will be QB while bringing some of his 4 and 5 star players,that's essentially wiping out the progress made in 3 years.

JMO

Last edited by TPM

So what should these guys do?  I'm honestly wanting an answer.  Is it because they said they would stay or is it just because they left?  I don't think I can ever blame a person for moving up in life when it comes to their job.  I hear it all the time in my profession.  The average stay of a pastor now is 18-24 months.  That is because guys start at small churches and have a little success and get to move up to a bigger church that has more to offer especially money.  Many of these young pastors come out of seminary with a master's degree and student loan debt and go to churches paying $25,000.  I get this.  My first church I took a $20,000 paycut from my secular government job.  After one year, I went to the finance committee and said I need a little more money just to break even.  I had grown the youth group by 250% and giving of church increased by $70,000 that year.  They had given senior pastor a large raise and I got $2,500.  When a new church offered me $10,000 pay raise I left after 3 years.  Grew youth group from 8 kids to 125 kids and got no benefit increases to speak of.

It is no different in sports.  Most coaches of smaller schools do not reward the coaches when they are successful so they move on.  JSU had limited facilities and Deion was actually paying out of pocket for the upgrades that were happening.  Why would we be mad when he took a better opportunity for him, his staff, and his family?

@PitchingFan posted:

So what should these guys do?  I'm honestly wanting an answer.  Is it because they said they would stay or is it just because they left?  I don't think I can ever blame a person for moving up in life when it comes to their job.

I don't have an issue with him leaving. If he were 3-8 every year they would have got rid of him regardless of his contributions and attention he brought to the HBCUs. He can still support Jackson St from Boulder.

When it comes to personnel decisions, I really think there need to be individual meetings before decisions are made. I don't think many would disagree with that. The players need to be sat down and told - here's the deal these are your options. Followed by a legitimate evaluation period (spring football).

Coaches have to do what's right for them, I get it. They should still be looking out for guys in the program. They have goals, they've made commitments, they're burning valuable eligibility.

I've always thought this in baseball too. If you're going to cut a kid, fine, but sit him down and say I think you would be a good fit at these schools, come back to me with a list of your own and I'll make some calls for you. It goes a long way.

Last edited by PABaseball

But he did not tell any particular player to leave that I have seen.  All he did was what almost every new coach has done.  He said if you are not going to put in the work, then now would be the time to get out.  The only real questionable thing I think he did was say he brought his son with him as QB.  But I don't think that is really any different than when some very prominent coaches have brought in transfer guys who were very successful and said when they introduced him that this is our QB of the future.

When Sanders was hired, the point was not that he was starting a coaching career with an upward trajectory to support his family.  He said the whole point was about recruiting black football players to play at an HBCU.  The question he asked was, as I remember, why do so many black athletes go to majority-white universities when they could go and play (and learn) productively at an HBCU?  Sanders said HE would be the reason to go to an HBCU, which, apparently, he was.  That's the problem with his leaving now; there aren't a lot of other potential coaches like him for those schools.  So, is he saying his mission failed?

PF, I never knew that pastors are just like coaches as far as moving around.  It seems you are talking about assistant pastors and not head pastors (to use the coach analogy), but I would think that if a head pastor came in promising to transform the church family and then left after only a few years, people wouldn't take very kindly to that, either.

I am not talking associate pastors.  I am talking head pastors in churches that control hiring.  The Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Catholic churches are usually controlled by a board or regional/district director that moves pastors.  But Baptist and non-denominational are independent and the church can hire and fire who they want.  The pastors in those type churches usually do not stay very long at smaller churches.  Many of them are lucky to keep a pastor who has an education for more than a year at the small churches.  They end up getting uneducated pastors or they swap them rapidly because someone with a masters cannot afford to stay at a small church.  Most pastors of small to medium size churches are not paid what school teachers with equal degrees get paid.

I can relate as a pastor because every time I or most of my friends have moved churches we come in with the mindset of growing a church and making things new.  But churches are not very open to change and the only way to grow is to change.  If you do the same things, with a new pastor, you get the same results.  The only way to get different results is through change and the only people who don't mind change are in the cemetery.  All other age people struggle with change.

What Sanders did at Jackson State was elevate a program. He increased awareness, improved facilities, improved the talent, and put a winning team on the field. He also provided structure and created an atmosphere that promoted personal growth among his players. He changed the culture at JSU and showed what was possible. Not only there but at other HBCUs as well. If Sanders believes that God called him to do that, good for him. Maybe that’s what happened. I have a hard time seeing anything he did that merits criticism. Because of his eye popping results a bigger and different opportunity came calling and he took it. That’s the nature of coaching - so I don’t see how that merits criticism either. His initial meeting with CU players was only different than how any other new HC would handle it in one way - it was filmed. Sound bites from the video of that meeting have gone viral but don’t accurately reflect the message that was delivered - as @PitchingFan has attempted to explain. Hundreds of players relate to Sanders and want to play for him. Sanders wants to help his players as athletes and as people. From what I see he is proving that he can do that. It will be interesting to watch but I expect CU to be competitive in a heartbeat.

If a new coach took over at one of your kids schools and in his first press conference said this is your new catcher as he introduced his son (who is not enrolled at the school). That would not be considered a subliminal message to the other catchers on the roster. That is an invitation to transfer or stay and carry the equipment off the bus. Sure, maybe he didn't tell the kids to outright transfer, he didn't have to.

Point of the post was to illustrate what it looks like when there is a coaching change in a program that is in need of a culture change. New ideas, new players, and a new staff that doesn't care what the last regime told you.

Sanders was going to do what he had to do, no blame assigned there. There were better ways to go about it.

@PitchingFan posted:

I am not talking associate pastors.  I am talking head pastors in churches that control hiring.  The Methodist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, and Catholic churches are usually controlled by a board or regional/district director that moves pastors.  But Baptist and non-denominational are independent and the church can hire and fire who they want.  The pastors in those type churches usually do not stay very long at smaller churches.  Many of them are lucky to keep a pastor who has an education for more than a year at the small churches.  They end up getting uneducated pastors or they swap them rapidly because someone with a masters cannot afford to stay at a small church.  Most pastors of small to medium size churches are not paid what school teachers with equal degrees get paid.

I can relate as a pastor because every time I or most of my friends have moved churches we come in with the mindset of growing a church and making things new.  But churches are not very open to change and the only way to grow is to change.  If you do the same things, with a new pastor, you get the same results.  The only way to get different results is through change and the only people who don't mind change are in the cemetery.  All other age people struggle with change.

I've identified myself as Jewish on this board. But I attended a Presbyterian church for nineteen years on a regular basis. I married the daughter of a pastor with five uncles and two grandfathers who were pastors. My kids were raised Christian. To quote my grandmother, "Oh vey!" We were regulars through my son's (the youngest) confirmation.  I'm still doing fundraising for the church and Interfaith organization projects even though I've moved away.

From being active in the church I learned how much control the inner circle has as opposed to the pastors. The church lost both pastors to better opportunities within a short period of time. When there's an interim pastor the inner circle is 100% in charge. They rejected every interviewee for a year and a half to maintain 100% control. They didn't care the interim was duller than dirt and people were looking at other churches. It was all about control.

The inner circle publicly trashed the head pastor for leaving for a better opportunity. Aside from a large salary he had been given an interest free loan by the church for a home. Once he got his PhD in family counseling he wanted to do more counseling and less preaching. He left town for a large church with five pastors.

The associate was straight out of Princeton divinity school. She was southern and evangelical. The members voted for her. I was shocked a stoic, stick up their butts, northeast inner circle would even nominate a southern evangelical for associate. She was so good and so bright she quickly got her own church in Southern Virginia. I found it interesting to have intellectual and evangelical in alternate weeks.

Imagine the embarrassment when one inner circle person unknowingly nominated me to be usher. I had to point out my (now ex) wife was the member and not me. The person got so upset they were adament I never taught Sunday school classes with my wife again. After all, I might corrupt first graders who color, do shoe box projects and have stories read to them.

I've never cared what people believe or don't believe. It's what you get out of it not what you're born into. You probably have those who only show up on Christmas and Easter. I ultimately became a High Holiday Jew. A cousin, a rabbi jokingly checks the date on his watch when he sees me walk in.

Last edited by RJM

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