If you are a 2023 without one actual offer now, is it too late for you now...especially considering the overall situation with rosters due to the extra COVID-19 years?
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d3s are still recruiting, so no.
There is no blanket answer to that question. The only answer that applies across the board is “it depends.” Situations vary from region to region- and also vary depending on level of play.
In the Sun Belt the competitive D1s have filled their class of ‘23. A random need will appear a few places due to something unexpected but for the most part they are done. Same for competitive D2s. D3s and JuCos are well along the way but not finished yet.
So at this point in time, in my area, if you don’t have an offer it’s time to recalibrate your sights. Either the market is telling you that your expectations were unrealistic or your ability hasn’t been recognized and you have fallen thru the cracks. Either way it’s time to implement plan B in a hurry. There are still tryout camps on JuCo campuses in September. It’s not hard to set up individual tryouts if you have an advocate with JuCo coach connections. That would be a good avenue to pursue in this part of the country.
No matter what your initial strategy hasn’t worked very well if you have no offers yet - assuming that there isn’t an injury involved. Time to shift gears if baseball is important to you.
For D1 position player, maybe. Lots of coaches from all levels are still looking at pitchers. For high academic D3’s I believe if you don’t have a formal offer for a visit then you should change your sites.
Many non-D1’s are holding prospect camps over the next few weeks where I believe they will wrap up their classes.
A major injury just before expecting offers changed my son’s timeline. He received D1 offers the summer after graduation. The one he took was for the following year. He tried to walk on the first year. He lost out to a late bloomer pitcher now in the majors. His offer included athletic money the following year.
When do walk ons typically commit or make their decision? I know one 2023 that committed to an ACC last summer
@TerribleBPthrower posted:When do walk ons typically commit or make their decision? I know one 2023 that committed to an ACC last summer
D1 walk ons usually commit anywhere from 3 to 6 months before they are cut from the team.
This is peak D3 recruiting season. If you do not have an offer by October it would be time to consider which school is the best fit without baseball
There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
D3 recruiting in New England is really busy right now and with so many D3 schools offering top educations as well, there are still a lot of good opportunities to be landed. I think the ED deadlines of 10-15-11/1 is when it really starts to end but even then there is time at many D3s into winter.
Massachusetts is the 15th largest state with a 7M population. There are 36 D3 baseball programs. 29 of them are in the Greater Boston area. This does not include D3 JuCo programs.
Tons of JUCO’s and D3’s to still be recruited by.
(Checks calendar). Isn’t it just late August? My 2021 committed to a D3 in late Sept/Early Oct of 2020
@adbono posted:There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
Huge differences. D3/D2 and NAIA schools are way more prominent than DI schools in the upper midwest as well. There's also only a handful of highly competitive JUCO's within the upper midwest. There are actually only 4 DI schools within 250 miles of where I live (2 are P5 schools). For kids that want to play DI closer to home, the competition is extremely fierce! My son is the first DI baseball player to ever come out of our high school!!! The few that do go on to play college ball almost all play D3 and don't commit until late fall/early winter of their senior year.
@adbono posted:There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
Up here you can't drive 15-20 minutes in any direction without running into a D3. Many of them are HA schools, which make playing D3 baseball more appealing than going to a juco for most. There is also snobbish attitude towards jucos up here which is undeserved. If you took a poll, odds are 80% of parents would rather send their kids to a below average, expensive, private college than juco for two years. It doesn't make sense. That being said...
The kids committing to jucos up here are either
A. D1 dropdowns
B. D1 recruits who never made it to campus or were injured during recruitment
C. Decent players who didn't have NCAA grades
@adbono posted:There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
Very true. Another difference is costs. I think most or all of the TX D3s are private. We have an abundance of good public D3 baseball options in the northeast (especially PA and NY). That factors into the juco equation for some kids.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Very true. Another difference is costs. I think most or all of the TX D3s are private. We have an abundance of good public D3 baseball options in the northeast (especially PA and NY). That factors into the juco equation for some kids.
Good point. To the best of my knowledge, the University of Texas-Dallas is the only public D3 in Texas that has a baseball program. And it isn’t cheap. COA at UTD is on par with Texas A&M and UT. Sticker price at private Texas D3 schools is higher but they “somehow” usually find enough financial aid to make out of pocket costs comparable. D3 schools in Texas by and large don’t get much respect - on both the athletic and educational front. Which is unfair because Austin College, Trinity, U of Dallas, Southwestern, and UTD (just to name a few) are fine academic institutions. At least they used to be. And D3 baseball has gotten noticeably better in the past 2 years as talent has been pushed down and more players have transferred to D3 schools.
@adbono posted:Good point. To the best of my knowledge, the University of Texas-Dallas is the only public D3 in Texas that has a baseball program. And it isn’t cheap. COA at UTD is on par with Texas A&M and UT. Sticker price at private Texas D3 schools is higher but they “somehow” usually find enough financial aid to make out of pocket costs comparable. D3 schools in Texas by and large don’t get much respect - on both the athletic and educational front. Which is unfair because Austin College, Trinity, U of Dallas, Southwestern, and UTD (just to name a few) are fine academic institutions. At least they used to be. And D3 baseball has gotten noticeably better in the past 2 years as talent has been pushed down and more players have transferred to D3 schools.
@adbono posted:There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
You don't think Trinity could compete with most jucos not named MCC or San Jac?
@langra posted:
No I don’t. Trinity would not complete well with the D1 Texas JuCos. They would win some but overall they would be lacking in every aspect except GPA and maybe baseball IQ. I saw Trinity play in the super regional against UTD last year and was not impressed. Especially with what I saw on the mound. Texas JuCo players are much bigger, faster, and stronger. They are much more of a physical presence and the JuCo rosters have way better overall athletes top to bottom.
We had a baserunning competition at the end of one of our practices last week. The 5 fastest players each started at home plate and ran all the way around the bases for time. The SLOWEST of the 5 times was 13.5 seconds (hand timed). The fastest was 11.93 seconds. That is elite team speed. Team goal is to steal 150 bags this spring.
There is no comparing JuCo to D3 in Texas. The exception being the D3 JuCos in the Dallas Community College Conference. And even Eastfield College (which won that conference last year and was national D3 JuCo runner up) would be a handful for Trinity to deal with.
@adbono posted:No I don’t. Trinity would not complete well with the D1 Texas JuCos. They would win some but overall they would be lacking in every aspect except GPA and maybe baseball IQ. I saw Trinity play in the super regional against UTD last year and was not impressed. Especially with what I saw on the mound. Texas JuCo players are much bigger, faster, and stronger. They are much more of a physical presence and the JuCo rosters have way better overall athletes top to bottom.
I didn't think Trinity looked as good or as physical last year as I've seen them in the past. I assumed covid and transfers affected recruiting and roster. Feels like teams I've seen in the past would have been fine against all but a few JUCOs. Granted, right now MCC, San Jac, Weatherford, Blinn (after all the Grayson kids transferred) and surprisingly TJC have better rosters than they ever have. But idk that Northeast, Hill, Howard, Temple, Ranger, Vernon, Alvin etc are clearly better than most Trinity teams. Hard to tell with Trinity facing mostly poor competition in conference and this area. Just going solely on eyeball test.
I will cite one specific example which is representative of many that I have seen. A few years ago a kid from Southlake started out at Northeast Texas CC. Hardly a powerhouse program. Fair to say bottom third of D1 Texas JuCos. This kid was a platoon player there for 2 years. Hit about .260 - maybe less. Transferred to UTD and was a star. Was All Conference both years and hit close to .350.
That is a good indication of the amount of disparity in the pitching between D3 schools in Texas and D1 JuCos in Texas.
@adbono posted:I will cite one specific example which is representative of many that I have seen. A few years ago a kid from Southlake started out at Northeast Texas CC. Hardly a powerhouse program. Fair to say bottom third of D1 Texas JuCos. This kid was a platoon player there for 2 years. Hit about .260 - maybe less. Transferred to UTD and was a star. Was All Conference both years and hit close to .350.
That is a good indication of the amount of disparity in the pitching between D3 schools in Texas and D1 JuCos in Texas.
Sure--there's no comparison overall. I was just singling out Trinity as an exception. The rest of D3 in Texas isnt very good.
@langra posted:I didn't think Trinity looked as good or as physical last year as I've seen them in the past. I assumed covid and transfers affected recruiting and roster. Feels like teams I've seen in the past would have been fine against all but a few JUCOs. Granted, right now MCC, San Jac, Weatherford, Blinn (after all the Cisco kids transferred) and surprisingly TJC have better rosters than they ever have. But idk that Northeast, Hill, Howard, Temple, Ranger, Vernon, Alvin etc are clearly better than most Trinity teams. Hard to tell with Trinity facing mostly poor competition in conference and this area. Just going solely on eyeball test.
Don’t agree with you at all. Hill, Howard, Temple, Ranger, and Alvin are all better than Trinity. The players that advance from those schools go to very good D2 programs and/or D1 mid majors. The D3 schools recruit the bench players in NJCAA Region 5.
If you want to crown Trinity as the gold standard for D3 baseball in Texas I would not take issue with that.
Not exactly a high bar to be sure.
I think it seems that way because some of the best D1 programs in America are in Texas. Typically Texas A&M, Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, and DBU are nationally ranked. In D2 you have Angelo State & West Texas A&M usually among the best in the nation. So the bar in other divisions is really high. I do think East Texas Baptist and Texas Lutheran have gotten much better and I expect Southwestern to get better as well. The D3 bar just isn’t as high in Texas b/c there just aren’t near as many elite level programs compared to D1/D2. Just my 2 cents.
One more parting shot. The best D3 position player that I have seen is Brandon George. He played 3B at UTD in 2014, 2015, & 2016. Was All Conference all 3 years. Had career .370 BA and career OPS of 1.000 - and was also a plus defender. He spent his freshman year at San Jac. Where he wasn’t good enough to get on the field. Only had 7 at bats all year.
If you are a 2023 today (end of September) and you don't have an offer yet, is it too late?
Good morning @Francis7, I think it might be relative to what he can offer and his expectations. It was the end of October of my son's senior year before he did a tryout and verbally committed to Hill College (juco). I believe this was the approximate timing or others that went to Hill College from later classes too (seems like after my son, Hill took someone from my son's HS every year for a while). @adbono would know more about the juco route than anyone, if that's a consideration. I also believe that several kids that went the NAIA route were late commits too. Good luck to you and your son.
Thanks. My kid is a 22. Thinking about a friend with a 23. Poor kid is a baseball rat with zero offers. I really hope something comes up for him. Kid really works hard.
@francis. I think this is an interesting post. In our state, I see a huge number of really good (typically D1) players without commitments yet. I believe they all aimed too high in the COVID portal world; reality has set in; and they are all scrambling. Knowing a lot of these kids, they either don't have the grades for some D3s or are too proud to go that route. It must be chaos right now.
@Dadbelly2023 nailed it. There are some really good players in my area with nothing. Some are position players still thinking D1. There are also a few definitely targeting juco and they are right on schedule with those.
Again, I credit adbono for our 2023 committing to a D2 last winter. If you look back, he's been right about a lot of stuff: ranging from COVID to Portal. Of course, he is completely wrong about my 2025LHP not being a D1 pitcher but that's OK. lol. It's made 2025 work harder.
It's not too late for D3's. My son's team had four recruits visiting campus this weekend. The sophomores were assigned to entertain ("G rated ") the recruits on Friday evening: take them to dinner in the dining hall, take photos at a spot downtown, show them their dorm rooms and have them back on campus to their parents by 9:00pm. They attended the Saturday scrimmage.
This is a generalization, but here is the perspective of a typical JuCo regarding the class of ‘23 recruits. (Using a top 50 D1 Texas JuCo as an example) : Currently have 10 commits. Many other offers outstanding. Still need a SS & LHP. There are 24 scholarships to give at this school, so assuming 12 per year on average, the ‘23 class is almost down to walk-on offers. Lesser programs, and programs in colder regions of the country, may not be this far along.
One thing that many people don’t understand about college baseball recruiting is that there is a fiscal component to it at many schools. And this is true in JuCo, D3, D2, D1 & NAIA. At many schools the sports programs (including baseball) have minimum target numbers that are given to them by Athletic Directors in order to generate tuition revenue for the schools. That’s why walk-on offers are so dicey. You may be really wanted but the school is out of money. Or you may only be wanted because you are willing to pay full tuition. You best know which category you fall into when considering a walk-on offer. And this is exactly where most players/parents fail to read the tea leaves accurately.
And finally, I will reiterate something I said months back. A lot of D1/D2 schools don’t currently want to recruit HS seniors. They would rather have experienced players out of JuCo or the transfer portal. There are many reasons for this but some of the main ones are : players with college experience are more ready to make an immediate impact, JuCo & portal players have already had the attitude of entitlement knocked out them and they are hungry, and more of these players can be lured in with less financial commitment. Simply put, players with college experience are realistic and HS players are not. Last weekend I attended the Texas/New Mexico JuCo All Star Games at DBU. There were more than a dozen MLB scouts and over 100 4 year schools in attendance looking for players. The talent level was very impressive - especially the position players. And many of these players don’t have deals yet. Just saying, times are still tough for ‘23 HS recruits.
Are there some D1 programs that are insulated from this trend? Say Rice or Pepperdine or wiiliam mary where the need for academic fit reduces the juco and transfer portal mix?
@Dadbelly2023 posted:Are there some D1 programs that are insulated from this trend? Say Rice or Pepperdine or wiiliam mary where the need for academic fit reduces the juco and transfer portal mix?
I’m not sure if insulated would be the right word, but there are certainly schools (like the ones you mentioned - and most D3s) that are not as transfer player orientated. However, even some schools that have traditionally not taken transfers are starting to loosen their belt on that issue.
@adbono posted:And finally, I will reiterate something I said months back. A lot of D1/D2 schools don’t currently want to recruit HS seniors. They would rather have experienced players out of JuCo or the transfer portal. There are many reasons for this but some of the main ones are : players with college experience are more ready to make an immediate impact, JuCo & portal players have already had the attitude of entitlement knocked out them and they are hungry, and more of these players can be lured in with less financial commitment. Simply put, players with college experience are realistic and HS players are not.
The school my 2020 ended up at has 20 returning players, and 17 kids from JUCOs or the transfer portal. They were very senior heavy last year and lost 2 players to the draft, but it looks like they planned a very small recruiting class for 22s and 23s because of the current landscape.
@Dadbelly2023 posted:Are there some D1 programs that are insulated from this trend? Say Rice or Pepperdine or wiiliam mary where the need for academic fit reduces the juco and transfer portal mix?
Not sure about all, but saw on social media yesterday that Navy just took a a player via the transfer portal....
To add on to Adbono's last post. I've been to four of Arkansas's scrimmages this Fall. They had two top 100 players make it to campus. Both are fighting to get in the lineup and both have flashed at times and both have been very inconsistent at times. The rest? They all look to be fighting to make the roster and that's not counting the four who were dropped this Summer before they ever got to campus. The guys who have shined have been the D1 transfers and some of the JUCO recruits. The difference in a proven D1 transfer and a HS kid (and really most JUCO kids) is night and day. The portal is going to a be a major problem for HS and some JUCO players moving forward. I think it will push the timeline back for JUCO players which is going to cause a lot of stress. My guess is that committing in June and July for JUCO's to 4 years becomes the new norm.
@Dadbelly2023 posted:Are there some D1 programs that are insulated from this trend? Say Rice or Pepperdine or wiiliam mary where the need for academic fit reduces the juco and transfer portal mix?
Rice brought in four, W&M one, and Pepperdine one. I know some students that went to Pepperdine and they all had problems with their concurrent classes not transferring out of high school. That could majorly hinder programs that are strict about credits transferring.
….it’s all just completely relative. There are 300+ D3 programs, the bottom 20% of those will very happily add a solid baseball player to their roster at pretty much any point, provided they can get through admissions.
Actually getting on the field and playing versus being on the roster is an entirely different thing of course, even at some of the worst D3 programs.
I would go so far as to say if you are a relatively solid baseball player, with relatively decent grades and you cannot find a D3 program anywhere in the country to play for, you either:
a) didn’t really try very hard to get your name and what you can offer out there
or
b) you are somewhat clueless
or
c) you weren’t willing to go halfway across the country to the middle of nowhere to play Baseball.
@adbono posted:I’m not sure if insulated would be the right word, but there are certainly schools (like the ones you mentioned - and most D3s) that are not as transfer player orientated. However, even some schools that have traditionally not taken transfers are starting to loosen their belt on that issue.
A P5 coach who's recruiting my son told us last weekend that, "If you're not a player in the transfer portal you're getting passed by. Its here to stay and if a player will help us get to Omaha, we will take him."
@adbono posted:This is a generalization, but here is the perspective of a typical JuCo regarding the class of ‘23 recruits. (Using a top 50 D1 Texas JuCo as an example) : Currently have 10 commits. Many other offers outstanding. Still need a SS & LHP. There are 24 scholarships to give at this school, so assuming 12 per year on average, the ‘23 class is almost down to walk-on offers. Lesser programs, and programs in colder regions of the country, may not be this far along.
One thing that many people don’t understand about college baseball recruiting is that there is a fiscal component to it at many schools. And this is true in JuCo, D3, D2, D1 & NAIA. At many schools the sports programs (including baseball) have minimum target numbers that are given to them by Athletic Directors in order to generate tuition revenue for the schools. That’s why walk-on offers are so dicey. You may be really wanted but the school is out of money. Or you may only be wanted because you are willing to pay full tuition. You best know which category you fall into when considering a walk-on offer. And this is exactly where most players/parents fail to read the tea leaves accurately.
And finally, I will reiterate something I said months back. A lot of D1/D2 schools don’t currently want to recruit HS seniors. They would rather have experienced players out of JuCo or the transfer portal. There are many reasons for this but some of the main ones are : players with college experience are more ready to make an immediate impact, JuCo & portal players have already had the attitude of entitlement knocked out them and they are hungry, and more of these players can be lured in with less financial commitment. Simply put, players with college experience are realistic and HS players are not. Last weekend I attended the Texas/New Mexico JuCo All Star Games at DBU. There were more than a dozen MLB scouts and over 100 4 year schools in attendance looking for players. The talent level was very impressive - especially the position players. And many of these players don’t have deals yet. Just saying, times are still tough for ‘23 HS recruits.
spoke w/ a dad of a boy that played w/ my son for the last 3 summers. He committed early to a JUCO in OK. I asked how it was going and he said "he's probably going to redshirt or transfer, they have 6 catchers on campus and 5 of them are sophomores or redshirt freshman"..............and he answered my next question was "yes we asked, but he was one of the 1st to commit, and then all these other kids either walked on or transferred as only 2 were returners from last year".
Bottom line, GO WHERE YOU KNOW YOU WILL PLAY.
@russinfortworth posted:spoke w/ a dad of a boy that played w/ my son for the last 3 summers. He committed early to a JUCO in OK. I asked how it was going and he said "he's probably going to redshirt or transfer, they have 6 catchers on campus and 5 of them are sophomores or redshirt freshman"..............and he answered my next question was "yes we asked, but he was one of the 1st to commit, and then all these other kids either walked on or transferred as only 2 were returners from last year".
Bottom line, GO WHERE YOU KNOW YOU WILL PLAY.
I completely agree. Especially with your last sentence. However, I will add that I believe it’s harder now (than ever before) to get a good read on playing time probability until you are on campus and part of the program. Too many moving parts and situations can change overnight
2024 recently attended a P5 camp. They had a recruiting talk for parents. During Q&A a parent asked, "How many players do you take from the transfer portal?" The coach answered, "I would take 35 twenty-three year olds if I could, because I know we will be back in Omaha".
@adbono posted:This is a generalization, but here is the perspective of a typical JuCo regarding the class of ‘23 recruits. (Using a top 50 D1 Texas JuCo as an example) : Currently have 10 commits. Many other offers outstanding. Still need a SS & LHP. There are 24 scholarships to give at this school, so assuming 12 per year on average, the ‘23 class is almost down to walk-on offers. Lesser programs, and programs in colder regions of the country, may not be this far along.
The juco landscape by me is wildly different but when are kids committing to top 50 jucos and what type of players are they?
Are they the late bloomers, the not quite D1 guys, or the D1 walk-on guys? Would they be committing as juniors or seniors?
Up by me they are mostly tweeners who are "talking to D1s" but only have no money offers from D2s and D3s, or are fringe players who don't have the grades/scores to go to a D3 with semi competitive admissions. Nobody is ever really excited to commit to one.
The good players are drop downs who are coming home to play. Grades, playing time, and walk on cuts are the main culprits.
@PABaseball posted:The juco landscape by me is wildly different but when are kids committing to top 50 jucos and what type of players are they?
Are they the late bloomers, the not quite D1 guys, or the D1 walk-on guys? Would they be committing as juniors or seniors?
Up by me they are mostly tweeners who are "talking to D1s" but only have no money offers from D2s and D3s, or are fringe players who don't have the grades/scores to go to a D3 with semi competitive admissions. Nobody is ever really excited to commit to one.
The good players are drop downs who are coming home to play. Grades, playing time, and walk on cuts are the main culprits.
In JuCo hotbed areas (like Texas) players are committing to good JuCo programs the summer before their senior year typically. With later commits happening in the fall. And they are not fringe players. They are among the best HS players in the state. Many are capable of developing into solid D1 players.
@PABaseball posted:The juco landscape by me is wildly different but when are kids committing to top 50 jucos and what type of players are they?
Are they the late bloomers, the not quite D1 guys, or the D1 walk-on guys? Would they be committing as juniors or seniors?
Up by me they are mostly tweeners who are "talking to D1s" but only have no money offers from D2s and D3s, or are fringe players who don't have the grades/scores to go to a D3 with semi competitive admissions. Nobody is ever really excited to commit to one.
The good players are drop downs who are coming home to play. Grades, playing time, and walk on cuts are the main culprits.
Son's team was top 5 the last two years. The core HS recruits were guys who were very good HS players who were under recruited for some reason. For pitchers it was a lot of guys who threw around 86 but could really pitch. Guys who turned down lower D1 offers for the chance at better and it usually worked out. For hitters it was a lot of times size or lack of a position, but they could hit. They add strength and velocity and now you have guys throwing 93-94 who can pitch and guys who can mash up and down the lineup. Then we added a lot of D1 drop downs mostly from the SEC. Some were good and some couldn't play there either. Our best pitchers were our HS recruits, hitters were a little mixed between HS and D1 drop downs. The first year it was more HS kids, the 2nd year the D1 drop downs were the better hitters. He committed the Summer after his Jr year and he drug them along for probably 6 months. In hindsight he was committing to two years of baseball camp and he would have committed the day he was offered if he knew then what he knows now.
@Tres Elakes 24 posted:2024 recently attended a P5 camp. They had a recruiting talk for parents. During Q&A a parent asked, "How many players do you take from the transfer portal?" The coach answered, "I would take 35 twenty-three year olds if I could, because I know we will be back in Omaha".
And this offends most but if I was the coach I and most everyone else would do the same. I think you will still find the best getting playing time but trying to go above your head is not smart in today's world.
@PitchingFan posted:And this offends most but if I was the coach I and most everyone else would do the same. I think you will still find the best getting playing time but trying to go above your head is not smart in today's world.
Sure, but the coach also said "if I could" He can't, and if every P5 school tried to it's not a sustainable model.
I don't know. Every P5 could take 15 and still have guys left untransferred. There are 3 SEC schools who took 11, 3 others who took 10 and there are pages of guys in the portal that have not gone anywhere. I got tired of trying to count them but I'm guessing 300 plus who are left in the portal or have not reported in D1Baseball where they landed.
Last weekend in the St. Louis area 2024 was playing for the first time since July, and there were a number of colleges in attendance scouting players. I personally saw one D1 school, a couple of D2's, several D3's, 2 JUCO's, and no NAIA's at our games. This tournament was spread over several colleges, a minor league park, and two college wood bat parks, so it is probably safe to say that there were a number of schools out looking.
After our first game, coaches from a local D2 were talking to our HC about their interest in one of our 2023's.
Coaches from one of the JUCO's had their eye on the 2023 pitcher we faced in the second game. I've talked to the coaches before at games, and he asked me if I had ever seen this pitcher before. I hadn't, but another parent told them he had and said he was always a tough competitor. He pitched well and CubsSon took the loss.
After the game a D3 coach approached our son and they had a good conversation. It was a program 2024 had emailed with some video but had never heard back from. You never know...
My kid's HA D3 grabbed a transfer, a rare event I was told by son, in the rare moments he used more than 4 words in a conversation with me. The 2023s the kid played with or are friends with, few have D1 offers, several are pending offers or recently committed to D3.
@adbono posted:In JuCo hotbed areas (like Texas) players are committing to good JuCo programs the summer before their senior year typically. With later commits happening in the fall. And they are not fringe players. They are among the best HS players in the state. Many are capable of developing into solid D1 players.
Not doubting the quality - just wondering why they aren't going to D1 schools out of HS? Are the D1 offers not there or are they being told the juco route is the better route to go?
@PABaseball posted:Not doubting the quality - just wondering why they aren't going to D1 schools out of HS? Are the D1 offers not there or are they being told the juco route is the better route to go?
Lots of D1 programs in the sunshine states are prioritizing transfer portal and JuCo recruits over HS players. In this region of the country more are doing that than aren’t. So there aren’t as many HS kids being recruited. The smart (realistic) HS players know this and are not reluctant to commit to good JuCo programs before their senior year in HS.
@PABaseball posted:Not doubting the quality - just wondering why they aren't going to D1 schools out of HS? Are the D1 offers not there or are they being told the juco route is the better route to go?
There are A LOT of kids committing to D1's who will never see the field at those schools. If you aren't a stud (or targeting a school for academics), Juco is the way to go for most kids. Much better chances of getting playing time your first 2 years.
@adbono posted:In JuCo hotbed areas (like Texas) players are committing to good JuCo programs the summer before their senior year typically. With later commits happening in the fall. And they are not fringe players. They are among the best HS players in the state. Many are capable of developing into solid D1 players.
This…
if baseball is the dream, this is the quickest, most flexible and cheapest way to get that figured out.
if you can help a D1 win, they’ll find you… if you project to be a pro ball player, they’ll find you…
As frequently discussed on this board, the Sunshine States have exceptional Juco programs that prepare the player for a 4 year program. It's almost like being recruited from the portal, the players have game experience and 2 years of college. Very desirable. And if it's a lottery state like Florida, tuition is very affordable.
Please note the California JC web site. A "great" option for the HS student athlete.
SRJC has five former players now on MLB rosters. The school is also ranked Academic in the Top 10% in the Nation. The "key" is transferable credits.
https://www.cccbca.com/landing/index.
Bob
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As has been stated, d3's in the Northeast truly do recruit into the spring of recruits senior year. That goes for the best programs as well. They have no roster limits and often have jv teams, so they can take a flyer on a kid who can get accepted to the school. But the bulk is finished by December after that it's more the taking a flyer route, more reminiscent of an invited walk-on.
That being said, I still see kids who over think their talents, all you have to do is find their twitter posts from a few years back, all saying they are going D3, because they will play "right away" and you see their stats and they haven't or have barely seen the field the past two years. Based on their posts, I guess they thought they were D1 but went where they would play, or kids still have a stigma about D3 and seem to need to give a reason they're "only going" D3. D3 is a numbers game and if you don't work your tail off to see the field, they'll just pull someone else off their jv roster who shows better.
I have seen some d1 transfers to several of my son's D3 conference schools. Not tons, but it is happening as kids move closer to home and want to see the field.
Kid's HS teammate was named back up SS for his P5 team. A check on the win column for 2022.
I know of one player that was offered this past week, by a DI team that was in the Regionals. If a player has the talent, there are still opportunities.
@TPM posted:I am curious. Did they have their end of fall practice meetings with players?
I asked my kid and he told me the coach did meet with his former HS teammate and provided feedback. It looks like he will get some time in spring if the continues to develop.
I think team fall exits were early this year because of the portal window. It starts Dec.1.
My 2020's were at least 2 weeks ago. My 2022's haven't happened yet. But neither program are known for making fall cuts.
Ours happened 2 weeks ago. Cuts, gray shirts, redshirts.
Cuts happen in D1 when a coach brings in more than the allowed 35 man roster (or a few more if they have covid seniors). I don't understand why a coach would redshirt anyone before season unless they were hurt. You never know what will happen.
This might be a good question to ask during recruiting.
JMO
I'm with you TPM. Under the old system, you could only redshirt so many during a season or maybe none unless they got hurt but under the new system I would wait until it was all over and done. One bad weekend could take you out.
I've known players to be told they would "redshirt" who didn't have athletic scholarships. In other words, they were competing to be one of the 8 non-athletic-money players. Maybe that's a "grayshirt"? I think I remember hearing that some were told this before they arrived on campus, this was presented as, they would spend the first year working out and getting stronger. Did not turn out well. So even if you asked a coach during recruiting, it might be presented to you as a good thing.
The sad part of a pre-season redshirt is they don't get to do anything with the team. They have to do it all alone or with the other redshirts which is not good. You have all the resources physically but very little to none of the assitance. Over the years I have watched them and they look so sad out there. A few guys trying to pitch to each other and hit ground balls or fly balls to each other. They can't workout with the team. If you are not driven, it is a very lonely place to be.
PF brings up a good point, if you are not listed on the team roster, you are not part of the team. There are many players that don't get athletic money, but do get academic money but are on the roster.
In lottery states, this is common especially when the player is from instate and COA is relatively reasonable. But they are still part of the 35 man team.
Why would a coach tell someone in advance of coming they will redshirt?
So this, IMO is still a good question to ask. Plus, ask, will I be part of the 35 man roster?
FWIW, redshirt is essentially a term used to designate how many years the players has available to play.
I think this happens because people just have no clue how it works.
Well, you used to know, to some extent. All you had to look at was how many were in your recruiting class. Now, do you need to know how many were in the recruiting class, and guess how many transfers are coming over.
Last year our school had a recruiting class of 14. Five are left. Our school has taken lots of transfers.
We had a P5 school that told youngest son they would redshirt him and all except 1 of their freshmen. We put them at the end of the list but did not tell them just in case. I guess it would not have hurt since it was 2020 so everybody got redshirted. I have meant to go back and look to see what they did with that class. Knowing them, they redshirted both that class and the next.
Schools (especially D1s) over recruit for a number of reasons. Primarily because they can get away with it b/c of the over supply of good players. But also b/c they miss on half of their recruits. So they play the odds. If they need 6 they bring in 12 not knowing which of the 6 they really want to keep. And tuition revenue factors into it also. The primary reason to bring in 50 players in the fall, when the roster limit is 35, is that you have 15 extra players paying full tuition to the school. Even if it’s just for the fall semester that’s at least 150k in tuition revenue. If they can convince those fringe players to redshirt or grayshirt the revenue stream continues. Apply that principle to every sport across the board and it adds up in a hurry. University administrators have figured this out. You can ask about this all you like during recruiting but you won’t get an honest answer. I promise you that. You have to dig to get the truth about how any school manages their roster.
We have had this discussion before, over and over. While I agree there are some programs that do this, it's not across the board. If a program can't recruit well, we'll they have a problem so get rid of the guys who do that job, especially in P5 programs.
Try bringing in 50 in the fall with half the coaches out on the road recruiting and trying to end up with a decent winning program.
Or try fully funding your programs and it won't happen.
My opinions are based on the reality of what is actually happening. Not the way things should be. I have personally spoken to enough D1 coaches about this subject to know exactly what they are doing. And why.
@adbono posted:My opinions are based on the reality of what is actually happening. Not the way things should be. I have personally spoken to enough D1 coaches about this subject to know exactly what they are doing. And why.
You speak to your region, NOT how it is everywhere. I don't know a single DI school in my area of the midwest that makes that large of cuts, if any. Yes, most are mid-majors but some are P5 schools. This definitely seems to be mostly a Texas or mostly a southern thing.
@baseballmom01 posted:You speak to your region, NOT how it is everywhere. I don't know a single DI school in my area of the midwest that makes that large of cuts, if any. Yes, most are mid-majors but some are P5 schools. This definitely seems to be mostly a Texas or mostly a southern thing.
It’s a competitive thing. Not a regional thing. The more competitive the program the more this goes on. There are more competitive programs in Texas and in the south than in the Midwest or the Northeast. So if it’s more prevalent here that’s the reason.
@adbono posted:It’s a competitive thing. Not a regional thing. The more competitive the program the more this goes on. There are more competitive programs in Texas and in the south than in the Midwest or the Northeast. So if it’s more prevalent here that’s the reason.
So if the south is more competitive, wouldn't that still be considered a regional thing??
@baseballmom01 posted:You speak to your region, NOT how it is everywhere. I don't know a single DI school in my area of the midwest that makes that large of cuts, if any. Yes, most are mid-majors but some are P5 schools. This definitely seems to be mostly a Texas or mostly a southern thing.
baseballmom01,
I agree, it definetly is a regional thing.
@baseballmom01 posted:So if the south is more competitive, wouldn't that still be considered a regional thing??
I would think that the southern half of the United States is too much territory to be considered a region. It’s kinda beside the point anyway. The conversation is really about what goes on at the majority of the most competitive programs. No matter where they are located. Just so happens that more are in the southern half of the US than not. Maybe it has something to do with warmer weather.
@adbono posted:I would think that the southern half of the United States is too much territory to be considered a region. It’s kinda beside the point anyway. The conversation is really about what goes on at the majority of the most competitive programs. No matter where they are located. Just so happens that more are in the southern half of the US than not. Maybe it has something to do with warmer weather.
No, the original conversation was referring to all DI programs and that is what you originally said as well. So now you are saying it is only competitive programs that over recruit? Yes, we are all fully aware of the few programs that do that. That is nothing new to anyone. I was letting you know that that is not an across the board statement as that is not how most DI programs are run. I will let all those midwest baseball players know that they aren't competitive since it's not "warmer weather" up here.
@baseballmom01 posted:No, the original conversation was referring to all DI programs and that is what you originally said as well. So now you are saying it is only competitive programs that over recruit? Yes, we are all fully aware of the few programs that do that. That is nothing new to anyone. I was letting you know that that is not an across the board statement as that is not how most DI programs are run. I will let all those midwest baseball players know that they aren't competitive since it's not "warmer weather" up here.
There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
@adbono posted:There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
No arguing on my end. Just trying to provide the most accurate information to any parents coming here for help.
@adbono posted:There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
It’s not all but it’s also not “a few”.
@baseballhs posted:It’s not all but it’s also not “a few”.
True. It’s the majority of the top 100 D1 programs.
@TPM posted:Can we find out who is in the majority of those top 100 D1 programs?
I am just curious as to who and where.
You can figure it out yourself. Just exclude Gainesville, Florida and look at every other SEC school. Then look at all ACC schools besides Clemson. Then look at the Big12 schools. And the top half of the Big 10 and Pac12. That will get most of them. Any schools that haven’t posted 2023 rosters are likely candidates.
I disagree. I know the top SEC teams don't do it. I've been tracking it pre and post Covid. There are a few but not the top teams. Now your state is a different thing. There are more in Texas, I believe, than any other state that cut players. I don't know of top teams that do it to a high degree.
@adbono posted:You can figure it out yourself. Just exclude Gainesville, Florida and look at every other SEC school. Then look at all ACC schools besides Clemson. Then look at the Big12 schools. And the top half of the Big 10 and Pac12. That will get most of them. Any schools that haven’t posted 2023 rosters are likely candidates.
Not sure the last time you looked but most P5 programs have not listed their 2023 rosters but that does not mean they haven't already set their 35 man roster (or up to 40 due to covid seniors).
I want to know, as I am sure others do, who brings in 50 in the fall.
@PitchingFan posted:I disagree. I know the top SEC teams don't do it. I've been tracking it pre and post Covid. There are a few but not the top teams. Now your state is a different thing. There are more in Texas, I believe, than any other state that cut players. I don't know of top teams that do it to a high degree.
Um....Arkansas?
How many did Arkansas cut? I know everyone will cut a few but when we were being recruited by them they did not overrecruit. I don't like Arkansas but they did not over recruit. Their biggest problem was they allowed a lot of guys to walk on and had preferred walk ons that many times they redshirted and they had a higher than normal redshirt list but not over recruiting.
@PitchingFan posted:How many did Arkansas cut? I know everyone will cut a few but when we were being recruited by them they did not overrecruit. I don't like Arkansas but they did not over recruit. Their biggest problem was they allowed a lot of guys to walk on and had preferred walk ons that many times they redshirted and they had a higher than normal redshirt list but not over recruiting.
Aren't they also known to recruit giant underdeveloped pitchers, redshirt them in the hope of developing them? I know of at least one, but was pre-covid. Kid was about 6'7" skinny as a rail.
@Master P posted:Um....Arkansas?
Yes, maybe the worst offender. Also Texas Tech, TCU, Oklahoma State, Houston, Wichita State, Grand Canyon…. just to name a few off the top of my head. Just look at the size of the typical recruiting class. Add JuCo transfers and portal transfers. If that number is more than 15 they are over recruiting. Do the math. Amazing to me the people that are affiliated with schools that aren’t bringing in big numbers in the fall don’t believe that it’s going on anywhere. It’s hard to prove b/c the worst offenders don’t publish a fall roster for this very reason. They don’t want the public to know how many they bring in every fall. But if you know you know. To me, finding schools that don’t over recruit should be one of the top priorities during the recruiting process.
Arkansas is the poster child for over recruiting in college baseball. And they have been for many years. They bring in close to 50 every fall. The walk ons at Arkansas are recruited players. Some are HS players and some are JuCo. They may not be on scholarship but they were recruited. When they spend a fall semester at Arkansas and then are asked to leave that is being cut.
@baseballhs posted:Well, you used to know, to some extent. All you had to look at was how many were in your recruiting class. Now, do you need to know how many were in the recruiting class, and guess how many transfers are coming over.
Last year our school had a recruiting class of 14. Five are left. Our school has taken lots of transfers.
I think it depends on the programs philosophy. There are programs that recruit on a 3 year cycle because of the draft. There are many, IMO, who aren't good at roster management. I think it's special skill not just reserved for P5 coaches.
The majority of the top programs do not want players staying forever so recruiting is a large part of the craziness.
So if a player looks like they may not get drafted in 3 years as previously thought, they may part ways or the player leaves thinking the grass is greener and that's ok.
A program will never have all of their committs graduate. But a good program will know how to bring their committs along fairly and slowly. Of course the more talented the prospect the less time that he will sit on the bench. It's not all about, IMO, bringing in more because you only need half. It's about bringing in the RIGHT guys for your program. You don't have to be a top P5 HC to achieve that goal.
It's also about the committs making the right choices as well.
JMO
Adbono
1992 SRJC finished #3 in the State of California Three players went to U Oklahoma, one player to Texas, one player Hawaii ( #7 ) ranked in America. They played every game the 1st year and 2nd year.
The entry to College of successful JC players has not lessen. This should be a major factor in a young player decision. Study, ask questions and in the Summer play against 20 year old players. Learn the real game!
“competition is a teaching and learning opportunity “
Bob
@nycdad posted:Aren't they also known to recruit giant underdeveloped pitchers, redshirt them in the hope of developing them? I know of at least one, but was pre-covid. Kid was about 6'7" skinny as a rail.
If a program brings in a young stud recruit, developing them should be about giving them opportunities to learn, not redshirting on the bench.
Bringing in a lot of future studs to sit it out is like hoarding, you don't want your biggest rival to have them.