you just did a pretty big about-face on those stats, Pic!!!
Am I glad I am where I am!!!
quote:
Originally posted by goMO:
you just did a pretty big about-face on those stats, Pic!!!
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After thinking about "most" kids I altered my opinion to "fit" "most" kids.
But I stand by what I said about it depends on what kind of training and preparation the 15 year kid has had. If he has been thowing in leagues where he pitches a great deal and has been on a arm develoopment regimen for years throwing over 100+ pitches might give him some soreness but it won't fatigue his arm such that he can't throw again for the next week.
Depends on what kind of pitcher we're talking about.
...but you're right...most kids can't do 140 without worrying about ruining their arms.
140 pitches for a young kid is insane.
No trophy is worth the abuse of a young boy's arm, IMO
No trophy is worth the abuse of a young boy's arm, IMO
quote:
Big hit 15
The coach would ask you yay or nay? Interesting
Why do you find that interesting?
Some of you have asked how could a kid throw 140 pitches and have been effective. Well, obviously he wasn't/wouldn't be by that time late in the game.
But in the example I gave, which had elements of several situations I've seen...the pitcher(s) were strikeout pitchers...thus adding to their base pitch count...also on teams that made errors, adding more. And by the time they got to the 6th/7th inning, they were walking a few people, adding yet more...but hanging on and battling their way out of innings.
So yes, this situation does happen...all too often IMO.
But in the example I gave, which had elements of several situations I've seen...the pitcher(s) were strikeout pitchers...thus adding to their base pitch count...also on teams that made errors, adding more. And by the time they got to the 6th/7th inning, they were walking a few people, adding yet more...but hanging on and battling their way out of innings.
So yes, this situation does happen...all too often IMO.
Reviewing this entire thread is interesting to me. Of most interest is the number of folks who believe high pitch counts are okay, or okay in certain "must win" or "once in a lifetime" situations in high school. If I were the parent of a pitcher (I am not) the message I would take is that despite current medical information on this issue, a number of folks do consider high and even extraordinarily high counts with high school people to be justified or okay in some or most circumstances.In light of that, the options Justbaseball listed at the beginning of this thread would be very appropriate for careful evaluation.
I would also add that those high school games seem so important until your son plays in college. Then those games seem so important until your son might get a chance to play beyond college. Looking back, I am very grateful to my wife who was adamant about protecting his arm. I am equally grateful to the coaches who taught him every component of strengthening his arm, rotator cuff, etc.It was a main feature that scouts were attracted to when the draft arrived. Nothing in high school, youth leagues or Little league warrants taking an unnecessary and known risk. IMO.
I would also add that those high school games seem so important until your son plays in college. Then those games seem so important until your son might get a chance to play beyond college. Looking back, I am very grateful to my wife who was adamant about protecting his arm. I am equally grateful to the coaches who taught him every component of strengthening his arm, rotator cuff, etc.It was a main feature that scouts were attracted to when the draft arrived. Nothing in high school, youth leagues or Little league warrants taking an unnecessary and known risk. IMO.
BigHit 15
Was it the coach's decision or your decision to take him out?
Was it the coach's decision or your decision to take him out?
The only time I EVER talked to my son's coach about his pitch count was after a game during his junior summer when he threw 145 pitches. I was out of town at the time and he didn't want to tell me how many he threw because he knew I would be upset. After I calmed down a bit, I called the coach to talk to him - his first words were, 'I was wondering when you were going to call', and proceeded to apologize for letting him go so long.
I have always found this topic interesting as I never pitched in a game with a pitch count. We pitched until bad things started to happen and then were removed quickly. I hurt my arm a few times, but it was always in the 1st inning and in cold weather where I did not warm up very well.
As far as a pitch count, I don't have a clue if it is a good idea or is nonsense. I think training the arm to throw and getting it and the rest of your body into shape is more important than how many pitches you throw in a game.
I don't pay much attention to what doctors say about pitch counts, because they are worried about law suits and they also don't know what an exact pitch count should be.Most say don't throw curves until such and such an age, and be careful and don't throw sliders. If you listened to the doctors, your kid would be healthy, but he would never be very good at pitching.
I will say this: if you have not worked hard and trained your arm, you should not be pitching at all.
As far as a pitch count, I don't have a clue if it is a good idea or is nonsense. I think training the arm to throw and getting it and the rest of your body into shape is more important than how many pitches you throw in a game.
I don't pay much attention to what doctors say about pitch counts, because they are worried about law suits and they also don't know what an exact pitch count should be.Most say don't throw curves until such and such an age, and be careful and don't throw sliders. If you listened to the doctors, your kid would be healthy, but he would never be very good at pitching.
I will say this: if you have not worked hard and trained your arm, you should not be pitching at all.
Very good point as usual. Without training & proper mechanics, even 1 pitch can cause damage to his arm! 
no offense BBScout, but that was really an ignorant post...
you're right on the money when you said "I don't have a clue", at least with that post. imo, of course...
you're right on the money when you said "I don't have a clue", at least with that post. imo, of course...
quote:
Originally posted by goMO:
Even Pedro Martinez doesn't know when he's done. How's a 15yr old supposed to know??
In general, pitch counts are very useful. I don't let any of my 13U kids go more than 75 pitches, but I temper that (by maybe 10 pitches or so) based on mechanics and control, and history.
Each kid is different for sure, but 140 is just too much...
How do you know that pitch counts are useful? You say 75 pitches, but you are an expert and will temper it by 10 pitches or so. The problems in youth baseball today are bozos like you who have created a 75 pitch count and have no idea why and if it is any good or not.
In another post you say that 120 is OK and 140 is not. Are you an expert on the additional 20 pitches?
quote:
Originally posted by goMO:
I certainly don't have the stats, but how many major leaguers pitched 140 pitches in a game this year? I would venture to so few to none.
But its okay for a 15 yr old?? Come on... I understand all of Pics points, and I would agree if we were talking 100-120 pitches, not 140.
Just my opinion...
So, goMO, you have jumped the 13 year old from 75 pitches up to 120 pitches as a 15 year old. At that rate you will have the 17 year old at 170 pitches and the 19 year old at 220 pitches. Shake yourself!!
Obviously the coach doesn't care about your son's arm, just his personal satisfaction so his record could look good.
I just wish - just one time - that in situations like this the coach would not try to rationalize the abuse by saying "it was a big game" - or by saying - "the kid is strong and he felt good and looked good so I left him in".
Just once I would like to hear the truth - which is: The coach couldnt care less about the kids' arm or his future. The coach wants the trophy for his own self interested purposes.
You can argue all day about pitch counts - and about being in shape or having good mechanics.
But anyone who says 140 pitches is OK for a 15 year old should not be involved in youth baseball in any capacity IMO.
Just once I would like to hear the truth - which is: The coach couldnt care less about the kids' arm or his future. The coach wants the trophy for his own self interested purposes.
You can argue all day about pitch counts - and about being in shape or having good mechanics.
But anyone who says 140 pitches is OK for a 15 year old should not be involved in youth baseball in any capacity IMO.
I'm with Its on this one. No one can prove how many cigarettes you smoke before it produces damage but science shows it does. No one knows how many chews of tobacco before you get gum or throat cancer, but many do. How many pitches for a youth league/high school pitcher before they get arm damage? Don't know but the evidence is many do. If you know and accept there is a risk, why not minimize that risk? If you don't think it is a risk, then I guess Dr. Andrews and others are mistaken--but they are sure getting good at this TJ surgery on teens.
This very situation happened here in Texas a couple of years ago.
Readers digest version:
Very highly touted Senior pitching in an early season High School game goes to 137 pitches. Dad gets furious, pulls kid out of dugout.
Kid gets kicked off of team for that and then not showing up for practice the next day.
Kid was touted to go very high in the draft, ended up falling considerably. Had signed with OU, and attended there his freshman year.
Word on the street he is now at a local Juco.
So, a word to the wise, if this does happen to you, think twice on how you will handle it, because it can affect the rest of your sons career.
This dad had spoke with the coach before the season about pitch counts. This dad had already taken the steps to be proactive. But when the situation actually arose, he might have over-reacted a little.
Readers digest version:
Very highly touted Senior pitching in an early season High School game goes to 137 pitches. Dad gets furious, pulls kid out of dugout.
Kid gets kicked off of team for that and then not showing up for practice the next day.
Kid was touted to go very high in the draft, ended up falling considerably. Had signed with OU, and attended there his freshman year.
Word on the street he is now at a local Juco.
So, a word to the wise, if this does happen to you, think twice on how you will handle it, because it can affect the rest of your sons career.
This dad had spoke with the coach before the season about pitch counts. This dad had already taken the steps to be proactive. But when the situation actually arose, he might have over-reacted a little.
My previous post was way off base, my boy was 18 at the time and playing 9 innings plus being in great shape.
At age 15 something is wrong with his pitching anyway if 140 pitches have to be thrown in 7 innings.
should have went next to the dugout and asked the coach if the boy was alright, let him know that you are concerned.
Just my belief, but i think a good pitcher at age 15-17 in a 7 inning game should have the game wrapped up by 85 pitches, if not pull him.
At age 15 something is wrong with his pitching anyway if 140 pitches have to be thrown in 7 innings.
should have went next to the dugout and asked the coach if the boy was alright, let him know that you are concerned.
Just my belief, but i think a good pitcher at age 15-17 in a 7 inning game should have the game wrapped up by 85 pitches, if not pull him.
Kellerdad
Mr. Benoit may have over reacted in the spring of 2003. I really don't know and was not there.
Players get drafted in the positions they do for lots of reasons. A few being signability, SAT scores, grades good or bad, college scholarship, or ability. Granted, leaving his team did not help. Players go to junior college for various reasons also, sometimes so they are able to be drfted every year they are in college. Sometimes they flunk out of the 4-year school and have to start over. Sometimes they miss their girlfriend, or dove hunting or can't get a good pizza.
All I'm saying is there is a good possibility that what happened after high school, might have anyway.
Mr. Benoit may have over reacted in the spring of 2003. I really don't know and was not there.
Players get drafted in the positions they do for lots of reasons. A few being signability, SAT scores, grades good or bad, college scholarship, or ability. Granted, leaving his team did not help. Players go to junior college for various reasons also, sometimes so they are able to be drfted every year they are in college. Sometimes they flunk out of the 4-year school and have to start over. Sometimes they miss their girlfriend, or dove hunting or can't get a good pizza.
All I'm saying is there is a good possibility that what happened after high school, might have anyway.
I don't think ANY coach on here is suggesting that you pitch a kid when he is hurting. I think a coach should know his pitchers enough to be able to tell when he's done, regardless of what the pitch counter says. I'd hate to think that I have to look at a little counter to tell me when a kid is tired...I'd like to think that working with the kid all year would tell me all I needed to know by watching the game.
I don't advocate high pitch counts...but I also think that there are many factors that go into this decision. I try to think about my son (only 5 right now)...would I pitch HIM in this situation? If not, my other "boy" on the mound is done.
I don't advocate high pitch counts...but I also think that there are many factors that go into this decision. I try to think about my son (only 5 right now)...would I pitch HIM in this situation? If not, my other "boy" on the mound is done.
bbscout - I got my 75 pitch number form the AMSI, in which doctor's general agree with. I think if you cared to do any research, you'd see that 75 is about the norm for a 13 yr old.
The pitch count is a guide. Like I said, each kid is different. If you want to stretch my comments into something unreal, like 220 pitches for someone, go right ahead. You're just digging your hole deeper.
Meanwhile, I'll be on top of my pitchers, heeding the advice of the medical community, as opposed to you, who openly state that you don't know squat about it, and don't care what doctors say.
And then you jump on me. Good job.. You're just overflowing with credibility..
The pitch count is a guide. Like I said, each kid is different. If you want to stretch my comments into something unreal, like 220 pitches for someone, go right ahead. You're just digging your hole deeper.
Meanwhile, I'll be on top of my pitchers, heeding the advice of the medical community, as opposed to you, who openly state that you don't know squat about it, and don't care what doctors say.
And then you jump on me. Good job.. You're just overflowing with credibility..
quote:
Originally posted by bbscout:quote:
Originally posted by goMO:
I certainly don't have the stats, but how many major leaguers pitched 140 pitches in a game this year? I would venture to so few to none.
But its okay for a 15 yr old?? Come on... I understand all of Pics points, and I would agree if we were talking 100-120 pitches, not 140.
Just my opinion...
So, goMO, you have jumped the 13 year old from 75 pitches up to 120 pitches as a 15 year old. At that rate you will have the 17 year old at 170 pitches and the 19 year old at 220 pitches. Shake yourself!!
You did not answer about your OK'ing the 120 at 15 years of age.Did you get that from AMSI too?
goMO, Why don't you ask the doctors why there are so many more injuries today as opposed to 30 years ago when there were not any pitch counts?
I'll give you a couple of possibilities:
1. Year-around competitive baseball (no time for rest from age 9/10 and above).
2. I know many, many guys my age and above who's career was finished in HS, college, early pro ball "because my arm blew out." That is, they didn't used to be able to fix it.
1. Year-around competitive baseball (no time for rest from age 9/10 and above).
2. I know many, many guys my age and above who's career was finished in HS, college, early pro ball "because my arm blew out." That is, they didn't used to be able to fix it.
bbscout - one reason that I think is plausible is that kids pitch too much in games, and not enough in-between games. Seems like kids nowadays only play baseball when there's a game. I know one kid who only threw on Sundays, and his coach routinely made him throw over 100 pitches. He'd sit on the couch playing playstation the rest of the week, and then go out on Sundays and pitch til his arm hurt (plus his mechanics were lousy).
also, I think more kids are going to the doctor nowadays than in the past. they just either dealt with it or shut it down.
just some ideas..
also, I think more kids are going to the doctor nowadays than in the past. they just either dealt with it or shut it down.
just some ideas..
Justbaseball, I played year around and so did all the better players in So. Cal at that time. I never heard a teamate complain of pain in the upper forearm. Today, that is the pain that ends up being TJ surgery.I think most kids are resting too much, like the pitcher goMO is talking about.That kid should not be allowed to pitch at all.
Food for thought........every year in the minor leagues, the players take infield and they are throwing BB's and they do it every day for 6 months and very seldom do you see a sore arm. Now, the pitchers in many organizations are on ridiculous pitch counts of 75 in the middle of the season, and they are dropping like flys.
The doctors are scared to death of being sued and would put you on a 5 pitch count if they could.Kids need to throw every day and they need to go back to the running start windups of days past, that Maddux and Schilling use.
Food for thought........every year in the minor leagues, the players take infield and they are throwing BB's and they do it every day for 6 months and very seldom do you see a sore arm. Now, the pitchers in many organizations are on ridiculous pitch counts of 75 in the middle of the season, and they are dropping like flys.
The doctors are scared to death of being sued and would put you on a 5 pitch count if they could.Kids need to throw every day and they need to go back to the running start windups of days past, that Maddux and Schilling use.
bbscout,
I think my generation threw more and pitched less than the kids do today. Unfortunately for me I was a natural BP pitcher in HS.
As a result I threw through soreness pretty often as a teen. Usually upper arm or just a general ache around the elbow if I threw a lot of breaking pitches.
The youth injuries I saw back then seemed to come from over use during all-stars. During the regular season we had fairly high pitch counts during games because we went the distance but only pitched once a week so "injuries" had plenty of time to heal.
These days I have the kids go about 3 innings a game twice a week during the season but I'm not sure that's a better approach than going the distance once a week like we used to do.
I think my generation threw more and pitched less than the kids do today. Unfortunately for me I was a natural BP pitcher in HS.
As a result I threw through soreness pretty often as a teen. Usually upper arm or just a general ache around the elbow if I threw a lot of breaking pitches.The youth injuries I saw back then seemed to come from over use during all-stars. During the regular season we had fairly high pitch counts during games because we went the distance but only pitched once a week so "injuries" had plenty of time to heal.
These days I have the kids go about 3 innings a game twice a week during the season but I'm not sure that's a better approach than going the distance once a week like we used to do.
I agree that kids need to throw just about everyday - and assuming mechanics and training techniques are alright - they will most likely not have a problem.
On the other hand - 140 pitches for a 15 year old - anytime - anywhere - is completely out of control.
At some point - you dont need an exact pitch count - just use some common sense.
On the other hand - 140 pitches for a 15 year old - anytime - anywhere - is completely out of control.
At some point - you dont need an exact pitch count - just use some common sense.
Well, this is just the true story of a single, young pitcher who lives down the street from me.
He has played baseball year-around since he was about 10. Even when there were no games, he was at the ballpark hitting, throwing with a friend or in the bullpen constantly through the Winter. He's done the armbands and all the other strength building things that are said to be "good." He worked his tail off, improved like crazy. Had been recently topping out in low 90's. I know of no other kid that fits the profile of the good old days better than this kid. He's also a GREAT kid!
At 16, he is having TJ surgery this afternoon.
No one has any idea what the real reason is/was. By all accounts, he has good mechanics with a nice, easy arm motion. The doctors have told him that they don't know if its a buildup of use thing or not. He should be fine within a year.
Its just one case and so who knows. But I suppose its my opinion is that its just a better idea to be careful and limit the use/overuse especially when the kids are young. Seems like you need a break somewhere? Just seems to me to be the prudent thing to do.
He has played baseball year-around since he was about 10. Even when there were no games, he was at the ballpark hitting, throwing with a friend or in the bullpen constantly through the Winter. He's done the armbands and all the other strength building things that are said to be "good." He worked his tail off, improved like crazy. Had been recently topping out in low 90's. I know of no other kid that fits the profile of the good old days better than this kid. He's also a GREAT kid!
At 16, he is having TJ surgery this afternoon.
No one has any idea what the real reason is/was. By all accounts, he has good mechanics with a nice, easy arm motion. The doctors have told him that they don't know if its a buildup of use thing or not. He should be fine within a year.
Its just one case and so who knows. But I suppose its my opinion is that its just a better idea to be careful and limit the use/overuse especially when the kids are young. Seems like you need a break somewhere? Just seems to me to be the prudent thing to do.
quote:
Originally posted by itsinthegame:
I agree that kids need to throw just about everyday - and assuming mechanics and training techniques are alright - they will most likely not have a problem.
On the other hand - 140 pitches for a 15 year old - anytime - anywhere - is completely out of control.
At some point - you dont need an exact pitch count - just use some common sense.
Good post Paul. When I pitched, the coach or Mgr. would watch you closely and if you started to get up in the zone with the fastball, or started hanging the breaking ball, you were done. Those things happen when fatigue sets in. Today I watch it happen and if the kid is at only 60 pitches, they leave him in. If the kid is strong and pitching well, but he has thrown 80 pitches, they take him out.Pitch counts are for coaches and doctors, so that they will have a reason (excuse) when a pitcher hurts his arm.
If you really want to see high pitch counts, just watch college baseball when the chance at Omaha is closing in.
justbaseball,
I limit my son to three times a week throwing hard. I figure that is often enough for arm strength to increase while still giving his arm a chance to recover. It is OK if he throws on the days in between as long as it is light throwing and there is no pain.
Sounds like this kid may have thrown too many bullpens without letting the arm recover. I know that people say that you can long toss daily but I don't believe that goes for maximum effort long toss. Jaeger is one of the big proponents of long toss but the kids don't throw for all that long of a time and they only throw 3 days a week at his camps. He also shuts them down if they are feeling pain.
I limit my son to three times a week throwing hard. I figure that is often enough for arm strength to increase while still giving his arm a chance to recover. It is OK if he throws on the days in between as long as it is light throwing and there is no pain.
Sounds like this kid may have thrown too many bullpens without letting the arm recover. I know that people say that you can long toss daily but I don't believe that goes for maximum effort long toss. Jaeger is one of the big proponents of long toss but the kids don't throw for all that long of a time and they only throw 3 days a week at his camps. He also shuts them down if they are feeling pain.
Doug,
The only thing I can add to the prior post is that I have taught my youngest to know his body.
He is 15 - knows when he is done physically - and wont let any coach abuse him. He doesnt need Daddy to protect him at this point.
Dont get me wrong - he will push it - but he knows when he is done for the day - whether it be 50 pitches or 100 pitches.
And he throws about 6 days per week (whether it be bullpen,game,long toss or just warm up) - and he has never had a problem with his arm in his entire life.
The only thing I can add to the prior post is that I have taught my youngest to know his body.
He is 15 - knows when he is done physically - and wont let any coach abuse him. He doesnt need Daddy to protect him at this point.
Dont get me wrong - he will push it - but he knows when he is done for the day - whether it be 50 pitches or 100 pitches.
And he throws about 6 days per week (whether it be bullpen,game,long toss or just warm up) - and he has never had a problem with his arm in his entire life.
itsinthegame:
Are you going down to Fort Myers late this October for the WWBA? I haven't caught up with you in what seems to be a month of sunday's. Maybe it's because our schedules are so full, or you made a mistake and got a job that requires you to actually be there certain days
Are you going down to Fort Myers late this October for the WWBA? I haven't caught up with you in what seems to be a month of sunday's. Maybe it's because our schedules are so full, or you made a mistake and got a job that requires you to actually be there certain days
Very funny B.
Been meaning to call - got back a few days ago.
Will be in Jeff City, TN with K this weekend - then parents day in Rock Hill the following weekend, then Pa the weekend after that.
Cant make Ft Myers (man did Jupiter take a beating or what?)- Charleston 1st weekend in Nov. Then I will collapse.
Say hi to all - will call you for lunch soon.
Been meaning to call - got back a few days ago.
Will be in Jeff City, TN with K this weekend - then parents day in Rock Hill the following weekend, then Pa the weekend after that.
Cant make Ft Myers (man did Jupiter take a beating or what?)- Charleston 1st weekend in Nov. Then I will collapse.
Say hi to all - will call you for lunch soon.
Here are a few data points looking at our HS's stats over the past 2 years. Some have suggested that a well pitched game in HS would entail around 85 pitches, not much more. So here's some data from a pretty good pitching staff (1 pitcher now in D1, 1 in D2, 1 in JC (would be D1 if not for grades), 1 will be in D1 in two years, the other is probably done after HS).
Our pitchers (5 of them) threw 3 no-hitters and 5 1-hitters over the last 2 years. Here's how the numbers look:
* Game 1: 7 IP, 0 hits, 17 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 104 pitches
* Game 2: 7 IP, 1 hit, 14 Ks, 5 walks, 1 error, 111 pitches
* Game 3: 7 IP, 1 hit, 17 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 108 pitches
* Game 4: 7 IP, 1 hit, 12 Ks, 1 walk, 0 errors, 99 pitches
* Game 5: 7 IP, 1 hit, 11 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 108 pitches
* Game 6: 7 IP, 0 hits, 12 Ks, 4 walks, 2 errors, 104 pitches
* Game 7: 7 IP, 0 hits, 13 Ks, 3 walks, 0 errors, 98 pitches
* Game 8: 7 IP, 1 hit, 14 Ks, 3 walks, 1 error, 125 pitches
All of these performances were considered "dominant" by anyone in attendance. They involved a lot of strikeouts as these pitchers all threw in the high 80's to low 90's. Had they given up 5 or 6 hits and you can quickly get to the 140 number.
Our pitchers (5 of them) threw 3 no-hitters and 5 1-hitters over the last 2 years. Here's how the numbers look:
* Game 1: 7 IP, 0 hits, 17 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 104 pitches
* Game 2: 7 IP, 1 hit, 14 Ks, 5 walks, 1 error, 111 pitches
* Game 3: 7 IP, 1 hit, 17 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 108 pitches
* Game 4: 7 IP, 1 hit, 12 Ks, 1 walk, 0 errors, 99 pitches
* Game 5: 7 IP, 1 hit, 11 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 108 pitches
* Game 6: 7 IP, 0 hits, 12 Ks, 4 walks, 2 errors, 104 pitches
* Game 7: 7 IP, 0 hits, 13 Ks, 3 walks, 0 errors, 98 pitches
* Game 8: 7 IP, 1 hit, 14 Ks, 3 walks, 1 error, 125 pitches
All of these performances were considered "dominant" by anyone in attendance. They involved a lot of strikeouts as these pitchers all threw in the high 80's to low 90's. Had they given up 5 or 6 hits and you can quickly get to the 140 number.
quote:
Originally posted by justbaseball:
Here are a few data points looking at our HS's stats over the past 2 years. Some have suggested that a well pitched game in HS would entail around 85 pitches, not much more. So here's some data from a pretty good pitching staff (1 pitcher now in D1, 1 in D2, 1 in JC (would be D1 if not for grades), 1 will be in D1 in two years, the other is probably done after HS).
Our pitchers (5 of them) threw 3 no-hitters and 5 1-hitters over the last 2 years. Here's how the numbers look:
* Game 1: 7 IP, 0 hits, 17 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 104 pitches
* Game 2: 7 IP, 1 hit, 14 Ks, 5 walks, 1 error, 111 pitches
* Game 3: 7 IP, 1 hit, 17 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 108 pitches
* Game 4: 7 IP, 1 hit, 12 Ks, 1 walk, 0 errors, 99 pitches
* Game 5: 7 IP, 1 hit, 11 Ks, 2 walks, 2 errors, 108 pitches
* Game 6: 7 IP, 0 hits, 12 Ks, 4 walks, 2 errors, 104 pitches
* Game 7: 7 IP, 0 hits, 13 Ks, 3 walks, 0 errors, 98 pitches
* Game 8: 7 IP, 1 hit, 14 Ks, 3 walks, 1 error, 125 pitches
All of these performances were considered "dominant" by anyone in attendance. They involved a lot of strikeouts as these pitchers all threw in the high 80's to low 90's. Had they given up 5 or 6 hits and you can quickly get to the 140 number.
&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&
The results are excellent...
...that being said, based upon conversations with pitching coaches and anecdotal experience with young pitchers, we have found the the more a pitcher goes for the K's, usually the higher the pitch count.
...there are two schools of thought on this kind of thing, whereby a lot of coaches like to see more of the power/strikeout kind of pitching...what I call the rock-n-fire types...which is a perfectly legitimate philosophy.
But IMHO the pitcher who learns to hit his spots with movement on the ball and makes the batter hit his pitch based upon the natural batter's weakness in the hands and wrist, gets more outs with less pitches.
...but so much of the high school pitcher's performance is tied to the kind of team he's with. A team that has a strong defense...ie., both physical fielding and accurate throwing and defensive ability that eliminates the mental errors, which don't show up on the stat sheet; will have a tremendous impact on how well a pitcher does.
My son averaged 16.46 pitches per inning over 51 innings in high school and their defense was unbelievably bad, which means he averaged 115.22 pitches per 7 inning game. I won't say what their record was.
In summer league he played on a team that had a great defense and he averaged 14.97 pitches per inning over 71 innings of pitching...which means he was averaging 134 pitches per 9 inning game...and he was undefeated in 13 games.
...so IMHO the "team" has a great deal to do with how well the pitcher does.
I've seen my son do around 75 pitches in 7 innings of work...and he has done over 100+ on some days when he and the team are not having a good day or they have run up against a team that has them overmatched.
...but the rule of thumb from everything I learned and have discussed with other pitching coaches is that an excellent pitcher will average no more than 15 pitches per inning over the length of a season of work.
As Al Davis says with the RAYYYdas...just win, baaaby!
It is true that when a pitcher is recording lots of strikeouts there will be more pitches thrown, but walks contribute to that, too.
I once saw my son throw a seven inning complete game using only 61 pitches. He had 10 strikeouts, no walks, two hits allowed (on consecutive pitches).
He threw 50 strikes and 11 balls in 7 innings.
I once saw my son throw a seven inning complete game using only 61 pitches. He had 10 strikeouts, no walks, two hits allowed (on consecutive pitches).
He threw 50 strikes and 11 balls in 7 innings.
Will,
My son pitched complete games in 11 of 14 starts and it was never my decision to take him out. On 2 occasions he asked me what I thought between innings and I said I felt he was fine. Coach took him out any way. Do you have a point?
Will I am adding to this post.
I know that you think every parent who speaks to a coach is interfering. It just is not true. Moving into the district and to a new school, I talked to the new coach and we discussed pitch counts. He agreed and respected my opinion enough to consult me at times. Quietly, thumbs up or down. That is it. He also didn't want to play him at a position because he understood that all the scouts weren't there to watch him coach or my son play 1b. I respected that and said "coach your call whatever to help the team". Our 1bman got hurt and my son was pressed into service. He asked if it was ok with my son. I said that was between them. He played 1st and made 2nd team all state as a utility player. As the coach explained it to me he wanted pitch counts and did not want to get my son hurt. After the season (70 innings) he apologized for over using him. I did not feel that he did.
We have always played the most competitive ball we can and my son has been blessed to be associated with 2 teams that went to the CMWS(though he signed before the 2nd one), go to LL states, triple crown nat'l champs etc. Trying to help the team win is the number one goal.
A coach and a parent agreeing on a pitch count pre season is just fine and doesn't inherently mean interfereing. Not every coach believes that parents have no knowledge and should be totally ignored. The pitch count issue can also be revisited during the season if the coach so feels.
Some coaches are so good that no conversation is needed. Some are so paranoid that they cannot have a conversation. Some coaches I wouldn't let my son play for. If that makes you think of me as an interfering parent so be it.
My son pitched complete games in 11 of 14 starts and it was never my decision to take him out. On 2 occasions he asked me what I thought between innings and I said I felt he was fine. Coach took him out any way. Do you have a point?
Will I am adding to this post.
I know that you think every parent who speaks to a coach is interfering. It just is not true. Moving into the district and to a new school, I talked to the new coach and we discussed pitch counts. He agreed and respected my opinion enough to consult me at times. Quietly, thumbs up or down. That is it. He also didn't want to play him at a position because he understood that all the scouts weren't there to watch him coach or my son play 1b. I respected that and said "coach your call whatever to help the team". Our 1bman got hurt and my son was pressed into service. He asked if it was ok with my son. I said that was between them. He played 1st and made 2nd team all state as a utility player. As the coach explained it to me he wanted pitch counts and did not want to get my son hurt. After the season (70 innings) he apologized for over using him. I did not feel that he did.
We have always played the most competitive ball we can and my son has been blessed to be associated with 2 teams that went to the CMWS(though he signed before the 2nd one), go to LL states, triple crown nat'l champs etc. Trying to help the team win is the number one goal.
A coach and a parent agreeing on a pitch count pre season is just fine and doesn't inherently mean interfereing. Not every coach believes that parents have no knowledge and should be totally ignored. The pitch count issue can also be revisited during the season if the coach so feels.
Some coaches are so good that no conversation is needed. Some are so paranoid that they cannot have a conversation. Some coaches I wouldn't let my son play for. If that makes you think of me as an interfering parent so be it.
KellerDad,
Though all of those things are true, the reason he fell in the draft was a signability/family demands issue. Not because of the hs situation. It is my understanding that he turned down mid 6 figures even as a 19th round pick. Were it not for family demands he probably would have gone in the top five rounds.
quote:
Readers digest version:
Very highly touted Senior pitching in an early season High School game goes to 137 pitches. Dad gets furious, pulls kid out of dugout.
Kid gets kicked off of team for that and then not showing up for practice the next day.
Kid was touted to go very high in the draft, ended up falling considerably. Had signed with OU, and attended there his freshman year.
Word on the street he is now at a local Juco.
Though all of those things are true, the reason he fell in the draft was a signability/family demands issue. Not because of the hs situation. It is my understanding that he turned down mid 6 figures even as a 19th round pick. Were it not for family demands he probably would have gone in the top five rounds.