If you are a 2023 without one actual offer now, is it too late for you now...especially considering the overall situation with rosters due to the extra COVID-19 years?
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d3s are still recruiting, so no.
There is no blanket answer to that question. The only answer that applies across the board is “it depends.” Situations vary from region to region- and also vary depending on level of play.
In the Sun Belt the competitive D1s have filled their class of ‘23. A random need will appear a few places due to something unexpected but for the most part they are done. Same for competitive D2s. D3s and JuCos are well along the way but not finished yet.
So at this point in time, in my area, if you don’t have an offer it’s time to recalibrate your sights. Either the market is telling you that your expectations were unrealistic or your ability hasn’t been recognized and you have fallen thru the cracks. Either way it’s time to implement plan B in a hurry. There are still tryout camps on JuCo campuses in September. It’s not hard to set up individual tryouts if you have an advocate with JuCo coach connections. That would be a good avenue to pursue in this part of the country.
No matter what your initial strategy hasn’t worked very well if you have no offers yet - assuming that there isn’t an injury involved. Time to shift gears if baseball is important to you.
For D1 position player, maybe. Lots of coaches from all levels are still looking at pitchers. For high academic D3’s I believe if you don’t have a formal offer for a visit then you should change your sites.
Many non-D1’s are holding prospect camps over the next few weeks where I believe they will wrap up their classes.
A major injury just before expecting offers changed my son’s timeline. He received D1 offers the summer after graduation. The one he took was for the following year. He tried to walk on the first year. He lost out to a late bloomer pitcher now in the majors. His offer included athletic money the following year.
When do walk ons typically commit or make their decision? I know one 2023 that committed to an ACC last summer
@TerribleBPthrower posted:When do walk ons typically commit or make their decision? I know one 2023 that committed to an ACC last summer
D1 walk ons usually commit anywhere from 3 to 6 months before they are cut from the team.
This is peak D3 recruiting season. If you do not have an offer by October it would be time to consider which school is the best fit without baseball
There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
D3 recruiting in New England is really busy right now and with so many D3 schools offering top educations as well, there are still a lot of good opportunities to be landed. I think the ED deadlines of 10-15-11/1 is when it really starts to end but even then there is time at many D3s into winter.
Massachusetts is the 15th largest state with a 7M population. There are 36 D3 baseball programs. 29 of them are in the Greater Boston area. This does not include D3 JuCo programs.
Tons of JUCO’s and D3’s to still be recruited by.
(Checks calendar). Isn’t it just late August? My 2021 committed to a D3 in late Sept/Early Oct of 2020
@adbono posted:There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
Huge differences. D3/D2 and NAIA schools are way more prominent than DI schools in the upper midwest as well. There's also only a handful of highly competitive JUCO's within the upper midwest. There are actually only 4 DI schools within 250 miles of where I live (2 are P5 schools). For kids that want to play DI closer to home, the competition is extremely fierce! My son is the first DI baseball player to ever come out of our high school!!! The few that do go on to play college ball almost all play D3 and don't commit until late fall/early winter of their senior year.
@adbono posted:There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
Up here you can't drive 15-20 minutes in any direction without running into a D3. Many of them are HA schools, which make playing D3 baseball more appealing than going to a juco for most. There is also snobbish attitude towards jucos up here which is undeserved. If you took a poll, odds are 80% of parents would rather send their kids to a below average, expensive, private college than juco for two years. It doesn't make sense. That being said...
The kids committing to jucos up here are either
A. D1 dropdowns
B. D1 recruits who never made it to campus or were injured during recruitment
C. Decent players who didn't have NCAA grades
@adbono posted:There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
Very true. Another difference is costs. I think most or all of the TX D3s are private. We have an abundance of good public D3 baseball options in the northeast (especially PA and NY). That factors into the juco equation for some kids.
@MidAtlanticDad posted:Very true. Another difference is costs. I think most or all of the TX D3s are private. We have an abundance of good public D3 baseball options in the northeast (especially PA and NY). That factors into the juco equation for some kids.
Good point. To the best of my knowledge, the University of Texas-Dallas is the only public D3 in Texas that has a baseball program. And it isn’t cheap. COA at UTD is on par with Texas A&M and UT. Sticker price at private Texas D3 schools is higher but they “somehow” usually find enough financial aid to make out of pocket costs comparable. D3 schools in Texas by and large don’t get much respect - on both the athletic and educational front. Which is unfair because Austin College, Trinity, U of Dallas, Southwestern, and UTD (just to name a few) are fine academic institutions. At least they used to be. And D3 baseball has gotten noticeably better in the past 2 years as talent has been pushed down and more players have transferred to D3 schools.
@adbono posted:Good point. To the best of my knowledge, the University of Texas-Dallas is the only public D3 in Texas that has a baseball program. And it isn’t cheap. COA at UTD is on par with Texas A&M and UT. Sticker price at private Texas D3 schools is higher but they “somehow” usually find enough financial aid to make out of pocket costs comparable. D3 schools in Texas by and large don’t get much respect - on both the athletic and educational front. Which is unfair because Austin College, Trinity, U of Dallas, Southwestern, and UTD (just to name a few) are fine academic institutions. At least they used to be. And D3 baseball has gotten noticeably better in the past 2 years as talent has been pushed down and more players have transferred to D3 schools.
@adbono posted:There are so many regional differences. In Texas there are only 15 D3 schools that play baseball. By comparison, there are 28 NJCAA D1 schools that play baseball and all but a couple would wipe the field with the D3 programs if the played each other. They would hardly even be competitive games. I get the sense that it’s not that way in the Northeast. The uncommitted ‘23s around here are scrambling to find JuCo deals. Not D3 deals. Although more should be looking D3 than are.
You don't think Trinity could compete with most jucos not named MCC or San Jac?
@langra posted:
No I don’t. Trinity would not complete well with the D1 Texas JuCos. They would win some but overall they would be lacking in every aspect except GPA and maybe baseball IQ. I saw Trinity play in the super regional against UTD last year and was not impressed. Especially with what I saw on the mound. Texas JuCo players are much bigger, faster, and stronger. They are much more of a physical presence and the JuCo rosters have way better overall athletes top to bottom.
We had a baserunning competition at the end of one of our practices last week. The 5 fastest players each started at home plate and ran all the way around the bases for time. The SLOWEST of the 5 times was 13.5 seconds (hand timed). The fastest was 11.93 seconds. That is elite team speed. Team goal is to steal 150 bags this spring.
There is no comparing JuCo to D3 in Texas. The exception being the D3 JuCos in the Dallas Community College Conference. And even Eastfield College (which won that conference last year and was national D3 JuCo runner up) would be a handful for Trinity to deal with.
@adbono posted:No I don’t. Trinity would not complete well with the D1 Texas JuCos. They would win some but overall they would be lacking in every aspect except GPA and maybe baseball IQ. I saw Trinity play in the super regional against UTD last year and was not impressed. Especially with what I saw on the mound. Texas JuCo players are much bigger, faster, and stronger. They are much more of a physical presence and the JuCo rosters have way better overall athletes top to bottom.
I didn't think Trinity looked as good or as physical last year as I've seen them in the past. I assumed covid and transfers affected recruiting and roster. Feels like teams I've seen in the past would have been fine against all but a few JUCOs. Granted, right now MCC, San Jac, Weatherford, Blinn (after all the Grayson kids transferred) and surprisingly TJC have better rosters than they ever have. But idk that Northeast, Hill, Howard, Temple, Ranger, Vernon, Alvin etc are clearly better than most Trinity teams. Hard to tell with Trinity facing mostly poor competition in conference and this area. Just going solely on eyeball test.
I will cite one specific example which is representative of many that I have seen. A few years ago a kid from Southlake started out at Northeast Texas CC. Hardly a powerhouse program. Fair to say bottom third of D1 Texas JuCos. This kid was a platoon player there for 2 years. Hit about .260 - maybe less. Transferred to UTD and was a star. Was All Conference both years and hit close to .350.
That is a good indication of the amount of disparity in the pitching between D3 schools in Texas and D1 JuCos in Texas.
@adbono posted:I will cite one specific example which is representative of many that I have seen. A few years ago a kid from Southlake started out at Northeast Texas CC. Hardly a powerhouse program. Fair to say bottom third of D1 Texas JuCos. This kid was a platoon player there for 2 years. Hit about .260 - maybe less. Transferred to UTD and was a star. Was All Conference both years and hit close to .350.
That is a good indication of the amount of disparity in the pitching between D3 schools in Texas and D1 JuCos in Texas.
Sure--there's no comparison overall. I was just singling out Trinity as an exception. The rest of D3 in Texas isnt very good.
@langra posted:I didn't think Trinity looked as good or as physical last year as I've seen them in the past. I assumed covid and transfers affected recruiting and roster. Feels like teams I've seen in the past would have been fine against all but a few JUCOs. Granted, right now MCC, San Jac, Weatherford, Blinn (after all the Cisco kids transferred) and surprisingly TJC have better rosters than they ever have. But idk that Northeast, Hill, Howard, Temple, Ranger, Vernon, Alvin etc are clearly better than most Trinity teams. Hard to tell with Trinity facing mostly poor competition in conference and this area. Just going solely on eyeball test.
Don’t agree with you at all. Hill, Howard, Temple, Ranger, and Alvin are all better than Trinity. The players that advance from those schools go to very good D2 programs and/or D1 mid majors. The D3 schools recruit the bench players in NJCAA Region 5.
If you want to crown Trinity as the gold standard for D3 baseball in Texas I would not take issue with that.
Not exactly a high bar to be sure.
I think it seems that way because some of the best D1 programs in America are in Texas. Typically Texas A&M, Texas, Texas Tech, TCU, and DBU are nationally ranked. In D2 you have Angelo State & West Texas A&M usually among the best in the nation. So the bar in other divisions is really high. I do think East Texas Baptist and Texas Lutheran have gotten much better and I expect Southwestern to get better as well. The D3 bar just isn’t as high in Texas b/c there just aren’t near as many elite level programs compared to D1/D2. Just my 2 cents.
One more parting shot. The best D3 position player that I have seen is Brandon George. He played 3B at UTD in 2014, 2015, & 2016. Was All Conference all 3 years. Had career .370 BA and career OPS of 1.000 - and was also a plus defender. He spent his freshman year at San Jac. Where he wasn’t good enough to get on the field. Only had 7 at bats all year.
If you are a 2023 today (end of September) and you don't have an offer yet, is it too late?
Good morning @Francis7, I think it might be relative to what he can offer and his expectations. It was the end of October of my son's senior year before he did a tryout and verbally committed to Hill College (juco). I believe this was the approximate timing or others that went to Hill College from later classes too (seems like after my son, Hill took someone from my son's HS every year for a while). @adbono would know more about the juco route than anyone, if that's a consideration. I also believe that several kids that went the NAIA route were late commits too. Good luck to you and your son.
Thanks. My kid is a 22. Thinking about a friend with a 23. Poor kid is a baseball rat with zero offers. I really hope something comes up for him. Kid really works hard.
@francis. I think this is an interesting post. In our state, I see a huge number of really good (typically D1) players without commitments yet. I believe they all aimed too high in the COVID portal world; reality has set in; and they are all scrambling. Knowing a lot of these kids, they either don't have the grades for some D3s or are too proud to go that route. It must be chaos right now.
@Dadbelly2023 nailed it. There are some really good players in my area with nothing. Some are position players still thinking D1. There are also a few definitely targeting juco and they are right on schedule with those.
Again, I credit adbono for our 2023 committing to a D2 last winter. If you look back, he's been right about a lot of stuff: ranging from COVID to Portal. Of course, he is completely wrong about my 2025LHP not being a D1 pitcher but that's OK. lol. It's made 2025 work harder.
It's not too late for D3's. My son's team had four recruits visiting campus this weekend. The sophomores were assigned to entertain ("G rated ") the recruits on Friday evening: take them to dinner in the dining hall, take photos at a spot downtown, show them their dorm rooms and have them back on campus to their parents by 9:00pm. They attended the Saturday scrimmage.
This is a generalization, but here is the perspective of a typical JuCo regarding the class of ‘23 recruits. (Using a top 50 D1 Texas JuCo as an example) : Currently have 10 commits. Many other offers outstanding. Still need a SS & LHP. There are 24 scholarships to give at this school, so assuming 12 per year on average, the ‘23 class is almost down to walk-on offers. Lesser programs, and programs in colder regions of the country, may not be this far along.
One thing that many people don’t understand about college baseball recruiting is that there is a fiscal component to it at many schools. And this is true in JuCo, D3, D2, D1 & NAIA. At many schools the sports programs (including baseball) have minimum target numbers that are given to them by Athletic Directors in order to generate tuition revenue for the schools. That’s why walk-on offers are so dicey. You may be really wanted but the school is out of money. Or you may only be wanted because you are willing to pay full tuition. You best know which category you fall into when considering a walk-on offer. And this is exactly where most players/parents fail to read the tea leaves accurately.
And finally, I will reiterate something I said months back. A lot of D1/D2 schools don’t currently want to recruit HS seniors. They would rather have experienced players out of JuCo or the transfer portal. There are many reasons for this but some of the main ones are : players with college experience are more ready to make an immediate impact, JuCo & portal players have already had the attitude of entitlement knocked out them and they are hungry, and more of these players can be lured in with less financial commitment. Simply put, players with college experience are realistic and HS players are not. Last weekend I attended the Texas/New Mexico JuCo All Star Games at DBU. There were more than a dozen MLB scouts and over 100 4 year schools in attendance looking for players. The talent level was very impressive - especially the position players. And many of these players don’t have deals yet. Just saying, times are still tough for ‘23 HS recruits.
Are there some D1 programs that are insulated from this trend? Say Rice or Pepperdine or wiiliam mary where the need for academic fit reduces the juco and transfer portal mix?
@Dadbelly2023 posted:Are there some D1 programs that are insulated from this trend? Say Rice or Pepperdine or wiiliam mary where the need for academic fit reduces the juco and transfer portal mix?
I’m not sure if insulated would be the right word, but there are certainly schools (like the ones you mentioned - and most D3s) that are not as transfer player orientated. However, even some schools that have traditionally not taken transfers are starting to loosen their belt on that issue.
@adbono posted:And finally, I will reiterate something I said months back. A lot of D1/D2 schools don’t currently want to recruit HS seniors. They would rather have experienced players out of JuCo or the transfer portal. There are many reasons for this but some of the main ones are : players with college experience are more ready to make an immediate impact, JuCo & portal players have already had the attitude of entitlement knocked out them and they are hungry, and more of these players can be lured in with less financial commitment. Simply put, players with college experience are realistic and HS players are not.
The school my 2020 ended up at has 20 returning players, and 17 kids from JUCOs or the transfer portal. They were very senior heavy last year and lost 2 players to the draft, but it looks like they planned a very small recruiting class for 22s and 23s because of the current landscape.
@Dadbelly2023 posted:Are there some D1 programs that are insulated from this trend? Say Rice or Pepperdine or wiiliam mary where the need for academic fit reduces the juco and transfer portal mix?
Not sure about all, but saw on social media yesterday that Navy just took a a player via the transfer portal....
To add on to Adbono's last post. I've been to four of Arkansas's scrimmages this Fall. They had two top 100 players make it to campus. Both are fighting to get in the lineup and both have flashed at times and both have been very inconsistent at times. The rest? They all look to be fighting to make the roster and that's not counting the four who were dropped this Summer before they ever got to campus. The guys who have shined have been the D1 transfers and some of the JUCO recruits. The difference in a proven D1 transfer and a HS kid (and really most JUCO kids) is night and day. The portal is going to a be a major problem for HS and some JUCO players moving forward. I think it will push the timeline back for JUCO players which is going to cause a lot of stress. My guess is that committing in June and July for JUCO's to 4 years becomes the new norm.
@Dadbelly2023 posted:Are there some D1 programs that are insulated from this trend? Say Rice or Pepperdine or wiiliam mary where the need for academic fit reduces the juco and transfer portal mix?
Rice brought in four, W&M one, and Pepperdine one. I know some students that went to Pepperdine and they all had problems with their concurrent classes not transferring out of high school. That could majorly hinder programs that are strict about credits transferring.
….it’s all just completely relative. There are 300+ D3 programs, the bottom 20% of those will very happily add a solid baseball player to their roster at pretty much any point, provided they can get through admissions.
Actually getting on the field and playing versus being on the roster is an entirely different thing of course, even at some of the worst D3 programs.
I would go so far as to say if you are a relatively solid baseball player, with relatively decent grades and you cannot find a D3 program anywhere in the country to play for, you either:
a) didn’t really try very hard to get your name and what you can offer out there
or
b) you are somewhat clueless
or
c) you weren’t willing to go halfway across the country to the middle of nowhere to play Baseball.
@adbono posted:I’m not sure if insulated would be the right word, but there are certainly schools (like the ones you mentioned - and most D3s) that are not as transfer player orientated. However, even some schools that have traditionally not taken transfers are starting to loosen their belt on that issue.
A P5 coach who's recruiting my son told us last weekend that, "If you're not a player in the transfer portal you're getting passed by. Its here to stay and if a player will help us get to Omaha, we will take him."
@adbono posted:This is a generalization, but here is the perspective of a typical JuCo regarding the class of ‘23 recruits. (Using a top 50 D1 Texas JuCo as an example) : Currently have 10 commits. Many other offers outstanding. Still need a SS & LHP. There are 24 scholarships to give at this school, so assuming 12 per year on average, the ‘23 class is almost down to walk-on offers. Lesser programs, and programs in colder regions of the country, may not be this far along.
One thing that many people don’t understand about college baseball recruiting is that there is a fiscal component to it at many schools. And this is true in JuCo, D3, D2, D1 & NAIA. At many schools the sports programs (including baseball) have minimum target numbers that are given to them by Athletic Directors in order to generate tuition revenue for the schools. That’s why walk-on offers are so dicey. You may be really wanted but the school is out of money. Or you may only be wanted because you are willing to pay full tuition. You best know which category you fall into when considering a walk-on offer. And this is exactly where most players/parents fail to read the tea leaves accurately.
And finally, I will reiterate something I said months back. A lot of D1/D2 schools don’t currently want to recruit HS seniors. They would rather have experienced players out of JuCo or the transfer portal. There are many reasons for this but some of the main ones are : players with college experience are more ready to make an immediate impact, JuCo & portal players have already had the attitude of entitlement knocked out them and they are hungry, and more of these players can be lured in with less financial commitment. Simply put, players with college experience are realistic and HS players are not. Last weekend I attended the Texas/New Mexico JuCo All Star Games at DBU. There were more than a dozen MLB scouts and over 100 4 year schools in attendance looking for players. The talent level was very impressive - especially the position players. And many of these players don’t have deals yet. Just saying, times are still tough for ‘23 HS recruits.
spoke w/ a dad of a boy that played w/ my son for the last 3 summers. He committed early to a JUCO in OK. I asked how it was going and he said "he's probably going to redshirt or transfer, they have 6 catchers on campus and 5 of them are sophomores or redshirt freshman"..............and he answered my next question was "yes we asked, but he was one of the 1st to commit, and then all these other kids either walked on or transferred as only 2 were returners from last year".
Bottom line, GO WHERE YOU KNOW YOU WILL PLAY.
@russinfortworth posted:spoke w/ a dad of a boy that played w/ my son for the last 3 summers. He committed early to a JUCO in OK. I asked how it was going and he said "he's probably going to redshirt or transfer, they have 6 catchers on campus and 5 of them are sophomores or redshirt freshman"..............and he answered my next question was "yes we asked, but he was one of the 1st to commit, and then all these other kids either walked on or transferred as only 2 were returners from last year".
Bottom line, GO WHERE YOU KNOW YOU WILL PLAY.
I completely agree. Especially with your last sentence. However, I will add that I believe it’s harder now (than ever before) to get a good read on playing time probability until you are on campus and part of the program. Too many moving parts and situations can change overnight
2024 recently attended a P5 camp. They had a recruiting talk for parents. During Q&A a parent asked, "How many players do you take from the transfer portal?" The coach answered, "I would take 35 twenty-three year olds if I could, because I know we will be back in Omaha".
@adbono posted:This is a generalization, but here is the perspective of a typical JuCo regarding the class of ‘23 recruits. (Using a top 50 D1 Texas JuCo as an example) : Currently have 10 commits. Many other offers outstanding. Still need a SS & LHP. There are 24 scholarships to give at this school, so assuming 12 per year on average, the ‘23 class is almost down to walk-on offers. Lesser programs, and programs in colder regions of the country, may not be this far along.
The juco landscape by me is wildly different but when are kids committing to top 50 jucos and what type of players are they?
Are they the late bloomers, the not quite D1 guys, or the D1 walk-on guys? Would they be committing as juniors or seniors?
Up by me they are mostly tweeners who are "talking to D1s" but only have no money offers from D2s and D3s, or are fringe players who don't have the grades/scores to go to a D3 with semi competitive admissions. Nobody is ever really excited to commit to one.
The good players are drop downs who are coming home to play. Grades, playing time, and walk on cuts are the main culprits.
@PABaseball posted:The juco landscape by me is wildly different but when are kids committing to top 50 jucos and what type of players are they?
Are they the late bloomers, the not quite D1 guys, or the D1 walk-on guys? Would they be committing as juniors or seniors?
Up by me they are mostly tweeners who are "talking to D1s" but only have no money offers from D2s and D3s, or are fringe players who don't have the grades/scores to go to a D3 with semi competitive admissions. Nobody is ever really excited to commit to one.
The good players are drop downs who are coming home to play. Grades, playing time, and walk on cuts are the main culprits.
In JuCo hotbed areas (like Texas) players are committing to good JuCo programs the summer before their senior year typically. With later commits happening in the fall. And they are not fringe players. They are among the best HS players in the state. Many are capable of developing into solid D1 players.
@PABaseball posted:The juco landscape by me is wildly different but when are kids committing to top 50 jucos and what type of players are they?
Are they the late bloomers, the not quite D1 guys, or the D1 walk-on guys? Would they be committing as juniors or seniors?
Up by me they are mostly tweeners who are "talking to D1s" but only have no money offers from D2s and D3s, or are fringe players who don't have the grades/scores to go to a D3 with semi competitive admissions. Nobody is ever really excited to commit to one.
The good players are drop downs who are coming home to play. Grades, playing time, and walk on cuts are the main culprits.
Son's team was top 5 the last two years. The core HS recruits were guys who were very good HS players who were under recruited for some reason. For pitchers it was a lot of guys who threw around 86 but could really pitch. Guys who turned down lower D1 offers for the chance at better and it usually worked out. For hitters it was a lot of times size or lack of a position, but they could hit. They add strength and velocity and now you have guys throwing 93-94 who can pitch and guys who can mash up and down the lineup. Then we added a lot of D1 drop downs mostly from the SEC. Some were good and some couldn't play there either. Our best pitchers were our HS recruits, hitters were a little mixed between HS and D1 drop downs. The first year it was more HS kids, the 2nd year the D1 drop downs were the better hitters. He committed the Summer after his Jr year and he drug them along for probably 6 months. In hindsight he was committing to two years of baseball camp and he would have committed the day he was offered if he knew then what he knows now.
@Tres Elakes 24 posted:2024 recently attended a P5 camp. They had a recruiting talk for parents. During Q&A a parent asked, "How many players do you take from the transfer portal?" The coach answered, "I would take 35 twenty-three year olds if I could, because I know we will be back in Omaha".
And this offends most but if I was the coach I and most everyone else would do the same. I think you will still find the best getting playing time but trying to go above your head is not smart in today's world.
@PitchingFan posted:And this offends most but if I was the coach I and most everyone else would do the same. I think you will still find the best getting playing time but trying to go above your head is not smart in today's world.
Sure, but the coach also said "if I could" He can't, and if every P5 school tried to it's not a sustainable model.
I don't know. Every P5 could take 15 and still have guys left untransferred. There are 3 SEC schools who took 11, 3 others who took 10 and there are pages of guys in the portal that have not gone anywhere. I got tired of trying to count them but I'm guessing 300 plus who are left in the portal or have not reported in D1Baseball where they landed.
Last weekend in the St. Louis area 2024 was playing for the first time since July, and there were a number of colleges in attendance scouting players. I personally saw one D1 school, a couple of D2's, several D3's, 2 JUCO's, and no NAIA's at our games. This tournament was spread over several colleges, a minor league park, and two college wood bat parks, so it is probably safe to say that there were a number of schools out looking.
After our first game, coaches from a local D2 were talking to our HC about their interest in one of our 2023's.
Coaches from one of the JUCO's had their eye on the 2023 pitcher we faced in the second game. I've talked to the coaches before at games, and he asked me if I had ever seen this pitcher before. I hadn't, but another parent told them he had and said he was always a tough competitor. He pitched well and CubsSon took the loss.
After the game a D3 coach approached our son and they had a good conversation. It was a program 2024 had emailed with some video but had never heard back from. You never know...
My kid's HA D3 grabbed a transfer, a rare event I was told by son, in the rare moments he used more than 4 words in a conversation with me. The 2023s the kid played with or are friends with, few have D1 offers, several are pending offers or recently committed to D3.
@adbono posted:In JuCo hotbed areas (like Texas) players are committing to good JuCo programs the summer before their senior year typically. With later commits happening in the fall. And they are not fringe players. They are among the best HS players in the state. Many are capable of developing into solid D1 players.
Not doubting the quality - just wondering why they aren't going to D1 schools out of HS? Are the D1 offers not there or are they being told the juco route is the better route to go?
@PABaseball posted:Not doubting the quality - just wondering why they aren't going to D1 schools out of HS? Are the D1 offers not there or are they being told the juco route is the better route to go?
Lots of D1 programs in the sunshine states are prioritizing transfer portal and JuCo recruits over HS players. In this region of the country more are doing that than aren’t. So there aren’t as many HS kids being recruited. The smart (realistic) HS players know this and are not reluctant to commit to good JuCo programs before their senior year in HS.
@PABaseball posted:Not doubting the quality - just wondering why they aren't going to D1 schools out of HS? Are the D1 offers not there or are they being told the juco route is the better route to go?
There are A LOT of kids committing to D1's who will never see the field at those schools. If you aren't a stud (or targeting a school for academics), Juco is the way to go for most kids. Much better chances of getting playing time your first 2 years.
@adbono posted:In JuCo hotbed areas (like Texas) players are committing to good JuCo programs the summer before their senior year typically. With later commits happening in the fall. And they are not fringe players. They are among the best HS players in the state. Many are capable of developing into solid D1 players.
This…
if baseball is the dream, this is the quickest, most flexible and cheapest way to get that figured out.
if you can help a D1 win, they’ll find you… if you project to be a pro ball player, they’ll find you…
As frequently discussed on this board, the Sunshine States have exceptional Juco programs that prepare the player for a 4 year program. It's almost like being recruited from the portal, the players have game experience and 2 years of college. Very desirable. And if it's a lottery state like Florida, tuition is very affordable.
Please note the California JC web site. A "great" option for the HS student athlete.
SRJC has five former players now on MLB rosters. The school is also ranked Academic in the Top 10% in the Nation. The "key" is transferable credits.
https://www.cccbca.com/landing/index.
Bob
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As has been stated, d3's in the Northeast truly do recruit into the spring of recruits senior year. That goes for the best programs as well. They have no roster limits and often have jv teams, so they can take a flyer on a kid who can get accepted to the school. But the bulk is finished by December after that it's more the taking a flyer route, more reminiscent of an invited walk-on.
That being said, I still see kids who over think their talents, all you have to do is find their twitter posts from a few years back, all saying they are going D3, because they will play "right away" and you see their stats and they haven't or have barely seen the field the past two years. Based on their posts, I guess they thought they were D1 but went where they would play, or kids still have a stigma about D3 and seem to need to give a reason they're "only going" D3. D3 is a numbers game and if you don't work your tail off to see the field, they'll just pull someone else off their jv roster who shows better.
I have seen some d1 transfers to several of my son's D3 conference schools. Not tons, but it is happening as kids move closer to home and want to see the field.
Kid's HS teammate was named back up SS for his P5 team. A check on the win column for 2022.
I know of one player that was offered this past week, by a DI team that was in the Regionals. If a player has the talent, there are still opportunities.
@TPM posted:I am curious. Did they have their end of fall practice meetings with players?
I asked my kid and he told me the coach did meet with his former HS teammate and provided feedback. It looks like he will get some time in spring if the continues to develop.
I think team fall exits were early this year because of the portal window. It starts Dec.1.
My 2020's were at least 2 weeks ago. My 2022's haven't happened yet. But neither program are known for making fall cuts.
Ours happened 2 weeks ago. Cuts, gray shirts, redshirts.
Cuts happen in D1 when a coach brings in more than the allowed 35 man roster (or a few more if they have covid seniors). I don't understand why a coach would redshirt anyone before season unless they were hurt. You never know what will happen.
This might be a good question to ask during recruiting.
JMO
I'm with you TPM. Under the old system, you could only redshirt so many during a season or maybe none unless they got hurt but under the new system I would wait until it was all over and done. One bad weekend could take you out.
I've known players to be told they would "redshirt" who didn't have athletic scholarships. In other words, they were competing to be one of the 8 non-athletic-money players. Maybe that's a "grayshirt"? I think I remember hearing that some were told this before they arrived on campus, this was presented as, they would spend the first year working out and getting stronger. Did not turn out well. So even if you asked a coach during recruiting, it might be presented to you as a good thing.
The sad part of a pre-season redshirt is they don't get to do anything with the team. They have to do it all alone or with the other redshirts which is not good. You have all the resources physically but very little to none of the assitance. Over the years I have watched them and they look so sad out there. A few guys trying to pitch to each other and hit ground balls or fly balls to each other. They can't workout with the team. If you are not driven, it is a very lonely place to be.
PF brings up a good point, if you are not listed on the team roster, you are not part of the team. There are many players that don't get athletic money, but do get academic money but are on the roster.
In lottery states, this is common especially when the player is from instate and COA is relatively reasonable. But they are still part of the 35 man team.
Why would a coach tell someone in advance of coming they will redshirt?
So this, IMO is still a good question to ask. Plus, ask, will I be part of the 35 man roster?
FWIW, redshirt is essentially a term used to designate how many years the players has available to play.
I think this happens because people just have no clue how it works.
Well, you used to know, to some extent. All you had to look at was how many were in your recruiting class. Now, do you need to know how many were in the recruiting class, and guess how many transfers are coming over.
Last year our school had a recruiting class of 14. Five are left. Our school has taken lots of transfers.
We had a P5 school that told youngest son they would redshirt him and all except 1 of their freshmen. We put them at the end of the list but did not tell them just in case. I guess it would not have hurt since it was 2020 so everybody got redshirted. I have meant to go back and look to see what they did with that class. Knowing them, they redshirted both that class and the next.
Schools (especially D1s) over recruit for a number of reasons. Primarily because they can get away with it b/c of the over supply of good players. But also b/c they miss on half of their recruits. So they play the odds. If they need 6 they bring in 12 not knowing which of the 6 they really want to keep. And tuition revenue factors into it also. The primary reason to bring in 50 players in the fall, when the roster limit is 35, is that you have 15 extra players paying full tuition to the school. Even if it’s just for the fall semester that’s at least 150k in tuition revenue. If they can convince those fringe players to redshirt or grayshirt the revenue stream continues. Apply that principle to every sport across the board and it adds up in a hurry. University administrators have figured this out. You can ask about this all you like during recruiting but you won’t get an honest answer. I promise you that. You have to dig to get the truth about how any school manages their roster.
We have had this discussion before, over and over. While I agree there are some programs that do this, it's not across the board. If a program can't recruit well, we'll they have a problem so get rid of the guys who do that job, especially in P5 programs.
Try bringing in 50 in the fall with half the coaches out on the road recruiting and trying to end up with a decent winning program.
Or try fully funding your programs and it won't happen.
My opinions are based on the reality of what is actually happening. Not the way things should be. I have personally spoken to enough D1 coaches about this subject to know exactly what they are doing. And why.
@adbono posted:My opinions are based on the reality of what is actually happening. Not the way things should be. I have personally spoken to enough D1 coaches about this subject to know exactly what they are doing. And why.
You speak to your region, NOT how it is everywhere. I don't know a single DI school in my area of the midwest that makes that large of cuts, if any. Yes, most are mid-majors but some are P5 schools. This definitely seems to be mostly a Texas or mostly a southern thing.
@baseballmom01 posted:You speak to your region, NOT how it is everywhere. I don't know a single DI school in my area of the midwest that makes that large of cuts, if any. Yes, most are mid-majors but some are P5 schools. This definitely seems to be mostly a Texas or mostly a southern thing.
It’s a competitive thing. Not a regional thing. The more competitive the program the more this goes on. There are more competitive programs in Texas and in the south than in the Midwest or the Northeast. So if it’s more prevalent here that’s the reason.
@adbono posted:It’s a competitive thing. Not a regional thing. The more competitive the program the more this goes on. There are more competitive programs in Texas and in the south than in the Midwest or the Northeast. So if it’s more prevalent here that’s the reason.
So if the south is more competitive, wouldn't that still be considered a regional thing??
@baseballmom01 posted:You speak to your region, NOT how it is everywhere. I don't know a single DI school in my area of the midwest that makes that large of cuts, if any. Yes, most are mid-majors but some are P5 schools. This definitely seems to be mostly a Texas or mostly a southern thing.
baseballmom01,
I agree, it definetly is a regional thing.
@baseballmom01 posted:So if the south is more competitive, wouldn't that still be considered a regional thing??
I would think that the southern half of the United States is too much territory to be considered a region. It’s kinda beside the point anyway. The conversation is really about what goes on at the majority of the most competitive programs. No matter where they are located. Just so happens that more are in the southern half of the US than not. Maybe it has something to do with warmer weather.
@adbono posted:I would think that the southern half of the United States is too much territory to be considered a region. It’s kinda beside the point anyway. The conversation is really about what goes on at the majority of the most competitive programs. No matter where they are located. Just so happens that more are in the southern half of the US than not. Maybe it has something to do with warmer weather.
No, the original conversation was referring to all DI programs and that is what you originally said as well. So now you are saying it is only competitive programs that over recruit? Yes, we are all fully aware of the few programs that do that. That is nothing new to anyone. I was letting you know that that is not an across the board statement as that is not how most DI programs are run. I will let all those midwest baseball players know that they aren't competitive since it's not "warmer weather" up here.
@baseballmom01 posted:No, the original conversation was referring to all DI programs and that is what you originally said as well. So now you are saying it is only competitive programs that over recruit? Yes, we are all fully aware of the few programs that do that. That is nothing new to anyone. I was letting you know that that is not an across the board statement as that is not how most DI programs are run. I will let all those midwest baseball players know that they aren't competitive since it's not "warmer weather" up here.
There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
@adbono posted:There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
No arguing on my end. Just trying to provide the most accurate information to any parents coming here for help.
@adbono posted:There are exceptions to everything so I do not use the word ALL in my posts. So you are off base there. You are making a nice attempt at starting a meaningless argument. But I’m not interested.
It’s not all but it’s also not “a few”.
@baseballhs posted:It’s not all but it’s also not “a few”.
True. It’s the majority of the top 100 D1 programs.
@TPM posted:Can we find out who is in the majority of those top 100 D1 programs?
I am just curious as to who and where.
You can figure it out yourself. Just exclude Gainesville, Florida and look at every other SEC school. Then look at all ACC schools besides Clemson. Then look at the Big12 schools. And the top half of the Big 10 and Pac12. That will get most of them. Any schools that haven’t posted 2023 rosters are likely candidates.
I disagree. I know the top SEC teams don't do it. I've been tracking it pre and post Covid. There are a few but not the top teams. Now your state is a different thing. There are more in Texas, I believe, than any other state that cut players. I don't know of top teams that do it to a high degree.
@adbono posted:You can figure it out yourself. Just exclude Gainesville, Florida and look at every other SEC school. Then look at all ACC schools besides Clemson. Then look at the Big12 schools. And the top half of the Big 10 and Pac12. That will get most of them. Any schools that haven’t posted 2023 rosters are likely candidates.
Not sure the last time you looked but most P5 programs have not listed their 2023 rosters but that does not mean they haven't already set their 35 man roster (or up to 40 due to covid seniors).
I want to know, as I am sure others do, who brings in 50 in the fall.
@PitchingFan posted:I disagree. I know the top SEC teams don't do it. I've been tracking it pre and post Covid. There are a few but not the top teams. Now your state is a different thing. There are more in Texas, I believe, than any other state that cut players. I don't know of top teams that do it to a high degree.
Um....Arkansas?
How many did Arkansas cut? I know everyone will cut a few but when we were being recruited by them they did not overrecruit. I don't like Arkansas but they did not over recruit. Their biggest problem was they allowed a lot of guys to walk on and had preferred walk ons that many times they redshirted and they had a higher than normal redshirt list but not over recruiting.
@PitchingFan posted:How many did Arkansas cut? I know everyone will cut a few but when we were being recruited by them they did not overrecruit. I don't like Arkansas but they did not over recruit. Their biggest problem was they allowed a lot of guys to walk on and had preferred walk ons that many times they redshirted and they had a higher than normal redshirt list but not over recruiting.
Aren't they also known to recruit giant underdeveloped pitchers, redshirt them in the hope of developing them? I know of at least one, but was pre-covid. Kid was about 6'7" skinny as a rail.
@Master P posted:Um....Arkansas?
Yes, maybe the worst offender. Also Texas Tech, TCU, Oklahoma State, Houston, Wichita State, Grand Canyon…. just to name a few off the top of my head. Just look at the size of the typical recruiting class. Add JuCo transfers and portal transfers. If that number is more than 15 they are over recruiting. Do the math. Amazing to me the people that are affiliated with schools that aren’t bringing in big numbers in the fall don’t believe that it’s going on anywhere. It’s hard to prove b/c the worst offenders don’t publish a fall roster for this very reason. They don’t want the public to know how many they bring in every fall. But if you know you know. To me, finding schools that don’t over recruit should be one of the top priorities during the recruiting process.
Arkansas is the poster child for over recruiting in college baseball. And they have been for many years. They bring in close to 50 every fall. The walk ons at Arkansas are recruited players. Some are HS players and some are JuCo. They may not be on scholarship but they were recruited. When they spend a fall semester at Arkansas and then are asked to leave that is being cut.
@baseballhs posted:Well, you used to know, to some extent. All you had to look at was how many were in your recruiting class. Now, do you need to know how many were in the recruiting class, and guess how many transfers are coming over.
Last year our school had a recruiting class of 14. Five are left. Our school has taken lots of transfers.
I think it depends on the programs philosophy. There are programs that recruit on a 3 year cycle because of the draft. There are many, IMO, who aren't good at roster management. I think it's special skill not just reserved for P5 coaches.
The majority of the top programs do not want players staying forever so recruiting is a large part of the craziness.
So if a player looks like they may not get drafted in 3 years as previously thought, they may part ways or the player leaves thinking the grass is greener and that's ok.
A program will never have all of their committs graduate. But a good program will know how to bring their committs along fairly and slowly. Of course the more talented the prospect the less time that he will sit on the bench. It's not all about, IMO, bringing in more because you only need half. It's about bringing in the RIGHT guys for your program. You don't have to be a top P5 HC to achieve that goal.
It's also about the committs making the right choices as well.
JMO
Adbono
1992 SRJC finished #3 in the State of California Three players went to U Oklahoma, one player to Texas, one player Hawaii ( #7 ) ranked in America. They played every game the 1st year and 2nd year.
The entry to College of successful JC players has not lessen. This should be a major factor in a young player decision. Study, ask questions and in the Summer play against 20 year old players. Learn the real game!
“competition is a teaching and learning opportunity “
Bob
@nycdad posted:Aren't they also known to recruit giant underdeveloped pitchers, redshirt them in the hope of developing them? I know of at least one, but was pre-covid. Kid was about 6'7" skinny as a rail.
If a program brings in a young stud recruit, developing them should be about giving them opportunities to learn, not redshirting on the bench.
Bringing in a lot of future studs to sit it out is like hoarding, you don't want your biggest rival to have them.
@TPM posted:If a program brings in a young stud recruit, developing them should be about giving them opportunities to learn, not redshirting on the bench.
Bringing in a lot of future studs to sit it out is like hoarding, you don't want your biggest rival to have them.
And this is happening too. I think you base a lot of things on your son and where he is or the programs he was involved in. First, I don't think most of these coaches see themselves as bad guys and maybe they aren't, but some ARE snakes, and not a few. Yes, hard choices, but there are ways to do things that give guys a shot to move on. We cut a junior 2 weeks ago. Had they cut him over the summer, he would have been able to enter the portal and move on, instead, he can only go to a D2 now if he wants to play in the spring....he is stuck in a lease, etc. (By the way this is a kid who pitched in the Cape last summer, was a major contributor to the team that went to the championship, and D1 baseball did a write up on him). We also cut a sophomore 2 weeks ago, now he can't play in the spring unless its a JUCO. Coaches have choices, great, give kids options too. It's not isolated. We were very involved in the showcase circuit and know a ton of top 100 ranked 2019, 2020, 2021s. My information is current and although it may not be everywhere it IS widespread. Even mid majors that get been top 25 have done similar things. I have a million antidotal stories...people can take them with a grain of salt or maybe be cautious. I don't understand why any of us would lie about this, so acting like we are misinformed just doesn't make sense. if you are part of a program that doesn't operate this way, you are blessed and I would say that is an opportunity you should take.
@adbono posted:You can figure it out yourself. Just exclude Gainesville, Florida and look at every other SEC school. Then look at all ACC schools besides Clemson. Then look at the Big12 schools. And the top half of the Big 10 and Pac12. That will get most of them. Any schools that haven’t posted 2023 rosters are likely candidates.
I would love to know which teams you are referring to in the top half of the Big 10! Side note...they have all posted their 2023 rosters as well.
@baseballmom01 posted:I would love to know which teams you are referring to in the top half of the Big 10! Side note...they have all posted their 2023 rosters as well.
The very first team I pulled up was Nebraska. Don’t know much about that program, but they do have the roster listed. And there’s 46 on it that’s 11 that need to be cut, red shirted or be COVID grad students.
@baseballhs posted:The very first team I pulled up was Nebraska. Don’t know much about that program, but they do have the roster listed. And there’s 46 on it that”s 11 that need to be cut, red shirted or be COVID grad students.
One school..not Michigan, Rutgers, Maryland who are all in the top half of the Big 10. How many of them are Covid Seniors which allows a higher roster limit? Still not massive over recruiting.
Again, not saying it is not happening at other schools, but can't say I agree with some of the "blanket statements" that have been made.
@baseballhs posted:And this is happening too. I think you base a lot of things on your son and where he is or the programs he was involved in. First, I don't think most of these coaches see themselves as bad guys and maybe they aren't, but some ARE snakes, and not a few. Yes, hard choices, but there are ways to do things that give guys a shot to move on. We cut a junior 2 weeks ago. Had they cut him over the summer, he would have been able to enter the portal and move on, instead, he can only go to a D2 now if he wants to play in the spring....he is stuck in a lease, etc. (By the way this is a kid who pitched in the Cape last summer, was a major contributor to the team that went to the championship, and D1 baseball did a write up on him). We also cut a sophomore 2 weeks ago, now he can't play in the spring unless its a JUCO. Coaches have choices, great, give kids options too. It's not isolated. We were very involved in the showcase circuit and know a ton of top 100 ranked 2019, 2020, 2021s. My information is current and although it may not be everywhere it IS widespread. Even mid majors that get been top 25 have done similar things. I have a million antidotal stories...people can take them with a grain of salt or maybe be cautious. I don't understand why any of us would lie about this, so acting like we are misinformed just doesn't make sense. if you are part of a program that doesn't operate this way, you are blessed and I would say that is an opportunity you should take.
So you think because this happens at your son's program, that it happens everywhere? Maybe very much where you are. It's a shame.
I stand by what I posted, some guys aren't very good at roster management.
I think I am familiar with enough current and former players to know what goes on at many programs. I have many friends whose sons played, are now coaches themselves or employed with ML teams. These guys come from all different types of successful programs. The ones that did it the right way and still do. That's why their former guys are successful.
Excellent example by @baseballhs. I’m sure there are other Big10 schools that fit the same mold.
@TPM posted:Not all.
All the ones in the top half last year have. Maryland, Rutgers, Iowa, Michigan..
@baseballmom01 posted:All the ones in the top half last year have. Maryland, Rutgers, Iowa, Michigan..
Ohio State has a 2022 2023 roster, that's not an official spring roster. Nebraska does not have their spring roster up 40 is the max.
Can't go by what's posted now, despite what is mentioned here.
@baseballmom01 posted:One school..not Michigan, Rutgers, Maryland who are all in the top half of the Big 10. How many of them are Covid Seniors which allows a higher roster limit? Still not massive over recruiting.
Again, not saying it is not happening at other schools, but can't say I agree with some of the "blanket statements" that have been made.
If they want to play any games against other schools in the fall, they have to cut down before doing so. Many schools made cuts weeks ago so they could play a game against another school. I don't really know any schools that post their rosters before cuts are made.
Pre-Covid, Michigan and Maryland had 13-14 in every recruiting class not counting transfers.
@langra posted:If they want to play any games against other schools in the fall, they have to cut down before doing so. Many schools made cuts weeks ago so they could play a game against another school. I don't really know any schools that post their rosters before cuts are made.
Pre-Covid, Michigan and Maryland had 13-14 in every recruiting class not counting transfers.
But not 50 which was mentioned here.
Final rosters come right before season starts.
Maryland roster shows 40 players including 13 freshmen. 35 is max for spring meaning at least 5 will be cut or redshirted. Probably all freshmen. That’s the situation now. As mentioned in a post above there were likely earlier cuts. Even if there were not earlier cuts, 5 cut out of 13 incoming freshmen is just under 40%. If only 60% of a recruiting class is still on the roster after one semester I call that over recruiting.
Maryland has 2 5th year seniors. They only have to cut 3.
@TPM posted:But not 50 which was mentioned here.
Final rosters come right before season starts.
If you sign 13-14 plus transfers every year, you are probably around 45+ to start each fall. It isn't as bad as Texas Tech signing 20/year but it's still over-recruiting.
Arkansas is sort of weird. They definitely over-recruit but they tell most recruits the scholarship is only for 3 years. If they don't get drafted Jr year they have to pay for Sr year.
Right now, looking at rosters to figure out recruiting tactics is sort of futile--covid seniors, transfers, not knowing when cuts are made etc.
@langra posted:Arkansas is sort of weird. They definitely over-recruit but they tell most recruits the scholarship is only for 3 years. If they don't get drafted Jr year they have to pay for Sr year.
That isn't something new. That was sons offer years ago. That was what I was referring to as the 3 year cycle. Recruiting is a skill, not every HC and their RC is good at it. Now throw in the covid guys and it gets messy. The problem isn't the roster limits its the 11.7 and lack of funding.
I am still waiting on who brings in 50 in the fall, its obvious there are programs that over recruit, its not a new concept.
If you can't mention who they are, than why are you mentioning it?
Found a Texas program close to 50 that is not a P5.
@langra posted:Arkansas is sort of weird. They definitely over-recruit but they tell most recruits the scholarship is only for 3 years. If they don't get drafted Jr year they have to pay for Sr year.
They can’t do that. Starting in 2017 or 2018, all P5 scholarships are required to be 4 years if you get money as a freshman. They can ask you to leave (and if you want to play, you almost have to) but they cannot take your scholarship or only offer you 3 years.
Basic question here - when looking at PG recruiting board, I always wondered how 20 kids posted commitments to a single school when the math never worked on every one of them having received a 25% offer - and further assumed that some of them did actually have offers of 50%+ (not to mention all the great players already on scholarship). Is it safe to assume that some of the kids are recruited walk-ons and do not have scholarship offers when they post commitments? Do the schools offer more scholarships than are available and whittle it down during the NLI process? Are any kids told they might get scholarship dollars if enough of the remaining kids get drafted or fall away for other reasons? IS it a combination of the above?
It is a combination of all the above.
Adbono, we normally agree but 46 is not too many. If you can have 40 because most p5 schools have 3-5 Covid grads, you will have 2-3 that are hurt each year that the coach will know can't play spring and 2-3 that are not ready to play as freshmen and 2-3 that didn't continue to get to the level they should or discipline or grades or such. Then you also have 2-3 who read the writing on the wall and quit because they were 3rd or 4th or lower on the depth chart and aren't willing to wait.
I disagree with the statement that a walk-on not being kept is cutting. If you are a walk-on, you are not guaranteed anything. A preferred walk-on is guaranteed to be kept through the fall but that is all. There are very few schools that guarantee a roster spot to anyone not on scholarship in today's world. It may be assumed but you know what happens when you assume. If you go there, recruited or on your own as a walk-on, you know there is a chance you are not on the spring roster. If you don't shame on you.
@TPM posted:Ohio State has a 2022 2023 roster, that's not an official spring roster. Nebraska does not have their spring roster up 40 is the max.
Can't go by what's posted now, despite what is mentioned here.
Nebraska currently has 46 kids on their 22-23 roster. Ohio State has totally changed their recruiting philosophy with their new coaching staff. Look for them to start using the same SEC/Big12 model.
@TPM posted:I am still waiting on who brings in 50 in the fall, its obvious there are programs that over recruit, its not a new concept.
Arkansas started the fall with 44 kids. This doesn't count the 6-7 signees that they called in the summer and said, "Sorry, don't come. We don't have a spot for you, good luck."
The 44 to 46 is not a problem for me. If the 6-7 is true, then it needs to get out and it will hurt them. It did not happen when they were recruiting son but that has been 5-6 years ago.
@PitchingFan posted:Adbono, we normally agree but 46 is not too many. If you can have 40 because most p5 schools have 3-5 Covid grads, you will have 2-3 that are hurt each year that the coach will know can't play spring and 2-3 that are not ready to play as freshmen and 2-3 that didn't continue to get to the level they should or discipline or grades or such. Then you also have 2-3 who read the writing on the wall and quit because they were 3rd or 4th or lower on the depth chart and aren't willing to wait.
I disagree with the statement that a walk-on not being kept is cutting. If you are a walk-on, you are not guaranteed anything. A preferred walk-on is guaranteed to be kept through the fall but that is all. There are very few schools that guarantee a roster spot to anyone not on scholarship in today's world. It may be assumed but you know what happens when you assume. If you go there, recruited or on your own as a walk-on, you know there is a chance you are not on the spring roster. If you don't shame on you.
Yes, we often agree. But in this case the only thing I agree with is that we don’t agree. And here is my reasoning:
Over the course of a 60 ish game D1 season the distribution of playing time looks like this. 12 position players get the meaningful at bats and 10 pitchers share the meaningful innings with 3-4 getting the lion’s share of them. That makes 22 players. Add an extra player at the C, IF, & OF positions and you have your 25 man travel roster. With a 35 man roster you have 10 players to take care of all the things you mentioned that cause attrition. 35 players is more than enough. Anything beyond that is just more guys that get no playing time, minimal reps in practice, no attention from the coaching staff, etc. But they pay that tuition, don’t they!? IMO there is no need to bring in more than 38 in the fall if you intend to give every kid a fair shot. So not only is 46 too many, it’s too many by a count of 6-8 players.
Regarding walk ons… they don’t just appear on a D1 campus of a competitive program. They are recruited and invited. I don’t believe there is any real distinction between a preferred walk on and a walk on. Neither are promised anything and both are likely to be cut. However, almost all of them (foolishly in most cases) passed on scholarship opportunities at other schools. When they are asked to leave a D1 school that is being cut and counts as such in my mind.
Blatant over recruiting is widespread. And IMO a huge part of the recruiting process for players and parents should be identifying the programs (at that player’s level) that don’t over recruit and focusing on them. I’m not saying it’s an easy thing to do. The information you need is purposely obscured from public scrutiny. But I am saying that it’s one of the very most important aspects in determining the kind of experience a college player has.
We actually agree on much of it but I put it on the players and families as the majority and the coaches as the minority. The ones who are blatantly lying is one thing but if you do your research, you know those already and stay away from them. Our favorite SEC school growing up had a tradition of over recruiting and cutting kids at the end of fall so we did not even send them an email or anything. Parents should do their research for the kid. Those who say they let their kid drive that recruiting car get what they deserve. That would be like putting a kid in a literal car who had never driven with anyone and put them on the interstate. You can't blame anyone but yourself when you car and your kid get destroyed. It is our duty as a parent to drive the car with the kid getting input and learning. Those who don't get what they deserve.
We, which really means me, did a great amount of research on every team son was interested in. I knew the roster sizes and history of roster, who over recruited and who didn't, players son had to compete for playing time with that were already at school and those who were already committed, coaching tenures, pitching coach philosophy, and records. UT was near the middle until they fired their coach and hired Vitello. Checked a lot of boxes. Only had 1 left handed pitcher who would be on roster when son arrived. Only had 3 total LHP's that had committed who son would have to compete with early on. Pitching coach had proven record of not being a high velo required guy. Had a son, LHP, very similar to mine who pitched in pros.
If son was in recruiting now, UT probably would not be on the list because now we have a bunch of LHP's that son would have to fight against to get playing time. My quote is: How many players wearing the same uniform will you have to beat out to compete against the team wearing the other uniforms?
I reckon for me I also the guys who stayed the course at UT who were redshirted as freshmen and didn't get to play as sophomores but were drafted last year after only one year of full-time play. I realized that you can make 46 work if you are willing to stay the course. The problem in today's world is very few are willing to wait their time in college baseball or play a role. Son could have been starter at almost every mid-major and even lower P5 schools that recruited him but he wanted to play with the best and against the best and that has been the case. He will never start at UT but he has been to the college world series, been SEC regular and tournament champions and has 2 more years he can play. He will leave with his name at the top of at least one record in the record book and may be in top 5 of several after this year. He knows his role and is fine with it. He has been able to experience some incredible things even if he never gets a chance at pro ball.
@PitchingFan, I completely agree with all you say in your last post. However, you and I have more extensive baseball backgrounds than most HSBBW members. You knew how to do your homework and you did it well. That has a lot to do with the kind of experience that your son is enjoying at Tennessee. I did a similar job doing homework for my son and his experience was also tremendous - tho cut short by a back injury. You also can’t discount the fact that Covid related developments have complicated the recruiting process terribly. You and I didn’t have to contend with that.
To answer the original question, my son was just offered by a D1 mid major last Fri. Unfortunately, they don't stack athletic and academic (is this very common?). The amount he will get from either is similar so we chose academic as he has opportunity of getting more in academic money come Feb/Mar. Coach also said that it's possible (although rare) to get athletic money after year 1 and that can stack on top of academic he already has, but the other way is not possible.
I tried to do my research but not sure if I know enough to do a thorough research. They took 10 HS players in 2021, 5 in 2022, and 9 in 2023 (as of today). Coach said they do take in Juco players but don't really play in the transfer portal. Since my son will not be taking athletic scholarship, my understanding is he will not need to sign an NLI, correct? We asked the coach if going with academic scholarship means he is treated as a preferred walk on with no assurance of a roster spot compared to someone going with athletic scholarship. Coach said they still will have an agreement that the school and my son will sign that commits my son to the school and commits a roster spot to my son. Hope this all makes sense. Is there anything I need to be careful of or look out for?
If the money is near the same I would opt for athletic over academic. Coach can say whatever he wants but reality is that kids on athletic money are in a superior position to those that aren’t.
Agreed. Athletic guarantees a roster spot but academic does not guarantee it and I don't really care what you sign. A signed document is only as good as it can be enforced. If you sign that document, it should have a repercussion on it if either side does not follow through or it is just a gentleman's agreement.
@adbono posted:If the money is near the same I would opt for athletic over academic. Coach can say whatever he wants but reality is that kids on athletic money are in a superior position to those that aren’t.
I think that decision depends on how focused they are on baseball. Academic money is almost always a 4 year deal (with some minimum GPA requirements that are not too difficult). The athletic scholarship money - Mid Major - is for one year - and could drop if starting out above the minimum or simply go away altogether. It does make an early release from the team easier, but if the kid is on the bubble to begin with (not saying he is - just if), then a release is simply postponed.
As for the "agreement" that commits the player and the coach - I am waiting to hear from others what that might be because I have absolutely no idea what he could be referring to. Also not quite sure why stacking is not allowed freshman year, but could come into play as you outlined. Would like to hear more specifics and any other examples from others.
Lesson learned for all. How much a team, not a school but a team, has invested in you is how much room you get to fail. That goes for pro teams also. How much they invest in a player determines the room to fail, not succeed.
What a minefield. I'm curious about the D1 stacking question also. Perhaps rules are different in D2 but my kid has both athletic and academic merit money as an incoming freshman.
@Dadbelly2023 posted:What a minefield. I'm curious about the D1 stacking question also. Perhaps rules are different in D2 but my kid has both athletic and academic merit money as an incoming freshman.
May be a school thing. Son got both at a P5/D1.
@PitchingFan Your son is a fan favorite, so fun to watch. We are cheering for him to make it to the next level. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen him coming down the 1st base line from the bullpen and interacting with the younger kids.
@Dadbelly2023 posted:What a minefield. I'm curious about the D1 stacking question also. Perhaps rules are different in D2 but my kid has both athletic and academic merit money as an incoming freshman.
My son just signed his NIL to a P5 and will also be getting academic money to stack on top of that. The school he was previously committed to, also a P5, also had him on both athletic and academic. His top school when he was a freshman (private P5) could not stack athletic and academic. So I think it may be a school to school basis on if stacking is allowed.
@Table46 posted:@PitchingFan Your son is a fan favorite, so fun to watch. We are cheering for him to make it to the next level. I can’t tell you how many times I have seen him coming down the 1st base line from the bullpen and interacting with the younger kids.
Fun side story that should make @PitchingFan smile...
Our sons played together for a couple years, though PF and I never really knew each other at the time. Whenever there was a foul ball down the line on our side, Kirby would always run after it using 100% effort, sprinting full-speed to pick it up and back to the dug-out.
Even now, several years later, we still use the verb he invented for us. I told my son just the other day after a fall ball game that I was proud of the way he had "kirby-ed" that foul ball. 
He has done that for years. Started when his middle brother was playing at The Citadel. He was the bat boy. He was determined no one would get a foul ball or passed ball behind home plate. They were playing a P5 one day and he actually slid in and stole a ball right out in front of a well known HC who has raced him to get a ball behind the umpire. The whole place erupted. It is somewhere on YouTube. Don’t remember title of it now.
Re Academic vs. Athletic money - I didn't realize that the team may be less invested in you and have less motivation to keep you in the roster if you are on academic scholarship vs. athletic. Based on what I read from other sites, I thought that you are making yourself more attractive to the coach by being able to take academic money as it helps the team to spend it on other kids that may not have the same academic qualification. At the end of the day, my perspective is that I helped my son get his foot in the door. It's up to my son to take advantage of the opportunity and earn his spot in the roster. I guess what you all are telling me is that he is given less room to fail if he takes academic money?
Re stacking athletic and academic money - As evidenced with how late my son got an offer, he wasn't highly recruited by the big P5 schools. The schools that has shown interest are all D1 mid major, D3 and Juco. Every D1 mid major that has shown interest in him (around 10 schools) all said they do not stack. His teammates that got offered by P5 said all the P5 schools that has shown interest in him stacks. Not sure if the norm is big P5 school can stack and D1 mid major don't stack.
My kids' D1s, and previous D1 that oldest was at stack money. There are NCAA requirements you have to meet. Not sure what they are now, but they were: 3.5GPA or 1270 SAT (equiv ACT). And you need to maintain a 3.0 GPA once enrolled.
@atlnon posted:Re Academic vs. Athletic money - I didn't realize that the team may be less invested in you and have less motivation to keep you in the roster if you are on academic scholarship vs. athletic. Based on what I read from other sites, I thought that you are making yourself more attractive to the coach by being able to take academic money as it helps the team to spend it on other kids that may not have the same academic qualification. At the end of the day, my perspective is that I helped my son get his foot in the door. It's up to my son to take advantage of the opportunity and earn his spot in the roster. I guess what you all are telling me is that he is given less room to fail if he takes academic money?
Re stacking athletic and academic money - As evidenced with how late my son got an offer, he wasn't highly recruited by the big P5 schools. The schools that has shown interest are all D1 mid major, D3 and Juco. Every D1 mid major that has shown interest in him (around 10 schools) all said they do not stack. His teammates that got offered by P5 said all the P5 schools that has shown interest in him stacks. Not sure if the norm is big P5 school can stack and D1 mid major don't stack.
You are right. The coaches love you for getting academic versus athletic BUT they have nothing invested in you. The school does but the team does not. Pro teams love a player who will sign for less money, but they also again have less invested in you. The coaches and baseball loves players who get academic instead of athletic. It also is easier to cut them. No rules to play by for NCAA.
@PitchingFan posted:You are right. The coaches love you for getting academic versus athletic BUT they have nothing invested in you. The school does but the team does not. Pro teams love a player who will sign for less money, but they also again have less invested in you. The coaches and baseball loves players who get academic instead of athletic. It also is easier to cut them. No rules to play by for NCAA.
100% on point.
@PitchingFan posted:You are right. The coaches love you for getting academic versus athletic BUT they have nothing invested in you. The school does but the team does not. Pro teams love a player who will sign for less money, but they also again have less invested in you. The coaches and baseball loves players who get academic instead of athletic. It also is easier to cut them. No rules to play by for NCAA.
Exactly. My kids (D1 baseball and softball) received 50% academic money. I advised them if they don’t receive athletic money chances are they start viewed as a back end of the roster player. They both received 25% athletic.
It worked well for everyone. My kids each had 75% rides. The coaches only gave up 25%. But they had skin (athletic money) in the game. A kid who can stick through college on 25% is a plus for the program. They have more to give to other players.
@atlnon posted:Re Academic vs. Athletic money - I didn't realize that the team may be less invested in you and have less motivation to keep you in the roster if you are on academic scholarship vs. athletic. Based on what I read from other sites, I thought that you are making yourself more attractive to the coach by being able to take academic money as it helps the team to spend it on other kids that may not have the same academic qualification. At the end of the day, my perspective is that I helped my son get his foot in the door. It's up to my son to take advantage of the opportunity and earn his spot in the roster. I guess what you all are telling me is that he is given less room to fail if he takes academic money?
With only 11.7 scholarships no program is actually forced to award any athletic $$ to any of the 27 max players allowed. That's why programs stack athletic with academic. It is also up to the coaches budget. Many programs are not even FULLY funded.
That's why NIL opportunities have become a big consideration in recruiting.
There has been discussion here on several occassions about a program letting players go because the coach needed their athletic $$. So according to what's been posted, even if you have athletic $$, you might not have skin in the game.
There is discussion and hopes that the NCAA will allow more athletic scholarships for baseball and other sports.
Your son has found an opportunity, and his situation is not unique. There are MANY players out there not on athletic scholarship.
JMO
Got to disagree in this instance where the kid is offered athletic but chooses academic. Again no big hassle to cut the 25% athletic kid after one year. If I am coach and have to decide between 25% athletic kid and academic kid - who is a freebie - then I am cutting the 25% kid and hanging on to my freebie. The athletic investment at a mid major has a very short shelf life. No big hassle in cutting him loose.
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:Got to disagree in this instance where the kid is offered athletic but chooses academic. Again no big hassle to cut the 25% athletic kid after one year. If I am coach and have to decide between 25% athletic kid and academic kid - who is a freebie - then I am cutting the 25% kid and hanging on to my freebie. The athletic investment at a mid major has a very short shelf life. No big hassle in cutting him loose.
Chances are if a coach is deciding on his last cut of who to keep and who to let go neither player is in a good place. The player kept is likely at the end of the bench and not getting on the field.
@RJM posted:Chances are if a coach is deciding on his last cut of who to keep and who to let go neither player is in a good place. The player kept is likely at the end of the bench and not getting on the field.
That is true but the whole discussion was about who gets cut first - and conversely who lives one more year with a chance to work for playing time. Certainly not a good situation to be anywhere near the cut line but it happens. There has been tremendous support here for academics and academic money so I thought I would argue for the academic money. Don't seem to have too many supporters for this approach.
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:That is true but the whole discussion was about who gets cut first - and conversely who lives one more year with a chance to work for playing time. Certainly not a good situation to be anywhere near the cut line but it happens. There has been tremendous support here for academics and academic money so I thought I would argue for the academic money. Don't seem to have too many supporters for this approach.
Those that are saying that athletic money matters more are (for the most part) the ones that have gone thru the experience. They have seen in play out firsthand with their own eyes. But what do they know!?
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:That is true but the whole discussion was about who gets cut first - and conversely who lives one more year with a chance to work for playing time. Certainly not a good situation to be anywhere near the cut line but it happens. There has been tremendous support here for academics and academic money so I thought I would argue for the academic money. Don't seem to have too many supporters for this approach.
If you scroll back a few posts I described a win-win situation. My kids both received academic and athletic money. Combined, college was inexpensive. The coach was invested in them. Their academic portion provided the coach more athletic money to spend elsewhere.
Who gets cut first?
It is the player who doesn't contribute to the team GPA or the team success.
@TPM posted:It's the team GPA because that's a bonus to the HC and possibly the academic advisor.
The next debate would be what’s worse, losing a bonus or a scholarship? For the academic advisor it’s an easy answer. For the coach it depends on the circumstances of the moment.
@RJM posted:The next debate would be what’s worse, losing a bonus or a scholarship? For the academic advisor it’s an easy answer. For the coach it depends on the circumstances of the moment.
Exactly. It’s possible for the decision to be made b/c of team GPA. But all things being equal it’s more likely to be made based on who is on athletic money and who isn’t.
FWIW:
3 kids from my son's club were cut before Thanksgiving. One was a 2022, P5 PWO. Another was mid major PWO. The 3rd was a 2021 mid major who was getting athletic AND academic money. Its a production business and its just that.....business.
@Master P posted:FWIW:
3 kids from my son's club were cut before Thanksgiving. One was a 2022, P5 PWO. Another was mid major PWO. The 3rd was a 2021 mid major who was getting athletic AND academic money. Its a production business and its just that.....business.
It's not uncommon parents and players coming out of high school don't get it. The high school coach is usually a teacher making a few extra thousand coaching. A college coach is paying the mortgage and feeding his family by winning. Otherwise, he gets fired and puts it all at risk.
@RJM posted:It's not uncommon parents and players coming out of high school don't get it. The high school coach is usually a teacher making a few extra thousand coaching. A college coach is paying the mortgage and feeding his family by winning. Otherwise, he gets fired and puts it all at risk.
I don't think this is the case. Everyone likes to say the whole "college coaches are playing to feed their family" but how true is this of say the bottom 3rd of D1 programs? Take Brown for example. That coach has been there 9 years, perennial loser. Sure it's one example, but again, probably the bottom 3rd of coaches do not have the same pressure as P5 schools, etc.
@nycdad posted:I don't think this is the case. Everyone likes to say the whole "college coaches are playing to feed their family" but how true is this of say the bottom 3rd of D1 programs? Take Brown for example. That coach has been there 9 years, perennial loser. Sure it's one example, but again, probably the bottom 3rd of coaches do not have the same pressure as P5 schools, etc.
Definitely not true of D2 coaches. I am currently finishing my Master's Degree and one of my professors for my mental health class is the current coach of a D2 school in my area. Funny thing is he knew of my son and which D1 school he had gone to and I got a great grade in his class! 
@nycdad posted:I don't think this is the case. Everyone likes to say the whole "college coaches are playing to feed their family" but how true is this of say the bottom 3rd of D1 programs? Take Brown for example. That coach has been there 9 years, perennial loser. Sure it's one example, but again, probably the bottom 3rd of coaches do not have the same pressure as P5 schools, etc.
I agree.
I think what all coaches really want to do is fill in their own line up card for every game and help mentor boys who will become responsible men. They also take pride in mentoring their assistants who go on to be Head Coaches.
Not everyone has the desire to be #1.
JMO
@nycdad posted:I don't think this is the case. Everyone likes to say the whole "college coaches are playing to feed their family" but how true is this of say the bottom 3rd of D1 programs? Take Brown for example. That coach has been there 9 years, perennial loser. Sure it's one example, but again, probably the bottom 3rd of coaches do not have the same pressure as P5 schools, etc.
Who is looking at these program? Not players who care about winning. Granted some players will use the baseball program to get into the college. Once in caring about playing is a toss up.
@RJM posted:Who is looking at these program? Not players who care about winning. Granted some players will use the baseball program to get into the college. Once in caring about playing is a toss up.
What happened to the kinder/gentler HSBB attitude about helping high school kids looking for a place to play baseball in college? What happened to most the idea that most "decent" players can probably find a place to play college ball albeit not necessarily a perfect match? There are lots of players that care about winning that don't have the skills to ever sniff a D1 lineup - much less the CWS - but will grind it out four years of college baseball, in front of a few family and friends, in hopes of winning each game. I never took this site for a "P5 or die" approach and rather enjoyed to discussions about D3 baseball opportunities.
Can anyone quote the number of high school kids committing to a P5 baseball program yearly? Any one know what percentage P5 commits comprise of all high school kids heading to college to play baseball (as well as hopefully get an education at the same time)? I'll throw out 5%. This site IMO was never how to get your kid signed by a P5 school (usual comment was if you are good enough for P5 - then P5 will find you). This site - again IMO - was about the other 95% (assuming my wild guess 5% is correct).
Well my numbers are little dated (from 2020):
number of HS bb players: 512213
number of college bb players: 61211 12%
number of D1 players: 10756 2%
number of D1P5 players: 2400 .47%
number of MLB players: 1200 .23%
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:What happened to the kinder/gentler HSBB attitude about helping high school kids looking for a place to play baseball in college? What happened to most the idea that most "decent" players can probably find a place to play college ball albeit not necessarily a perfect match? There are lots of players that care about winning that don't have the skills to ever sniff a D1 lineup - much less the CWS - but will grind it out four years of college baseball, in front of a few family and friends, in hopes of winning each game. I never took this site for a "P5 or die" approach and rather enjoyed to discussions about D3 baseball opportunities.
Can anyone quote the number of high school kids committing to a P5 baseball program yearly? Any one know what percentage P5 commits comprise of all high school kids heading to college to play baseball (as well as hopefully get an education at the same time)? I'll throw out 5%. This site IMO was never how to get your kid signed by a P5 school (usual comment was if you are good enough for P5 - then P5 will find you). This site - again IMO - was about the other 95% (assuming my wild guess 5% is correct).
There are many members of HSBBW that have been around a lot longer than I have and maybe some of them will offer their opinions. But here is mine. I believe that you have made assumptions about the history of this site that aren’t accurate. That’s my perception anyway. I believe this site was born out of a need to make good information available to competitive baseball families. It proved to be a very useful tool to many people but was initially geared more towards higher level players - those with upper D1 and draft talent. Over the years, as more people have joined, there has been a big increase in interest in other levels of baseball. And therefore more conversation about those levels. Some people like that and some people don’t.
I think it is good that there are so many different paths represented here. I will contribute to conversations that I feel I have some knowledge on and others, I won't because I have zero experience, but someone else does. I think the conversations of late have tended to be about how cut throat D1/P5 has become, because it does trickle down. There are some players that 100% have the talent to play D1 that are having to move down, which will then push others down. We have a kid that started in the Cape Cod championship game this summer. Sits 93-94...he just got cut and will be taking someone's D2 starting position in a few months.
@atlnon posted:To answer the original question, my son was just offered by a D1 mid major last Fri. Unfortunately, they don't stack athletic and academic (is this very common?). The amount he will get from either is similar so we chose academic as he has opportunity of getting more in academic money come Feb/Mar. Coach also said that it's possible (although rare) to get athletic money after year 1 and that can stack on top of academic he already has, but the other way is not possible.
I tried to do my research but not sure if I know enough to do a thorough research. They took 10 HS players in 2021, 5 in 2022, and 9 in 2023 (as of today). Coach said they do take in Juco players but don't really play in the transfer portal. Since my son will not be taking athletic scholarship, my understanding is he will not need to sign an NLI, correct? We asked the coach if going with academic scholarship means he is treated as a preferred walk on with no assurance of a roster spot compared to someone going with athletic scholarship. Coach said they still will have an agreement that the school and my son will sign that commits my son to the school and commits a roster spot to my son. Hope this all makes sense. Is there anything I need to be careful of or look out for?
I think that I can add some insight to the Stacking academic scholarship question and why it is different from school to school.
Each school is different depending upon how they handle academic scholarships. In years past no one could stack scholarships because almost all academic institutions had scholarship boards/committees that awarded academic scholarships to students based upon their application. It was a subjective process. The NCAA doesn't allow stacking of academic scholarships under such a subjective process for fear that academic scholarships are being used to circumvent the NCAA scholarship rules. Many of the institutions have started to move away from that in large part because of accusations of unfair scholarship awarding practices. They have instead instituted sliding scales that predetermine the award based upon set parameters. In instances such as this then the NCAA allows academic scholarships to be awarded to athletes and not count against the scholarship limitations.
So for example if your son is going to school A, that doesn't use a predetermined sliding scale, then the academic scholarship can't be stacked. If he were to go to school B, where every incoming freshman academic awards are predetermine based upon the merit sliding scale (ie.. a 4.0 GPA and 27 ACT equals $10,000 academic award for all students that meet that criteria) then you can stack the $10,000 on top of the Athletic scholarship as long as you have those GPA/ACT numbers. Also, some states have land grant scholarships for their citizens also. Those can be stacked as well if you are a citizen of that state and go to a state institution that qualifies for those awards.
As far as not being able to stack as a Freshman, but can stack as a Sophomore and beyond. That is typically true if the institution has predetermined scholarships available for current students. For example.... You son attends School A as a freshman and finishes his first year with a 3.5 GPA. School A happens to have a "Retention Scholarship" for all Sophomore students who completed a Freshman year with that GPA. If this is the case then the academic scholarship can be stacked with the athletic scholarship in subsequent years.
I hope that I explained that well.
I've read a lot of old threads on this site. People always did ask questions about D3 schools, but 10-20 years ago the answers to those questions were not very helpful at all. Now there is a pretty good representation of posters from all levels, so that questions about P5 and the draft get experienced answers, and so do questions about D3 and juco. That is a good thing, since where a person thinks their son is going might not, in fact, be where he ends up.
For coaches, I think there's a difference between a team that consistently goes .050, and a team that is closer to .400. With the former, the school might wonder why they are paying for that sport at all, and it would be hard to recruit in order to improve. But being below .500 still offers the chance of having a standout year or some signature wins, and if the coach is graduating good people, then why not keep him? I would imagine that in many cases it would also depend on what the alumni want, and at most schools, the only alumni who care about the baseball team are going to be former players.
The "Pro Scout" team is a valuable tool for a HS player to prepare for the next step in his pursuit of College baseball.
In California, Arizona and Nevada every player has this opportunity. In the Fall the "Scout" teams with wood bats play JC College and Division 2 programs. PRO SCOUTS COACH THE TEAMS.
For 3 years, I managed the Cubs scout team in Northern California.
The player receives the Scouts evaluation of his talents for College and the recommend level of entrance.
Why be frustrated when you can prepare by playing "Up" to a higher level.
Bob
@2017 Lefty Dad posted:What happened to the kinder/gentler HSBB attitude about helping high school kids looking for a place to play baseball in college? What happened to most the idea that most "decent" players can probably find a place to play college ball albeit not necessarily a perfect match? There are lots of players that care about winning that don't have the skills to ever sniff a D1 lineup - much less the CWS - but will grind it out four years of college baseball, in front of a few family and friends, in hopes of winning each game. I never took this site for a "P5 or die" approach and rather enjoyed to discussions about D3 baseball opportunities.
Can anyone quote the number of high school kids committing to a P5 baseball program yearly? Any one know what percentage P5 commits comprise of all high school kids heading to college to play baseball (as well as hopefully get an education at the same time)? I'll throw out 5%. This site IMO was never how to get your kid signed by a P5 school (usual comment was if you are good enough for P5 - then P5 will find you). This site - again IMO - was about the other 95% (assuming my wild guess 5% is correct).
I'm not sure why you went into a rant about playing P5. I didn't mention P5. I asked who tries to get into a poor college baseball program at any level? The only reason to do so would be to use baseball to get into the college for it's high end academics. Brown would be a good example.
I believe most college baseball prospects don't put perennial losers on their list unless it's an high academic priority or a family legacy college. Ultimately some players might decide they want to play so badly they will play anywhere. Check out Coppin State about ten plus years ago until the new coach turned them around a little. They're now competitive in conference.
I will agree with Adbono. Been here under a different name but had to change because I could not login under old one when job changed for 16 years. When I came here, my middle son was almost at the bottom because he was going to a mid major. I never heard anything but D1 mentioned on here until just recently. Not saying it was the right way but it was the way it was.
@RJM posted:I'm not sure why you went into a rant about playing P5. I didn't mention P5. I asked who tries to get into a poor college baseball program at any level? The only reason to do so would be to use baseball to get into the college for it's high end academics. Brown would be a good example.
I believe most college baseball prospects don't put perennial losers on their list unless it's an high academic priority or a family legacy college. Ultimately some players might decide they want to play so badly they will play anywhere. Check out Coppin State about ten plus years ago until the new coach turned them around a little. They're now competitive in conference.
He was talking about you? 🤷
@Dadbelly2023 posted:He was talking about you? 🤷
Yes, he pretty much was.
@RJM posted:Who is looking at these program? Not players who care about winning. Granted some players will use the baseball program to get into the college. Once in caring about playing is a toss up.
I'm not sure you understood my post. If you did are you suggesting that no one is looking or should be looking at 100 D1 baseball programs which make up the bottom third? May want to get off your high horse, thinking that only players that don't care about winning would consider these 100 institutions.
Anyway, my point was and is, not every coach is looking at every decision as a life or death decision, and feeding their family and paying their mortgage depends on it. It's a cliche saying that isn't applicable.
@nycdad posted:I'm not sure you understood my post. If you did are you suggesting that no one is looking or should be looking at 100 D1 baseball programs which make up the bottom third? May want to get off your high horse, thinking that only players that don't care about winning would consider these 100 institutions.
Anyway, my point was and is, not every coach is looking at every decision as a life or death decision, and feeding their family and paying their mortgage depends on it. It's a cliche saying that isn't applicable.
Maybe not every decision. But the most important decisions a coach makes is about how to win and keep his job or move up to a better one. Would you expect a coach to care more about your kid that feeding his family?
And yes, there are some baseball programs so irrelevant to the university as long as the coach doesn’t commit a crime he has a job.
If someone chose a lower-ranked program regardless of the division, there could be many reasons to go that route. Sometimes, you can catch a program on the rise. Sometimes, one player can turn a program around in the other direction. Sometimes, the ugly duckling turns into a beautiful swan.
There Is risk with any decision that might be made regardless of how prestigious (or lack thereof) a program is. I do agree that our site tends to focus on D1 and pro prospects.
I wish infielddad would post in this thread. His son, from California, was an All-American at Trinity University in Texas. His team was a regional qualifier for the D3 College World Series. Was drafted by the Blue Jays and saw his career cut short due to a shoulder injury. His son is now a high school athletic director based in no small part to the education he received at Trinity and his strong sports background. Both of them are now working to see the grandson succeed at baseball and in life.
Well. Theres a fair amount of busting down and self assuredness here. But mostly I just pop the noise filter and learn and help where I can
Oh yeah. Infielddad. I know him. He was the guy who mocked me when i was trying to prop up a kid. Something like no infielder at any level of D3 or naia throws just upper 70s. Case in point
Cheers.
There’s a big difference between catching a program on the rise than choosing a perennial loser. There are times you can see a incoming coach has been a success turning around a lower level program and is likely to do the same at his new destination.
@RJM posted:There’s a big difference between catching a program on the rise than choosing a perennial loser. There are times you can see a incoming coach has been a success turning around a lower level program and is likely to do the same at his new destination.
All that is true. However, turning around a program that is a perennial loser is a process. One exceptional player doesn’t do it. It takes a few good recruiting classes stacked on top of one another. Typically it’s a 3-5 year time frame.
@adbono posted:All that is true. However, turning around a program that is a perennial loser is a process. One exceptional player doesn’t do it. It takes a few good recruiting classes stacked on top of one another. Typically it’s a 3-5 year time frame.
Exactly. Then the player runs the risk of that coach leaving to jump up another level. My son chose a coach who turned a mid major and a P5 into winners. He left in the middle of my son’s college experience for a lot of money to attempt to return a former perennial powerhouse to glory.
My son didn’t like the new coach. But that coach was fast tracking from top ranked program assistant to head coach to ranked program coach.
I hope no one from this region takes this as an insult. My son also isn’t from a baseball hotbed. But where would any coach on the rise prefer to coach and recruit? The Midwest or in a Southern or Western baseball hot bed? If a program is on the rise in a less than ideal location for recruiting you run the risk of the coach not being there by the time you graduate.
Adbono;
Time for the Perspective College player to list his priorities.
#1 His future life career and College major.
#2 The baseball program, Can I play on this team based on my skills and game experiences? Has one of the Coaches evaluate my tools.
#3 Do I have friend playing on this team? What are his opinion of my chances of playing on the 25 player roster.
#4 How strong is the baseball program in the Athletic Director's policy. How does the Baseball Coach select his new players? Pro scout, showcases, personal contacts, camps.
#5 How many current players have a Athletic scholarship?
#6 As a right handed hitter, what is the distance to Left Field fence and does the wind blow out? "self assurance" is the key to playing.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Adbono;
Time for the Perspective College player to list his priorities.
#1 His future life career and College major.
#2 The baseball program, Can I play on this team based on my skills and game experiences? Has one of the Coaches evaluate my tools.
#3 Do I have friend playing on this team? What are his opinion of my chances of playing on the 25 player roster.
#4 How strong is the baseball program in the Athletic Director's policy. How does the Baseball Coach select his new players? Pro scout, showcases, personal contacts, camps.
#5 How many current players have a Athletic scholarship?
#6 As a right handed hitter, what is the distance to Left Field fence and does the wind blow out? "self assurance" is the key to playing.
Bob
That is a very good list. I don't see how anyone can determine #4 and #5.
I was looking at the D1 transfer portal at a particular school and noticed that they had 10 players listed in the transfer portal. However, only 5 are players that I found on their perfect game commitment list over the past five years. I assume that some of these other players were "walk on" players that were at some point on the roster?
@Ster posted:That is a very good list. I don't see how anyone can determine #4 and #5.
I was looking at the D1 transfer portal at a particular school and noticed that they had 10 players listed in the transfer portal. However, only 5 are players that I found on their perfect game commitment list over the past five years. I assume that some of these other players were "walk on" players that were at some point on the roster?
All of Bob’s posts contain good info. To determine the answers to #4 & #5 you will have to talk to people in the program and ask them. None of that is proprietary information. But it’s also not likely to be offered to you if you don’t ask. Anyone on the coaching staff can provide that information. Players in the program can also answer those questions. Former players can too. It’s very difficult to find ALL the information you want online. You have to talk to people to get the blanks filled in.
Adbono
The Perspective player and family should visit a practice and or games. During BP Interact with the parents, the “red shirts “, radio announcer and the scorekeeper. Does the AD attend the baseball games?
At the end of 3 hours you will have the info.
Bob
@Consultant posted:Adbono
The Perspective player and family should visit a practice and or games. During BP Interact with the parents, the “red shirts “, radio announcer and the scorekeeper. Does the AD attend the baseball games?
At the end of 3 hours you will have the info.Bob
Yes sir! 100% correct.
I don't know how that happens. How would you know parents or redshirts? How would you get to scorekeeper or announcer? All of those are not available at D1 or even decent size juco's. Getting to interact with others takes a lot of work and I don't see it happening at games very much. We found people that we knew someone who knew them or someone who played travel ball with them and talked to those parents and players. I'm wondering what information you would ask the announcer and radio guy because I can't even imagine talking to them much less asking them anything. I also can't imagine them giving you legit information since they are normally employees of school. I also never talked to a redshirt because I assumed they were either hurt or they were upset they were redshirted.
We did talk to pitchers if they were behind home plate. They would talk with no reservations.
@Ster posted:That is a very good list. I don't see how anyone can determine #4 and #5.
I was looking at the D1 transfer portal at a particular school and noticed that they had 10 players listed in the transfer portal. However, only 5 are players that I found on their perfect game commitment list over the past five years. I assume that some of these other players were "walk on" players that were at some point on the roster?
Some kids are not on PG commitment list but on PBR or vice versa (for example my kid did not tell PG but told the local PBR rep...PG was for the most part a waste of money IMO for my Minnesota kid...I definitely could be wrong about that opinion too).
A couple of ways to get info is to seek out kids (or most likely your kid seek out but tread lightly) thru instagram (my kid did this with a school he was interested in and had some very early contact with) or attend a camp (usually there are kids from the team past or present working the camp). If you want to get some most likely biased dirt then seek out the kids that are/were in the transfer portal or the roster in the past and are no longer there. It requires a little online work but often can find kids new teams and figure out a way to maybe do a direct message or find out info thru other means. You can also sometimes get some dirt about programs from JUCO coaches (that either send kids from JUCO > the school or take their drop downs). Yet another way is to seek out info thru your travel programs alumni or teammates of alumni...definitely 7 degrees of baseball separation in the college baseball world...
We developed a relationship with a coach who had no spot for my son but liked him (and me). He gave us a bunch of very useful info on programs that were recruiting my kid and that he was considering.
Lots of ways to sleuth out info but just require varied amounts of work or connecting...most people here feel like it is worth some work to try to get their kids to a place that they might have a better chance of success. I know that I did...there were a couple of programs that I never mentioned to my kid and would have definitely told him about any big warts or other issues I potentially saw at that program.
@PitchingFan posted:I don't know how that happens. How would you know parents or redshirts? How would you get to scorekeeper or announcer? All of those are not available at D1 or even decent size juco's. Getting to interact with others takes a lot of work and I don't see it happening at games very much. We found people that we knew someone who knew them or someone who played travel ball with them and talked to those parents and players. I'm wondering what information you would ask the announcer and radio guy because I can't even imagine talking to them much less asking them anything. I also can't imagine them giving you legit information since they are normally employees of school. I also never talked to a redshirt because I assumed they were either hurt or they were upset they were redshirted.
We did talk to pitchers if they were behind home plate. They would talk with no reservations.
What Bob described would be impractical at a SEC game that has 7000 spectators. But it’s very practical advice for almost anywhere else. I have literally done everything he mentioned. At JuCo games, at D1 mid major games, and at D2 & D3 games. Players are always approachable whether they are in the stands (injured, redshirted, or charting pitches) or just milling about the ballpark. Most parents are also more than happy to talk about what they know. And yes, I have also spoken to game announcers and radio broadcast guys. You can get a lot of information at most baseball games if you try.
I just can't imagine it at a D1 game or even at most juco games I have been to unless you are there real early or after the game. I must admit never been to D2, D3, or NAIA games. I've talked to parents but I found 2 types of parents and even see it today at our games. The parent who thinks everything is always great no matter what. They usually do not even know what is happening behind the scenes and their kids don't tell them anything. There is also the parents who are disgruntled. Very few parents are realistic about what is going on in the program and willing to talk to anyone about it if it is not good.
@PitchingFan, your characterization of types of parents is pretty accurate. But it’s not hard to figure out which type you are talking to and there are usually some that have a baseball background of sorts. Those are the ones I try to talk to. Actually JuCo games are the easiest of all to talk to players & parents. Before, during, and after the game.
Adbono;
The SEC would be a challenge, however we could achieve our goals. They have a special parents section, a special scouts section.
Since I know the scouts, I would start with the scouts.They all would be interested in Coaching our American teams to Australia.
Years ago, I have broadcasted pro games the local announcer would be interesting.He has a background on each player.
The Scorekeeper would like my story of the Australian scorekeepers with 5 different color pens. The "red shirts" always sit together and are open to personal questions and Summer League opportunities.
Bob
Bob, you don’t have to convince me. I agree with you.
@Consultant posted:Adbono
The Perspective player and family should visit a practice and or games. During BP Interact with the parents, the “red shirts “, radio announcer and the scorekeeper. Does the AD attend the baseball games?
At the end of 3 hours you will have the info.Bob
I attended games, chatted up a parent and asked, “How did your son end up here?” By the time they finish you will know everything you want to know about the program.
I came away with “Go where you’re loved” from asking a NC State dad if UNC also recruited his son. He responded, “UNC showed interest. NC State showed love. You go where you’re loved.” The kid was starting in right as a freshman.
@Ster posted:I think that I can add some insight to the Stacking academic scholarship question and why it is different from school to school.
This section of the D1 manual includes the 8/1/20 changes that exempted more types of institutional aid (including need-based ) from baseball's 11.7 scholarship limit.
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@MidAtlanticDad posted:This section of the D1 manual includes the 8/1/20 changes that exempted more types of institutional aid (including need-based ) from baseball's 11.7 scholarship limit.
Thank you for sharing that. I believe that the key to stacking academic scholarships or not is found in (Section b) of the NCAA code where it states, "A nondiscretionary institutional merit-based award...."
If it is an academic scholarship that is awarded to all students who meet a specific criteria ie.... everyone with a 30 or more ACT gets a Presidential Scholarship of $10,000, then it can be granted in addition to the Athletic scholarship for baseball. Also, if it is a state program that is nondiscretionary then it is stackable. So, if the State of Main has a program where all graduates of a Main high school with a 3.0 GPA receives a specific scholarship regardless of school that they attend, then this is stackable as well.
However, if the award is given via a subjective process in which not all enrollees at the institution are considered then it is not stackable with athletic scholarship.
This is how it was explained to me, and it appears that the code you linked above confirms that.
@adbono and @PitchingFan we actually asked if our son could talk to some of the players. Our thinking was at a game with thousands of fans, parents are too into the game to want to talk to parents of a recruit. The coaches had him talk to two of the freshman OFs, one who is 6'6" and was considered "raw" like my son and the other was the only black player on the roster. One battled hard for ABs and the other redshirted. They just chatted about their experiences and positively reinforced what he was already thinking about the team dynamics, the coaches and his ultimate decision. It was helpful because they shared perspectives very relevant to him.