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You can cancel HS or college or do online or whatever you want but you are not stopping HS students and college students from congregating.  So the PROFESSIONALS need to find a way to do school.  The kids are already developing ways to beat the you have to wear a mask thing.  I listened to a group of girls the other night name which teachers would uphold it and which would care less. 

A discussion somewhere else on the internet was what would you do with teachers who refuse to come back to the live classroom.  Would that be grounds for termination?  Not showing up for work.

@PitchingFan posted:

You can cancel HS or college or do online or whatever you want but you are not stopping HS students and college students from congregating.  So the PROFESSIONALS need to find a way to do school.  The kids are already developing ways to beat the you have to wear a mask thing.  I listened to a group of girls the other night name which teachers would uphold it and which would care less. 

A discussion somewhere else on the internet was what would you do with teachers who refuse to come back to the live classroom.  Would that be grounds for termination?  Not showing up for work.

My wife is a teacher and we were talking about his the other night. Kids are hanging out now and not wearing masks or distancing. The schools have all these measures for classes, but what about after school? Kids are gonna be kids. 

My county surveyed the teachers and any who are medically vulnerable will not be in classrooms. They are either doing virtual or 1 on 1. Not sure if that includes teachers who are just scared. 

Let me make sure everyone knows.  I don't think they should be fired but put in online classrooms.  It was just an interesting topic as it came up and to hear so many opinions.  I just think there are some classes that do not work online even close to being there in person and do not see how they will be done either college or HS.  I also know as my wife is a social worker that the world is a lot worse place when kids do not have the outlet of going to school to get away from their home environment in a lot of homes.  For many, this is their only escape and their only food.

My daughter just got her updated Holy Cross fall schedule and EVERY one of her classes are online.  ALL OF THEM.  She is insisting to go live in the dorms.  I am trying to explain the finances.... Now this is very real to me.   All online and no discounts.   Should be interesting to see the blowback from parents.   I suspect Sophomores and Junior classes are mostly if not all online with hopes they stay home for the semester so they can socially distance in the dorms.....

Here’s something a lot of people don’t consider about kids being stuck at home. I couldn’t imagine as a kid being stuck at home with my alcoholic, Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde father. He started his days as a sharp executive. He was a social drinker. A drink at lunch, one or two with the boys on the way home, one before dinner, one with dinner, and a drink at his side all evening. Then, the ridicule would start. This was when he didn’t just stay at a bar from the end of work until closing time. Then I had a shot at being in bed at the least faking asleep. But right now, all the kinds of places he would go are closed. Use my mother for protection? She left when I was ten. I wouldn’t have bothered with school. I would have left on my bike every day. 

There are a lot more of these situations than you know. Don’t judge a house by its cover. Behind that big brick house front door might be a raging alcoholic who never emotionally progressed beyond immature, drunken frat boy jock. One of my friends had a worse situation with a successful, but temperamental Italian father with an old school philosophy kids should be hit rather than heard. He lived in fear everyday. 

Every parent fears the late night call when kids are driving and possibly drinking. In my family the situation was in reverse. I got the call about my father. I only went to the funeral because it would have ticked off my grandmother to skip it. But I couldn’t even fake looking upset. 

I rarely, ever think about my parents. Maybe, subconsciously the experience is why I’m so resistant to lockdown.  

Last edited by RJM

My daughter just got her updated Holy Cross fall schedule and EVERY one of her classes are online.  ALL OF THEM.  She is insisting to go live in the dorms.  I am trying to explain the finances.... Now this is very real to me.   All online and no discounts.   Should be interesting to see the blowback from parents.   I suspect Sophomores and Junior classes are mostly if not all online with hopes they stay home for the semester so they can socially distance in the dorms.....

Gunner:

Is that ALL Holy Cross Classes, or the classes your daughter selected? I am asking as I am adjunct at a similar school. I also read where students have 24 hrs to go home if they have Covid and live within 250 miles of HC

@Ripken Fan posted:

Gunner:

Is that ALL Holy Cross Classes, or the classes your daughter selected? I am asking as I am adjunct at a similar school. I also read where students have 24 hrs to go home if they have Covid and live within 250 miles of HC

Holy Cross does have that rule that if you live within 250 miles you must come to get your child with Covid in 24 hours.   Not all classes are on-line.  They are online, hybrid and in person.  All of her classes are online.   She's checked with a lot of people and its a mix of kids getting all on-line and some combination of on-line and hybrid.  She's still processing this right now as am I.

Last edited by Gunner Mack Jr.

Are you upset that the classes are online, and would prefer in-person?  Or are you upset that she wants to live in the dorms when she could live at home?

I would support whatever my daughter decided about where she would want to take classes, from home or on campus.  It's not the money but I do think it's absurd that all online classes cost the full $27k in tuition for the semester and with all the restrictions about interactions on campus is not going to be what she thinks it's going to be like.   She has to work through it.   I have no issues at all if she had in-person classes with kids next to each other, no masks.  I feel bad for her college experience but it is what it is at this point.

Last edited by Gunner Mack Jr.
@RJM posted:

Here’s something a lot of people don’t consider about kids being stuck at home. I couldn’t imagine as a kid being stuck at home with my alcoholic, Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde father. He started his days as a sharp executive. He was a social drinker. A drink at lunch, one or two with the boys on the way home, one before dinner, one with dinner, and a drink at his side all evening. Then, the ridicule would start. This was when he didn’t just stay at a bar from the end of work until closing time. Then I had a shot at being in bed at the least faking asleep. But right now, all the kinds of places he would go are closed. Use my mother for protection? She left when I was ten. I wouldn’t have bothered with school. I would have left on my bike every day. 

There are a lot more of these situations than you know. Don’t judge a house by its cover. Behind that big brick house front door might be a raging alcoholic who never emotionally progressed beyond immature, drunken frat boy jock. One of my friends had a worse situation with a successful, but temperamental Italian father with an old school philosophy kids should be hit rather than heard. He lived in fear everyday. 

Every parent fears the late night call when kids are driving and possibly drinking. In my family the situation was in reverse. I got the call about my father. I only went to the funeral because it would have ticked off my grandmother to skip it. But I couldn’t even fake looking upset. 

I rarely, ever think about my parents. Maybe, subconsciously the experience is why I’m so resistant to lockdown.  

No family life is perfect. People would be surprised at who has lived through horrible situations.  Kids need to be able to use the resources available to them. 

@RJM posted:

Here’s something a lot of people don’t consider about kids being stuck at home. I couldn’t imagine as a kid being stuck at home with my alcoholic, Dr Jekyl and Mr Hyde father. He started his days as a sharp executive. He was a social drinker. A drink at lunch, one or two with the boys on the way home, one before dinner, one with dinner, and a drink at his side all evening. Then, the ridicule would start. This was when he didn’t just stay at a bar from the end of work until closing time. Then I had a shot at being in bed at the least faking asleep. But right now, all the kinds of places he would go are closed. Use my mother for protection? She left when I was ten. I wouldn’t have bothered with school. I would have left on my bike every day. 

There are a lot more of these situations than you know. Don’t judge a house by its cover. Behind that big brick house front door might be a raging alcoholic who never emotionally progressed beyond immature, drunken frat boy jock. One of my friends had a worse situation with a successful, but temperamental Italian father with an old school philosophy kids should be hit rather than heard. He lived in fear everyday. 

Every parent fears the late night call when kids are driving and possibly drinking. In my family the situation was in reverse. I got the call about my father. I only went to the funeral because it would have ticked off my grandmother to skip it. But I couldn’t even fake looking upset. 

I rarely, ever think about my parents. Maybe, subconsciously the experience is why I’m so resistant to lockdown.  

Learned through my wife’s experience and coaching that there is no clear definition of an abusive home.  It happens on all sides of town and on all streets and roads.  

Although my son’s school is having some in-person classes this fall, he looked at the course listings yesterday and all the freshman classes are online.  Meanwhile, his coach is being extremely hands on with all the incoming players and they’ll be able to practice in some form and workout with the team.  I contrast this with my friends’ kids who are going off to college to sit in a dorm, take online classes, and seek their own extracurricular activities (many of which will likely result in campuses completely shutting down again).  I am extremely grateful that my son has baseball in this environment no matter what happens in the spring.

@BackstopMom posted:

Although my son’s school is having some in-person classes this fall, he looked at the course listings yesterday and all the freshman classes are online.  Meanwhile, his coach is being extremely hands on with all the incoming players and they’ll be able to practice in some form and workout with the team.  I contrast this with my friends’ kids who are going off to college to sit in a dorm, take online classes, and seek their own extracurricular activities (many of which will likely result in campuses completely shutting down again).  I am extremely grateful that my son has baseball in this environment no matter what happens in the spring.

My son just registered for his Freshman classes this am and got everything in his time slots that he wanted.  A huge win.  Baseball will be practicing in the fall in the afternoon and he's all AM.   Baseball practice may have to break into two different groups though but they will be interacting non the less.  Also three out of his four classes are actually in person.  I too am happy my son has baseball in this environment.

I have posted this already but my daughter has 4 of 4 classes online (sophomore), will be going back to dorms to take them and I 100% agree that she will have to find ways to socialize which will just be impossible without breaking the guidelines... they are testing all kids weekly ....there will be many positive cases no matter how much they lock them down, how can there not be.  Will be interesting to see what Fauci's undergrad school does about this and / or when they pull the plug and send all home.  If NBA and MLB has 5-6% positive rates I have to think that 5-6% of college students will test positive when they arrive (asymptomatic).   

Last edited by Gunner Mack Jr.

Holy Cross does have that rule that if you live within 250 miles you must come to get your child with Covid in 24 hours.   Not all classes are on-line.  They are online, hybrid and in person.  All of her classes are online.   She's checked with a lot of people and its a mix of kids getting all on-line and some combination of on-line and hybrid.  She's still processing this right now as am I.

Been away a little while, but I have a question about the above post.  Holy Cross is requiring parents to take infected kids back home?  That's a recipe for spreading the virus to new places (and to the parent who drives their kid).  I thought all schools inviting students back to campus were planning to offer some kind of quarantined housing for anyone who tests positive or is directly exposed.  

Been away a little while, but I have a question about the above post.  Holy Cross is requiring parents to take infected kids back home?  That's a recipe for spreading the virus to new places (and to the parent who drives their kid).  I thought all schools inviting students back to campus were planning to offer some kind of quarantined housing for anyone who tests positive or is directly exposed.  

Unfortunately, that is correct.  If you live within 250 miles of the campus and your child tests positive for Covid you have 24 hours to get them off campus.   They will make accommodations for those that have at risk people living in their home. Initially Holy Cross said any positive student would be quarantined on campus but when the official policy came out this past weekend they switched it to the 250 mile rule.  If my son gets it his college will put him in a single with a full bath and a kitchen and assign someone to watch him!  I think Holy Cross is a great school but I am struggling with some of their decisions but I will grant that these are unprecedented times.

Gotta say, I don’t like that Holy Cross policy. I haven’t heard of anything similar at other schools. 

I also will have kids at 2 different colleges this fall. Neither will know for some weeks yet how many of their classes will be online. If I were the cynical type, I might think schools are delaying so more kids will plan to come to campus...  Both my offspring have made clear, however, that taking classes on their laptops from a dorm room will be better than living with mom and dad for even a split second longer than absolutely required.

I didn’t expect a tuition reduction (and am shocked a few schools are offering them), but I am curious to see if any other charges are cut. Fees for gyms and other facilities that are closed or severely limited?  Sorority dues for a chapter that can’t have everyone in the same room, much less hold social or service events?  Meal plan charges for boxed, take-out food, versus the usual plethora of all-you-can eat options?  I don’t expect any discounts, but that seems wrong to me. 

Have any schools scaled back their testing plans?  Some testing has to happen, but given backlogs in many states, I wonder if some of the plans will get pared down. 

There will be no discounts at all at Holy Cross!  They gave better reasons this time - new technology, new teacher training to improve quality of on line learning etc.   The costs of delivering online is more for colleges because they have to pay the teachers, they have the classrooms just sitting there and they need new technology.  However if you really think about it they are passing on the costs of new software and technology onto the current students when they should be capitalizing these costs.  They are not one time operating costs, they are improvements in PP&E (been years since accounting for me tho).  I would think this is where an endowment would be helpful. 

The only other logical ask that I can think of is that you are sending kids home a month early.   However you are keeping them during fall break and maybe starting them a week or a few days early.   Our kids will be there 2-3 weeks less than if they went back post Thanksgiving for finals.   That could mean a small discount on Room and Board and meals but its not being offered.   So I have sent in full payment.  I have made my mental adjustments of what I think they should have done and when they come calling for donations they will hear my reasoning for not giving for a number of years.  That is how I get my control which I obviously crave.

I received an email from my daughter's college (Wake Forest) just after I posted my prior message.  Turns out they are discounting room & board by 10%, because students are going back at the regular time in August, but ending at Thanksgiving.  But you have to pay the full 100% initially--students who don't come back after Thanksgiving break get their 10% refunded; those who successfully petition to stay through the end of exams do not.  A strange way to do things, since most kids presumably will not return for one week of classes plus exams.  No word on activities fees, etc.

The entire "college experience" package will be greatly diminished (and was no bargain even in normal times at a private college).  But I'll be writing the checks anyhow.

My son’s school is giving a small discount on room and board for the shortened fall session.  They also told us if a student becomes ill they will be placed in an Isolation dorm.  If they are exposed to COVID as reflected in another student’s contact log or is discovered some other way, they will be sent to a Quarantine dorm where they will be tested and remain for however long is determined necessary.  I don’t even want to think what the calls will be like if he ends up in the Quarantine dorm!

The irony is that teaching online is more work than teaching in person, and professors are putting in large amounts of time to convert their classes to online formats.  Many administrators are putting in hours and hours of extra labor (some unpaid) to switch over schedules and classrooms and computer systems.  The same is true of any other businesses, too, which have converted to new formats.  So, some staff and facilities are being used less, but others are being used more.  I doubt anyone could come up with a true accounting.  They are trying to provide the best service that they can, under the constraints they have, for the customer - whether the customer will accept it remains to be seen.

I would say that life on campus even with quarantine will be fine.  Students will find ways of interacting with each other.  The value of being in a community in which everyone is doing the same thing (taking classes) is immeasurable.

The irony is that teaching online is more work than teaching in person, and professors are putting in large amounts of time to convert their classes to online formats. 
—————-

At most schools I know of, students can opt to take most in-person classes online. Many courses also plan to have groups of students alternate between online and in-person.  This means classes this semester are effectively going to be taught in both formats, which is going to mean a lot more work for profs. 

I agree the community on campus is important. I also agree students will find ways to interact—although many of those will not be at all socially distanced, I expect.

Last edited by Chico Escuela

The good news is that many (possibly most) online courses will be substantially better this fall than they were in spring.  In March, profs had anywhere from a weekend (at my school) to a couple of weeks to convert all their classes from in-person midstream.  Students and teachers also had to learn Zoom, WebEx, etc. on short notice.  

I'm not saying online is going to be as satisfactory as college circa 2019.  But I do think the coming semester's online offerings will be much improved.

Our D3 in town is bringing in students two weeks earlier than usually, asking them to first quarantine themselves at home for two weeks prior to coming, then alternate attending class in person to maintain social distancing and only socialize with others on their floor/building (it's a small school) for the first two weeks at school. Once they have a sense of cases (and they expect them and have isolation housing ready when needed), they will widen or narrow the boundaries as needed. They will have daily class, including on Labor Day, and then send the students home for Thanksgiving. They'l do their last week of class there and take their finals online and hopefully be able to come back for spring semester.

There also are rules about wearing masks outside your dorm, grab and go meals instead of buffet style, etc.

It's an interesting plan and if people actually follow through, could be workable. They also are planning football. We'll see.

My NESCAC son, soon to be Junior let me view some of his online classes for the purpose of: check out my high priced Prof teaching online. What a joke.

1/4 of Profs shouldn’t be teaching online to anyone. (Maybe I’m hi by 100%, not the point)

There needs to be training for these Profs, for online teaching. Shell  shocked W price tag I’m paying for this shit. On positive note: 2 of the Profs were rock stars. Change of times, I know.... 

But: I’m paying the 73k per yr if they’re on campus AND the Profs have the right to teach online from their abodes.

Am I wrong about anything here ??? Maybe I’m the dunce in the room.... (RJM will pounce...🤣)

Last edited by Gov
@Gov posted:

My NESCAC son, soon to be Junior let me view some of his online classes for the purpose of: check out my high priced Prof teaching online. What a joke.

1/4 of Profs shouldn’t be teaching online to anyone. (Maybe I’m hi by 100%, not the point)

There needs to be training for these Profs, for online teaching. Shell  shocked W price tag I’m paying for this shit. On positive note: 2 of the Profs were rock stars. Change of times, I know.... 

But: I’m paying the 73k per yr if they’re on campus AND the Profs have the right to teach online from their abodes.

Am I wrong about anything here ??? Maybe I’m the dunce in the room.... (RJM will pounce...🤣)

Lots of profs are not so great in person in the classroom either.  I'm guessing you had some great professors in your college days, and others who were, ummm, less effective.

Remember, you become a professor (at most schools) chiefly by publishing articles no one outside your field can understand.  Small liberal arts colleges like the NESCAC schools do put more of a premium on teaching.  But unlike K-12 teachers, professors generally don't get any formal training in how to run a classroom, prepare assessments, etc.  Many profs do seek out this kind of info and take teaching very seriously.  But others... not so much.  (Different styles appeal to different folks, too.  My year-end evaluations from my students often have one person saying some aspect of the class was terrible, while a classmate insists that same element was great. There is no pleasing everyone.)

Will socially distant college be worth the price of private schools?  I'm skeptical.  But as I've said before in this thread, gap year options are mighty slim, so socially distant college seems like the least-worst alternative.     

Lots of profs are not so great in person in the classroom either.  I'm guessing you had some great professors in your college days, and others who were, ummm, less effective.

Remember, you become a professor (at most schools) chiefly by publishing articles no one outside your field can understand.  Small liberal arts colleges like the NESCAC schools do put more of a premium on teaching.  But unlike K-12 teachers, professors generally don't get any formal training in how to run a classroom, prepare assessments, etc.  Many profs do seek out this kind of info and take teaching very seriously.  But others... not so much.  (Different styles appeal to different folks, too.  My year-end evaluations from my students often have one person saying some aspect of the class was terrible, while a classmate insists that same element was great. There is no pleasing everyone.)

Will socially distant college be worth the price of private schools?  I'm skeptical.  But as I've said before in this thread, gap year options are mighty slim, so socially distant college seems like the least-worst alternative.     

I agree with all of this, and I'd add that socially distant college will be far better than online-only.  "Worth the cost"?  Taking college classes does several things.  You learn from an expert in the field, preferably by live word-of-mouth teaching, discussion, asking questions.  You talk to the prof outside of class about things that interest you.  You do readings, assignments, papers, tests, which, it can be argued, is where most of your real learning takes place, and you get feedback on your work so that you can improve next time.  Would you do that work, and get that feedback, without a class structure?  Who sets all those things up?  I definitely had profs whose classroom style was not to my taste, but whose assignments were brilliant.  Much of all that will be missing in distanced/online classes, but much of it will still be there. 

I had in book, self instruction for Econ 101 and 102. Going to class made no sense other than to take exams. I couldn’t understand a word the TA’s from India said. Starting at the 200 level Quantitative Methodology (my concentration, basically calculus/statistical analysis) was too complicated to miss.  

Going to poly sci classes were nothing but an endorsement of communism or socialism. I told them and wrote what they want to hear and walked away with the A. 

For the most part I felt going to class and paying attention in college made it easy to get at least a B. Actually doing the work made college easy.

@RJM posted:

I had in book, self instruction for Econ 101 and 102. Going to class made no sense other than to take exams. I couldn’t understand a word the TA’s from India said. Starting at the 200 level Quantitative Methodology (my concentration, basically calculus/statistical analysis) was too complicated to miss.  

Going to poly sci classes were nothing but an endorsement of communism or socialism. I told them and wrote what they want to hear and walked away with the A. 

For the most part I felt going to class and paying attention in college made it easy to get at least a B. Actually doing the work made college easy.

Most of those classes can be taken in HS now.  I don't think my kid has any GER requirements, and only major courses when he starts.

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