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Had what I thought was an interesting conversation with our coach yesterday, as he was prepping the field. It started when I asked him for my copy of this year’s NFHS rule book. I’d read on one of these bulletin board that the NFHS changed the bat rules and made it legal for a wood bat to be -5, and I wanted to read it for myself.

One thing led to another, and he finally said he wished they’d just have gone to wood, and the old asst coach echoed his feelings. The old guy lost his credibility with me on the subject, when he said the reason he wanted to go to wood was because the non-wood bats sounded like hitting a tin can with a rock. Well, that may or may not be a credible argument about “traditional” baseball, but it has no meaning when it comes to play on the field.

When I pressed the HC on it, he said that ever since the BBCOR change, the lists of illegal bats keep changing, and it made it a PITA that wouldn’t happen if they’d simply gone to wood. I agreed, but noted that all I’ve ever been interested in, was seeing the bat performance get back to being relative to developed hitting skills rather than the ability to purchase those hitting skills, and asked if he didn’t think the BBCOR standard was a good thing.

He said it was, but was sick and tired of the mess they made with the rules and lists, and by going to wood, that would all go away. I pointed out that he could easily make a team rule that all of his hitters had to use wood in games, and he seemed appalled, saying it would put our team at a huge disadvantage. I asked how that was possible, given that the non-woods perform almost exactly like wood. We went back and forth for a bit, but in the end he admitted that the only real problem he had was with the way they’d mucked up the lists.

Its interesting to me that often when you dig a little deeper into what people say, you find out that what you might think is their motivation, isn’t that at all. Wink
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quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
Had what I thought was an interesting conversation with our coach yesterday, as he was prepping the field. It started when I asked him for my copy of this year’s NFHS rule book. I’d read on one of these bulletin board that the NFHS changed the bat rules and made it legal for a wood bat to be -5, and I wanted to read it for myself.

One thing led to another, and he finally said he wished they’d just have gone to wood, and the old asst coach echoed his feelings. The old guy lost his credibility with me on the subject, when he said the reason he wanted to go to wood was because the non-wood bats sounded like hitting a tin can with a rock. Well, that may or may not be a credible argument about “traditional” baseball, but it has no meaning when it comes to play on the field.

When I pressed the HC on it, he said that ever since the BBCOR change, the lists of illegal bats keep changing, and it made it a PITA that wouldn’t happen if they’d simply gone to wood. I agreed, but noted that all I’ve ever been interested in, was seeing the bat performance get back to being relative to developed hitting skills rather than the ability to purchase those hitting skills, and asked if he didn’t think the BBCOR standard was a good thing.

He said it was, but was sick and tired of the mess they made with the rules and lists, and by going to wood, that would all go away. I pointed out that he could easily make a team rule that all of his hitters had to use wood in games, and he seemed appalled, saying it would put our team at a huge disadvantage. I asked how that was possible, given that the non-woods perform almost exactly like wood. We went back and forth for a bit, but in the end he admitted that the only real problem he had was with the way they’d mucked up the lists.

Its interesting to me that often when you dig a little deeper into what people say, you find out that what you might think is their motivation, isn’t that at all. Wink


Definately a differing motivation as its pretty hard to mess up a list of 2 banned bats....

33 inch Marucci CAT 5

33 inch Reebok Vector TLS

I enjoy the crack of the bat sound of a well hit ball off of a wooden bat too..........and I get that at MLB games....but "the sound" alone is not a vaild reason to switch to wood....

As to the NFHS rule on wood bats, I'll save you some searching...there is nothing in the NFHS rule book that permits a wooden bat to be -5....actually I think it would be hard to even find a wooden bat that is -5...I weighed my sons collection and the lowest I could find was a 3.8

The only rules for wooden bats are:

It must be made of single piece of wood
It must be no more than 2-5/8 inches in diameter
It must be no longer that 36 inches
Last edited by piaa_ump
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
Definately a differing motivation as its pretty hard to mess up a list of 2 banned bats....

33 inch Marucci CAT 5

33 inch Reebok Vector TLS


I’ll try to say this without incurring the wrath of coaches everywhere. You know how coaches sometimes get when the ruling body has the audacity to change something in the rules. Its often seen as something earth-shattering. I think our coach is miffed because he hasn’t taken the time to get the list, then make sure his players aren’t using some bat that’s on it. And that’s mixed in with the players using bats different than gamers for BP, then forgetting to put it back in the bag and walking up to the plate with it. Wink

IOW, I suspect its much more that there are fellows like him who really don’t deal well at all with change, than there’s an actual problem.

quote:
I enjoy the crack of the bat sound of a well hit ball off of a wooden bat too..........and I get that at MLB games....but "the sound" alone is not a vaild reason to switch to wood....


Sadly, to some it is, and those are the guys who cause the most trouble.

quote:
As to the NFHS rule on wood bats, I'll save you some searching...there is nothing in the NFHS rule book that permits a wooden bat to be -5....actually I think it would be hard to even find a wooden bat that is -5...I weighed my sons collection and the lowest I could find was a 3.8

The only rules for wooden bats are:

It must be made of single piece of wood
It must be no more than 2-5/8 inches in diameter
It must be no longer that 36 inches


Thanx. That’s what I thought, but without a book handy, I’m not gonna call BS on anyone, even on an anonymous WWW board. Wink

As an aside, this coach is one of those guys who never misses an opportunity to call time and make the umpire justify or explain a call, or tell the umps they have to do a better job on a close call that didn’t go his way. I know what he’s doing, but the truth is, I’m not a big fan of it, although far be it for me to tell him how to manage his team.

But in a game this week I got a kick out of something that happened. On the 1st pitch to a batter, blue who usually calls out called strikes loudly, didn’t make much of a noise or indication at all. The next pitch was a swing and miss, and I watched him check his counter, then put up 2 fingers on his right hand. That pitch was a ball, and he said “1-2” out loud, and our coach called time. He came in and was arguing, not loudly, that the 1st pitch was a ball because he didn’t hear or see any indication. Then he asked him to check with his partner, then with the official scorer. After several minutes of this bickering, when the coach tried once more to get him to change the count, blue said, “Look coach, I know what the pitch was, and I’m telling you it was a strike and the count is 1 and 2. If you want to continue arguing and holding up the game, you can do it from the parking lot.”

I have to admit that I was one of the several people who clapped. Jeez! It was the top of the 4th with the score 14-0 in our favor and we were the visitors. Sometimes those guys just don’t know when to throw the off switch. Wink
Last edited by Stats4Gnats
PIAA_UMP. I agree that "the list" contains only two bats however throughout this season, in Colorado, I've witnessed and had to deal with umpires who believe other bats to also be illegal such as the Rip It and other sizes of the Marrucci.

They remove them from the game, without rule much to my disappointment but YOU CAN'T ARGUE AND YOU CAN'T PROTEST. Just write them the check and say "thanks".

Its a serious problem when it occurs and there is no governing authority that puts an over zealous umpire in his place.

Yes, there is a "umpire report" one can fill out that goes to the certifying authority but it only has check boxes for standard things such as "strike zone consistency", etc. One could write a letter but that would go over like a lead balloon payable at the next game.

My point being, I agree, solid wood bats would be easier.
This took place several weeks ago in south central Pennsylvania during a JV high school game. My son comes to bat with base runners on 1st and 2nd and one out. My son swings a Marucci Black 33inch BBCOR bat. He proceeds to hit a soft line drive to left field that drops safely for a hit. Runners go halfway on contact and both advance. So we have the base loaded and one out. The opposing JV coach call's time and accuses my son of using an illegal bat — he tells the umpires that the Marucci Black 33inch was recently banned for PIAA play - decertified he claimed.

The two umpires retrieve the bat, call both coaches together and rule my son out and nullify his hit for using a decertified BBCOR bat. Now we have runners on 2nd and 3rd and two outs. Our coach knew all Marucci Black BBCOR bats are legal and asks for written proof that the bat was decertified from the both the umpires and the opposing coach. Our coach even takes out his I-Phone and shows the umpires a picture of the decertified Marucci Cat 5 BBCOR and explains the difference between the bats.

The opposing coach had no written proof the bat was decertified and neither of the two umpires carried a list of decertified bats. My thought at the time was was you got to be kidding? Our coach tried one more time to explain to both the game umpires and the opposing coach that the 33inch Marucci CAT5 BBCOR was ruled decertified not the 33inch Marucci Black BBCOR my son was using. Fell on deaf ears… their decision stood. Next batter was retired …inning over.

The next day after an exchange of cordial emails, the PIAA Baseball Rules Administration -Marty Ondrovic confirmed (what we already knew) the Marucci Black BBCOR is legal and the runner should have been safe. There are only two decertified BBCOR bats, how hard is it for the umpires to carry a picture and description for both? Shame on the opposing coach and umpires for their actions. I printed the PIAA Baseball Rules Administration's email and a picture of both bats for my son to keep in his bat bag. However, I'm not sure the Marucci Black BBCOR is worth the drama. My son was embarrassed, it prolly caused our team a big inning, our coach (a great guy and fantastic teacher) who remained calm was needlessly subjected to the drama, and I was so hissed off at the opposing coach and the umpires, I said hardly a word on the drive home.
quote:
Originally posted by jp24:
Wow. Unbelievable. My two cents: All wood, all the time.

Aside from the revenue hit to bat companies, what's the real downside?


The real downside is, its not the fault of the bats, the bat manufacturers, or the rules, but rather ignorant coaches and umpires. Going to all wood wouldn’t solve the problem, but just ignore it. This entire paradigm happens every time there’s a major change in the rules, and a segment of the interested parties run around with their hair on fire.

But, it takes a little bit of time to work this stuff out, and you have to remember that for all of HS baseball other than Ca, this entire issue is only a few months old, so there’s gonna be problems! Out here in Ca there are still isolated instances, but in general the problems with the bats are almost nil, and the same thing will happen in the rest of the country next season.

People just don’t want to wait for anything anymore. Every change has to be instantaneous and work perfectly, and that’s just not the way the world works. Those of you who are so eager to go to woog to do away with all the problems non-wood brings need to take a hit on a longneck, a doobie, or whatever you use to chill out. Wink
It's my belief, that over time, more and more BBCOR bats will test "south" as more and more manufacturers try to get as close to the limit as possible without allowing for for manufacturing variences. The submitted bats will test fine and achieve BBCOR CERT but a few of the "production run" will later be found to be too hot resulting in decertification.

We'll end up with a "list" similiar to the last year of BESR and umpires will once again have to spend 20 minutes verifying each bat intended to be used in a game.
quote:
quote:
I enjoy the crack of the bat sound of a well hit ball off of a wooden bat too..........and I get that at MLB games....but "the sound" alone is not a vaild reason to switch to wood....



This caught my eye, LOL, because it was the "sound of the PING" that caused a recertified Rip It to be removed. Fortunately it was the other team's bat Big Grin

At least "Blue" was consistent! Gotta love that
quote:
Originally posted by Harv:
It's my belief, that over time, more and more BBCOR bats will test "south" as more and more manufacturers try to get as close to the limit as possible without allowing for for manufacturing variences. The submitted bats will test fine and achieve BBCOR CERT but a few of the "production run" will later be found to be too hot resulting in decertification.


Isn’t that exactly how the system should work?

quote:
We'll end up with a "list" similiar to the last year of BESR and umpires will once again have to spend 20 minutes verifying each bat intended to be used in a game.


I don’t know what it’s like there in Colorado, but I watched well over 250 games under BESR, and I never saw any umpire crew take as much as 5 minutes in a dugout, let alone 20.
2012 Baseball Bulletin II: 5/4/2012

DECERTIFICATION OF 33-INCH MARUCCI CAT5 AND REEBOK VECTOR BATS

The 33 inch Mariucci and Reebok Vector bats have been de-certified by the NCAA and are now listed as non-compliant bats. By this action, these bats are not to be used in PIAA member schools contests. Please review all information posted upon the PIAA web site on the baseball page for more details on the Mariucci bat.


Found this on the PIAA web site today. This is their most current rules update bulletin.
I think the writer of this bulletin screwed the pooch again!
The headline of DECERTIFICATION OF 33-INCH MARUCCI CAT5 AND REEBOK VECTOR BATS is fine. However, the text of the bulletin refers to "the 33 inch Mariucci" as a non-compliant bat. There are 3 different 33inch Marucci bats! ( the Team Marucci, the Marucci Black and the Marucci CAT5 ). Why can't they explain to their game officials (umpires) the needed info required to know which Marucci is decertified? They don't even spell Marucci correctly in the text of the bulletin. That is embarrassing!
Last edited by Crusader Dad
That is a very poorly worded press release, hope Marucci reps call the Penn Association & let them know what they think of such a bungled statement. All state associations are playing under NFHS rules, don't see how it's that hard to get it right. Also agree it's not that hard to pull up the exact exclusionary rule at the field on an Ipad or Iphone.

The Cat5's are extremely popular in our area, have been since late last summer. A few local HS's even connected with a Marucci rep & bought cases of them over the winter. Most were 32's, so not a lot of complaining when the 33's were banned. My youngest has alternated between a 32" Cat5 & a teammates 33" S1 all season. The week after the 33" Cat5's were banned the 32" Cat5 was checked by several plate umps after opposing fans & coaches made some noise. All the plate umps encountered knew the 32" Cat was legal, so no problems.
Again, maybe I'm missing something here. What is the DOWNSIDE to all wood, all ages, all the time?

Sandgnats .. you said: "The real downside is, it's not the fault of the bats, the bat manufacturers, or the rules, but rather ignorant coaches and umpires. Going to all wood wouldn’t solve the problem, but just ignore it."

What am I missing? Wood is wood.

I do have a theory: A lot of players, coaches and parents fear wood. I'm not there. I say bring it on!!
quote:
Originally posted by jp24:
Again, maybe I'm missing something here. What is the DOWNSIDE to all wood, all ages, all the time?

What am I missing? Wood is wood.


I agree with you, but 'wood' isn't just wood, these days. There are laminates and composites. Should they be allowed? I think if they were, we would have the same thing, all over again- bat companies trying to stretch the limits and bend the rules to say their 'wood' is better.
Stats4Gnats, you know, we're always looking for good people to get involved and 'give back'. You indicate that coaches and umpires are part of the problem, so perhaps you should join NCOA and begin umpiring, or apply for Coach Rinaldi's job. Both the coaching and umpiring ranks can use more good people, so... step up to the plate and do something about it rather than just talk about what is wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by AntzDad:
quote:
Originally posted by jp24:
Again, maybe I'm missing something here. What is the DOWNSIDE to all wood, all ages, all the time?

What am I missing? Wood is wood.


I agree with you, but 'wood' isn't just wood, these days. There are laminates and composites. Should they be allowed? I think if they were, we would have the same thing, all over again- bat companies trying to stretch the limits and bend the rules to say their 'wood' is better.


AntzDad, you are right. If they allowed the laminates and composites we are back to the root of the problem - which is players and bat manufactures seeking the hottest bat out there, regaurdless of the rules. It will just create more certification and decertification issues. Just use good ole' fashioned wood period.
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
The answer is just manufacture the wood bats used in professional baseball and use them at all levels. Problem solved. It ain't rocket science.

Does anyone know how much it would cost for a high school program if they were forced to use all wood? Either the program or the individual kids would have to incur the cost. It's just not realistic.
quote:
Originally posted by ironhorse:
Does anyone know how much it would cost for a high school program if they were forced to use all wood? Either the program or the individual kids would have to incur the cost. It's just not realistic.


Good question, we have 12 BBCOR (~200$ * 12 = 2400$) bats at our school. I do not know if we plan to replace them with new ones next year or not. I could buy 60 Louisville sluggers at 39.99 apiece for that amount of money, and if I ordered them in bulk I’ll bet LS would give me a deal. Quite frankly, I think the players need to supply their own bats.
quote:
Originally posted by bballdad2016:
quote:
Originally posted by ironhorse:
Does anyone know how much it would cost for a high school program if they were forced to use all wood? Either the program or the individual kids would have to incur the cost. It's just not realistic.


Good question, we have 12 BBCOR (~200$ * 12 = 2400$) bats at our school. I do not know if we plan to replace them with new ones next year or not. I could buy 60 Louisville sluggers at 39.99 apiece for that amount of money, and if I ordered them in bulk I’ll bet LS would give me a deal. Quite frankly, I think the players need to supply their own bats.


Only problem with this is it now becomes a pay to play issue. I know a lot of places already do this but as the new AD at my school, and our principal, we are going to do everything to avoid a pay to play situation at our school.

Some kids just won't be able to afford paying for that many wood bats. I know you will get the higher quality bats for game use and some cheaper one for practice but it's still a huge cost no matter how you look at it.
quote:
Originally posted by 06catcherdad:
Stats4Gnats, you know, we're always looking for good people to get involved and 'give back'. You indicate that coaches and umpires are part of the problem, so perhaps you should join NCOA and begin umpiring, or apply for Coach Rinaldi's job. Both the coaching and umpiring ranks can use more good people, so... step up to the plate and do something about it rather than just talk about what is wrong.


Sounds easy enough doesn’t it, but I can’t, and even if I could, I doubt that I would. At my age I don’t suffer fools very well, and it would lead to unacceptable results. I do what I do because I can do it very well and hopefully add to the experience for everyone.

Are you saying that coaches and/or umpires are perfect, or is it that you’re saying nothing is ever their fault about anything? In fact, I’m not sure what you’re saying. You act as though I took some kind of bass ackwards shot at a coach, but I’m not sure how you get there.
quote:
Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Coach2709 - Our school (booster club) already forks over the mulah for bats. No pay to play there. Here is a thought, if a kid does not have his own bat what does he do outside of the HS season?


Many Booster clubs do the same, and many programs have fund raisers that provide $$$$ that could be used, but its far from ALL. Frown

Maybe I’m just too old to understand, but what exactly is it that you think going to wood will accomplish for the game? IOW, what will it do to make the game better?

What makes a $34.99 woodie http://www.justbats.com/produc...lbm9ybh-youth/10813/ something better than a $39.95 non-wood BBCOR? http://www.cheapbats.com/shop/...222&products_id=2590
quote:
Originally posted by bballdad2016:
Coach2709 - Our school (booster club) already forks over the mulah for bats. No pay to play there. Here is a thought, if a kid does not have his own bat what does he do outside of the HS season?


I really don't have an answer to that other than if we're not careful baseball will price itself into a place where lower income kids won't be able to play the game.

Stats, I think 06catcherdad hit the nail on the head. Most of your posts in this thread have been throwing the head coach of your team under the bus. I wouldn't be surprised if he told you to just go away and not come back. I know I would.
quote:
Originally posted by ironhorse:
quote:
Originally posted by zombywoof:
The answer is just manufacture the wood bats used in professional baseball and use them at all levels. Problem solved. It ain't rocket science.

Does anyone know how much it would cost for a high school program if they were forced to use all wood? Either the program or the individual kids would have to incur the cost. It's just not realistic.
If you want to find out contact a Catholic League high school in Boston. It's a wood bat league. My son played 50-60 games of wood bat in the summer. I don't recollect an outrageous number of broken bats. He broke two. That's means he used $120 worth of wood bats over the games versus a $250-300 metal bat.
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
I really don't have an answer to that other than if we're not careful baseball will price itself into a place where lower income kids won't be able to play the game.


In many places, its already there, and the equipment is only part of the problem.

quote:
Stats, I think 06catcherdad hit the nail on the head. Most of your posts in this thread have been throwing the head coach of your team under the bus. I wouldn't be surprised if he told you to just go away and not come back. I know I would.


I’m sure you would coach, but then again, I haven’t found you to be someone who took criticism, even constructive and/or valid criticism well. I haven’t said a thing about the guy I score for that I haven’t said to his face, but he knows that no matter what I say, there’s an underlying respect for him that will never go away. There are just some things I don’t happen to agree with him on. It doesn’t mean I think he’s an idiot, it just means we disagree.

People have lost the ability to accept that not everyone is gonna agree with everything they think and do, and it’s a shame. You act as though the only people you want around you are “yes” men who not only have no spine, but worse haven’t got the ability to think for themselves. Reminds me of the old movies where the servant is bowing and saying “Yas massa”. Its too bad those days are still with us.

BTW, its obvious you haven’t read any of the things I’ve written in the last 7 years where I’ve said I wiosh my kid would have had the chance to play for this guy, or where I’ve said over and over again how he has a kind of Midas touch with players where he can somehow get the most disparate group of kids to work together and function as a team. No, all you want to do is take a very few instances where all I did was speak the truth about things that really took place, and you have me throwing the guy under the bus. That’s pathetic.
RJM and Catcherdad;

During my 20 years [wood bats since 1987] with the Area Code games, not including the 30 years w/ International Goodwill Series [wood bats in Australia].

This is an interesting "stat". Eight teams each year, 4 games each team, each team has 9 players per team X 20 years = 23,240.00 AB's

Ask me how many wood bats broken? VERY FEW!!!!!!!

The average pitcher is throwing 88 to 98 mph.

BOB WILLIAMS
quote:
Originally posted by Stats4Gnats:
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
I really don't have an answer to that other than if we're not careful baseball will price itself into a place where lower income kids won't be able to play the game.


In many places, its already there, and the equipment is only part of the problem.

quote:
Stats, I think 06catcherdad hit the nail on the head. Most of your posts in this thread have been throwing the head coach of your team under the bus. I wouldn't be surprised if he told you to just go away and not come back. I know I would.


I’m sure you would coach, but then again, I haven’t found you to be someone who took criticism, even constructive and/or valid criticism well. I haven’t said a thing about the guy I score for that I haven’t said to his face, but he knows that no matter what I say, there’s an underlying respect for him that will never go away. There are just some things I don’t happen to agree with him on. It doesn’t mean I think he’s an idiot, it just means we disagree.

People have lost the ability to accept that not everyone is gonna agree with everything they think and do, and it’s a shame. You act as though the only people you want around you are “yes” men who not only have no spine, but worse haven’t got the ability to think for themselves. Reminds me of the old movies where the servant is bowing and saying “Yas massa”. Its too bad those days are still with us.

BTW, its obvious you haven’t read any of the things I’ve written in the last 7 years where I’ve said I wiosh my kid would have had the chance to play for this guy, or where I’ve said over and over again how he has a kind of Midas touch with players where he can somehow get the most disparate group of kids to work together and function as a team. No, all you want to do is take a very few instances where all I did was speak the truth about things that really took place, and you have me throwing the guy under the bus. That’s pathetic.


And this is me not caring what you think. You and I have butted heads before on here and while you have made some good posts with good information I believe I can honestly say that most of your posts just rub me the wrong way. So instead of turning this into a long drawn out *** contest I'm putting you on the ignore list. I seriously recommend that you do the same with me.

Have a good one or not - I don't really care.

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