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Opposite Field Hitter

HC Hot Corner Dad10+ posts
I'm a long-time reader of this wonderful site. I have a young sophomore who is still only 14 and played with the varsity this past summer in our local high school summer league. The kid is a strong hitter, but a little unusual. He hits 90% to the opposite field or up the middle. When he pulls the ball it isn't with much authority, but when he goes the other way or up the middle he is a line drive machine.

He's worried because his coaches and teammates are pushing him to pull the ball more. I keep reminding him that guys like Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs got to the Hall of Fame by hitting the ball the opposite way. Something tells me my voice isn't ringing as loudly in his ears as his coach's voice.

Here is a short clip of his stroke. Any feedback is welcome, but I'm mainly interested in people's thoughts about needing to work on pulling the ball.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YHX47ncqteg
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Q Quincy1,000+ posts
It looks like he was taught to make contact directly over the plate.

Do some batting practice and ask him to make contact just in front of the plate.

It also looks like his front shoulder pulls to the plate when he loads.

Don't mention the shoulder to him, just ask him to make contact in front of the plate.

See if that helps a bit.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Hot Corner Dad:
I'm a long-time reader of this wonderful site. I have a young sophomore who is still only 14 and played with the varsity this past summer in our local high school summer league. The kid is a strong hitter, but a little unusual. He hits 90% to the opposite field or up the middle. When he pulls the ball it isn't with much authority, but when he goes the other way or up the middle he is a line drive machine.

He's worried because his coaches and teammates are pushing him to pull the ball more. I keep reminding him that guys like Tony Gwynn and Wade Boggs got to the Hall of Fame by hitting the ball the opposite way. Something tells me my voice isn't ringing as loudly in his ears as his coach's voice.

Here is a short clip of his stroke. Any feedback is welcome, but I'm mainly interested in people's thoughts about needing to work on pulling the ball.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YHX47ncqteg




He is starting his hands before his hips, it should be the other way around. Bellybutton should be pointed at the Pitcher before his hands start forward.
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
I would be very careful here. My Son for years was an opposite field hitter. Usually hitting center field and over. Jeter is an opposite field hitter too, it seems to work for him.
I believe that you son is probably seeing the ball longer and making up his mind later than most batters. If this is so, then he probably does not strike out as much and probably puts the ball in play more.
Many coaches determine the quality of a hitter by his ability to hit the other way with authority. It sounds like your Son can do this, I would not worry.
I have been told by my Son's instructor that it is easier to learn to pull the ball than to hit opposite field and I believe it. We have worked on pulling the ball this year with good results.
To pull a pitch you need a pitch that is supposed to be pulled, meaning middle-in in relation to the plate. If it is middle out and he tries to pull it it will result in a weak (er) grounder to SS.
As far as starting hips -vs- starting hands, you don't want to change your mechanics based on pitch speed or location. you either want to start your swing sooner...or later. Outside pitches get deeper, inside pitches you hit out in front.
My Son has been taught to ALWAYS start his hands first. You can see my Son's swing in a thread in this forum.
If you can hit oposite field with power this is a huge PLUS not a negative! Pitch recognition is the key, my Son always took inside pitches because he was used to looking outer half, and he was pitched away so much. Now he has learned to use the whole plate and Punish the pitcher that dares to come inside. Take your time and learn to do it right, do not abandon what is working, learn to add to it!
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by floridafan:
I would be very careful here. My Son for years was an opposite field hitter. Usually hitting center field and over. Jeter is an opposite field hitter too, it seems to work for him.
I believe that you son is probably seeing the ball longer and making up his mind later than most batters. If this is so, then he probably does not strike out as much and probably puts the ball in play more.
Many coaches determine the quality of a hitter by his ability to hit the other way with authority. It sounds like your Son can do this, I would not worry.
I have been told by my Son's instructor that it is easier to learn to pull the ball than to hit opposite field and I believe it. We have worked on pulling the ball this year with good results.
To pull a pitch you need a pitch that is supposed to be pulled, meaning middle-in in relation to the plate. If it is middle out and he tries to pull it it will result in a weak (er) grounder to SS.
As far as starting hips -vs- starting hands, you don't want to change your mechanics based on pitch speed or location. you either want to start your swing sooner...or later. Outside pitches get deeper, inside pitches you hit out in front.
My Son has been taught to ALWAYS start his hands first. You can see my Son's swing in a thread in this forum.
If you can hit oposite field with power this is a huge PLUS not a negative! Pitch recognition is the key, my Son always took inside pitches because he was used to looking outer half, and he was pitched away so much. Now he has learned to use the whole plate and Punish the pitcher that dares to come inside. Take your time and learn to do it right, do not abandon what is working, learn to add to it!




If you start your hands first, your hips and core were not used to their full potential. Watch this frame by frame of Albert Pujols. Pay particular attention to frames 17, 18, and 19. You decide which goes first.

http://chrisoleary.com/projects/Baseball/Hitting/Profes..._AlbertPujols_02.pdf
floridafanfloridafan5,000+ posts
It looks like his hands are sync'ed up with his hip and they are going in unison which is what we expect to see as well. If we focus on hips first then the hands are likely to drag or be late. (pujols is not dragging his hands they are moving with his hip). If we focus on hands we know that they will get started in time which will then allow them to sync up with his hips. The body needs to move together to generate the best bat speed. I am sorry if I indicated that the hands go, then the hip, which I suppose is what I said. But the mental trigger for my Son is Hands First. The Hip and the hands sync up though so you are correct in that. In the Frames you refer to Pujols hands are going. That is the action we refer to as hands first. Not hands out in front of the body off balance or anything like that... It is a mental trigger to have quick hands, not to drag them through the zone.
VERY NICE pice on Pujols though...awesome
Last edited by floridafan
RacabRacab1,000+ posts
Why do you want him to pull?..He doesn't look to me like a power hitter. He has a pretty nice in-out swing, and to fix his little mechanics problems will be easy. He is throwing his hands in, very well, so don't tell him to hit the ball in front of the plate, because this will force him to change the position of his hands during the swing. Let him mature as a hitter, and you will be surprise how fast he will transform him self as a hitter.
Last edited by Racab
T tom.guerry100+ posts
hot corner -

Here are some thoughts using a mixture of old and new buzzwords to try to shed some light on things.

Your kid sounds typical of the usual development process.

It is easier to "stay connected" for turning the body on an inside pitch. The hands stay in more, there is less "resistance" to rotation and the body can keep turning enough to not force the arms to take over and extend. If there is not enough body turn, your brain/body will sense a big problem on the fly and force the arms to intervene.

When the arms take over and extend, there is brief deceleration, then reacceleration and swing timing gets WAY off.

On the other hand, when you avoid disconnecting too much by one piece body turn, you "spin" and hit the ball out front too much or hit around the ball which produces the pull or pull/hook/foul type ball flight, but there is time to develop some power as opposed to the outside location. This is probably where your kid's swing is.

What you would like to next is learn to coil the body enough by "keeping the hands back" (keeping the shoulders from turning) and by opening the hips ahead of the hands so you can power the swing by "body torque" which gives a segmental (not "one-piece") unloading of the body and accelerates the bat with deeper acceleration and no need to take over with the arms, so-called "early batspeed" which means you can wait longer, then swing more quickly for deeper/squarer contact.

This type of desired body load/coil then turns the body segmentally from bottom up (body turns from bottom up which finishes coiling/"cusp" then torso uncoils from middle up once you "connect" at the shoulders) to power a quick swing by rotation as opposed to disconnecting or using a spinning type body rotation which can only produce "late batspeed"/force premature adjustment/commitment and usually the either or situation you describe - pull foul with some power or weak oppo hits.

This body torque/keeping the hands back is created by learning to start the swing by taking an inward turn of the body (avoid dead hips or "dead stop hitting), turning the bat between the hands (avoid dead hands hitting) then tilting (not turning) the shoulders to resist the upper body turning open with the hips so you can finish coiling then have uninterrupted and well directed uncoiling from the middle up. This also lets you adjust the swing plane by how much you load the hands back and in and how level (high heater) or loopy (match low/dropping) you make the swing to match the pitch location to create a longer contact zone to make "square" (well lined up center to center) contact much more likely.

This gives you more time to read the pitch and adjust better and lower timg error and better likelihood that square contact will produce fair ball hit with power in air (able to lift low ball, including low outside ball).

Matching the outside ball requires rotating with the hands further from the body/more resistance to rotation and a more inside to out path or a path with acceleration starting more behind the hitter which means MORE coil/body torque/loading hands back/in more.

So what you need to do is learn to coil/load the body better so you can hit both the outside and inside pitch with power and keep it fair.

High level pattern hitters do this by learning to develop lots of coil at the right time to hit the ball HARD OPPO. so they force themselves to wind the body more and not compensate by arm swinging.

For golfers, this is the same thing golfers do to learn to stop slicing that produces a swing that goes outside/in cutting across the ball and preventing square contact.

To cure this, they have to coil more and keep the arms/hands back. Theyn learn to develop a swing plane that delivers the club more from the inside by better coiling.

In hitting, you need to hit the ball hard OPPO, not use a push or pepper swing where you inside out the ball by disconnecting the hands from the body with arm action.

I like the Epstein apporach where you first learn to handle the inside ball, then learn to let outside get deeper. That is the time to work on getting the body to coil and not let tha arms interrupt.

Learn to hit ball hard oppo by coiling/uncoiling body, not using arms.

The body coil is controlled by handle torque and shoulder tilt which has been talked about here a lot.

You have to teach/learn good coil to deliver the bat/club from the inside which is part of what is meant by "keeping the hands in" :

deliver bat from inside (do not hit around ball) and

hands stay connected to body turn from bathead launch to contact.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Yes, let him mature and don't push the pull/hit it out front thing. Also, for some reason young leftys have the tendency to hit oppo.
When he does pull the ball "without authority" it might be because he is turning his hands over at or prior to contact.




Yep, lots of young lefties tend to hit oppo. Much of the reason though, is that their tee ball or Little League Coach taught them to or wanted them to, to get those infield hits. This kid is 14 and will be facing possibly low 90s to mid 80s fastballs soon and Pitchers that can hit their spots with all of their pitches. He can either learn to pull or he's going to be getting sawed off at the plate a lot. There is nothing wrong with hitting one way or another a majority of the time, but you need to learn to hit to all fields, IMO.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tom.guerry:
hot corner -

Here are some thoughts using a mixture of old and new buzzwords to try to shed some light on things.

Your kid sounds typical of the usual development process.

It is easier to "stay connected" for turning the body on an inside pitch. The hands stay in more, there is less "resistance" to rotation and the body can keep turning enough to not force the arms to take over and extend. If there is not enough body turn, your brain/body will sense a big problem on the fly and force the arms to intervene.

When the arms take over and extend, there is brief deceleration, then reacceleration and swing timing gets WAY off.

On the other hand, when you avoid disconnecting too much by one piece body turn, you "spin" and hit the ball out front too much or hit around the ball which produces the pull or pull/hook/foul type ball flight, but there is time to develop some power as opposed to the outside location. This is probably where your kid's swing is.

What you would like to next is learn to coil the body enough by "keeping the hands back" (keeping the shoulders from turning) and by opening the hips ahead of the hands so you can power the swing by "body torque" which gives a segmental (not "one-piece") unloading of the body and accelerates the bat with deeper acceleration and no need to take over with the arms, so-called "early batspeed" which means you can wait longer, then swing more quickly for deeper/squarer contact.

This type of desired body load/coil then turns the body segmentally from bottom up (body turns from bottom up which finishes coiling/"cusp" then torso uncoils from middle up once you "connect" at the shoulders) to power a quick swing by rotation as opposed to disconnecting or using a spinning type body rotation which can only produce "late batspeed"/force premature adjustment/commitment and usually the either or situation you describe - pull foul with some power or weak oppo hits.

This body torque/keeping the hands back is created by learning to start the swing by taking an inward turn of the body (avoid dead hips or "dead stop hitting), turning the bat between the hands (avoid dead hands hitting) then tilting (not turning) the shoulders to resist the upper body turning open with the hips so you can finish coiling then have uninterrupted and well directed uncoiling from the middle up. This also lets you adjust the swing plane by how much you load the hands back and in and how level (high heater) or loopy (match low/dropping) you make the swing to match the pitch location to create a longer contact zone to make "square" (well lined up center to center) contact much more likely.

This gives you more time to read the pitch and adjust better and lower timg error and better likelihood that square contact will produce fair ball hit with power in air (able to lift low ball, including low outside ball).

Matching the outside ball requires rotating with the hands further from the body/more resistance to rotation and a more inside to out path or a path with acceleration starting more behind the hitter which means MORE coil/body torque/loading hands back/in more.

So what you need to do is learn to coil/load the body better so you can hit both the outside and inside pitch with power and keep it fair.

High level pattern hitters do this by learning to develop lots of coil at the right time to hit the ball HARD OPPO. so they force themselves to wind the body more and not compensate by arm swinging.

For golfers, this is the same thing golfers do to learn to stop slicing that produces a swing that goes outside/in cutting across the ball and preventing square contact.

To cure this, they have to coil more and keep the arms/hands back. Theyn learn to develop a swing plane that delivers the club more from the inside by better coiling.

In hitting, you need to hit the ball hard OPPO, not use a push or pepper swing where you inside out the ball by disconnecting the hands from the body with arm action.

I like the Epstein apporach where you first learn to handle the inside ball, then learn to let outside get deeper. That is the time to work on getting the body to coil and not let tha arms interrupt.

Learn to hit ball hard oppo by coiling/uncoiling body, not using arms.

The body coil is controlled by handle torque and shoulder tilt which has been talked about here a lot.

You have to teach/learn good coil to deliver the bat/club from the inside which is part of what is meant by "keeping the hands in" :

deliver bat from inside (do not hit around ball) and

hands stay connected to body turn from bathead launch to contact.




This is one of the best explainations of swing mechanics I've ever read. I wish you lived near me, so I could have you demonstrate it in person, in slow motion. Are you a hitting Coach or a Private Instructor? You don't by any chance have a video out or a website, do you?
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by 2Diamonds:
Hit the ball where it is pitched. 70% of the outs in mlb come from pitching away.As he gets stronger he will be able to pull the inside pitch, but for now be happy he's putting it in play, and for the coach I think I can speak for many in that I would love for my guys to go oppo a whole lot more than they currently do.




Strength has nothing to do with pulling the ball. I agree, hit the ball where it's pitched when possible.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
It will be 2 3 years before the kid will see mid 80's + with any regularity. He has some time to develop.

I would use this offseason to work on the early bat speed which he does not have. It does take time
and is hard for the younger ones to adgust to it.
But here we are in the off season, good time to go to work on it.




He said he was playing with the Varsity High School team this Summer. We have J.V. players that hit upper 80s here in Louisville with several Varsity players in the area that top 90. I would think they would have at least that in North Carolina.
T TripleDad500+ posts
You telling me you have an upper 80's guy that can't play varsity? Apparently he hasn't thown a strike in a while.

When peaple start throwing around velocity numbers I get skeptical

I saw his swing, his size....unless he runs a 6.8 and has a rocket arm he won't be on a team that sees
85+ pitching with regularity for some time. He's fourteen. Prob. a Freshman.

Even if he makes Varsity 85+ is not common.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
You telling me you have an upper 80's guy that can't play varsity? Apparently he hasn't thown a strike in a while.

When peaple start throwing around velocity numbers I get skeptical

I saw his swing, his size....unless he runs a 6.8 and has a rocket arm he won't be on a team that sees
85+ pitching with regularity for some time. He's fourteen. Prob. a Freshman.

Even if he makes Varsity 85+ is not common.




I didn't say that they couldn't play Varisty, they do. But they were Sophomores last year and played J.V.. We have two on our team alone that threw 87 and 88 in July of this year in East Cobb according to Perfect Games' radar guns. 85+ is very common for RHP at the Varsity level here. The top teams usually have at least one guy that tops 90 on the Varsity. In the initial post, he said he was a "young Sophomore," so I would say he should be preparing to hit 85+ this Winter, so he'll be ready in the Spring, but that's just me.
T TripleDad500+ posts
Sorry , I missed the young sophmore part.

85+ is not common here, I'm 2 hours directly north of you. Most Varsity teams have at least one that can hit 85-86, but the 5 or 6 other pitchers are not hitting that velo. Very few teams around here have a guy getting in the 90's. There are some but not many.

btw. I will be at U of Louisville tommorrow. Watch the cards scrimmage at noon, then my son will play doubleheader in front of coaches after.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Sorry , I missed the young sophmore part.

85+ is not common here, I'm 2 hours directly north of you. Most Varsity teams have at least one that can hit 85-86, but the 5 or 6 other pitchers are not hitting that velo. Very few teams around here have a guy getting in the 90's. There are some but not many.

btw. I will be at U of Louisville tommorrow. Watch the cards scrimmage at noon, then my son will play doubleheader in front of coaches after.




Cool! What grade is your son in? Mine is a Junior at PRP High School here. He plays at 9 and 11:15. Who does your son play for? Maybe we'll come by and watch!
T tom.guerry100+ posts
"turning bat between hands" means you control the swing/loading by torquing the handle via the hands, not using two hands as a single hinge the way you would in golf.

Handle torque and shoulder tilt let you line up the swing on the fly in hitting.

hanlde torque and shoulder tilt are nonos in golf where reaction time/location is not a problem.

The torquing feeling should begin with what Lau called "rhythmic preswing activity to get you in the right pattern/mindset.

All high level swings go through the same sequence:

rhythmic preswing activity, inward turn, hip cpck,hand ****,wind rubber band, drop and tilt, swing.

Ttypical hand action with these phases would be:

-rythmic/alternating hand action moving bat (alternating rhythm of feet too) as part of rhythmic preswing activity,

-bringing hands down in toward center to make inward turn easier,

-dominance of back arm/top hand for hip and hand **** phase by internal rotation and elevation of back arm (the internal rotation of the back arm prevents shoulders from turning back/separating from hips too much/too early)

at same time lead arm stretaches and comes in toward body (Bottom Hand Under Top/BHUT)

bat cocks toward pitcher/maximum "tip" of "tip and rip"/max elevation of back elbow

-back arm then starts to slot,then lead arm/bottom hand becomes dominant force b y lead arm internal rotation and elevation. as rubber band winds, hands torque handle to start bat untipping/uncocking as shoulder stay back and front leg then hips turn open

-Go decision results in synched torquing of handle with forearm and shoulder TILT action as hips fire with weight finishing shift to front foot.

This sets up square swing plane and lets upper body resist turning in hip plane so there is last quick stretch before uncoiling boosts already turning bat quickly to contact.

Uncoiling drives hands initially, then lead wrist starts to unhinge, then top wrist starts to unhinge right at contact. Lead elbow can start unhinging (longer swing radius/outside) or not right before contact after lead wrist has lined up with lead forearm.

lead arm must stay connected in front shoulder until contact to avoid deceleration.


-grip and positioning of forearms is very important for smooth development of swing [plane and acceleration.
ChameleonChameleon100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:


He is starting his hands before his hips


This is nonsense.

Watch the clip. Spend some time before offering nonsensical advice to a well meaning dad.

I would prefer to see some frame by frame video. (I don't know how to get video off youtube yet)
The kid uses his hands pretty darn well.

I would leave him alone. Let his body mature. Let him learn to become more explosive within what he's doing. In other words....let him learn to load and unload what he's already doing. Don't have him change to a new pattern or a new concept.

And tell the coaches and friends to ---DELETED OBSCENITY---
Last edited by itsinthegame
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by Chameleon:
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:


He is starting his hands before his hips


This is nonsense.

Watch the clip. Spend some time before offering nonsensical advice to a well meaning dad.

I would prefer to see some frame by frame video. (I don't know how to get video off youtube yet)
The kid uses his hands pretty darn well.

I would leave him alone. Let his body mature. Let him learn to become more explosive within what he's doing. In other words....let him learn to load and unload what he's already doing. Don't have him change to a new pattern or a new concept.

And tell the coaches and friends to ---DELETED OBSCENITY---




I never said he didn't use his hands well, I just said he moved them before his hips. He was asking why his son was having trouble pulling the ball with power. He can hit the way he is the rest of his life as far as I'm concerned.
T tfox100+ posts
It looks to me like his first motion is back toward the catcher with his hands and arms causing him to arm bar,which in turn makes his swing longer making him a little late.


At least when I paused it,I was seeing that.

His front elbow should be working forward and up before it straightens out and it doesn't.

That's just my opinion and I am a nobody,not even an internet guru.
T tfox100+ posts
Secondly,has the coach ever made an effort to correct the problem other than just saying,pull the ball.


This is one of my pet peeves from coaches.


Tell a kid to do something without explaining HOW.

I have dealt with and coached YOUNG kids,4-8 years of age and the first thing I do is go through the mechanics of what is wanted.I like to think it shows in my son when he bats or throws or whatever the case might be.


It is no different for someone older,if they are doing it wrong,telling them to do it right without explaining how will do them absolutely no good.IMO
Last edited by tfox
T TG500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
Even if he makes Varsity 85+ is not common.
My son was also asked to workout with the varsity this summer following 8th grade. He saw a lot of 75-80 in 14U. The varsity coach told him he needs to be able to hit 82-85 consistantly to play varsity. He told him he'll also see studs that throw 85-90 but they won't be the norm.
redbird5redbird510,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by micmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by TripleDad:
It will be 2 3 years before the kid will see mid 80's + with any regularity. He has some time to develop.

I would use this offseason to work on the early bat speed which he does not have. It does take time
and is hard for the younger ones to adgust to it.
But here we are in the off season, good time to go to work on it.



He said he was playing with the Varsity High School team this Summer. We have J.V. players that hit upper 80s here in Louisville with several Varsity players in the area that top 90. I would think they would have at least that in North Carolina.


What do you call "several"? I know that here in Va Beach, we do not have "several" kids hitting upper 80's and 90's and we are as strong as any part of the country in baseball.

In looking at PG's SE Underclass, only a handful of kids hit 90 or even upper 80's.
Last edited by redbird5
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
You're saying he doesn't???


Micmeister, do you understand what segmentation is and how it functions in MLB swings?

Not trying to be hasty with you, just wondering, that's all.... Smile




I know I saw Tony Gwynn Jr. get a hit to tie the game last night by taking the knob of the bat to the ball and flipping his wrists to hit a Trevor Hoffman change-up down the right field line for a triple. It was obvious to me that he was pushing?throwing the bathead at the ball. Also have heard Tony Gwynn analyze Barry Bonds' swing and say he is pulling the knob across his body. You guys say that there is no pulling of the knob and that the swing is an "instantaneous launch and spend," so...I don't believe I need to explain my thoughts to you. But, I believe segmentation is the act of opening the hips and striding forward (if you stride) and scap loading the back elbow. Unload is hip turn, shoulder turn, knob pull to ball, wrist uncock by using bottom hand as a lever while pushing/throwing the sweetspot at and through the ball. In the clip of the kid pulling the ball, his hands start forward way too soon and he got very little help from his hips, IMO. You give him your advice to fix his problem and he can decide which one works. I believe your advice was to leave him alone....maybe until he's 20 or so....when his body matures.
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
quote:
I don't believe I need to explain my thoughts to you.


I understand....Since you took my question in a way it was not intended, I will keep to myself with any more questions I may have had for you.....




If your comment wasn't meant to be a dig, then I appologize. Was what I described as segmentation, what you believe to be segmentation?
baseballbumbaseballbum100+ posts
Nothing with hitting Oppo field. He gets to see the ball longer and rarely strikes out. Sounds alot like my son. The past two years he was letting the ball get deep taking it the other way and up the middle. Today he is much stronger and more mature. He is now pulling balls and hitting where it is pitched. Inside balls are hit hard to the left side and outside pitches are taken the other way. You can teach a kid to pull to LF but I think it is more difficult to teach a kid to consistently hit to the RF. Nothing wrong with this believe me.
HC Hot Corner Dad10+ posts
As the one who started this thread, I wanted to give a quick update. After reading many of the comments on this thread and others, my son having been working on some of the concepts proposed by Chameleon and tom.guerry. In a game last night, after only a couple of batting practice sessions, he had 3 consecutive hits that he "pulled" hard to right field. After the game he told me that was the hardest he had hit the ball in a long time.

So, thanks to all of you for your time and wisdom. I know this forum generates a lot of bickering, but beyond that you are helping kids (and parents) who are serious about improving. Perhaps I'll post more video soon so you can see the things he is working on.
T tom.guerry100+ posts
There is an EXTREMELY important principle at work here which is that you should see almost IMMEDIATE improvement - right away - if the info is right.

Of course, immediate is not the same as "consistent".

IF you are not getting IMMEDIATE improvement, either you don't know what you are supposed to be doing OR you know what it is you need to do but your body isn't douing it OR it is not the right thing to be doing, in which case you need to try something else.

Do NOT let people talk you into idea that it is hard work and you are on the road and it may be different now, but it will be what you want later.

That is WRONG/WRONG/WRONG
B beemax100+ posts
Hot Corner Dad,

I just checked out your son's swing. I think he definitely has an idea about what he's doing at the plate. Glad to hear what Chameleon and tom.guerry suggested is working for you. As for pulling, I didn't learn to pull the ball and get it in the air until I was a junior in high school, and I was 6'3" 180lbs as a freshman.

What I mean by pulling the ball and getting in the air is not necissarily high air, where he would fly out or pop out. I mean a pulled ball that is driven in the gap, down the line, or at least over the infielders heads.

If he is getting hits the other way, I wouldn't be in a hurry to change much. It is when he isn't getting hits that things may need to change.

I know when I am struggling, as a left handed hitter, I am hitting balls on the ground to the right side and popping balls up to the left side. For me, this comes from being too pull conscious.

When I get too pull conscious, my bat is long to the zone and short through it, so I "cut across" a lot of balls the other way. That's where I see a lot of balls sliced to left and not hit hard.

When I do end up pulling the ball (when I am too pull conscious), I roll over almost everything into a left hand hitter's worst nightmare, the 4-3.

Many, many times I can look back to the turning point of myself getting out of a slump to the first time I hit a ball hard the other way. I say that because when that happens, I know that I was short to the ball and long through it. In other terms, I STAYED ON THE BALL.

IMO, listen to what Chameleon said "Don't have him change to a new pattern or a new concept."

He's 14. He looks like he can hit. Let him have success doing what he's doing and let him develop. Good luck to him!
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by tom.guerry:
There is an EXTREMELY important principle at work here which is that you should see almost IMMEDIATE improvement - right away - if the info is right.

Of course, immediate is not the same as "consistent".

IF you are not getting IMMEDIATE improvement, either you don't know what you are supposed to be doing OR you know what it is you need to do but your body isn't douing it OR it is not the right thing to be doing, in which case you need to try something else.

Do NOT let people talk you into idea that it is hard work and you are on the road and it may be different now, but it will be what you want later.

That is WRONG/WRONG/WRONG




I've had two different hitting instructors tell me "you have to get worse before you get better" and I never understood that. So are you saying that isn't true?
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
quote:
I've had two different hitting instructors tell me "you have to get worse before you get better" and I never understood that. So are you saying that isn't true?


Mic,

I believe your opinions are valuable.

Regarding the above here is my opinion FWIW...

If a hitter is successful at a lower level, but you detect something that will keep him from being successful at a higher level, it is likely the change could cause him to have worse results for a while until the change completely takes over.

However if, a hitter is doing poorly at his present level, a good hitting instructor should be able to make almost immediate improvements in that hitter. This hitter should not "get worse" before getting better!

Then again, there are varying opinions as to what being successful means!

To me, the most important ingredients in hitting are being comfortable and confident, followed by being aggressive yet controlled. All hitting mechanics should result in the above.

A successful hitter who changes something is likely to be a little uncomfortable and less confident for a while.

A hitter who is not successful, is already uncomfortable and lacking confidence. Only one way to go!
M micmeister500+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:

Mic,

I believe your opinions are valuable.

Regarding the above here is my opinion FWIW...

If a hitter is successful at a lower level, but you detect something that will keep him from being successful at a higher level, it is likely the change could cause him to have worse results for a while until the change completely takes over.

However if, a hitter is doing poorly at his present level, a good hitting instructor should be able to make almost immediate improvements in that hitter. This hitter should not "get worse" before getting better!

Then again, there are varying opinions as to what being successful means!

To me, the most important ingredients in hitting are being comfortable and confident, followed by being aggressive yet controlled. All hitting mechanics should result in the above.

A successful hitter who changes something is likely to be a little uncomfortable and less confident for a while.

A hitter who is not successful, is already uncomfortable and lacking confidence. Only one way to go!




Thank you, on both counts! I never could understand that statement, but you've explained it pretty well. I always knew a change in someone's mechanics could cause timing problems and if they were successful before and had confidence in their old swing, that it could cause problems if the changes were made during or too close to the season to regain the confidence. I guess what I would want to know from the instructors here is, what kind of time frame should the turnaround take? Provided the player worked on the changes on a daily basis.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
PG, IMO, if it makes him get worse, you're on the wrong track.....

I've been down that road...Doesn't work....

Tom said the right thing......Better see almost immediate improvement....That does make the info correct.....


Doggie - IMO - that wasnt very good.

What road have you been down? That sounds like a catchy phrase - but it means nothing.

Some guys make adjustments - and they do not see immediate improvement. So I disagree with our resident hitting experts.

Regardless of whether you have the ultimate ability or not - immediate improvements during any change should never be expected.

Of course - In the laboratory - immediate improvement is always expected.

But in real life - in a real game - "Immediate improvement" is pretty unrealistic - though it can sell well!
Last edited by itsinthegame
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
BlueDog,

I'm just guessing here, but perhaps I've worked with much better hitters than you have (maybe not). That would include a large number of professional hitters, some who have played in the Big Leagues.

If you and Tom are saying you can take a kid who is hitting .550 in high school and immediately turn him into a .600 or better hitter by changing his mechanics, that's one thing and you then, I would guess, would not understand the importance of comfort and confidence.

I'm saying the .550 hitter who you believe will not hit well at the highest levels because of a flaw may need to hit .400 or less for awhile in high school before it all falls into place. Especially from a mental perspective, let alone everything becoming habitual.

Now if someone can't hit and is having no success and is hitting .200 in high school... I believe any good hitting instructor should be able to see immediate results and improvement.

Sorry to use the batting average thing, but don't know how else to describe it or make a point.
Last edited by PGStaff
T tfox100+ posts
I agree with everything PG says here.

There will always be a period of adjustment when trying something new(in any avenue of life),if for no other reason,your body is used to doing it one way and needs to learn the muscle memory that is needed for the change.

Some things may be quicker than others.Some people are different as well.

Now,if the change doesn't yield results in a timely manner,then maybe a different approach should be taken.
P PGStaff10,000+ posts
Not always good at defining things, but IMO...

There is improvement in the cage and there is improvement in the game. (There you go "its"!)

In the cage things can be controlled by the instructor and we can see immediate improvement or at least we should. In the game things are controlled by the hitter. I believe you yourself said something to that effect earlier. It could take some time to see the "results" in the actual games for some.

There is much more to hitting than the mechanics of the swing. You also know this because again you mentioned earlier something about, you need to teach feel in hitting. I actually understood that... But I think you will agree... true feel, whether on a pool table, shooting a basketball, hitting a golf ball, or that involved in hitting a baseball isn't something "mastered" over night or in one hitting lesson.

Maybe improvement is the wrong word because it is my belief that someone can be improving without seeing immediate "game" results. A good scout might see this improvement, while the players coach might prefer to stay with the old results. In the end the hitter improves and sometimes its the next coach who benefits the most.

This might sound a bit crazy, but I do think it is more common to get results faster with pitchers in some cases. That is because pitchers don't have to adjust and react as much as hitters do.

That's my 2 cents worth. Might not be worth much, but I guarantee it cost me more than 2 cents to write it. Smile
OLDSLUGGER8OLDSLUGGER81,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:

There is much more to hitting than the mechanics of the swing. You also know this because again you mentioned earlier something about, you need to teach feel in hitting. I actually understood that... But I think you will agree... true feel, whether on a pool table, shooting a basketball, hitting a golf ball, or that involved in hitting a baseball isn't something "mastered" over night or in one hitting lesson. Smile


****

I spent some time reading most of the hitting threads. I admire the effort put forth by some, but it felt like I was cramming for a physics exam. Geez Whiz !!

You hit with your eyes, you hit with your hands, and you hit with your heart(passion).

Many of the gifts needed to be a polished hitter came the day the player was born. Athleticism and off the charts hand-eye coordination the two main components.

I am no hitting guru, but spent part of the past 4 years watching one turn a very good hitter into a more consistent better hitter.

The player already had the tools so the tricks were easy to adapt to.

I quote PG at the start of this post because he is 100% right on.

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