Osama bin Laden

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Originally posted by Matt13:

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Originally posted by coach2709:
The only way for terrorism to be stopped is for the Middle East to develop strong stable governments and economies. Whether they are democratic, communist, socialist, monarchies or whatever - they need leadership that will take a stand against terrorism while unifying their people.

That is exactly what needs to happen. Empowerment of a general population (or at least the self-perception of empowerment) and relative economic stability are paramount in mitigating the potential for terrorism.

But how do you do that without going in, taking over, restructuring everything and turning it over to them? Doing this would take decades at best. In America we have two major parties who have their own agendas but can come together on things. But it's a mish mash of religious beliefs under the Christian umbrella. Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, or whatever come together to make our government work. We set aside our religion for our society. They can't / won't / don't know how to do that in the middle east. They don't have that dividing line between government and religion like we do.

I feel we take the separation of church and state too far but I would rather have it like that than what we see in the middle east. As someone earlier posted the Islamic faith is about conversion and those who don't should be slain - how do you change that when it's basically a political statement?

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Let's use routine-activities theory here, since you have a law-enforcement background. We know the three components of crime:

1. Motivated offender
2. Suitable target
3. Lack of a capable guardian

Matt, you are going to have to dumb down your conversation. Remember, you are debating with a 25 year veteran of law enforcement, half of which was spent in uniform and the other half a plain clothes detective. I dealt with some of the cruelest, mentally insane, antisocial animals known to man. What is written as gospel in college text books on criminology is pathetically bereft of any actual application in real life. The components of a crime to me are an actor with intent, committing a prohibited act or omission knowingly, negligently or recklessly upon a victim. It is not a given that a crime is the result of a "rational choice." Some the of best criminals I met did it out of instinct with very little thought. There is only one way to keep the criminal from committing crimes.....lock him up or kill him. He may rehabilitate himself but it will not be because he suddenly gains respect for his poor victims. Remember we are not talking about shop lifters here, these are terrorists...animals.

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mitigate those circumstances in which moderate or pre-radical Muslims turn towards extremism. In fact, this is a large part of how Al-Qaeda was run out of Iraq while I was there.

That is a small part of the problem ! The moderates have to step up and report the recruiters which often occurs in Mosques . Until they are unafraid to reveal those who radicalize Muslims , we have to be vigilant and in fact we have been doing a good job so far.
We have Muslims who are speaking out and they are under death threats daily. Read Terek Fatah who is an Iranian Muslim who wrote "The Jew is not my enemy "

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Originally posted by PA Dino:
Matt, you are going to have to dumb down your conversation. Remember, you are debating with a 25 year veteran of law enforcement, half of which was spent in uniform and the other half a plain clothes detective. I dealt with some of the cruelest, mentally insane, antisocial animals known to man.

Because of my intelligence background, I worked strictly organized crime, and I'm not talking the Mafia. I'm talking those groups that engage in dirtier activities--mostly gangs, some other groups. Rapes, murders (especially retaliatory,) brutal assaults, all in the name of maintaining power through fear. These types of people are not unknown to me. However, had these people not been members of these groups in the first place, their general motivation and/or ability to commit these acts would have been lessened or non-existent.

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Originally posted by PA Dino:
It is not a given that a crime is the result of a "rational choice." Some the of best criminals I met did it out of instinct with very little thought.

I didn't mention rational-choice theory, though.

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Originally posted by PA Dino:
He may rehabilitate himself but it will not be because he suddenly gains respect for his poor victims. Remember we are not talking about shop lifters here, these are terrorists...animals.

Again, we aren't talking about those who are already motivated to commit acts like these. We are talking about those who have the potential to become this way, and we are talking about the general population, not specific people.

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Originally posted by coach2709:
But how do you do that without going in, taking over, restructuring everything and turning it over to them? Doing this would take decades at best. In America we have two major parties who have their own agendas but can come together on things. But it's a mish mash of religious beliefs under the Christian umbrella. Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, or whatever come together to make our government work. We set aside our religion for our society. They can't / won't / don't know how to do that in the middle east. They don't have that dividing line between government and religion like we do.

It can be done, and has been done in some areas. It can't necessarily be done at the point of a gun, but by enhancing the potential for development. There is also a large sentiment of nationalism and Pan-Arabism that is more potent than religion in a lot of the Middle East. Unfortunately, Pan-Arabism will lead to a displacement of conflict within the Middle East, but it will be a bit more stable within countries.

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What about the women? Even though they are terribly suppressed in most Middle Eastern cultures I think the 'maternal instinct' is universal. Is there any hope of changing hearts and minds in the Middle East through persuading the mothers in the region to work towards altering their course. Can they embolden the moderate thinking citizens in their countries to step up and become more influential?

Just wondering. That's all.



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"The uncle recalled her pleas:

"For God’s sake uncle let me go. Please don’t throw me into the well. What did I do to be killed? Uncle! Please help, help…don’t kill me."

The would-be fiancee, who spoke with Ma'an on condition on anonymity because he had just recently signed a marriage contract with a new family, was devastated by the news.

"This is not an uncle, neither is he a human being even. He is brutal. How did he imagine that bluff about an [improper] relationship between me and her? What baseless imaginations led him to that conclusion? How can a sensitive, mature and educated girl meet such an end? May God take revenge for her!" he said"

The solution is in those who are being victimized by their own fanatic people . It is in educating the moderates like you are trying to do in Ieaq and Afghanistan . It will take decades to solve !
Incest is a major problem in places like the Gaza strip and is being covered up as suicides and honor killing . There is a segment of Muslim societies that want peace but they are being victimized and terrorized by radicals and forced into strict Sharia laws

GW Golda Meir stated that peace would only come in Gaza when they loved their children more than they hate the Jews.
Believe it or not many women encourage their children to do suicide bombings and are often present when their children are murdered by their Fathers and In-laws.
It is very strange to us and you have to understand what makes them tick.

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Because of my intelligence background, I worked strictly organized crime, and I'm not talking the Mafia. I'm talking those groups that engage in dirtier activities--mostly gangs, some other groups. Rapes, murders (especially retaliatory,) brutal assaults, all in the name of maintaining power through fear.

Matt I don't think this type of organized crime compares to terrorists and their affiliates. The motivating factor in the above groups is competition for turf or space in the marketplace not idealism. Terrorist groups are motivated by simple hatred of a common people based on radical religion, thoughts and principles foreign to that people and possibly jealousy of ones stature or affluence in world society. I understand your educated approach and that it is based on some level of experience with the intelligence community, whether that is simply in gathering and dissemination of information in a support role for those that are infiltrating these groups or perhaps you are on the inside.

Whatever the case may be, the approach you are suggesting calls for a plan of action that would allow thieves to enter the house, steal all the property and burn it down, long before the thieves would decide for themselves that it's something they just don't want to do anymore. The thieves have to be shot when they are approaching the door, if you live in Texas or as they go out the window, if you live elsewhere.

You want to set up a regional help center for thieves where they would be given all the property that they want and shown that the evil rich people are voluntarily giving up their property just to make the thieves more comfortable. I say that your method would create one massive cancerous world bully and we would be getting our milk stolen from us at lunch time every day. You haven't mentioned the word "appeasement" but what you are suggesting smells all too familiar and that mistake has been made repeatedly over the course of world history. Chamberlain was misguided in trying to assuage Germany's quest for retribution after the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler became nothing but a terrorist.

PA Dino I agree !

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I'm conflicted about this, but I feel a little weird about all the fanfare surrounding a human being's death.

Try this. Go to youtube and look up the videos of 911 as it happened and put yourself in that place and time as you watch the video as you are older now. I'm assuming you were in about the 5th or 6th grade when this happened and may not fully comprehend what happened that day as you might today and get a little different perspective on why everyone who lived thru that day of terror and not knowing where the next attack was coming from as the events unfolded.

For those of us who knew people that were killed in the attacks and those like myself living close to ground zero and being a regular traveller of the bridges and tunnels, it might clear up some of the conflict on why people are very satisfied that bin Laden is dead. This is the best result because had he still been alive, it would've only opened up a can of worms including a long drawn out process in the legal system costing taxpayers millions of dollars to try this madman....No, killing bin Laden won't bring back the 3,000+ he murdered or stop other extremists who's goal is to kill Americans but it does close a dark chapter in American history.

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Thanks for the insight Bobble. It's a tough nut alright. And decades is the proper timeline.



Has anyone seen the Owner's Manual for this device?




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quote:

Originally posted by PA Dino:
Whatever the case may be, the approach you are suggesting calls for a plan of action that would allow thieves to enter the house, steal all the property and burn it down, long before the thieves would decide for themselves that it's something they just don't want to do anymore. The thieves have to be shot when they are approaching the door, if you live in Texas or as they go out the window, if you live elsewhere.

You want to set up a regional help center for thieves where they would be given all the property that they want and shown that the evil rich people are voluntarily giving up their property just to make the thieves more comfortable. I say that your method would create one massive cancerous world bully and we would be getting our milk stolen from us at lunch time every day. You haven't mentioned the word "appeasement" but what you are suggesting smells all too familiar and that mistake has been made repeatedly over the course of world history. Chamberlain was misguided in trying to assuage Germany's quest for retribution after the Treaty of Versailles. Hitler became nothing but a terrorist.

I'm not saying that we should ignore the immediate threat--to continue with this analogy, we should still seek out terrorists and criminals. What I'm saying is we need to not just do that; we need to portray the image that we want and make radicalization less attractive--similar to community-oriented policing. As we both know, COP is not an end in and of itself; it needs to be integrated into a strategic plan that allows for a variety of tools to accomplish long-term goals. Those tools include everything from "winning the hearts and minds" to bug-squashing, and knowing which tool(s) to use in which situation. Sometimes it takes a carrot, sometimes it takes a stick.

Do you realize that most American Muslims who become radicalized are often successful educated people ?
We just jailed one who was a Doctor, played hockey with friends and had a family ! Omar Kadr born and raised in Canada at 14 trained in Pakistan and killed a US medic. His father and 1 brother were killed in Afghanistan and his last brother was jailed for terrorist activities.
I honestly think they don't like carrots !Bin Laden was a wealthy man .
I understand what you are saying and some want a peaceful existence, but many do not ! The trick is to figure out which one you are dealing with . We cannot use North American logic on them.
I think for most part we are doing a great job and it is a long fight. I have to believe that those I know who lost their lives were believing in what they were doing in Iraq and Afghanistan .

Google this and watch the video !

"Muslim congressman weeps at terror hearing
Controversial hearing reignites debate over how to combat homegrown Islamic terrorism "

Very interesting Congressional sub committee hearing called by Peter King .

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Here you go Bobble. I think that's the video you were referring to.

And here is Rep. King being interviewed on Fox News.



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Community policing is an utter failure for various reasons.

The crux of the problem as I learned in vacation bible school is that Cain killed Abel with a leg of a table and things have been screwed up ever since.

I'm going to keep shooting the groundhogs that dig large craters in my pasture. You keep trying to convince them that they ought to stop. But if you ever change your mind I've got an extra rifle in my gun case just for you.

Here are the blue prints to Bin Laden's house in Pakistan.

Blueprints to Bin Laden's House

Is this really a "million dollar home"? Whatever happened to "location, location, location"?

GW that is the one !

Here is another one of my favorites "watch?v=d5En3byJa9g"
This is a debate between Anthony D'Amato and Ruth Wedgwood on the legality of Israel intercepting the "Freedom Flotilla" headed to breach the Gaza blockade !
Anthony teaches Int Law at North Western and if my son was in his class I would remove him immediately !
The current law of blockades and naval conflict adhered to by the USA is the San Remo Manual 1994. He clearly doesn`t seem to realize the law while Ruth does. It also under sec 102 allows for a military blockade of a hostile territory like Gaza under Hamas .
In 2005 Israel pulled out of Gaza under the Disembarkation agreement with the Palestinian Authority which was over seen by the USA . In 2007 Hamas violently over threw the PA and declared èffective control`of Gaza ! Israel then declared Gaza a hostile territory and secured the borders by a military naval blockade .
Isreal under sec 97 & 98 has the right to intercept a vessel in Int waters even suspected of breaching the blockade and to redirect the vessels to their port to be inspected and under sec 103 is obligated to deliver such aid after inspection free of charge accompanied by a humanitarian group such as The Red Cross !
Israel acted within the law but has been wrongly condemed for what it has the right to do. The law also allows for the aid vessel to be attacked id it clearly avoids the oder to stop for inspection.
This is very relevant as a new flotilla is preparing to set sail in early June. It is larger and at this point it is an act of war against Israel ! Misguided Americans & Canadians are taking part in it and it could create a real nightmare. The whole region is a time bomb !

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"The crux of the problem as I learned in vacation bible school is that Cain killed Abel with a leg of a table and things have been screwed up ever since."

Ain't that the truth!







And here's the link to your video Bobble.

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Want A Good Laugh?

Try not to fall out of your chair when you read the line that implies Hillary could be "sexually suggestive."

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I wonder how manypeople know that the UN Human rights Council has some of the worst offenders on it !
China , Angola and many others . Libya was just removed.
The Council has racists like Richard Falk who is an American Lawyer and a Law Professor and a 911 truther. Richard Goldstone who is a hanging judje from South Africa who led the UN HRC fact finding report that condemned the Israelis Defense Force for targeting civilians during Cast Lead a retaliatory attack on Hamas in Gaza killing 1385 Palestinians. 705 militants were killed and the rest were civilians . Hamas hides behind civilians a breach of the Laws of War ! Goldstone later retracted his opinion and now says he can no longer support his original opinion that IDF target civilians.
You should follow "UNWATCH" to see what has become of the once proud UN !

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Hmmm?

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IF WE WANT POLITICAL RANTING WE CAN GO ELSEWHERE

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Like to another thread perhaps?


THE KIDS TODAY DO NOT RANT ENOUGH !!!!!

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quote:

THE KIDS TODAY DO NOT RANT ENOUGH !!!!!

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I am enjoying this thread and learning quite alot from all of the different perspectives being posted. With that said I would have no problem with this thread being transferred down to the loony lair (Unusually Unusual forum).




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Osama bin Laden would have made a great crafty left handed pitcher, if we could have just gotten him to put that AK47 down. Then again, nobody would have been able to find him when it was his turn in the rotation. How's that TR?

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Originally posted by BobbleheadDoll:
I wonder how many people know that the UN Human rights Council has some of the worst offenders on it !
...China

Yeah, but China makes everything for walmart so I can live better.

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I know what you mean Antz!

The Chinese make the best Pritchel and Hardy hole in the world!




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Ha, now the government wants us to receive mandatory text messages from the President.

Thank goodness this wasn't in place when Clinton was in office. We already have enough trouble with our teenagers "sexting."

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"Ha, now the government wants us to receive mandatory text messages from the President."

Such unilateral behavior...he's a real cowboy!



GDY YP!




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More info on hmmm.

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quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
IF WE WANT POLITICAL RANTING WE CAN GO ELSEWHERE

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