It was killing me to get home today to see if this thread blew up or was getting any notice!
I started it for fun and hope it was taken in the same light.
It's obvious that Im an SEC fan. And I'm hoping that Georgia wins on Saturday but getting past Alabama may be quite an hurdle for my Bulldogs. And while the past 6yrs does bode well for the strength of our conference this year has shown a chink in our armor. Games lost that shouldn't have been and some wins against teams that held their own most of the game.
I'm glad to see that an SEC will be playing someone with the likes of Notre Dame. I grew up kinda liking the Irish and have nothing against them. I'm just glad Ohio State or USC is not in the Championship game! Those 2 teams fill entitled every year just because of who they are come preseason. Funny.
Notre Dame will come ready to play against anyone for sure and will be a great game no doubt.
YGD
6 of the top 10 in the country? Wow, that is the most I have ever heard of. The Pac10 has 2 of the top 10. That means with Notre Dame not in a conference, only one other team from all the other conferences made the top 10.
Who cares the Hawkeyes stunk this year. The game I would really like to see is the two last unbeaten teams play. I think they are both pretty equal and neither as good as Bama or Georgia. But strange things happen.
Who cares the Hawkeyes stunk this year. The game I would really like to see is the two last unbeaten teams play. I think they are both pretty equal and neither as good as Bama or Georgia. But strange things happen.
Before you start knocking Ohio State, you should check who is coaching them. He took a .500 program from last year and on probation this year and went undefeated. Obviously, he did not play an SEC schedule but I am guessing the schedule was at least as difficult as Notre Dame's. He also won two national titles (against Ohio State both times) while at Florida. People around here can honestly say wait till next year with that guy because all he does is win.
PS - IMHO, Ohio State is as big a name as any SEC school and I would put Michigan in that category as well. Those schools, if properly coached basically recruit themselves. You throw an outstanding coach like Urban Meryer on top of all that and we'll see if they can compete with the SEC.
PS - IMHO, Ohio State is as big a name as any SEC school and I would put Michigan in that category as well. Those schools, if properly coached basically recruit themselves. You throw an outstanding coach like Urban Meryer on top of all that and we'll see if they can compete with the SEC.
I'd love to argue this point with you CD but, unfortunately you're right! ARGH
I hated Meyer at Florida because I abhor the Gators (thanks to Steve Spurrier), and now he's gone to OSU. Wonderful!
YGD
I hated Meyer at Florida because I abhor the Gators (thanks to Steve Spurrier), and now he's gone to OSU. Wonderful!
YGD
quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
Those 2 teams fill entitled every year just because of who they are come preseason.
You mean like the SEC?
The SEC is severely overrated. It is the epotime of circular logic: "You play in the SEC, which means you are good, and because the SEC is good, we will rate you higher...and because SEC teams are rated higher, that means you have a tougher schedule."
It is not a coincidence that when the BCS derated the human polls, the SEC did not win the championship...then when they put more emphasis on them, they started a streak.
quote:Originally posted by PGStaff:
6 of the top 10 in the country? Wow, that is the most I have ever heard of.
Well, there was a particular voter in last year's final poll that put a seventh-place SEC team in the top ten to guarantee an all-SEC final.
I live in Big10 country and am aware of Ohio State and Michigan. Does anyone really believe this was a strong year for the Big 10? Also, please check out the Bowl records from the past severeral years. And who said anything bad about Ohio State? I just said it would be great if they played the other unbeaten team... Notre Dame. I can't be the only one that thinks Georgia or Alabama would beat both.
I have no problem seeing the obvious. When one conference wins 6 consecutive national championships there is reason to pick them for number 7. Maybe the voters notice little things like that, too. How can a conference that has produced 6 straight national champions be over rated?
I have no problem seeing the obvious. When one conference wins 6 consecutive national championships there is reason to pick them for number 7. Maybe the voters notice little things like that, too. How can a conference that has produced 6 straight national champions be over rated?
quote:Originally posted by Matt13:quote:Originally posted by YoungGunDad:
Those 2 teams fill entitled every year just because of who they are come preseason.
You mean like the SEC?
The SEC is severely overrated. It is the epotime of circular logic: "You play in the SEC, which means you are good, and because the SEC is good, we will rate you higher...and because SEC teams are rated higher, that means you have a tougher schedule."
It is not a coincidence that when the BCS derated the human polls, the SEC did not win the championship...then when they put more emphasis on them, they started a streak.
Yep. And every year, the overrated SEC gets awarded better bowl games than it deserves, and other conferences prove how overrated the SEC is by beating them handily.
That's why it's a travesty that the SEC will again get an automatic bid into the national championship game this year even though the SEC champ got shut out in last year's game, and SEC teams as a group are only 8-1 in BCS national championship games.
You see the same overrated dynamic in BCS games as a whole. SEC teams are a mere 14-4 over the last decade, but for some reason they keep getting bids to these games where they just aren't competitive.
The overrating extends to other bowl games, too. In fact, during the current purely coincidental, circum-logical streak of SEC national champions, SEC teams as a whole are a mere 36-19 in bowl games as a whole. If that doesn't prove they're overrated, I don't know what does. It's obvious that biased pollsters put them in games they didn't deserve.
Thank you, Matt, for bringing some logic into the discussion.
BTW, I don't care who wins. However, I think no purpose is served by pretending the SEC's recent dominance is a fluke. I also believe we should give Notre Dame their due for earning their way into the title game with an undefeated season against a legit schedule.
My comments were not directed at you PG but the original post seemed to diss Ohio State. Obviously, it was not a strong year in the Big 10 but I was not making that point.
Here's my ultimate point - with the coach they have now, and the tradition they will likely always have, the SEC and everyone else could very likely be looking up at them as early as next year - regardless of strength of conference.
We saw USC go through down times until Pete Carroll came along although it is not clear how much cheating may have been involved there. It appears Notre Dame is coming back and I am certain that Ohio State is back.
College football success seems to be linked to great coaching and tradition. Where was Alabama when Mike Shula was coaching them? Where are they now with Nick Saban coaching them? Where will Ohio State be with Urban Meyer coaching them?
We'll see.
Here's my ultimate point - with the coach they have now, and the tradition they will likely always have, the SEC and everyone else could very likely be looking up at them as early as next year - regardless of strength of conference.
We saw USC go through down times until Pete Carroll came along although it is not clear how much cheating may have been involved there. It appears Notre Dame is coming back and I am certain that Ohio State is back.
College football success seems to be linked to great coaching and tradition. Where was Alabama when Mike Shula was coaching them? Where are they now with Nick Saban coaching them? Where will Ohio State be with Urban Meyer coaching them?
We'll see.
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Being a Oregon State Beaver fan I can't believe it that my single finger typing this is actually following directions from my head! In defense of the Oregon Ducks (wow...lightning didn't strike!), they only lost by a FG in overtime to a very good Stanford Cardinal team (who lost to The Fighting Irish of Notre Dame by a FG in overtime). That wasn't a good game by the Ducks, since they narrowly lost, but it certainly wasn't anywhere close to the licking the Baylor Bears gave to the Kansas State Wildcats. The Wildcats looked very bad in that game.
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- "Oregon and KSU played horrible when they had their chance."
Being a Oregon State Beaver fan I can't believe it that my single finger typing this is actually following directions from my head! In defense of the Oregon Ducks (wow...lightning didn't strike!), they only lost by a FG in overtime to a very good Stanford Cardinal team (who lost to The Fighting Irish of Notre Dame by a FG in overtime). That wasn't a good game by the Ducks, since they narrowly lost, but it certainly wasn't anywhere close to the licking the Baylor Bears gave to the Kansas State Wildcats. The Wildcats looked very bad in that game.
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I won't go as far as to say the SEC is overrated but it is VERY top heavy. The top 5 teams in the SEC would at the very least compete for the top spot the other conferences - they are that good. But the flip side is the bottom end is horrible. So top to bottom I can't see the SEC as being "the best" but a very good conference with the best top half.
Missouri, Tennessee, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Arkansas and Auburn went a combined 25 - 47 overall. These teams would struggle to compete in most conferences. Texas AM finished in the bottom four in the 2011 Big 12 and then comes into the SEC and finishes in the middle. Granted they got a great young QB but the rest of the team was still there last year. So you really have to consider these things when you talk about the best conference and with how poorly this group is I can't say the SEC is the best. Great top half but overall that bottom kills them.
Top to bottom I think the best conference is the Big 12. Kansas really hurts my argument but every conference has their floor mat. You put Baylor and WVU in the SEC and they finish better the bottom half of the SEC and both of those teams are terrible (it pains me to say that as a WVU fan). Iowa State always has an upset every year which is more than you can say for Kentucky who is lucky to still be on the field in the second half in most games.
As for Ohio State I've always hated them for some reason but I like Urban Meyer so that might change over the next few years. The Big 10 is a vastly overrated conference for the past few years and you can look at their bowl record for that proof. But if they can get Meyer to stay and other schools hire coaches who use the spread I think all that will change and they will get more competitive with other conferences. Watching the OSU / Michigan game this weekend it struck me as funny to watch this evolution of offenses that SHOULD affect the rest of the Big 10. The Big 10 is a historically I formation / single back 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense which is why it struggles. It requires BIG linemen and they don't match up as well with the athletic ones that teams like the SEC uses. But Michigan under Rich Rodriguez was moving towards the spread because he runs it very well until he got fired. Here comes Brady Hoke who is from the old school Big 10 who will probably go back to the I / single back. OSU was the I / single back until this year when Meyer started putting the spread in. So watching the game you could see where Michigan is running aspects of the spread because that is what their kids know with a sprinkling of I / single back and then OSU was just the opposite. Give it about 2 or 3 years and OSU will be dominating the Big 10 with Meyer's spread.
As for Notre Dame they earned the right to play for the national championship. What is the one requirement to play in the NC? You have to win your games and they did. There's no requirement that says you have to win them all by a certain margin or anything like that. If you play a competitive schedule and you win then you deserve to play there. Once you have a loss then you put it in the hands of the computers / sports writers and you hope for the best. If they get blown out then they get blown out. I think Notre Dame's defense will do well against Alabama / Georgia but their offense is going to struggle. The SEC will pick up another national championship but it will be closer than most think. The BCS is scared to death that there is going to be 3 or 4 teams that will eventually be undefeated from the major conferences - so who do you go with then?
Also, it looks like Penn State might just weather the storm of the Sandusky scandel by finishing 8 - 4 with a good group of young talent coming back. The recruits will start coming back because of this year's success. I'm happy for those players / coaches who stuck it out and made this season happen.
Just my two cents.
Missouri, Tennessee, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Arkansas and Auburn went a combined 25 - 47 overall. These teams would struggle to compete in most conferences. Texas AM finished in the bottom four in the 2011 Big 12 and then comes into the SEC and finishes in the middle. Granted they got a great young QB but the rest of the team was still there last year. So you really have to consider these things when you talk about the best conference and with how poorly this group is I can't say the SEC is the best. Great top half but overall that bottom kills them.
Top to bottom I think the best conference is the Big 12. Kansas really hurts my argument but every conference has their floor mat. You put Baylor and WVU in the SEC and they finish better the bottom half of the SEC and both of those teams are terrible (it pains me to say that as a WVU fan). Iowa State always has an upset every year which is more than you can say for Kentucky who is lucky to still be on the field in the second half in most games.
As for Ohio State I've always hated them for some reason but I like Urban Meyer so that might change over the next few years. The Big 10 is a vastly overrated conference for the past few years and you can look at their bowl record for that proof. But if they can get Meyer to stay and other schools hire coaches who use the spread I think all that will change and they will get more competitive with other conferences. Watching the OSU / Michigan game this weekend it struck me as funny to watch this evolution of offenses that SHOULD affect the rest of the Big 10. The Big 10 is a historically I formation / single back 3 yards and a cloud of dust offense which is why it struggles. It requires BIG linemen and they don't match up as well with the athletic ones that teams like the SEC uses. But Michigan under Rich Rodriguez was moving towards the spread because he runs it very well until he got fired. Here comes Brady Hoke who is from the old school Big 10 who will probably go back to the I / single back. OSU was the I / single back until this year when Meyer started putting the spread in. So watching the game you could see where Michigan is running aspects of the spread because that is what their kids know with a sprinkling of I / single back and then OSU was just the opposite. Give it about 2 or 3 years and OSU will be dominating the Big 10 with Meyer's spread.
As for Notre Dame they earned the right to play for the national championship. What is the one requirement to play in the NC? You have to win your games and they did. There's no requirement that says you have to win them all by a certain margin or anything like that. If you play a competitive schedule and you win then you deserve to play there. Once you have a loss then you put it in the hands of the computers / sports writers and you hope for the best. If they get blown out then they get blown out. I think Notre Dame's defense will do well against Alabama / Georgia but their offense is going to struggle. The SEC will pick up another national championship but it will be closer than most think. The BCS is scared to death that there is going to be 3 or 4 teams that will eventually be undefeated from the major conferences - so who do you go with then?
Also, it looks like Penn State might just weather the storm of the Sandusky scandel by finishing 8 - 4 with a good group of young talent coming back. The recruits will start coming back because of this year's success. I'm happy for those players / coaches who stuck it out and made this season happen.
Just my two cents.
It literally PAINS me that Meyer is at Ohio State. Over the past few years a small handful of talent here in the southeast has been recruited to schools like OSU, ND, Michigan, etc. But Meyer is a big name with a big winning resume that will recruit this area much harder going forward and with that fact along with the others mentioned above he will certainly make them a team to contend with. But to me that's what makes good college football. I love parity. Always have.
But I still can't stand Ohio State! LOL. I worked with a guy who was a HUGE Buckeye fan and every year would run his mouth how they were going to dominate college football. We all just sat back and waited until the National Championship came along to do our talking. LOL.
Matt, when you win the past 6 National Championships no one can say that that particular conference is overrated. If we had won say only 1 in the past 6yrs and I came on here blabbing about the SEC then I would certainly deserve being tar and feathered. LOL. But until proven wrong otherwise the SEC definitely is in the drivers seat of being the very best in college football - for now.
But I still can't stand Ohio State! LOL. I worked with a guy who was a HUGE Buckeye fan and every year would run his mouth how they were going to dominate college football. We all just sat back and waited until the National Championship came along to do our talking. LOL.
Matt, when you win the past 6 National Championships no one can say that that particular conference is overrated. If we had won say only 1 in the past 6yrs and I came on here blabbing about the SEC then I would certainly deserve being tar and feathered. LOL. But until proven wrong otherwise the SEC definitely is in the drivers seat of being the very best in college football - for now.
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I think I worked with the same guy YGD. Pregnant Paul of Pickerington? For every lunch two 'All Chili Burrito Deluxe' at the Skyline Chili® on Cross Creeks Boulevard? That Pete?
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- "I worked with a guy who was a HUGE Buckeye fan and every year would run his mouth how they were going to dominate college football."
I think I worked with the same guy YGD. Pregnant Paul of Pickerington? For every lunch two 'All Chili Burrito Deluxe' at the Skyline Chili® on Cross Creeks Boulevard? That Pete?
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quote:Give it about 2 or 3 years and OSU will be dominating the Big 10 with Meyer's spread.
Already are. 12-0, 8-0.
Coach 2709,
Are you seriously proposing that the Big 12 is the best conference this year? Does the entire Big 12 have a single non-conference win over a ranked opponent?
If your only support is Texas A&M's improvement this year, I think you're cherry picking your data to make the Big 12 look good.
Yes, aTm did do better this year than last, but last year was an aberration. They were a 7-6 team that outscored their opponents by 140 points over the course of the season, more than ten points per game. They couldn't finish games, but all their losses were close and to ranked teams in games they led in the fourth quarter. They could have been one of the best 7-6 teams ever. Add in possibly the first frosh Heisman winner, and it's no surprise they won a few more games, especially since they played four of the worst SEC teams.
So, what's your explanation for Missouri's decline? Other than Ok State beating them by 3 TD's in 2011, nobody else beat them by more than 10 points last year. They move to the SEC, four teams beat them by 3 TD's or more, and their conference record drops to 2-6. Ask them how much easier the SEC is than the Big 12.
Oh, and BTW, last year Missouri beat Texas A&M in College Station. This year, Texas A&M mauled the Tigers in Columbia. That 36 point swing had nothing to do with the relative strength of conferences.
Are you seriously proposing that the Big 12 is the best conference this year? Does the entire Big 12 have a single non-conference win over a ranked opponent?
If your only support is Texas A&M's improvement this year, I think you're cherry picking your data to make the Big 12 look good.
Yes, aTm did do better this year than last, but last year was an aberration. They were a 7-6 team that outscored their opponents by 140 points over the course of the season, more than ten points per game. They couldn't finish games, but all their losses were close and to ranked teams in games they led in the fourth quarter. They could have been one of the best 7-6 teams ever. Add in possibly the first frosh Heisman winner, and it's no surprise they won a few more games, especially since they played four of the worst SEC teams.
So, what's your explanation for Missouri's decline? Other than Ok State beating them by 3 TD's in 2011, nobody else beat them by more than 10 points last year. They move to the SEC, four teams beat them by 3 TD's or more, and their conference record drops to 2-6. Ask them how much easier the SEC is than the Big 12.
Oh, and BTW, last year Missouri beat Texas A&M in College Station. This year, Texas A&M mauled the Tigers in Columbia. That 36 point swing had nothing to do with the relative strength of conferences.
The difference between Missouri / Texas AM this year versus last year is called graduation / early entry to NFL and a new head coach for A&M. Missouri lost several key players from last year and didn't replace them with quality players. Chase Gabbert was a pretty darn good quarterback but he left and the guy who took over wasn't as good.
Kevin Sumlin replaced Mike Sherman as head coach at A&M and as we see with OSU a new coach can mean a world of difference. Sumlin is an up and coming head coach who will probably do some really good things.
These two reasons are why there was such a huge change in game outcomes for these two teams.
Do you know what the best 7-6 team in the nation is? A 7-6 team that lost 6 games. That's a moral victory that tries to make you feel good about yourself when you fail to do your job. Make certain changes - new coach / QB - and now you are able to win whereas you couldn't before. Those changes made A&M competitive in the SEC just like losing a lot of good players hurt Missouri going into the SEC. If Missouri can reload they will compete in the SEC.
The top half of the SEC has phenomenal athletes and that is why they are so much better than everyone else. I wouldn't be surprised if Alabama, Georgia, LSU and Florida would go undefeated in other conferences if they didn't play each other. That's not the question or issue. I think we all agree that these four schools are awesome. The issue is the rest of the conference is horrible and that is why the SEC isn't the best. It's a really good conference and I'm not saying it's terrible but it's not the best because the bottom half is terrible.
Do you think the bottom schools like Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Auburn would compete in the Big 12? I don't thik so - they would still be at the bottom. But you put West Virginia, Baylor and Iowa State in the SEC they finish in the middle because they are going to beat those four SEC teams I just mentioned but they would lose to Alabama, Georgia, LSU and Florida. Kansas would compete with the bottom four of the SEC and be for some really ugly games.
Top to bottom the Big 12 is a better conference than the SEC.
Top four or five schools nobody is in the same league as the SEC.
Bottom four or five schools SEC has some of the worst teams in the nation in the major conferences.
That's not cherry picking any kind of data - those are defensible arguments.
Kevin Sumlin replaced Mike Sherman as head coach at A&M and as we see with OSU a new coach can mean a world of difference. Sumlin is an up and coming head coach who will probably do some really good things.
These two reasons are why there was such a huge change in game outcomes for these two teams.
Do you know what the best 7-6 team in the nation is? A 7-6 team that lost 6 games. That's a moral victory that tries to make you feel good about yourself when you fail to do your job. Make certain changes - new coach / QB - and now you are able to win whereas you couldn't before. Those changes made A&M competitive in the SEC just like losing a lot of good players hurt Missouri going into the SEC. If Missouri can reload they will compete in the SEC.
The top half of the SEC has phenomenal athletes and that is why they are so much better than everyone else. I wouldn't be surprised if Alabama, Georgia, LSU and Florida would go undefeated in other conferences if they didn't play each other. That's not the question or issue. I think we all agree that these four schools are awesome. The issue is the rest of the conference is horrible and that is why the SEC isn't the best. It's a really good conference and I'm not saying it's terrible but it's not the best because the bottom half is terrible.
Do you think the bottom schools like Kentucky, Tennessee, Arkansas and Auburn would compete in the Big 12? I don't thik so - they would still be at the bottom. But you put West Virginia, Baylor and Iowa State in the SEC they finish in the middle because they are going to beat those four SEC teams I just mentioned but they would lose to Alabama, Georgia, LSU and Florida. Kansas would compete with the bottom four of the SEC and be for some really ugly games.
Top to bottom the Big 12 is a better conference than the SEC.
Top four or five schools nobody is in the same league as the SEC.
Bottom four or five schools SEC has some of the worst teams in the nation in the major conferences.
That's not cherry picking any kind of data - those are defensible arguments.
quote:Are you seriously proposing that the Big 12 is the best conference this year?
Big 12 was far deeper than the SEC, all but 1 bowl qualified. But the SEC is clearly stronger at the top and weaker at the bottom. Depends on how you define best.
Coach,
I understand why you don't want to focus on the six ten-win teams at the top of the SEC, but quality of the bottom teams has to be the most irrelevant measure of conference strength I have ever heard. To understand why, look at which conferences's worst three or four teams have the most wins. Depending on how many bottom dwellers you choose to count, the conferences with the most wins among the worst teams will be WAC, Big East, Big Ten, and Big 12. If that's the company you want to keep, go ahead and tell everyone how important bottom dweller cred.
You are correct in observing that, except for Kansas, nobody in the Big 12 really stinks. However, given that nobody in the Big 12 has a signature win, KState got pounded by a mediocre Baylor team, and Oklahoma got dominated at home by Notre Dame, it's also true that nobody in the Bid 12 really excels. You haven't made a case for overall strength; you've only made a case for top-to-bottom respectability.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think, "Our teams that won't play in January can beat your teams that won't play in January" sings as the new motto for the Big 12.
BTW, I'm a Mizzou fan who always rooted for Big 8/12 teams in bowl games but is seriously confused about conference loyalty at the moment since I've liked Oklahoma and Nebraska in so many bowl games over the years.
I understand why you don't want to focus on the six ten-win teams at the top of the SEC, but quality of the bottom teams has to be the most irrelevant measure of conference strength I have ever heard. To understand why, look at which conferences's worst three or four teams have the most wins. Depending on how many bottom dwellers you choose to count, the conferences with the most wins among the worst teams will be WAC, Big East, Big Ten, and Big 12. If that's the company you want to keep, go ahead and tell everyone how important bottom dweller cred.
You are correct in observing that, except for Kansas, nobody in the Big 12 really stinks. However, given that nobody in the Big 12 has a signature win, KState got pounded by a mediocre Baylor team, and Oklahoma got dominated at home by Notre Dame, it's also true that nobody in the Bid 12 really excels. You haven't made a case for overall strength; you've only made a case for top-to-bottom respectability.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think, "Our teams that won't play in January can beat your teams that won't play in January" sings as the new motto for the Big 12.
BTW, I'm a Mizzou fan who always rooted for Big 8/12 teams in bowl games but is seriously confused about conference loyalty at the moment since I've liked Oklahoma and Nebraska in so many bowl games over the years.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:quote:Are you seriously proposing that the Big 12 is the best conference this year?
Big 12 was far deeper than the SEC, all but 1 bowl qualified. But the SEC is clearly stronger at the top and weaker at the bottom. Depends on how you define best.
Deeper?
So who wins a Big 12/SEC Challenge?
Alabama 11-1 vs. K State 10-1
Georgia 11-1 vs. Oklahoma 9-2
Florida 11-1 vs. Texas 8-3
S. Carolina 10-2 vs. Ok State 7-4
LSU 10-2 vs. TCU 7-4
Texas A&M 10-2 vs. Texas Tech 7-5
MS State 8-4 vs. West Virginia 6-5
Vanderbilt 8-4 vs. Baylor 6-5
Ole Miss 6-6 vs. Iowa State 6-6
Mizzou 5-7 vs. Kansas 1-10
Watching TV on the couch: Tennessee, Auburn, Arkansas, Kentucky. Depth is not having to let these guys play.
Deeper meaning top to bottom, not ignoring your bottom. Bottom 5 in SEC had a losing record. All but one Big 12 qualified for a bowl. Top to bottom, Big 12. Strength at the top, clearly SEC.
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
BTW, I'm a Mizzou fan
My sincere condolences...
quote:Originally posted by Mizzoubaseball:quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
BTW, I'm a Mizzou fan
My sincere condolences...
Likewise, my brother.
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
Deeper meaning top to bottom, not ignoring your bottom. Bottom 5 in SEC had a losing record. All but one Big 12 qualified for a bowl. Top to bottom, Big 12. Strength at the top, clearly SEC.
You've confused "deeper" with "fewer" and turned the usual meaning of "deeper" on its head.
When I was in college we dressed about 50 for our football games (D3, serious nerd school). One year, we lost our homecoming game by 40 points to a visiting team that dressed about 100 players. If 20 of those 100 players were worse than all 50 on our team, would that have made us the deeper team? By your definition, yes. By anyone else's understanding of English, no.
The same holds true for depth of conferences.
But if you want to make up a pretend language in which it isn't nonsensical to say that a conference with one Top Ten team and three Top Twenty teams is "deeper" than a conference with three Top Five teams and six Top Ten teams, you go right ahead. If it makes you feel better about your conference (and formerly and still sort of my conference, too), I won't interfere with this means of consoling yourself that there aren't many or any really good teams in the conference this year (jury is still out on OU and KSU).
You're simply talking deep in the sheer count of teams. I was talking deep in the percentage of total teams. You understand the point....top to bottom. I'll try to use swamp english from now on. Appreciate the correction. 
PS. It's not my conference. Mine is the Big 10, which is not deep by either of our definitions. But I don't much care as long as Nebraska gets to the Rose Bowl.
PS. It's not my conference. Mine is the Big 10, which is not deep by either of our definitions. But I don't much care as long as Nebraska gets to the Rose Bowl.
Swampboy, if you're not one already, you should be a Lawyer. LOL
quote:Originally posted by Tx-Husker:
You're simply talking deep in the sheer count of teams. I was talking deep in the percentage of total teams. You understand the point....top to bottom. I'll try to use swamp english from now on. Appreciate the correction.
PS. It's not my conference. Mine is the Big 10, which is not deep by either of our definitions. But I don't much care as long as Nebraska gets to the Rose Bowl.
I'm still kind of partial to Nebraska, so that would be fine with me.
Great Thread!! Must admit I drink the Notre Dame KoolAid as my 2 oldest sons are recent grads. With that being said a few factoids:
Strength of Schedule as of Nov 24th per Sagarin:
ND 30
Bama 39 (Games against: Western Kentucky, Florida Atlantic, Western Carolina, Auburn will do that to a SOS!)
Georgia 42 (Buffalo, Florida Atlantic, Georgia Southern, Auburn)
ND's defense is outstanding and offense a work in progress. While Bama or Georgia will be favorites in the NC game it would be a mistake to take the Irish lightly......they've played some "ugly" games, but they did win!
They already have accomplished something never before done: #1 in BCS ranking and #1 football team in terms of Graduation Rate, 97%. At the end of the day that's a heck of an accomplishment!
Strength of Schedule as of Nov 24th per Sagarin:
ND 30
Bama 39 (Games against: Western Kentucky, Florida Atlantic, Western Carolina, Auburn will do that to a SOS!)
Georgia 42 (Buffalo, Florida Atlantic, Georgia Southern, Auburn)
ND's defense is outstanding and offense a work in progress. While Bama or Georgia will be favorites in the NC game it would be a mistake to take the Irish lightly......they've played some "ugly" games, but they did win!
They already have accomplished something never before done: #1 in BCS ranking and #1 football team in terms of Graduation Rate, 97%. At the end of the day that's a heck of an accomplishment!
I know the Bottom of the SEC has been bashed on here but since the proverbial can of worms has been opened with this Sagarin Strength of Schedule (SOS) lets take a peek at some of these teams that had a much harder schedule than the Top 5 teams!
Missouri - SOS rank - #2
Auburn - SOS rank - #10
Kentucky - SOS rank - #18
Arkansas - SOS rank - #21
Ole Miss - SOS rank - #22
Tennessee - SOS rank #28
Auburn has certainly fell off the cliff this year. No arguments here. But lest we forget, they were the National Champions just 2 seasons ago.
So if we're going to talk about who plays who during the season and the impact of how tough teams are that ultimately shape a teams destiny by years end among other factors then I guess these (6) teams above played a tougher schedule than Notre Dame. Does this account for their lowly records at the end of the season? It has to. I mean, they're certainly not lining up Schools for the Deaf & Blind to pad their Win/Loss record!
Missouri - SOS rank - #2
Auburn - SOS rank - #10
Kentucky - SOS rank - #18
Arkansas - SOS rank - #21
Ole Miss - SOS rank - #22
Tennessee - SOS rank #28
Auburn has certainly fell off the cliff this year. No arguments here. But lest we forget, they were the National Champions just 2 seasons ago.
So if we're going to talk about who plays who during the season and the impact of how tough teams are that ultimately shape a teams destiny by years end among other factors then I guess these (6) teams above played a tougher schedule than Notre Dame. Does this account for their lowly records at the end of the season? It has to. I mean, they're certainly not lining up Schools for the Deaf & Blind to pad their Win/Loss record!
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
Coach,
I understand why you don't want to focus on the six ten-win teams at the top of the SEC, but quality of the bottom teams has to be the most irrelevant measure of conference strength I have ever heard. To understand why, look at which conferences's worst three or four teams have the most wins. Depending on how many bottom dwellers you choose to count, the conferences with the most wins among the worst teams will be WAC, Big East, Big Ten, and Big 12. If that's the company you want to keep, go ahead and tell everyone how important bottom dweller cred.
It's not that I want to NOT focus on the six ten win teams - I just don't see any point in it because they ARE some of the best in the country. The question and issue is who is the BEST CONFERENCE and if you're going to use that term then the bottom has to be factored in no matter how bad they are. What makes it tough is unless they actually play one another we don't know if team A can beat team B so it's all still speculation and best guesses. My point is that when you focus on the whole conference the Big 12 is better than the SEC. If you want to talk top half or best teams from a conference then it's the SEC and nobody is even close. I've been saying this since the beginning.
You are correct in observing that, except for Kansas, nobody in the Big 12 really stinks. However, given that nobody in the Big 12 has a signature win, KState got pounded by a mediocre Baylor team, and Oklahoma got dominated at home by Notre Dame, it's also true that nobody in the Bid 12 really excels. You haven't made a case for overall strength; you've only made a case for top-to-bottom respectability.
Yes KState and Oklahoma got beat bad when they shouldn't but Alabama got beat by a team they shouldn't have lost to in A&M. So I think that argument is a wash because it shows that conference teams will beat up on each other in every conference. It's not just the SEC that beats on each other - although they seem to beat on each other a little more. As for not making a case for overall strength I was never trying to do that. I've said since the first post that top to bottom the Big 12 is a better conference. That's all I've tried to say.
Maybe it's just me, but I don't think, "Our teams that won't play in January can beat your teams that won't play in January" sings as the new motto for the Big 12.
I don't think that's the message anybody ever tries to send for a motto. You're just focusing everything on the top half of the SEC as the best conference but you can't do that. You have to talk about the terrible bottom half too.
BTW, I'm a Mizzou fan who always rooted for Big 8/12 teams in bowl games but is seriously confused about conference loyalty at the moment since I've liked Oklahoma and Nebraska in so many bowl games over the years.
quote:Alabama 11-1 vs. K State 10-1Alabama easily
Georgia 11-1 vs. Oklahoma 9-2Toss up overall but if the real Oklahoma shows up and since I'm defending the Big 12 I will take OK
Florida 11-1 vs. Texas 8-3Florida easily
S. Carolina 10-2 vs. Ok State 7-4Great game but I will take OK State but if you have a healthy RB for SC then that might change it
LSU 10-2 vs. TCU 7-4LSU but they do have the tendency that they could choke this one
Texas A&M 10-2 vs. Texas Tech 7-5Honestly I think if they played 10 times A&M would win 6 of them. Tech has the ability to be better than what they are. To use your argument they are probably the best 7-5 team but they are still a 7-5 team
MS State 8-4 vs. West Virginia 6-5WVU although if they don't play defense (which has been a problem) it could go MSU but overall WVU is a better team
Vanderbilt 8-4 vs. Baylor 6-5Baylor is the better team but it would be a close game
Ole Miss 6-6 vs. Iowa State 6-6Iowa State in a close game
Mizzou 5-7 vs. Kansas 1-10No doubt Mizzou has this one
So IF (and that's a huge IF) it goes the way I say it does then out of those 10 games it goes 5 - 5 which shows the Big 12 is at the very least with the SEC and factor in the ones you left out that lowers the SEC. But if I'm wrong I still feel the games will be close enough that the Big 12 is much closer as a second best team to the SEC than people want to think. But it goes back to once you get past the top four teams the SEC is not that great.
I would say that this year the Pac 10 is the second best conference after the SEC. I think A&M would have been the Big 12 champion this year.
Is there a direct correlation as to why the SEC is the best conference in the country and why they have the highest starting ticket prices for their respective championship games this weekend?
Per ESPN today: according to StubHub
SEC $277
Pac-12 $47
C-USA $25
Big 10 $21
MAC $14
ACC $3
Louisville at Rutgers $33
Im just saying.
YGD
Per ESPN today: according to StubHub
SEC $277
Pac-12 $47
C-USA $25
Big 10 $21
MAC $14
ACC $3
Louisville at Rutgers $33
Im just saying.
YGD
quote:Is there a direct correlation as to why the SEC is the best conference in the country and why they have the highest starting ticket prices for their respective championship games this weekend?
Nope. Just means it's the best game btw 2 highly rated teams in the venue with seating demand higher than supply.
A&M win the big 12 this year? haha. I'm not a football fan so i could care less about SEC vs. Big 12, but cmon! They havent won the big 12 since 1998.
A&M exposed the SEC this year....end of story! A&M has only finished in the top 25 once since 1999! One time in 13 years. I'm sorry guys but there is no way A&M would have won the big 12...not even close. Here are the actual results below....they havent even come close to winning the big 12 since 1998 which was forever ago.
A&M Big 12 Standings
2011 - finished 7th out of 10
2010 - finished 5th
2009 - finished 9th
2008 - finished 10th
2007 - finished 7th
2006 - finished 4th
2005 - finished 9th
2004 - finished 5th
2003 - finished 10th
2002 - finished 9th
SEC is top heavy! Very weak on the bottom teams and have two great teams. Fact is that there are 5-6 head coaching job openings in the SEC this year. SEC is down this year, therefore the reason A&M walked in there and beat out those bottom teams and will finish 3-4th.
Trust me when i say this...me being from Texas, the mentality from the schools here was no one was worried about A&M beating them....because they havent proven it in a long time. They have however upset UT the past couple of years though....UT has been down and barely had winning seasons recently. I'm excited A&M has done well, but my argument is they would not win the big 12 this year, and if i had to guess, they probably wouldnt have finished in the top 4.
A&M exposed the SEC this year....end of story! A&M has only finished in the top 25 once since 1999! One time in 13 years. I'm sorry guys but there is no way A&M would have won the big 12...not even close. Here are the actual results below....they havent even come close to winning the big 12 since 1998 which was forever ago.
A&M Big 12 Standings
2011 - finished 7th out of 10
2010 - finished 5th
2009 - finished 9th
2008 - finished 10th
2007 - finished 7th
2006 - finished 4th
2005 - finished 9th
2004 - finished 5th
2003 - finished 10th
2002 - finished 9th
SEC is top heavy! Very weak on the bottom teams and have two great teams. Fact is that there are 5-6 head coaching job openings in the SEC this year. SEC is down this year, therefore the reason A&M walked in there and beat out those bottom teams and will finish 3-4th.
Trust me when i say this...me being from Texas, the mentality from the schools here was no one was worried about A&M beating them....because they havent proven it in a long time. They have however upset UT the past couple of years though....UT has been down and barely had winning seasons recently. I'm excited A&M has done well, but my argument is they would not win the big 12 this year, and if i had to guess, they probably wouldnt have finished in the top 4.
quote:Originally posted by Hsbaseballcoach:
A&M win the big 12 this year? haha. I'm not a football fan so i could care less about SEC vs. Big 12, but cmon! They havent won the big 12 since 1998.
A&M exposed the SEC this year....end of story! A&M has only finished in the top 25 once since 1999! One time in 13 years. I'm sorry guys but there is no way A&M would have won the big 12...not even close. Here are the actual results below....they havent even come close to winning the big 12 since 1998 which was forever ago.
A&M Big 12 Standings
2011 - finished 7th out of 10
2010 - finished 5th
2009 - finished 9th
2008 - finished 10th
2007 - finished 7th
2006 - finished 4th
2005 - finished 9th
2004 - finished 5th
2003 - finished 10th
2002 - finished 9th
SEC is top heavy! Very weak on the bottom teams and have two great teams. Fact is that there are 5-6 head coaching job openings in the SEC this year. SEC is down this year, therefore the reason A&M walked in there and beat out those bottom teams and will finish 3-4th.
Trust me when i say this...me being from Texas, the mentality from the schools here was no one was worried about A&M beating them....because they havent proven it in a long time. They have however upset UT the past couple of years though....UT has been down and barely had winning seasons recently. I'm excited A&M has done well, but my argument is they would not win the big 12 this year, and if i had to guess, they probably wouldnt have finished in the top 4.
Since you proclaim you're not a football fan, then look back over this, find all your mistakes and get back to us. It should be easy since you only posted it three times.
I didnt post it three times...I posted once then added two new paragraphs at the bottom...there was no corrections.
Also please show me where i'm wrong in anything i stated above. I'm not a football fan, the only reason I opened it was because there were four pages of nonsense on this baseball board.
Also please show me where i'm wrong in anything i stated above. I'm not a football fan, the only reason I opened it was because there were four pages of nonsense on this baseball board.
Not sure what aTm has done in the past, or if they would or wouldn't win the Big 12 this year has anything to do with what's been discussed here.
What aTm exposed was a really good defense with a strong offense can be successful...especially when they are consistent and don't turn the ball over. Who didn't know that? They would have lost 1 or 2 in the Big 12 too, too many high powered offenses week in week out that can eek out high scoring games.
What aTm exposed was a really good defense with a strong offense can be successful...especially when they are consistent and don't turn the ball over. Who didn't know that? They would have lost 1 or 2 in the Big 12 too, too many high powered offenses week in week out that can eek out high scoring games.
A&M exposed the SEC this year? I'd like to hear this one. Had Florida played A&M later in the season instead of 1st game they would have loss. End of discussion. Johnny Football has helped this team play out of its SKIN this season. He is most likely the winner of the Heisman. Alabama was cruising into another BCS title until A&M showed up and bulldogged them. They would have EASILY won the Big 12 this year. Handily. It doesn't matter what their past has been in the conference. All that matters now is how good they are NOW. It's going to be fun to watch them over the next 2-3yrs as an SEC fan.
I know of at least 3 SEC coaching jobs, but 5-7? I think the Kentucky job has been filled. Besides Auburn and Arkansas who are the other 4 you speak of?
YGD
I know of at least 3 SEC coaching jobs, but 5-7? I think the Kentucky job has been filled. Besides Auburn and Arkansas who are the other 4 you speak of?
YGD
Kentucky, Arkansas, Tennessee and Auburn....with rumors of Pinkel out at Missouri = 5. The season is not even over yet, so this thing is just getting started regarding the coaching carousel. My point earlier was someone said A&M could have won the big 12 this year easily....that wouldnt of happend.....just like they werent going to win the SEC this year. They wouldnt have beaten UT,OU,KState,Tech, Probably OK state either and maybe even TCU....they for sure wouldnt havent beaten all of them! lol
SEC is top heavy with 5 coaches getting fired this year to prove it. A&M hasnt finished higher than 4th in a decade and a half....that was my point and they will probably finish 3/4th in the SEC this year.
SEC is top heavy with 5 coaches getting fired this year to prove it. A&M hasnt finished higher than 4th in a decade and a half....that was my point and they will probably finish 3/4th in the SEC this year.
You need to stick to coaching baseball in high school Coach. lol.
Just saying
Just saying
Before anyone disses ND ... Georgia's SEC opponents had a combined record of 25-40. They played two subdivision teams and a AA team. They played one ranked team and lost 35-7.