Opinions--Is this overuse?

PitcherMom,

I feel for you and your son. You will get many opinions on this subject, but unfortunately there is no perfect answer. It all depends on the coach and how decent he is. I do think that you need to “diplomatically”, with lots of thought put into it, discuss this with the coach. If that doesn’t help, there’s a definite problem.

You also have to discuss this with your son so that he can recognize the problem with arm abuse. It’s difficult, because saying the wrong thing can cause psychological problems at times. Being extra competitive is a big positive and you don’t want to change that in him. Being intelligent is a big plus but sometime it can get in the way of being extra competitive.

You could do many other things including quitting or changing the scenery, but those things tend to be unproductive much of the time.

Then there’s another choice that most on here will disagree with. Let it go and pray for the best.

Personally, I would start with first talking to the coaches. Usually if this is done right, with a lot of thought beforehand and respect involved, it has a good chance of working. If done right, I doubt it will hurt your son’s position with the team. After all, it obviously appears the coach feels he is their #1 pitcher.

You will get other opinions and maybe some better ones, I’m sure.

Best of luck

Don't get me wrong, I'm one of the first to jump up and down and scream about coaches who abuse kids arms, but the games and pitch counts you cite (Wed / Sat / Wed) actually aren't that far out of line with the recomendations I've seen by recognized medical experts. Still, stay on top of it and maybe have a diplomatic talk with the coach, armed with some expert advice by medical professionals. There are several references online as to suggested pitch counts and days of rest between pitching, here's one:

http://www.baseballtips.com/pitchingreport.html

Another consideration is that it's early in the season, and pitchers likely don't have the stamina they will in a few more weeks. Given that fact coaches generally shouldn't expect kids to go as long as they can a little deeper into the season.

IMO, a kid who gives his all should be able to tell a quality coach that he's done. Some times that 100 pitches, sometimes it may be 60, depends on the game.

Of course the kid could throw a few over the backstop, that would get the coach's attention.

Agree with Obrady, kid needs to be grown up enough to tell the coach when he is done if the coach is the oblivious type. Might need some adult backup if the kid is overwhelmed by the prospect.

quote:

He was severely over pitched last season, resulting in significant arm wear and requiring several months rest over the summer which is usually his travel team time. Was assured that he would not be abused this year, by new pitching coach.

I know relatively nothing about pitching,....
but the above sounds like a giant big red flag to me.
EEK!
The health of your son's arm is vital!

I am assuming he wants to play in college? Yes/no?
Already signed?

Please go to the pitching/throwing forum to continue this discussion. I have posted more information there.
Thanks

Check out amsi.org to get a view on how many pitches he needs to be throwing. My son is a soph and is used way too much. I've told him he needs to tell the coach things like, I'm done coach, can you go another inning? No coach I'm out of gas. Coach I can't get loose, anything just know when enough is enough. The University of Virginia coach has never had an arm injury and he starts watching them at 45 pitches. He also limits the number of pitches for the year to their age X 100. So if your son is 18 he is limited to 1800 total for spring, summer, fall. Pitchers are extremely competitive and never will refuse the ball. I truly feel for your son and I hope they don't ruin his future. It is very difficult but he has to know when to say when. My son is still learning this, it's not easy.

Good sites, thank you. PGStaff, of course your input is always valued. I'm debating...talk to the coach now, as in this afternoon; or wait and see what happens with the next game or two (basically, give it one more chance)

I would let the boy talk with the coach--as noted above the coach obviously looks at your son as the ace of the staff , if there is a staff after him---let the boy talk to him man to man regarding where will his arm will be later in the season when the playoffs come---

For me three starts in an 8 days span is not a good thing regardless of how many pitches he threw especially this early in the season---you say you are in the Southeast so I will assume that the weather has not been the best to date


Leave it in your sons hands to get it done without you getting involved--I think it will work out better this way

Here are a few key things I saw from your cross thread in the pitchers forum:

quote:

likelihood of his playing college ball is high if he's not wasted by the end of HS!

This is IMPORTANT!

quote:

Coach has been verbal to both my spouse and Pitcher16, that without his arm, they don't have a chance.

????????? And what was spouse and Pitcher16's response?

quote:

the thing is he is deep in pitchers with talent, they are young, but they can perform, especially at some of the non crucial games, so I don't understand his insistence at using Pitcher16 so much.

Yes,....

quote:

...he said if I would agree to not go to the coach he would look to me for his count and take himself out at 90, unless it was just an extremely good situation.

Sounds like you may be indeed on your way to solving this problem. The health of your son's arm is VITAL!

Because he is a senior, I'd let him handle it. Part of the learning/growing up process and a lesson of experience that he will be able to have in his arsenal, when handling business in college.

As a parent, I'd tell him to talk to his coach one on one....
And sooner,
rather than, later.


( P.S. Psssst,....or perhaps,.... whisper-whisper..... speaking fellow mom-to-mom only, I could loan you my nifty-difty plastic cooking spatula, and it could just haaaaaaappen to suddenly find its way over to the coaches forehead. Splat! Woopsie daisey. j/k )

Shucks, instead of over using your sons arm, he could have had a V-8.

( Pretend I never typed that. )

If the kid is in shape a 4 day rotation should be more than enough time to recover.

quote:

Last year was his first year pitching for this high school due to family moving. He was severely over pitched last season, resulting in significant arm wear and requiring several months rest over the summer which is usually his travel team time. Was assured that he would not be abused this year, by new pitching coach.

What's important is how does your son feel about this? Has he given the coach card blanc to using him. I think it's important to realize that he a senior and if he has issues he should address them face-2-face with the coach.

With that said, you are still the parent. If the kid has issues but problems in addressing the coach, and you had this conversation last year with the pitching coach re-address it with him and let him be the messenger to the head coach. Sometimes coaches get caught up in the W/L and lose track of the "pieces" to the puzzle. History has spoken in regard to the "wear-n-tear of the last season and if the boy has any college aspirations, does that coach want to be responsible for not allowing him to pursue that?

You sit between a rock and a hard place and I would suggest that a subliminal message of common sense be put on the table at this time. If he's a smart man he'll pick up on it, if not a more "blunt" approach may be needed. Don't come off as an overbearing parent rather a concerned one.

But first and foremost have a sit-down with your son and make sure you are both on the same page.

How bout this: (typical in uncle's area) this is an actual, so don't feel too bad.

Scenario: Junior RHP, Since start of this season, 5 games played within 10 days. He has pitched 4 of 5 games. Team is currently 2-3.

Thursday: 4 1/3 innings, 66 pitches.
Saturday: 7 innings, 101 pitches.
Wednesday: 5 2/3 innings, 125 pitches
Saturday: 6 innings, 98 pitches (removed because arm felt like it was going to fall off

I'm sorry all. As I suspected, its hard to keep up with the thread in both places. I will take this over to the pitching/throwing forum and continue there.

If a pitcher were completely healthy and it were deeper into the year, I don't see the scenario given as abusive. Wednesday he essentially threw an extended bullpen, and he got at least 3 days rest between his Saturday start and his (following) Wednesday start. However, it concerned me that this kid had previous arm problems the year before. I would think, if that were the case, the coach would be a little more cautious.

How hard does your kid throw? Make sure he is doing band work to protect his shoulder.

NO! Once a week is fine. The scenario you describe is ridiculous ESPCECIALLY early in the season and ESPECIALLY given the overuse scenario you described for the previous season. If you want to see your player pitch in college or beyond you'd better get involved. Your son's solution is to do what his coach requests. I hope your son does not ask you years from now why you didn't get involved and stop him. You're the adult. The fact the coach has no chance without your son is a non-factor in your decision. I agree that you can approach it diplomatically, but you have to draw a line in the sand. Educate yourself about arm throwing from medical experts, not coaches. When he is a full grown man on a major league team he might be on a 5 day rotation - not in high school.

Brod, very good points but I think a lot of folks have got caught up in pitch-counts. I see even major-leaguers getting pulled after exactly 70 pitches. When did that start?

I think a lot of kids actually don't throw enough these days. Now, I don't mean pitch. I mean throw. If a kid is healthy and long-tossing daily, the above scenario is not abusive. I think it would be abusive, however, if a kid had back-to-back-to-back starts with only 3 days rest between. In my book, its not pitch count in of itself it's cummulative pitch counts. In other words, don't followup a high pitch count with another high pitch count with inadequate rest.

Bum and Brod...Just wanted to thank you for your input. Things had been busy over in the thread on pitching/throwing and I had not looked back here until now.
Bum--he does throw daily. He and one of the other players went to field most every day during the winter to long toss and BP. Even when he was placed on rest for those 12 weeks, he was told that was okay, just no pitching. He is fit, but I still really have questions on whether his arm has fully healed. Coach knows about his arm troubles--which he never had till this past year.
Brod-you lost me on this part "Your son's solution is to do what his coach requests." I'm not sure I understand. I agree with your statement "The fact the coach has no chance without your son is a non-factor in your decision.", and it doesn't with me or his father, but it does with my son. He just doesn't really understand the future costs at this point. Believe me, we have really talked with him about this situation--last year, and again now. I'm sure he is feeling somewhat hounded by me over the last 24 hours or so. Even now...he admits he should have come out in the sixth inning of that last game. But in almost the same breath, "we could have lost that game if I didn't go back in" I ask him, "so what? Is winning that game worth damaging your arm for good, and not having the option of playing in college if you want to? Do you really want to undergo surgery at this age over this?" Of course he says no...but he's not in the heat of the moment right then. I do not put all blame on the coach for this, my son has a strong competitive nature, and he does need to listen to his body and say when he has done enough. Of course no one has ever "forced" him to pitch any game. But he feels the pressure to continue to please this coach and serve his team. I do expect this coach after, I don't know, 40 or so plus years of coaching, to know the signs when a pitcher is flagging and take him out, instead of asking "can you give me one more out?" and then having him deliver 2 because the first came to quickly! A little bit about last year...I can tell you there was one game, in 7 innings he threw 134 pitches. Home games are broadcast on the radio, I can remember hearing the announcer say "I know coach_____ really believes in this kid, but I think he's done enough." I can't remember his days of rest he had before going into it, and I can't remember how many games he played that week. I can tell you that last year the team had 23 games between March 1st to May 1st, not including scrimmages. Son pitched 12 of those games, 76 innings, his record was 8-4. I don't have the pitch counts but I remember he pitched one 7inn game in 84 pitches, others the pitch count was much higher. He never pitched less than 3 innings, and many were 6-7 inns. I can tell you that as we got deeper into the season and the region games, many of those were on 2-3 days rest. He might of had a week off, while some of the less "important" games were played, but then he would have a burst of games that were played back to back so to speak. I should have stopped it, since he didn't seem able to but I didn't. And he paid a price for it. I caught hell from his travel coach, his showcase coach, some of his teammates parents, and basically everybody that knew him and knew of the situation. I said I would not let this happen again. I was afraid I was seeing a repeat, even in the first week. I came here looking for advice from knowledgeable people and got plenty of it! For the most part, we have decided that son is talking to pitching coach about cutting down his work load. We have decided, that son will take himself out at the appropriate time and that he has to verbalize to the coach that he is done. I'm monitoring the situation closely, and if this does not work then I will step in...not at a game, but at a scheduled time and calmly. Sorry, once again, I didn't mean for this to be such a lengthy post. I do appreciate your help.

pitcher16mom,

Thank you for the added information. Don't forget the band work (critical to protect the shoulder) and hopefully your son gets 4-5 days' rest minimum between starts. That means if he throws Monday he should not throw again until Saturday (4 days off). As the season gets deeper, if there is ever an occasion (like a playoff game) where the coach goes on 3 days rest, make sure that followup start is not a high pitch count game. I think it's okay if the coach has your son throw a "bullpen" game 35-40 pitches and, on two days' rest, throws a normal game. Just not consecutive high-pitch count games and not a high pitch count game on less than 4 days' rest.

The original example you gave, 96 pitches followed by 112 pitches on only 3 days rest would be what I'm talking about. That's a (relatively) high pitch count game followed by a high pitch count game on less than 4 days' rest.

Honestly I don't think this is too much overall. The last day you mentioned is too much but for a week not really.

Overall though a lot depends on your physical conditioning. If your body / arm is in shape then you can withstand higher pitch counts.

Bum is correct in that kids don't throw enough. If your body is conditioned to throw a lot then you can throw a lot but it takes a strong offseason and preseason conditioning. If you take your time and work your way into it then it's amazing what your body is capable of. Look at Ironmen Triathletes - what they do is just not natural but they can do it because they condition for it.

I'm not saying any pitch count is fine nor pitching a lot in short period of times is the way to go. You still need to be smart and know when to rest but if you condition and prepare right then you can pitch quite a bit.

Good points, coach2709. Just remember, it's not really the arm but the legs that get tired. Then the pitcher is compensating by changing his mechanics and then trouble begins. Watch the pitcher's motion carefully! He could be tired on only 45 pitches yet if you're following a system that says "pull the kid after 75" it's too late. That's why I'm not big on pitch counts. Some kids can go 110 with no problem and others have problems after 30.

That's why God gave us closers.

Great point Bum and it really becomes a player by player situation. I still like pitch counts MUCH more than I do inning counts. There needs to be some sort of accountability in keeping track of arms but the whole so many days after so many innings isn't the best - not bad but not the best.

Under NFHS rules if you pitch two innings or less then you can come back the next day but if you pitch three innings you need one day of rest. Well you could throw 82 pitches in two innings and be eligible to come back the next day. That would be crazy to do. Then again you could throw 30 pitches in three innings and be fine the next day.

Still it does come down to conditioning and the legs are the most important thing towards durability. If the legs go then usually the arm slot then mechanics follow.

ahhh...you guys bring up a great point in the legs! Son does TON of band work, question there---can one do too much band work? My husband has often questioned whether son does too much, and if it is hindering his recovery rather than helping. And YES, son does not spend enough time developing his legs as compared to his upper body. Dad has repeatedly told him that is where his strength is going to come from while he pitches, and that he needs to increase the work on legs. Apparently, he is not hearing this from anyone else, but his Dad, or he would already be doing it. You know sometimes with these guys, we parents know nothing! Maybe I can point him here and get him to listen. He definitely needs to pick up in this area.
Do you guys think coach should be a little more cautious with him given knowledge of the problems from last year?
Your input is VERY helpful...thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
I think it's okay if the coach has your son throw a "bullpen" game 35-40 pitches and, on two days' rest, throws a normal game. Just not consecutive high-pitch count games and not a high pitch count game on less than 4 days' rest.

Thats exactly my point...this is what was occurring last year. I remember him pitching lots of innings that were too close together, without regard for how many pitches he had thrown previously.

One more thing i wanted to ask. As far as the band work--I have noticed that P16 often uses the band while in the dugout between innings. Dad doesn't like it--son says he is doing nothing strenuous, just keeping his arm warm and loose between innings. I have also noticed that he does not do this at HS games (at least not that I can recall--maybe the view into the dugout is not as good), but at travel games. What do you say?
BTW..all of those high pitch count innings were not always due to P16. Defense on HS team is not what it should be, frequent errors on what should have been easy outs. Though he is pitched frequently on TravelTeam, it is a MUCH better team overall (not unusual I think), and he can rely on Defense backing him up--ends up not having to work nearly as hard
with a significantly lower count.

I am not understanding all of this, how long was he throwing bullpens before he actually began pitching. What was his preparation? Or was he just thrown into the fire?
Bum is correct, often times pitchers don't THROW enough, that's quite different than pitching.
There seems to be no plan for him?

If your son has followed some type of routine to prepare for his season, that's ok, if he didn't and has not prepared his entire body, he might hit a wall shortly. Going to the field and throwing with a pal is not proper prep. It's only early March and he just began his season.


Your son is gaining nothing by being the sacrificial lamb for the team with the mind set, "they need me to win games". Obviously if you look back, what your son did last year laid him off for 12 weeks, the object is to NOT get in that situation. He needs to speak up. The way I look at it in HS, everyone has a third of the responsibility, the coach, the parent and the player.

I don't care what anyone says, unless your son has prepared in the off season and worked up to the pitch counts, especially after all that has occurred in the past, you need to step in asap. The object is to build up your pitch count, 30, 50, 75 etc. and a limit set after he begins. If they don't have a reliever, that's their problem, not your sons.

You know TPM, this may be bad, but I really can't answer a lot of those questions. By the time I get to his games (rushing from work), it is right before gametime or even a few minutes into it. So whatever warm-up he had is already done as He is the opener probably more than 90% of his games.
Kind of the same for any plan developed for him by the coaches, I've really been pretty ignorant in that kind of thing, and should admittedly be better informed--but basically have left that up to his coaches since I know I'm not well informed in this area, I don't interfere.
I will have to get him on here, to tell that information.
I am in total agreement that the reliever shortage is "not his problem". I'm working on convincing him of the value of this, unfortunately like I said, lots of pressure on him to feel otherwise, combined with his own competitive nature is a big part of the problem. This is something he HAS to realize.

quote:

Originally posted by Pitcher16Mom:
One more thing i wanted to ask. As far as the band work--I have noticed that P16 often uses the band while in the dugout between innings. Dad doesn't like it--son says he is doing nothing strenuous, just keeping his arm warm and loose between innings. I have also noticed that he does not do this at HS games (at least not that I can recall--maybe the view into the dugout is not as good), but at travel games. What do you say?
BTW..all of those high pitch count innings were not always due to P16. Defense on HS team is not what it should be, frequent errors on what should have been easy outs. Though he is pitched frequently on TravelTeam, it is a MUCH better team overall (not unusual I think), and he can rely on Defense backing him up--ends up not having to work nearly as hard
with a significantly lower count.

This is why you need to talk to the coach. They should be directing him and explaining things to you.
Band work pitching day is done before a pitcher warms up for the pen, not in between innings unless I am wrong have NEVER seen son do that. I don't see that as keeping his arm warmed up, that's why you see pitchers sitting with jackets in the dug out. If it's too long between innings he can toss on the side. Mine does his band reps on a schedule in between starts.
It doesn't matter who, how or why he racks up a high pitch count. It's his arm. Poor defense in HS is usually the culprit, he can have a good inning then a bad one, another bad one, then a good one, it's what comes out in the end. My son's particular goal is 11 thrown per inning, so in 5 it should be 55, 6 innings 66, 7 innings 77 and so on. He could throw 6 or 20 in an inning, but should average out to 11. If he's running 96 in 7 he's gone a bit too far for the day for him and pulled.
My son's teammate in college was never monitored in HS, one game he told me he threw 190 pitches. He had a great freshman year one of the best ever in the team history, but with college workload his elbow began hurting and required TJS. A projected first rounder, he was drafted in the 6th due to missing 18 months of playing time.

P16M you are starting to get good advice BUM I agree 100 %. We have talked many times over the last couple years and many young pitchers do not throw enough and do not throw properly. Pitch counts are used bEcause people really don't know what is too much or too little so they need a guide line. This is why a coach should listen to what an educated pitcher is telling him every time he goes to the mound.
Evry pitcher uses bands Even in the pros and thEy do it often in the bull pen before throwing.
I suspected using arm too much as opposed to lower body.

BHD...from what I have read and heard and what I see with my son, I would wholeheartedly agree with the lower body thing. You know one good thing that has come of this entire dilemma, is that we have really been more insistent that he talk with us about this stuff. P16 is not a great conversationalist and doesn't like talking with his parents about things he disagrees with us on, He will say anything to make us go away (he's a great kid, really--couldn't ask for better, but I think a typical teen-ager)
TPM, it is hard for me to talk to coach, because I just don't know enough about a lot of this stuff, so how can I evaluate whether his plan is good or bad--except by getting input from other knowledgeable people? Granted, I may be relatively new at posting here, but have been a reader for at least a year or more. I wish I had found this site sooner, as I believe I would be much better educated...I have learned a lot here! A while back there was a post about how many people always loved baseball vs those who got involved because of their kids--well I admit I fall into the latter group. Son has played since he was a 5 yo--I've just been along for the ride. Dad is much more knowledgeable than me, he played from childhood into his late 30's. But he admits he was never the player that son is--just loved the game. So his knowledge is not advanced either. Whats a parent to do, when more knowledgeable people tell them that their son is being hurt the way things are currently done?? And when I say other people--I'm not referring to just here on the board, I'm talking about here, regionally and locally that know the situation first hand.

Edited to add last sentence

[/QUOTE]

This is why you need to talk to the coach. They should be directing him and explaining things to you. [/QUOTE]
Sorry TPM..just caught this part of your post. Most have read to quickly the first time.

quote:

Whats a parent to do,

You have to get your son to understand that you are trying to help him. Most teenagers do not like to talk especially to their parents. My son was no different Used to get angry when I videoed his outtings until his teammates wanted me to do their outtings. Eventually he came to me for advice and anaysis of the video.
I started by reading about pitching, getting him some pro lessons and educating myself. We were fortunate that we had a ML team in our city and lots of great advice. My oldest daughters boy friend was a draft prospect until he ruined his knee taking an at bat.
There are great books and videos. My favourite was a book that showed several styles of pitching with great illustration and anecdotal stories. My son keeps it in his bag. It shows how to correct issues. We also like Tom House and his views because my son is a Tall n Fall type pitcher His analysis of throwing mechanics is excellent.
So you have to educate yourself before you can educate your son. Very few HS coaches are in depth savey about pitching. Even many college coaches have limited knowledge.
My son is litterally the poster boy for an abused arm if you take the guide lines that most people accept as reasonable. He does get very tired and exhausted from the heavy work load and he did in HS aswell. I used to wonder when he would get sick of it but he loves it. We have a great relationship and he does listen. He has listened to me for the last 5 years or so but before that he was like your son.

We have done a lot of these things. Bought great books for him, we hired pitching instructors, sent him to respected camps over the years, and showcases as he was older. All places we felt could give him good advice, evaluation and feedback. Granted, most of this was for his development, not ours. Now I find myself in the backstretch, with limited knowledge, less than 3 months school left and in a worrisome situation. He is well into the recruiting process--as a matter of fact, thats how I happened upon HSBBW, trying to figure out what to do when the letters and calls of interest started coming in. I just don't want his health jeopardized, and I don't want him to ruin any baseball options he may have.
You know when we first moved here, we were excited at the prospect of him playing under this coach--thought he could develop him as a player so much better than past coaches he has had. I'm certainly having to rethink this now. I think son really knows we are trying to help--he just doesn't like being the center of our attention.

I took the approach that I wanted to know more than he did. I went to evry practice, video his instruction and read all the books when he probably didn't.
When they are young they just want to play. I knew the risks and saw injuries long before my son played. I was more into football but did pitchs ahrd ball and fast ball. I knew there was risk so I wanted to understand the facts. My son also was an off speed pitcher and I investigated CBs and my daughters boy friend showed him how to throw a relatively safe one. At 15 he was shown the pro CB by the head P scout of the Jays at the time.(now with the Twins).
It is important to know as much or more than your son. Your Husband sounds like he has a good back ground to advise him if he boenes up on some good books etc.

Pitcher16Mom,

Rather than PM, it's probably better to reply here.

The truth of the matter is I doubt anyone here knows any of the people involved, I mean your son, the coaches, or even you or your husband. So any and all answers are somewhat generic without knowing everything involved. Every situation is unique to a certain extent. That makes any generalization made on message board potentially inaccurate or even impossible in some individual cases.

My suggestion is to find the very best baseball person who knows your son and your situation and pick his brain. It does seem that this is a large concern to you and something that important should involve more personal knowledge of the situation.

I am not qualified, not sure anyone is, to give you all the answers without being closer to what is going on. Usually there is not one sure fire answer or solution to an individual problem. However, pitchers do get abused and if your son is one of them that is being abused, something needs to be done. That is where someone much “closer to home” might be able to help you a lot.

Sometimes I give suggestions without remembering that I’m sometimes wrong. Results are what count and no matter what advice someone might give, it could always end up looking like bad advice. Hope you understand. I wish you and your son all the success possible.

The one thing I will suggest, that I doubt will hurt anyone is this. Communicate your concerns face to face with someone knowledgable that you know and trust. I don’t know any better way to handle it.

Best of luck

I'm sorry PG...I should have been more specific. Good advice of course, and I agree with your assessment, but I was referring more to his use of the bands. And maybe what do you or anyone else for that matter recommend as a good leg routine for a pitcher? Sorry about that, again I wasn't clear.

Pitcher16mom: As a mother I feel your and your sons pain. A coach who has the kids best interest in mind will/should be more mindful of the short/long term affect this is having on his arm. Your son if he is this good to be used so often should talk to the coach, if this doesn't work and your son has ideas of going to college and playing baseball needs to have first and foremost know when he has thrown too much. Pitch counts should be utilized regardless. College baseball may not be an option for him if he or you do not intervene now. Worse thing that could happen and I have seen pitchers do this, if the coach is insisting on him throwing in the game and he knows he is done, he can take himself out! This would be an extreme measure but if the coach has his best interest at heart rather than evidently winning at all costs then he's desperate enough he may realize to listen to your son when he says he is done. Weather, pitch count, and the obvious a parent and coach can tell there is a problem based on how he is pitching - how is the game going. Too many coached overuse arms from little league, middle school through high school. Your son needs to let the coach know - talk - communicate. Coaches do not know if you don't tell them there is a problem.

Sorry for the rambling - so many of these posts bring the same topics up from so many.

Good luck - I hope things work out for you this season.

Just a quick update for those interested:

Son's Coach actually came to us in a casual, away from school, and game kind of way. Son's arm, past problems and current use and performance were discussed, as well as communication difficulties. Upshot...good conversation, and so far, so good. Son has had plenty of rest between games is performing well and says arm is feeling great. Other, younger pitchers are getting a chance to show their stuff and are doing well! Region games are coming up and we will see if current pattern continues to hold. I have every reason to believe that it will. Thanks again to all for your advice and concern--great people here.

learn to look for the warning signs from the stands, I tend to agree w/ Bum on the not throwing enough, but as well everyone is different, some can and can't throw as much. Look for the fastball getting delivered high, more than usual, constant arm motions before the pitch, shaking the throwing hand,more time between delivered pitches. You also can't forget about all the warmup throws before games,warmup pitches before the inning, they will also count as well.

We start in a week here, and son *frosh* just pitched yesterday for the first time in practice. Luckily, he works at it all year, so I'd say he's in game shape.As for the rest of his team, I doubt it! I know myself, I won't hesitate to talk to a coach about overuse if the situation arises.

Also I know pitchers hide the truth, I am one myslef , and I know I never want to come out, but I also know my son and he can't hide it.