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Thought it would be interesting to see how many teams are registered within each state, this is both JR and SR teams:

Alaska (20)
Alabama (61)
Arkansas (72)
Arizona (29)
California (37)
Colorado (111)
Connecticut (136)
District Of Columbia (2)
Delaware (11)
Florida (37)
Georgia (15)
Hawaii (44)
Iowa (15)
Idaho (84)
Illinois (147)
Indiana (46)
Kansas (77)
Kentucky (25)
Louisiana (23)
Massachusetts (157)
Maryland (44)
Maine (66)
Michigan (47)
Minnesota (318)
Missouri (155)
Mississippi (7)
Montana (47)
North Carolina (173)
North Dakota (51)
Nebraska (285)
New Hampshire (46)
New Jersey (196)
New Mexico (16)
Nevada (62)
New York (132)
Ohio (79)
Oklahoma (11)
Oregon (47)
Pennsylvania (319)
Rhode Island (17)
South Carolina (79)
South Dakota (50)
Tennessee (15)
Texas (12)
Utah (24)
Virginia (93)
Vermont (17)
Washington (125)
Wisconsin (208)
West Virginia (24)
Wyoming (32)



"Hustle, it costs you nothing, but gains you everything"

Last edited {1}
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quote:
Originally posted by TCWPreps:
quote:
Originally posted by piaa_ump:
I was not surprized to see PA still strong with the # of legion teams available....


Back in mid-late 80's, PA used to have 400-500 teams.
Travel is killing Legion very quickly in PA. The proliferation of travel teams has been huge over the past eight years.

I decided to start a team when I found out the Junior Legion (13-15) coach believes 13's should ride the bench all year earning their dues. He never put a 13 on the field all season until it became a talent issue with all the kids who departed for travel. Once in travel we never left.
quote:
Travel is killing Legion very quickly in PA. The proliferation of travel teams has been huge over the past eight years.

I decided to start a team when I found out the Junior Legion (13-15) coach believes 13's should ride the bench all year earning their dues. He never put a 13 on the field all season until it became a talent issue with all the kids who departed for travel. Once in travel we never left.


2016 played PA Junior Legion last year as a 13 and gradually worked himself into the line-up. Playing again this year. It's been a good experience (and I'm guessing cheaper both in fees and gas money).
quote:
Originally posted by JDFarmer:
quote:
Travel is killing Legion very quickly in PA. The proliferation of travel teams has been huge over the past eight years.

I decided to start a team when I found out the Junior Legion (13-15) coach believes 13's should ride the bench all year earning their dues. He never put a 13 on the field all season until it became a talent issue with all the kids who departed for travel. Once in travel we never left.


2016 played PA Junior Legion last year as a 13 and gradually worked himself into the line-up. Playing again this year. It's been a good experience (and I'm guessing cheaper both in fees and gas money).
Our travel team was only $600. The games were only an hour away. The competition was great.

I assembled a great coaching staff. The Jr Legion team had a coach with one years of experience twenty times over. The assistant thought he was Mr Baseball. He had no idea how often he was wrong. I had to listen to him at high school games.

Besides, the Jr Legion and Legion level of play in the local league was mediocre on it's best day due to the travel exodus.
Last edited by RJM
The 44 Hawaii teams are essentially intact school teams that remain together to play throughout the offseason. The school coaches also coach the Legion teams and the rosters are mostly the same as the school teams (minus a few kids who have conflicts with their football offseason programs and plus a few kids who are "trying out" for the upcoming season).
Our local legion level of play has gone down hill however there is another league just north of us that still has a high level of play but even that league is starting to feel the impact of travel.


With that said a lot of the better local kids have decided to play legion this year I predict that there with beca lot of mercy rule games....
just my opinion because i played legion years ago and loved it but travel ball did not kill legion ball. Legion Ball killed it's self. When it went to 19U and the college coaches had no reason to go, there was no reason for the better high school juniors to play. Those players got pushed back to the jr legion programs. Legion by us as JH stated has 1 team in a 40 mile area and its mostly returning college players who did not get placed for the summer and HS seniors.

Again, my opinion only
quote:
Originally posted by TCWPreps:
Changes are coming in 2015 as 19yr olds will no longer be allowed to play.
Are you familar with a saying aboout closing the barn door after the horse is gone? During the time of Legion allowing nineteen year olds to play travel took over. There are states where Legion is so decimated it will never come back or the quality of play will never come back.
quote:
Originally posted by Coach Merc:
just my opinion because i played legion years ago and loved it but travel ball did not kill legion ball. Legion Ball killed it's self. When it went to 19U and the college coaches had no reason to go, there was no reason for the better high school juniors to play. Those players got pushed back to the jr legion programs. Legion by us as JH stated has 1 team in a 40 mile area and its mostly returning college players who did not get placed for the summer and HS seniors.

Again, my opinion only


This is what happened in our area. The 19U college players dominated Sr Legion rosters pushing the rest of the high schoolers down to Jr legion.

What started a few years ago after my son was done playing was the HS coaches in the area formed a HS coaches summer league which rosters current HS players and graduating seniors could not play in this league, they had to play Sr Legion or some other travel team. I wish this summer league was available when my son played. The summer coaches league is great for those players looking to get a look from their HS coaches for the following season as well as playing in showcases.

Coach Merc is right. Legion ball is killing itself.

IMO, it's too much politics and daddy coaching these teams are the problem with Legion.
Last edited by zombywoof
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
quote:
Originally posted by TCWPreps:
Changes are coming in 2015 as 19yr olds will no longer be allowed to play.
Are you familar with a saying aboout closing the barn door after the horse is gone? During the time of Legion allowing nineteen year olds to play travel took over. There are states where Legion is so decimated it will never come back or the quality of play will never come back.


Not sure I agree. If Legion fixes what they broke, only time will tell if it can be rejuvenated. Travel has an achilles heel called High Cost and Moderate Results. Travel has developed into a perception of Must Have in your rising senior summer because of the belief that that is where the college coaches look. But coaches will look where they believe there is talent so if Legion can reshape itself to field stronger rising senior full teams, they have a much better chance of attracting the coaches, particularly in their region of play.

That may be bad news for Travel administrators looking to turn a profit or Daddy coaches looking to extend their ride with Junior, but in the end it will be good news for the economic stability of the family, and a higher likelihood of moderately talented players of lower economic resource to be found.
It's been established the coaches and scoouts go where they can see many players in a day. I dount Legion can turn that around. With the exception of going to see the jaw dropping studs, coaches and scouts won't hit Legion games until regions or states where there are several teams to watch.

The other thing is the current setup of travel places nothing but players intersted in playing college ball in front of coaches and scots. Many Legion players aren't capable of playing at the next level.

There are even parts of the country where LL is dying due to parents who want to suck the competition out of the game so no one fails and gets their feelings hurt. What filled the void? Travel.

If blue collar kids play hockey (skates are $400-600 new) and ghetto kids play AAU basketball there will always be a way for travel to work financially.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Originally posted by RedSoxFan21:
Not sure I agree. If Legion fixes what they broke, only time will tell if it can be rejuvenated. Travel has an achilles heel called High Cost and Moderate Results. Travel has developed into a perception of Must Have in your rising senior summer because of the belief that that is where the college coaches look. But coaches will look where they believe there is talent so if Legion can reshape itself to field stronger rising senior full teams, they have a much better chance of attracting the coaches, particularly in their region of play.

That may be bad news for Travel administrators looking to turn a profit or Daddy coaches looking to extend their ride with Junior, but in the end it will be good news for the economic stability of the family, and a higher likelihood of moderately talented players of lower economic resource to be found.


I’m sure it’s different in every location. But here in Virginia? Legion has played itself out. Here’s why.

Seniors who just graduated, and who have committed to play in college, many of them want to play Legion. Why? It’s laid back. They get to play with / against their buddies from school. It’s cheap. It’s local.

So this aspect right here detracts from coaches at the next level being there. The best players, the players who will be starting, are many times already committed in their plans for after high school.

Add to that the fact that, for now, 19 year olds can still play. I’ve seen kids who aren’t playing college ball (and most who never will) come back to play for their Legion team. They end up taking a roster / starting spot from a younger player who will likely play college ball.

All this combines to make many younger, GOOD players (Juniors and below) get stuck on a JR LEGION team. How good are the coaches?

I’ve seen kids playing Legion ball who didn’t make their high school teams.

The competition is so-so at best, until teams get to the State / Regional tournament.

I watched a Regional tournament a couple of years ago and at a bigger venue that was local. There was one college coach in attendance. He was local to the area. He was just there randomly when he heard about it. I spoke to some parents. All but one of the kids I spoke to them about was already committed to play somewhere in college.

And “High Cost” and “moderate results”? Depends on the quality and schedule of the travel ball in question for sure.

What are your desired “Results”? Play against the best competition? Get quality reps? Get the chance to be exposed to the next level of play and likely play in front of college coaches?

The organization I’m with now has two private workouts each Summer / Fall at two different DIV I schools. Only players in our organization are eligible. They do a combine and play games in front of the coaching staff at that college.

Our summer schedule includes stops at East Cobb and the majority of the other events are at college facilities.

Cost? Dues, uniforms and hats are less than $500 for the entire Summer. Gas and hotels not included. Still cheaper than ANY other organization (except the few fully funded teams) that I know of.

If a parent / player is looking for a travel organization or coach to get their kid into college, they’ll likely be waiting a while. Even the best organizations, where coaches have relationships with college programs, it’s not like they have personal relationships with 100 different programs. It doesn’t work like that.

Legion here has become stale. Last year I was asked to coach the JR Legion team. I couldn’t commit, since I was taking my travel team to East Cobb. I ended up helping. One of the better players in our borders was CUT from the team. It wasn’t because of attitude, or ability. It was because of the “buddy” system. Even the kids on the team wanted to know why he didn’t make it.

The better players are playing travel in this area, period. The ones who can’t afford it, but the kids are good? Well our organization has a few of those. No one is getting rich off the program.

Just because it’s travel, and the competition is good and the coaching is solid, doesn’t mean it has to cost thousands of dollars a season. Those “established” teams are moneymakers. Period. At the older age groups kids that are just looking for a bit more exposure often play with these teams at the big National Level tourneys (East Cobb etc). The teams encourage this. You think those kids are paying full price? The team gets a stud in the line up. It makes them look better. The kid gets more potential exposure.
quote:
You think those kids are paying full price? The team gets a stud in the line up. It makes them look better.
I know of a team from PA who wanted to up their visibility a little for their players. They went to a PG tournament with the Uptons and two future Vanderbilt recruits. None of them lived anywhere near PA. I found out about this when I asked a friend how his son got on their alumni list. These guys played one tournament for the team.
quote:
Originally posted by RJM:
quote:
You think those kids are paying full price? The team gets a stud in the line up. It makes them look better.
I know of a team from PA who wanted to up their visibility a little for their players. They went to a PG tournament with the Uptons and two future Vanderbilt recruits. None of them lived anywhere near PA. I found out about this when I asked a friend how his son got on their alumni list. These guys played one tournament for the team.


It's a lot more common than most think. And like you stated, they get to put that player as an "alumni" of their program. It's exposure for the kids and exposure for the program.
quote:
Originally posted by Doughnutman:
I see AZ has 29. Probably 20 of them are from Tucson. Not many play it in Phoenix.


Yeah, Legion is still pretty strong in Tucson. Geography makes it popular. Team mainly composed of a combination of 2-3 High school programs which makes it very competitive. There are some college players who play after their freshman year of college.
Registered teams as of July 30th:

Alaska (22)
Alabama (78)
Arkansas (71)
Arizona (38)
California (50)
Colorado (120)
Connecticut (136)
District Of Columbia (1)
Delaware (11)
Florida (42)
Georgia (15)
Hawaii (43)
Iowa (15)
Idaho (87)
Illinois (165)
Indiana (46)
Kansas (105)
Kentucky (26)
Louisiana (35)
Massachusetts (155)
Maryland (42)
Maine (64)
Michigan (49)
Minnesota (321)
Missouri (153)
Mississippi (9)
Montana (47)
North Carolina (165)
North Dakota (65)
Nebraska (284)
New Hampshire (45)
New Jersey (214)
New Mexico (33)
Nevada (62)
New York (126)
Ohio (80)
Oklahoma (15)
Oregon (44)
Pennsylvania (360)
Rhode Island (31)
South Carolina (78)
South Dakota (59)
Tennessee (18)
Texas (13)
Utah (47)
Virginia (94)
Vermont (17)
Washington (139)
Wisconsin (221)
West Virginia (25)
Wyoming (29)
quote:
Originally posted by TCWPreps:
Registered teams as of July 30th:

Alaska (22)
Alabama (78)
Arkansas (71)
Arizona (38)
California (50)
Colorado (120)
Connecticut (136)
District Of Columbia (1)
Delaware (11)
Florida (42)
Georgia (15)
Hawaii (43)
Iowa (15)
Idaho (87)
Illinois (165)
Indiana (46)
Kansas (105)
Kentucky (26)
Louisiana (35)
Massachusetts (155)
Maryland (42)
Maine (64)
Michigan (49)
Minnesota (321)
Missouri (153)
Mississippi (9)
Montana (47)
North Carolina (165)
North Dakota (65)
Nebraska (284)
New Hampshire (45)
New Jersey (214)
New Mexico (33)
Nevada (62)
New York (126)
Ohio (80)
Oklahoma (15)
Oregon (44)
Pennsylvania (360)
Rhode Island (31)
South Carolina (78)
South Dakota (59)
Tennessee (18)
Texas (13)
Utah (47)
Virginia (94)
Vermont (17)
Washington (139)
Wisconsin (221)
West Virginia (25)
Wyoming (29)
Why is this data important enough to post? The best baseball experience is the one that is the best for the player based on the area, not one brand or another. But as a whole, around the country I'll bet far more players are scouted out of travel than Legion.
Last edited by RJM
quote:
Why is this data important enough to post? The best baseball experience is the one that is the best for the player based on the area, not one brand or another.


I think the data is interesting. It may be very interesting next year to see if numbers go up or down in a state (maybe that data can be posted, too).

My son has never played legion ball due to the travel schedule, but I was wondering.....what will the options be for college players (after 2014) to play the summer after their freshman year if they are not placed in a summer league team?

I guess they could always take summer school classes and work out. I overheard a coversation this weekend where one college "repremanded" a player by NOT playing legion ball. He wasn't placed on a summer league team and had to work to help pay for college. Apparently his roster spot is in jeopordy.
Last edited by keewart
Legion ball is basically non existent up here. There are 2 decent Senior Legion teams that I know of, but they play most of their schedule in tournaments against the travel teams up here. The legion "league" I believe has 5 teams... One is an RBI team and they are horrible, 2 others are from out of the way areas and are just as horrible, and then the 2 teams I mentioned earlier. There may be 1 more team but I don't think so... So there's your 5 team league... Someone give me a reason why a college coach would want to go to one of those games. The 2 decent teams know enough to load their schedules up against travel teams for that very reason.

It's all but dead and gone up here in Seattle

I'm going to post the 2013 data as soon as everyone is registered to get an idea of what the participation is like.

Again, for 2012 ... these were the number of teams for ALB across the country.

Alaska (22)
Alabama (78)
Arkansas (71)
Arizona (38)
California (50)
Colorado (120)
Connecticut (136)
District Of Columbia (2)
Delaware (11)
Florida (42)
Georgia (15)
Hawaii (43)
Iowa (15)
Idaho (87)
Illinois (165)
Indiana (46)
Kansas (105)
Kentucky (26)
Louisiana (35)
Massachusetts (155)
Maryland (42)
Maine (64)
Michigan (49)
Minnesota (321)
Missouri (153)
Mississippi (9)
Montana (47)
North Carolina (165)
North Dakota (65)
Nebraska (284)
New Hampshire (45)
New Jersey (214)
New Mexico (33)
Nevada (62)
New York (126)
Ohio (80)
Oklahoma (15)
Oregon (44)
Pennsylvania (360)
Rhode Island (31)
South Carolina (78)
South Dakota (59)
Tennessee (18)
Texas (13)
Utah (47)
Virginia (94)
Vermont (17)
Washington (138)
Wisconsin (220)
West Virginia (25)
Wyoming (29)

 

What I'm seeing from this data is, where baseball players come from more than other areas of the country (CA, TX, GA, etc), Legion ball is dying. In PA there are still lot's of teams. In our area (where my kids grew up) teams were loaded with varsity bench warmers and JV players.

Originally Posted by RJM:

What I'm seeing from this data is, where baseball players come from more than other areas of the country (CA, TX, GA, etc), Legion ball is dying. In PA there are still lot's of teams. In our area (where my kids grew up) teams were loaded with varsity bench warmers and JV players.

So the Varsity bench warmers and JV players had an opportunity to work on their game then. 

I took the number of teams in each state, compared it to each state's population, and ranked the states according to number of teams per 100,000 people.

 

 

StateTeams Population Teams/100,000 
Nebraska (284)2841,855,525   15.31
Alabama (78)78731,449   10.66
North Dakota (65)65699,628    9.29
South Dakota (59)59833,354    7.08
Minnesota (321)3215,379,139    5.97
Idaho (87)871,595,728    5.45
Wyoming (29)29576,410    5.03
Maine (64)641,329,192    4.81
Montana (47)471,005,141    4.68
Wisconsin (221)2215,726,398    3.86
Connecticut (136)1363,590,347    3.79
Kansas (105)1052,885,905    3.64
New Hampshire (45)451,320,718    3.41
Hawaii (43)431,392,313    3.09
Rhode Island (31)311,050,292    2.95
Pennsylvania (360)36012,763,536    2.82
Vermont (17)17626,011    2.72
Missouri (153)1536,021,988    2.54
New Jersey (214)2148,864,590    2.41
Arkansas (71)712,949,131    2.41
Massachusetts (155)1556,646,144    2.33
Colorado (120)1205,187,582    2.31
Nevada (62)622,758,931    2.25
Washington (139)1396,897,012    2.02
North Carolina (165)1659,752,073    1.69
South Carolina (78)784,723,723    1.65
Utah (47)472,855,287    1.65
New Mexico (33)332,085,538    1.58
West Virginia (25)251,855,413    1.35
Illinois (165)16512,875,255    1.28
Delaware (11)11917,092    1.20
Virginia (94)948,185,867    1.15
Oregon (44)443,899,353    1.13
Louisiana (35)354,601,893    0.76
Maryland (42)425,884,563    0.71
Indiana (46)466,537,334    0.70
Ohio (80)8011,544,225    0.69
New York (126)12619,570,261    0.64
Kentucky (26)264,380,415      0.59
Arizona (38)386,553,255    0.58
Michigan (49)499,883,360    0.50
Iowa (15)153,074,186    0.49
Alaska (22)224,822,023    0.46
Oklahoma (15)153,814,820    0.39
Mississippi (9)92,984,926    0.30
Tennessee (18)186,456,243    0.28
Florida (42)4219,317,568    0.22
Dist of Columbia (1)1632,323    0.16
Georgia (15)159,919,945    0.15
California (50)5038,041,430    0.13
Texas (13)1326,059,203    0.05

 

I suppose there are a lot of factors at work here in addition to the plausible one RJM posited:    Size of veteran population, number and activity level of American Legion posts, local leadership, number of natural rivalries formed by similarly sized towns in close proximity to each other, availability of other baseball opportunities (only 2 of the 15 states with most concentrated legion activity have MLB franchises, whereas all of the bottom 5 do), and the degree to which local posts aspire to support their local high school teams and strengthen community bonds as opposed to nurturing future college or pro stars.  There are probably others I didn't think of, but the magnitude of the variation is remarkable (Mean = 2.57 teams per 100,000 population; standard deviation = 2.98).

Originally Posted by bballdad2016:
Originally Posted by RJM:

What I'm seeing from this data is, where baseball players come from more than other areas of the country (CA, TX, GA, etc), Legion ball is dying. In PA there are still lot's of teams. In our area (where my kids grew up) teams were loaded with varsity bench warmers and JV players.

So the Varsity bench warmers and JV players had an opportunity to work on their game then. 

The point is the person who constantly posts this information is always trying to sell us Legion is as relevant to the college process as travel ball. Only in a handful of states is this still true. And in these states it's more true for D2 and D3 ball.

Swamp ... Lack of Legion Posts does not mean the demise of Legion ball. The post I played for forty years ago is now sponsored by a business. The Post closed thirty years ago. Where my kids were raised there aren't any Legion Posts. All the teams are sponsored by businesses or town sports organizations.

 

I believe the demise of Legion ball is due to the growth of travel ball, showcases and the availability of summer travel soccer, lacrosse and basketball. 

RJM,

 

You may be right about the trends and the reasons, but I'm not sure the American Legion (I'm a member) particularly cares how relevant they are to college/pro recruiting.  

 

The primary purpose has always been about character and country and community. 

 

From the American Legion website:


"The league still stands behind the traditional values upon which it was founded in 1925. American Legion Baseball has taught hundreds of thousands of young Americans the importance of sportsmanship, good health and active citizenship. The program is also a promoter of equality, making teammates out of young athletes regardless of their income levels or social standings. American Legion Baseball has been, and continues to be, a stepping stone to manhood for millions of young men who have gone on to serve their country or community, raise families or play the sport at the highest level."


In this context, the brief mention of "play[ing] the sport at the highest level" is almost an afterthought.  Are fewer players moving from legion ball to the highest levels of the sport?  So what?  They still have 4,000 teams offering a "stepping stone to manhood."  That's good stuff.  

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