Kid called out on strikes, refuses to leave field and argues with umpire. Coach yells at him to get in the dugout. Coach goes out to plate and gets player grabbing him by back of neck. Parents call cops. Coach charged with assault and battery. This will be another quality high school baseball coach in Massachusetts removed from coaching.
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At times i sympathize with those who say parents should be banned from kids sports.
I'm going to be in the minority. But I think the parenting that would lead to this type of behavior is a bigger problem. And then to condone the behavior by calling the police was just what I needed to hear to confirm they're a problem.
The coach will be called an abuser. He will lose his job. He will cost the school a big lawsuit. Another player from a decade ago will come forward and say he moved him forcefully while trying to position him in practice, or yelled at him everyday and it effected this mental wellbeing. It will make things worse.
To tell me that the coach violently and maliciously put his hands on the player is probably a stretch. But it doesn't matter. Assault and coach don't go well together in the same sentence. The reality of it is that if the parents didn't raise a brat who thought his tantrum was acceptable, then justify it, none of this wouldn't have ever happened.
FWIW - the coach knows what year it is. You can't put your hands on a player who is already making a scene and not expect anything to happen.
Long story short: We live in a society of victims. This coach was stupid for doing it knowing the political and social climate.
PABaseball posted:I'm going to be in the minority. But I think the parenting that would lead to this type of behavior is a bigger problem. And then to condone the behavior by calling the police was just what I needed to hear to confirm they're a problem.
The coach will be called an abuser. He will lose his job. He will cost the school a big lawsuit. Another player from a decade ago will come forward and say he moved him forcefully while trying to position him in practice, or yelled at him everyday and it effected this mental wellbeing. It will make things worse.
To tell me that the coach violently and maliciously put his hands on the player is probably a stretch. But it doesn't matter. Assault and coach don't go well together in the same sentence. The reality of it is that if the parents didn't raise a brat who thought his tantrum was acceptable, then justify it, none of this wouldn't have ever happened.
FWIW - the coach knows what year it is. You can't put your hands on a player who is already making a scene and not expect anything to happen.
Long story short: We live in a society of victims. This coach was stupid for doing it knowing the political and social climate.
I agree. In 99% of coach conflicts it is the parents fault but you have to go with the time and know that physical punishment is off the limits nowadays. And it doesn't matter if the kid was actually hurt which he probably wasn't, phyical punishment even if it just symbolic is just not ok.
I know all the talk: kids are overly protected by the parents and then are in for a rude awakening when starting to work, "it didn't hurt americans 50 years ago to occasionally get slapped with the ruler" bla bla but studies have actually shown that phyiscal punishment is very detrimental to child development and later facilitates them punishing their kids phyiscally too which is the reason why society has decided that physical punishment by both parents and teachers is not ok. Contrary to some beliefs not everything was better 50 years ago...
I mean yeah that kid probably was a spoiled brat and maybe his parents are idiots who reinforce that behaviour but the coach should have known better. Just because his behaviour was considered ok 50 years ago it doesn't mean it forever is. I mean yeah it was normal in post ww2 society that teachers punish kids. My grandmother told me a story that if she told her parents her teacher slapped her with the ruler then the parents would give the kid another smack without even asking what happened because they just assumed the teacher was right doing it, nobody questioned whether the kid was treated fairly.
I can understand some want those times back considering how little respect and discipline some kids show but it really is good that those days are gone. Physical violence might have a short term positive effect on kid behaviour but it is just out of fear and creating dysfuncional relationships.
Coaches need to go with the time and adapt to certain developments. You can complain as much as you want about "liberal society" but it is as it is.
I’ll guess when the kid wouldn’t leave the plate the coach cupped his hand around the back if the neck and pushed him towards the bench. It was probably better then grabbing him by the front of the jersey or in a Full Nelson. The coach was probably trying to get his player out of there before he got tossed.
I’ve sat in the stands at this school’s football games. They’re a football, hockey and baseball powerhouse. They’re one of the Catholic private schools that doesn’t (wink, wink) recruit and competes against public high schools for section and state titles. At least they’re in a conference of Catholics that don’t (wink, wink) recruit.
Do people understand the difference between Catholic privates and Catholic high schools? The difference is 10-15K per year. It’s a parade of Mercedes, Beemers and Volvo’s to their games. There’s a sense of entitlement and superiority at schools like this. Westwood is near Foxboro. Almost every son of Patriot’s players old enough to be in high school play(ed) football there.
When my son was a soph he was punched out with the bases loaded on a 3-2 pitch that was a few inches off the plate. He turned to the ump and said, “What the” and stopped. His coach yelled at him. He told him to shut up and get in the dugout.” When it was time to go back in the field he was told to stay on the bench.
After the game my son complained to me he didn’t need to be yanked from the game. I only responded, “Yes, you did.” End of conversation.
FWIW, coach was dealing with a bad apple. Same kid was suspended at tryouts for talking back to the coach and swearing at him.
Acceptable behavior in a classic confrontation.
In one corner bratty player with protective parents and in the other a coach that is that will put hands on players and I would expect doesn't have much problem with bashing them verbally either.
Explosive mix unlikely to end well and it did not. Two wrongs do not make for right result. If true about coach being handsy and mouthy it probably meant it was only a matter of time before he ran into the wall AKA Bobby Knight. Kids are going to be brattier and more empowered due not only to parents backing them up but the cell phone.
Coaches have had the benefit of the doubt forever whenever conflict about what happens in these kind of interactions. That started to change about 5 to 10 years ago and the threads of this nature started to spark some pretty intense debates.
The cell phone video of profane dress downs of players started to come out. So the argument of coaches need to be tough vs. sneaky kids or abusive coaches vs. powerless kids ensued. IMO coaches have the power. They have the ultimate weapon in the lineup card. They never have to say a word - just not put a player in the game and they win the fight without ever having to resort to anything else. Players understand playing vs. bench.
There are other dynamics at play though. A coach that tolerates a mouthy player that undercuts his authority will eventually be weakened as players become emboldened to challenge everything. There are lines that need to be established for a team to function effectively. Here is where the 2nd of the coaches advantages comes into play. He can dismiss players entirely. In order for him to be able to use this tool he must be beyond reproach. He needs to be able to say - I communicated rules/expectations to players and parents. I followed those rules and applied them evenly to everyone on the team. Player X violated these rules in this way on these dates. I took these actions and behavior was not changed. I must remove player from team.
If coach does not use this approach or is seen as volatile in any way verbally or physically - he will lose. If any of this sounds familiar it is because it is the Code of Conduct in every workplace in America today.
We can argue about the merits of today's culture but IMO the past is riddled with abuse that needed to end. Pendulums swing and often come back the other way too far before swinging back to the middle and eventually get to the appropriate place. My feeling is we are going thorugh that process and hopefully we find our way to a solutions to these problems that yield good results and I for one still have faith it will happen even if there are some odd or even bad individual outcomes in the process.
Well if it is a travesty of justice, the player's family will be scrutinized and the kid will leave the school. This works both ways.
This entire story from the jackass kid, to ridiculous parents, to a coach not thinking clearly, to a DA who obviously has no common sense, to people thinking there is any logic here at all.
We are becoming a country of pussies - it is sad.
Teacher and Coach for 18-25 years deserves a break.
As wrong as he was, he should be removed for the balance of the season. Apologize at an Assembly and move on.
The Message will be understood, and the forgiving nature that is Christian will be reinforced.
Say 200 “Hail Mary’s” and report to JUG
Will be interesting to see how the rest of the team reacts to this. If they feel the player was in the wrong, which I suspect, will they continue to play with him on the team and their coach sitting at home?
Truly a sad day for HS baseball. A coach crossed the line but is probably an old school coach and a player who feels entitled. I struggle to coach today. I constantly find myself not being me. In fact, we played last week and a former player came up and mentioned to me that he saw just how much this type of stuff is wearing me out. Ultimately, a serious competitor such as myself and I would imagine this coach since he has lasted so long at that position are going to be phased out. At my retirement banquet, I have players and colleagues all lining up to roast me. Not one of those stories could happen today. NOT ONE and yet, those people will be talking about trips to state, state championships, turning losing programs around, ... Believe me, it is the same in the classroom. I'll wrap this post up by saying that in the middle of last week, I apologized to my team because I feel much less the coach than I was a decade ago. I'm 62 but that isn't why. I am trying to make it to retirement without getting fired. To say that these last couple of years have not been as much fun is an understatement and I love coaching. I feel for this coach. I know he probably regrets that he had to touch that player. He knows it is over for him. I would guess he still loves it and so, it will hurt him deeply.
Love the aerial shot of the "crime scene" from a freaking helicopter. Seriously??? Is this what the HS baseball coaching environment has become?
Too bad the coach didn't flee in a white Bronco.
I would think by now, people would understand that they can never put their hands on anyone for any reason, other than maybe self defense. Probably not even for self defense when it's between an adult and a minor. Justified or not. It's the society in which we live.
life4orce posted:FWIW, coach was dealing with a bad apple. Same kid was suspended at tryouts for talking back to the coach and swearing at him.
That was his real mistake. Not cutting the kid right then & there, and moving on. Play with the Devil you gotta deal with the Devil.
life4orce posted:FWIW, coach was dealing with a bad apple. Same kid was suspended at tryouts for talking back to the coach and swearing at him.
I had this conversation with fellow coach earlier this year about a young man trying out for team with big red flags in regards to his character and off field choices. My thought: "Let's just cut him. End of issue." HC replies: "Yeah, but I can't deny he is my best player at that position." My reply: "SO?????????"
This tide might turn when HC's actually do take character into account when assessing a player at tryouts. Cutting the best player due to documented character issues may lose you some games I agree, but it may also save you some jail time.
I had a young man enter HS his freshman year with a terrible reputation. In fact, I was told by the middle school basketball staff to cut him. The quote stated to me was that, "this young man is foul." I didn't cut him. He was trouble. I got after him. He turned the corner. In HS baseball, he was a stud. Whenever he started to get into trouble, I was called. He listened to me and turned his life around. His twin brother did not listen to me. He went to prison while the brother that did listen to me went the pitch in MLB for several years. You can't just write kids off.
I do not have a stance, because I did not see that happened. I have seen many times where a coach removes a player by putting his arm on the players shoulder and his hand on the back of the neck and guide the player off the field, why talking to him. Probably not what happened in this case.
However when the kid refused to leave the field, how should he have been removed?
If he got tossed and still refused to leave, how do you handle it? How would the Ump handle it?
Sooooo I'm not saying laying hands on the kid was right but what happens if he refuses to leave the field even after coach tells him too? How does this situation end? Obviously this kid is done but how do you make him leave if he refuses to?
As an adult, you never touch a kid. If you use force in that setting, with a crowd watching, even if the kid is throwing a fit you are going to get in trouble. He will be charged and I would think fired when the headmaster said it was assault. I think you just let the kid stand at home plate and make a scene. When he gets tossed, you just let him continue to show his rear end and then you have reason to release him. I think defending the coach is also wrong. You lay your hands on a kid and you need to be fired. Not old school logic just wrong, abuse. I know it used to be done but it was wrong then. And if you are doing it, then you are wrong.
I will agree there are some hard kids to coach but never a right to touch them.
ECoachB25 posted:I had a young man enter HS his freshman year with a terrible reputation. In fact, I was told by the middle school basketball staff to cut him. The quote stated to me was that, "this young man is foul." I didn't cut him. He was trouble. I got after him. He turned the corner. In HS baseball, he was a stud. Whenever he started to get into trouble, I was called. He listened to me and turned his life around. His twin brother did not listen to me. He went to prison while the brother that did listen to me went the pitch in MLB for several years. You can't just write kids off.
I 100% agree. As a matter of fact, I believe it’s part of the job. However, in today’s climate you are taking on a liability. One that can come around to bite you.
However becoming a “character czar” is a slippery slope too. A lot easier simply assessing tools
No easy answers in this climate.
Simply in the last 10-years, a LOT has changed.
BishopLeftiesDad posted:I do not have a stance, because I did not see that happened. I have seen many times where a coach removes a player by putting his arm on the players shoulder and his hand on the back of the neck and guide the player off the field, why talking to him. Probably not what happened in this case.
However when the kid refused to leave the field, how should he have been removed?
If he got tossed and still refused to leave, how do you handle it? How would the Ump handle it?
Police are called and they put hand on back of kid’s neck and lead him to back of squad car. He is charged w public disturbance. Dad lawyers up. Charges get dropped. Dad sues everyone. Including HC for putting son in that situation. HC’s career still over.
Hammer823 posted:I would think by now, people would understand that they can never put their hands on anyone for any reason, other than maybe self defense. Probably not even for self defense when it's between an adult and a minor. Justified or not. It's the society in which we live.
Check this out. A few years ago I listened in on a webinar about sexual harassment/sensitivity training for upper management. It was highly suggested that a male upon meeting a female in a business setting refrain from shaking her hand, unless she extends her hand out FIRST. Really? Now upon introductions, I glance down to see if her hand is extended first. Food for thought. Today's kids are tomorrow's parents.....
It doesn't matter whether he cupped his neck and made him walk off the field or if he pick him up by the neck and threw him 20ft into the dugout. They're both considered assault today. That is a problem that goes far beyond baseball. All it takes is one sensitive parent to perceive something as assault and it's over for the coach. Police show up, he gets arrested every time. Parents call the paper and HS Coach Assaults Player is the headline. It's already over at that point. He didn't even have to do anything. Because the school knows the conversation will be - isn't that the coach who assaulted his player? Even if he didn't.
Trust In Him posted:Hammer823 posted:I would think by now, people would understand that they can never put their hands on anyone for any reason, other than maybe self defense. Probably not even for self defense when it's between an adult and a minor. Justified or not. It's the society in which we live.
Check this out. A few years ago I listened in on a webinar about sexual harassment/sensitivity training for upper management. It was highly suggested that a male upon meeting a female in a business setting refrain from shaking her hand, unless she extends her hand out FIRST. Really? Now upon introductions, I glance down to see if her hand is extended first. Food for thought. Today's kids are tomorrow's parents.....
I no longer will close my office door when having a meeting with anyone, male or female. I want everyone to be able to hear and see what goes on, just to be safe. We live in an era where society has weaponized anyone's word regarding harassment, whether it is true or not.
coach2709 posted:Sooooo I'm not saying laying hands on the kid was right but what happens if he refuses to leave the field even after coach tells him too? How does this situation end? Obviously this kid is done but how do you make him leave if he refuses to?
As an official I would eject the player for unsportsmanlike conduct. Then wait to restart the game until he left the playing field. If he didn't leave I would have someone contact the school resource officer or local pd to remove him.
CoachB25 posted:I had a young man enter HS his freshman year with a terrible reputation. In fact, I was told by the middle school basketball staff to cut him. The quote stated to me was that, "this young man is foul." I didn't cut him. He was trouble. I got after him. He turned the corner. In HS baseball, he was a stud. Whenever he started to get into trouble, I was called. He listened to me and turned his life around. His twin brother did not listen to me. He went to prison while the brother that did listen to me went the pitch in MLB for several years. You can't just write kids off.
And this is what high school athletics is all about.
"Last night he was okay to the extent that we could see visibly, and by that I mean it wasn’t the type of case where we show up and someone has broken bone, thank god, or bleeding or a black eye, something that required medical attention," Westwood Police Chief Jeffrey Silva said. “It was an unconsented to touching, and therefore it's an assault and battery."
Coach, don’t touch me. I want to stay and argue with the umpire. Coach you touched me. Someone call the cops. <sarcasm
In retrospect the coach should have left the kid at the plate to make an ass of himself and get suspended by the MIAA. It’s what coaches will do in the future. It’s not fair to the umpires. But what coach wants to get arrested and possibly banned from coaching.
Parents wonder where the good coaches have gone. They’re instructing at academies instead of risking getting arrested coaching brats. And the pay is better. It has to be at least minimum wage.,
Too many parents feel no embarrassment over their own child's behavior. This appears to be one of those times.
PABaseball posted:It doesn't matter whether he cupped his neck and made him walk off the field or if he pick him up by the neck and threw him 20ft into the dugout. They're both considered assault today. That is a problem that goes far beyond baseball. All it takes is one sensitive parent to perceive something as assault and it's over for the coach. Police show up, he gets arrested every time. Parents call the paper and HS Coach Assaults Player is the headline. It's already over at that point. He didn't even have to do anything. Because the school knows the conversation will be - isn't that the coach who assaulted his player? Even if he didn't.
This is so true and so sad. The pendulum has swung too far.
Dominik said...
"I can understand some want those times back considering how little respect and discipline some kids show but it really is good that those days are gone. Physical violence might have a short term positive effect on kid behaviour but it is just out of fear and creating dysfuncional relationships.
Coaches need to go with the time and adapt to certain developments. You can complain as much as you want about "liberal society" but it is as it is."
I agree that people need to adapt but I don't agree in totality that "it really is good that those days are gone". There has been much needed positive progress in many ways but, as I said, there are also too many circumstances where the pendulum has swung too far and we need to work back in those areas toward reason and common sense. Those put in position of authority need to be given reasonable leeway to be the person in charge. If a kid is being a completely spoiled stubborn brat and decides to sit down and pout, disrupting the activity of the group, the person in charge should have every right to (without abuse) remove him from that place. Sometimes, physical removal is the only alternative. Again, this can be done without abuse. Unfortunately, there are those now who would consider a tug on the sleeve to be abuse or violence. Ridiculous. As Coach2709 said, what are you supposed to do if the kid won't leave? Cancel the game?
If it was my son, I would have thanked the coach because I would have been arrested for something worse than assualt
Probably was. PABaseball posted:It doesn't matter whether he cupped his neck and made him walk off the field or if he pick him up by the neck and threw him 20ft into the dugout. They're both considered assault today. That is a problem that goes far beyond baseball. All it takes is one sensitive parent to perceive something as assault and it's over for the coach. Police show up, he gets arrested every time. Parents call the paper and HS Coach Assaults Player is the headline. It's already over at that point. He didn't even have to do anything. Because the school knows the conversation will be - isn't that the coach who assaulted his player? Even if he didn't.
Heck, the school principal is using the word “assault,” in the TV interview. Basically, the principal is already saying in his own cafeteria the next day, “Hey isn’t that our coach who assaulted our student?” The principal, Brother Whatever, even goes on to say, “The student did nothing wrong.” Wow.
Now it’s the coach’s turn to play the victim card. He graduated and played baseball at the very school. Gee, who do u think he learned to coach from? Who was his coaching role model? Probably another long tenured coach like him. Maybe that’s how that guy coached? Maybe he was “physical” with his players back in the 80’s. Time for this coach to go to therapy and begin “remembering” incidents from his days as a player at the very school now throwing him under the bus and sue them for unwanted touching back in the 80’s.
Someone here already mentioned “JUG,” “Justice Under God.” My Jesuit HS in the 80’s did that. In “after school detention” priests, who were also coaches, made u do all sorts of crap that nowadays would never fly. I bet this HC at Xavierien would know exactly what I’m talking about.
RJM posted:Coach, don’t touch me. I want to stay and argue with the umpire. Coach you touched me. Someone call the cops. <sarcasm
I know you're being sarcastic in this, but want to point out that the kid's response to the coach telling him to get back in the dugout was more like f-off
I agree, and hind sight being 20/20, should have left him out there to hang himself, but then are you labeled as a coach that won't protect his players?
We had a high school coach who was the nicest guy. Kind of guy you want your daughter to marry. The senior ss was replaced in the lineup by a freshman because the senior made a lot of errors. Everyone except the senior and his parents thought it was the best move. The parents would make comments in the stands. The senior was a smart a$$. After the second game that he sat the bench, he went off on the coach. Was cussing the coach, dropped 50 f bombs. Senior said that his parents wanted him to quit the team. Coach was hot and said he didn't care what his parents wanted he wanted to know what he wanted, as the coach poked him in the chest. Parents went to AD, than principal. They knew the kid was a punk and tried to sweep it under the rug. Parents went to the school board and the coach was asked to resign.
Similar but different situation but same logic. Several years ago I had two parents who were both trouble makers all season long. In the semi-finals of a world series, one of them hollered at the other one's son from the stands. They got into it, woman and man, to the extent that they stopped the game. I never left my bucket, had all of it I could take that season. The tournament director came to me and asked me to do something about it. I just looked at him and said call the cops or throw them out I don't care. I have one more game with these parents and we are done. I loved the kids but the parents made it a nightmare. He made them leave the facility, best game we had all year. I told them after the game they were not allowed to come back the next day.
I would have just left the kid at home plate and told the umpires to call the cops or whoever.
I do see the issues this climate creates. Coaches will become less coaches and more glorified baby sitters who will not try to mentor and change lives but instead protect themselves and justify decisions with dishonest excuses.
It basically is protect your own ass first and only secondarily about the kids.
However still the coach crossed a line and made a bad decision.
Last year a coach was fired from his coaching job and his teaching job for something questionable that happened on the field. Is it worth the risk to coach for a 3-5K per season paycheck when you could be putting your 75K teaching job on the line?
At a high school a coach can be stuck coaching entitled brats. At an academy the coach knows 15-18yo players are ballers who are all in on the game. And get paid a lot more than coaching high school.
I know a HS HC who was in his 22nd year of coaching at the same HS he played at and graduated from. I will not go into any details, but let’s just say two decent ball players were kept in the program even though they were questionable character guys (the type that do stupid things after hours as sophomores on the team’s spring break tourney trip). The parent units were high maintenance PIAs and HC did not make a federal case of the “alleged” incident. Knowing how ugly it would get with the parents
HC kept them around. Bad idea. As juniors they and their parents led the charge to oust the HC for something he “allegedly” did while coaching the kids. Harmless I assure you.
They got him fired. HC giving these questionable character guys a second chance came back around to bite him in the a$$. He should’ve kicked them off team, or simply cut them at the next tryouts.
Theyre on team this season as seniors. He is no longer coaching.
and i'm sure all of these kids have done nothing wrong. in the case of xaverian brothers hIgh school, $22,000/year plus a sizable donation worth of nothing wrong.
“The kid was arguing balls and strikes. If you do that you get ejected. The coach wanted to save his player from getting ejected so he walked up behind him and pushed him towards the dugout, and in order to have leverage he used one hand to grab the back of his neck.”
- Witness to Boston 25 News
Gerry Lambert is another one of those coaches who has been at his school since the beginning of time, leaving a long legacy of players behind him who vouch that he was a fundamental part of who they are today.
- Anonymous parent
Just because he was a successful coach does not make this incident right. Just because the kid is an entitled jerk does not make it right for him to grab him by the neck. Just because he was trying to keep him from getting ejected does not make it right. We all do stupid things and there are consequences. He just did it at a game with the parents there and was arrested. He will face the consequences. So many on here who want to say that we are raising a generation of spoiled kids whose parents tell them when they do something wrong that it is ok and they will do what it takes to protect them are doing the same thing with a coach. He put his hands on a teenager and that is wrong so he should be punished and fired not protected. That is not old school coaching that is wrong coaching,. Never a reason to touch a kid in a mean way and grabbing him by the back of the neck and pushing him to the dugout is the wrong way to touch a kid. If you want to go out there and tell him to go to the dugout even in a loud voice I'm fine with that but no reason to touch him. If you want to nicely put your arm around him and walk with him back to the dugout while explaining you need him for the next game I'm fine with that. But to grab him by the neck and push him back to the dugout is wrong whether he is an entitled jerk or not. Stop protecting the bad ones.
I find it amazing how quickly the coach has been prejudged by those that weren't even there and understanding the whole situation. Is he a saint? No, but who in life is? Protecting the bad ones? Seriously?
Reminds me of those so quickly to jump on and vilify those kids from Covington Catholic.
Then explain to us who weren't there something different than the facts stated and video seen. Did he not put hands on the kid?
The coach must've really grabbed him hard by the neck to justify an assault charge. I'm having a hard time picturing the scene, myself. It's hard to do any damage with one hand on the back of the neck, unless the person doing it is out of control. Was the 17yo(I refuse to call him a kid) hurt? Was he shoved to the ground?
As someone who coaches at younger ages myself I have had to educate myself on certain things like spotting concussions, and how not to do certain things that can be taken the wrong way such as having private meetings with a player, or driving them home after practice. Laying hands on them would be right up there as a no-no...hard to believe this guy was ignorant of that, especially seeing as he was a teacher, also.
I have some sympathy for the coach, but he handled this wrong. Neither side covered themselves in glory on this one, but again, without seeing it I hate to give to much of an opinion. I do know that arguing with umpires is unacceptable at our HS. It still happens(rarely), but the player is VERY conscious that he is on thin ice the longer he questions a call. Players can and do get benched for this.
I am being very careful not to give too much so that someone doesn't figure out who the kid is.
Let's describe the mood after the incident. Some of the parents from the opposing team were openly laughing at what had transpired. There were no expressions of concern from injury from either side regarding the incident. I am speaking of the arrest of the coach over the incident. I'm not totally sure the coach was actually arrested, but the police did show up and were investigating.
The videos you see are from news stations sensationalizing the story, as media does. The media was not present at the incident. What they are reporting are from who they could find to interview at the next game, which was the next night.
Keep this in mind as well, and i'm not speaking for anyone or from inside information. Remember there were reports that the administration from Covington Classic were going to expel those kids after initial reports of the incident in DC. What they say immediately after an incident is meant to shield and protect the school.
Where was the home umpire. He is responsible for the game and players, coaches actions. What are the HS rules and the schools rules?
He should have "dismissed" the player for his actions on the "strike" call.
Bob
The home umpire did not have control the whole game. He let both sides chirp throughout. The catcher had some words during this as well.
You still have not answered the question and it appears you were there and had a vested interest in the coach. Did the coach lay his hands on the kid? Simple question.
PitchingFan posted:You still have not answered the question and it appears you were there and had a vested interest in the coach. Did the coach lay his hands on the kid? Simple question.
PitchingFan, of course, you know the answer to your own question and I get what you're saying. But, it's just not that simple.
I meant to state in my previous response, I did not actually see this particular instance and so my comments were in general and not meant to assess right or wrong for the story in question.
However... I went to a local JC game yesterday. I went to support a previous player and some of his former HS teammates that I coached showed up as well, as did a teacher/mom-of-player from the school I where I coached. For each of these players, there was "touching". A hug or two, a friendly slug in the arm, a teasing tug on a particularly long pony tail, etc. For each of the players mentioned, had they pulled a stunt like the player in the story, and they refused to leave the batters box, I would be inclined to make sure they did. It may have included an arm behind the back leading them off. I could envision the hand leading up to the back of the neck, not in what I would consider anything remotely abusive but making sure they knew the direction they needed to go and immediately. Unfortunately, in my "pendulum swung too far" scenario, there are those in society today that are so extremely sensitive and offended by the idea of touch, they scream bloody murder for something previously considered completely appropriate for the situation.
I had a lengthy conversation with the aforementioned teacher. She is loved by 99% of the student body. She, too, is very enthusiastic and very hands on with hugs, pats of encouragement, an occasional friendly "get outta here" shove, etc. She expressed great concern with this very same thing. She recently came under scrutiny for completely harmless, well-intentioned contact. IMO, touch is important to human interaction. These days, people are being conditioned to fear touch of any kind. You can't just say "did the coach lay a hand on him?" and have a black and white answer. Again, the pendulum has swung too far.
CABBAGEDAD, not arguing the fact. I am a pastor so I have to watch everything. Counseling, touching, hugs, words, you name it. Teacher's fears X 100. But as a coach, I was also intentional also to be careful how I interacted with my players and parents. We live in a society where there is a fine line between discipline and abuse. My wife works for social services so we have this discussion all the time and I must admit my view has changed a little with all the stories of kids abuse that she brings home and lives with every day.
Life4Orce says the coach did nothing wrong. I have a hard time believing nothing wrong. I believe he, like most of us who have coached, was wrong but to what degree. After checking up on the coach and watching video of him coaching, talking I would say he is a guy who is old school, tightly wound, and probably used a little too much force to get his point across, whether it was good or bad. Again, he may have been trying to keep the kid from getting into trouble and getting ejected but I strongly doubt he did nothing wrong. Just to what extent.
I reckon I go back to the good old days when I was first officiating football 30 years ago and a coach grabbed a kid, who had been pushed out of bounds at the 1 yard line and into a wire that ran around the field, by the facemask and kicked him in the rear end and told him if he had scored he would not have gotten thrown into the wire. I threw a flag for unsportsmanlike conduct and had to write the coach up. I still to this day do not understand how he kept his job. He treated that kid like a dog and because he won games was accepted. When I say the bad ones, that is the ones I am referring to. You can't win enough games to treat people that way.
I will also say there is appropriate discipline, and I dished that out, and there is inappropriate discipline.
life4orce posted:I find it amazing how quickly the coach has been prejudged by those that weren't even there and understanding the whole situation. Is he a saint? No, but who in life is? Protecting the bad ones? Seriously?
Reminds me of those so quickly to jump on and vilify those kids from Covington Catholic.
Why? The iPhone and mob outrage is what the 21st century is most famous for so far IMO.
Duke Lacrosse, Ferguson MO, Smollett, Kavenaugh, 2016 Election and on and on. No one has ever had to pay a price (yet) for a rush to judgement much less false allegations except the DA in NC who was so far gone he cooked the evidence in court and got caught.
The result is these become free shots - jump in early with full outrage - you will never, ever be held to account for being wrong. Hell chances are years later almost half of the people with still think these things actually happened which proves the power of an allegation or bias going in.
For example for those that do not like the Clintons - they are convinced Whitewater was a thing - it was not - but you will never convince those that believe it is true. That was 25 years ago and probably close to 1/2 the country still thinks Bill & Hillary did something illegal even though they were were exonerated on it.
On the other hand - if you preach patience and let the facts come out and later on it is worse then you thought such as say the Church abuse scandel - then you open yourself up to being part of the problem.
So if people will do what they are incentivized to do (and they do most of the time) condemning first and fast is a much safer move for anyone in power.... so who should be surprised when they do. For poof of this fact look to Trumps reaction to Charlottesville as an example of what happens if you don't - he becomes a Nazi sympathizer for failing to land with both feet in a certain box.
So IMO none of this is very complicated in that regard.
Stopping false allegations and more importantly checking the mob - that is another conversation altogether.
57special posted:The coach must've really grabbed him hard by the neck to justify an assault charge. I'm having a hard time picturing the scene, myself. It's hard to do any damage with one hand on the back of the neck, unless the person doing it is out of control. Was the 17yo(I refuse to call him a kid) hurt? Was he shoved to the ground?
As someone who coaches at younger ages myself I have had to educate myself on certain things like spotting concussions, and how not to do certain things that can be taken the wrong way such as having private meetings with a player, or driving them home after practice. Laying hands on them would be right up there as a no-no...hard to believe this guy was ignorant of that, especially seeing as he was a teacher, also.
I have some sympathy for the coach, but he handled this wrong. Neither side covered themselves in glory on this one, but again, without seeing it I hate to give to much of an opinion. I do know that arguing with umpires is unacceptable at our HS. It still happens(rarely), but the player is VERY conscious that he is on thin ice the longer he questions a call. Players can and do get benched for this.
Assault doesn't start with real injury. A hard slap in the face usually won't do any damage but it definitely is assault.
I was not there to judge the situation and this very well might have been blown out of proportion but if the coach really grabbed the neck he did cross a line even if his intentions were good.
Not a lawyer, but I have a wife who is a school district administrator and deals with the local PD regarding assault and battery more than she should. Assault does not necessarily mean actually touching the person. The threat of an action towards an individual which conveys the threat of physical harm can result in an assault charge. Conversely an assault charge can also be levied for minor unwanted physical contact that does not result in bodily harm. For example a coach putting his hand on the back of a player and pushing them towards the dugout can result in an assault charge even if there was no physical harm.
Generally adding battery to the charge, ie "assault and battery" vs "assault" means that physical harm was done. Using the same example the coach grabbing a player by the neck, squeezing and dragging the player into the dugout would most likely result in some physical pain and then an assault and battery charge will be levied instead of an assault charge.
It also depends on how the state defines "assault" and/or "battery".
In some states assault is defined as the threat of physical harm while battery is the physical touching or striking another person.
Virginia, for example, has merged the two charges - assault and battery are charged as the same offense.
Dominik85 posted:57special posted:The coach must've really grabbed him hard by the neck to justify an assault charge. I'm having a hard time picturing the scene, myself. It's hard to do any damage with one hand on the back of the neck, unless the person doing it is out of control. Was the 17yo(I refuse to call him a kid) hurt? Was he shoved to the ground?
As someone who coaches at younger ages myself I have had to educate myself on certain things like spotting concussions, and how not to do certain things that can be taken the wrong way such as having private meetings with a player, or driving them home after practice. Laying hands on them would be right up there as a no-no...hard to believe this guy was ignorant of that, especially seeing as he was a teacher, also.
I have some sympathy for the coach, but he handled this wrong. Neither side covered themselves in glory on this one, but again, without seeing it I hate to give to much of an opinion. I do know that arguing with umpires is unacceptable at our HS. It still happens(rarely), but the player is VERY conscious that he is on thin ice the longer he questions a call. Players can and do get benched for this.
Assault doesn't start with real injury. A hard slap in the face usually won't do any damage but it definitely is assault.
I was not there to judge the situation and this very well might have been blown out of proportion but if the coach really grabbed the neck he did cross a line even if his intentions were good.
Does touching, at all, constitute assault? Not trying to be argumentative, but am curious. And what constitutes verbal assault?
As i said in my post, I've had to re-educate myself later in life as to what is, and isn't, OK when you coach. Sometimes it seems like the goalposts are moving pretty fast.
I'm sorry, but the facts that 1) the parents called police after their kid was an idiot....and 2) the police pressed charges against the coach....just make me wonder what is wrong with this country. It obviously wasn't "assault and battery". Did he touch the kid....sure....did he maybe squeeze his neck....sure, but that's it. The kid isn't hurt...and there was no intent to harm the kid. In fact, the coach probably helped the situation by getting the stupid kid off the field before he made himself look like a fool any more than he already had. Evidently the parents don't realize (or don't want to realize) that their kid is an idiot lol. Blame it on the coach instead of the kid...or themselves
57special posted:Dominik85 posted:57special posted:The coach must've really grabbed him hard by the neck to justify an assault charge. I'm having a hard time picturing the scene, myself. It's hard to do any damage with one hand on the back of the neck, unless the person doing it is out of control. Was the 17yo(I refuse to call him a kid) hurt? Was he shoved to the ground?
As someone who coaches at younger ages myself I have had to educate myself on certain things like spotting concussions, and how not to do certain things that can be taken the wrong way such as having private meetings with a player, or driving them home after practice. Laying hands on them would be right up there as a no-no...hard to believe this guy was ignorant of that, especially seeing as he was a teacher, also.
I have some sympathy for the coach, but he handled this wrong. Neither side covered themselves in glory on this one, but again, without seeing it I hate to give to much of an opinion. I do know that arguing with umpires is unacceptable at our HS. It still happens(rarely), but the player is VERY conscious that he is on thin ice the longer he questions a call. Players can and do get benched for this.
Assault doesn't start with real injury. A hard slap in the face usually won't do any damage but it definitely is assault.
I was not there to judge the situation and this very well might have been blown out of proportion but if the coach really grabbed the neck he did cross a line even if his intentions were good.
Does touching, at all, constitute assault? Not trying to be argumentative, but am curious. And what constitutes verbal assault?
As i said in my post, I've had to re-educate myself later in life as to what is, and isn't, OK when you coach. Sometimes it seems like the goalposts are moving pretty fast.
So in my layman's understanding...
Verbal assault can be assault as well. Just yelling at someone and telling them off does not constitute verbal assault. In general you have to physically threaten to harm someone in an aggressive manner for it to be considered verbal assault, in addition you have to have the means to carryout the assault. There are some exceptions to the physical harm rule dealing with aggressively using language that offends someone due to racial, gender, etc. But in general you need to threaten actual physical harm. For instance if you say "I'm going to shoot a missile up your a$$ and kill you" you're probably not guilty of verbal assault. But if you aggressively threaten "to come over this fence and kick you a$$". you are probably guilty.
Again, assault does not have to include touching. It's the act of implying physical violence against someone. For instance acting like you are going to punch someone in anger and then pulling the punch at the last minute is assault.
In general, any unwanted physical contact can be constituted as assault. Even a friendly tap to the arm of a friend.
Buckeye 2015 posted:I'm sorry, but the facts that 1) the parents called police after their kid was an idiot....and 2) the police pressed charges against the coach....just make me wonder what is wrong with this country. It obviously wasn't "assault and battery". Did he touch the kid....sure....did he maybe squeeze his neck....sure, but that's it. The kid isn't hurt...and there was no intent to harm the kid. In fact, the coach probably helped the situation by getting the stupid kid off the field before he made himself look like a fool any more than he already had. Evidently the parents don't realize (or don't want to realize) that their kid is an idiot lol. Blame it on the coach instead of the kid...or themselves
I am in agreement with you 100%, but Im not sure the law is. I think the last two lines of your statement hit in on the real problem. Parents who can't believe their child would do anything wrong.
As I say to my wife all the time, your job would be easy if there were no parents.
Assault refers to the act which causes the victim to apprehend imminent physical harm, while battery refers to the actual act causing the physical harm.
- Cornell Law School, Wex Legal Dictionary
Wex is a free legal dictionary and encyclopedia sponsored and hosted by the Legal Information Institute at the Cornell Law School. Wex entries are collaboratively created and edited by legal experts.
Blue: steeeeeriiiiike 3
Player: wahhhhh
Blue: coach, you need to take care of your player
Coach: no can do blue, cannot risk my job
Blue: son, you're ejected
Player: wahhhhh, I'm not leaving and you cannot make me.
Blue: Coach?
Coach: Sorry I am legally not allowed... Last guy who did it lost his job, house, and livelihood.
Blue: son last chance, your team will forfeit if you don't leave the confines of the field
Player: wahhhh, you're so mean, you must hate me, I'm not leaving until you change your mind
Blue: Game called, forfeit, ... can't wait to write this one up ;-)
Parents: I want the umpire charged with verbal assault on my baby - we have video proof that ball was 1 mm down and out of the zone and he called him out with a really loud call causing my baby to cry and our team to lose.
Police/DA: <facepalm>
What is this world coming to 
?
luv baseball posted:life4orce posted:I find it amazing how quickly the coach has been prejudged by those that weren't even there and understanding the whole situation. Is he a saint? No, but who in life is? Protecting the bad ones? Seriously?
Reminds me of those so quickly to jump on and vilify those kids from Covington Catholic.
Why? The iPhone and mob outrage is what the 21st century is most famous for so far IMO.
Duke Lacrosse, Ferguson MO, Smollett, Kavenaugh, 2016 Election and on and on. No one has ever had to pay a price (yet) for a rush to judgement much less false allegations except the DA in NC who was so far gone he cooked the evidence in court and got caught.
The result is these become free shots - jump in early with full outrage - you will never, ever be held to account for being wrong. Hell chances are years later almost half of the people with still think these things actually happened which proves the power of an allegation or bias going in.
For example for those that do not like the Clintons - they are convinced Whitewater was a thing - it was not - but you will never convince those that believe it is true. That was 25 years ago and probably close to 1/2 the country still thinks Bill & Hillary did something illegal even though they were were exonerated on it.
On the other hand - if you preach patience and let the facts come out and later on it is worse then you thought such as say the Church abuse scandel - then you open yourself up to being part of the problem.
So if people will do what they are incentivized to do (and they do most of the time) condemning first and fast is a much safer move for anyone in power.... so who should be surprised when they do. For poof of this fact look to Trumps reaction to Charlottesville as an example of what happens if you don't - he becomes a Nazi sympathizer for failing to land with both feet in a certain box.
So IMO none of this is very complicated in that regard.
Stopping false allegations and more importantly checking the mob - that is another conversation altogether.
You are much to level headed for this forum. Be gone with you !!!
JohnF posted:Blue: steeeeeriiiiike 3
Player: wahhhhh
Blue: coach, you need to take care of your player
Coach: no can do blue, cannot risk my job
Blue: son, you're ejected
Player: wahhhhh, I'm not leaving and you cannot make me.
Blue: Coach?
Coach: Sorry I am legally not allowed... Last guy who did it lost his job, house, and livelihood.
Blue: son last chance, your team will forfeit if you don't leave the confines of the field
Player: wahhhh, you're so mean, you must hate me, I'm not leaving until you change your mind
Blue: Game called, forfeit, ... can't wait to write this one up ;-)
Parents: I want the umpire charged with verbal assault on my baby - we have video proof that ball was 1 mm down and out of the zone and he called him out with a really loud call causing my baby to cry and our team to lose.
Police/DA: <facepalm>
What is this world coming to
You forgot to mention a few things: Batter has a go-pro attached to his batting helmet to record all interactions. Also when batter gets the boot he claims "discrimination" (could be race, religion, sexual orientation, etc). Luckily for the pitcher, he didn't hit the batter with the ball. Could be an assault case since it was recorded on the Go Pro the pitcher smiled right before he pitched the ball, thereby showing intent to cause bodily harm.
New coaching technique ...
This is the right way to execute should you be inclined to do so. If not, do it your way. I don’t want to incur your wrath. I’m here to serve you.
If you think travel has more influence on getting to the next level now, just wait. At some point benching a player will be emotional abuse. Principals will counter by demanding no one sits, everyone bats. High school coaches will be glorified baby sitters. Baller’s parents tell travel coaches to do what is needed to turn their kid into the best player possible,
RJM posted:New coaching technique ...
This is the right way to execute should you be inclined to do so. If not, do it your way. I don’t want to incur your wrath. I’m here to serve you.
If you think travel has more influence on getting to the next level now, just wait. At some point benching a player will be emotional abuse. Principals will counter by demanding no one sits, everyone bats. High school coaches will be glorified baby sitters. Baller’s parents tell travel coaches to do what is needed to turn their kid into the best player possible,
It's already here. Some schools stopped cutting kids, everybody in the program get a letter, physical punishment (running, pushups, sit-ups) no longer allowed because it messed with the players' psyche. I'm not making this up.
It is a problem that goes far beyond baseball, it is just making it's way into sports now. When you enable people and a culture for too long, it because dangerous and cult like. I'm not sure why people are surprised considering I can't use the word ma'am at work anymore without be fired.
Some of you are getting too wrapped around the axle over this.
First of all, while it's true that a battery is "any offensive touching," that is really a test more for civil law suits than for criminal court. There's no criminal court in the land that's going to convict this guy. I hope he refuses to agree to plead or anything like that. We need more people to stand up to this kind of abusive misuse of the legal system.
Second, I see all the comments about how everyone knows you can't do this any more because of today's climate. But if everyone would stand up to it, we could restore order to the situation. Today's climate is of fairly recent vintage and is not irreversible. Sometimes pendulums swing back the other way -- if you make them.
The appropriate response to this is for every other family on the team to tell the AD that they refuse to continue with the season unless the player is removed from the roster and the parents are banned from school athletic contests in which any of their children participate.
In short, there's always a way to stand up to bullies. Here, the bullies are the parents who filed the charge, not the coach. Like all bullies, the parents are trying to perpetuate a wrong (their son's behavior) through threatening behavior and more. The only question is whether we have the courage to look those people in the eye and tell them that we're standing up to them.
It's true that too few do, but that's not an argument for the rest of us throwing in the towel. We can't let the inmates run the asylum.
I saw a coach do this exact thing to my son when he was 11, my response was "get 'em coach".
For those of you who can either afford, or can qualify for financial aid, I highly recommend military academies.
In public school if Johnny walks up to Timmy and punches him, then Timmy shoves Johnny away, both kids are arrested.
In military school the question is asked, who threw the first punch? Everyone else is excused and the punch thrower now has 6 hours of marching to work off.
Which sounds more logical?
coach2709 posted:Sooooo I'm not saying laying hands on the kid was right but what happens if he refuses to leave the field even after coach tells him too? How does this situation end? Obviously this kid is done but how do you make him leave if he refuses to?
You take the stance that his parents took. Call the police and have him arrested for trespassing.
"Xaverian Brothers High School is a top rated, private, all-boys, Catholic school located in Westwood, MA. It has 1,000 students in grades 7-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 13 to 1. Tuition is $21,800 for the highest grade offered. After graduation, 99% of students from this school go on to attend a 4-year college."
In Westwood MA where the median home price is $740K, you don't touch the children of the elite. The children do what they want and their futures are already laid out. You are simply there to babysit.
CmassRHPDad posted:"Xaverian Brothers High School is a top rated, private, all-boys, Catholic school located in Westwood, MA. It has 1,000 students in grades 7-12 with a student-teacher ratio of 13 to 1. Tuition is $21,800 for the highest grade offered. After graduation, 99% of students from this school go on to attend a 4-year college."
In Westwood MA where the median home price is $740K, you don't touch the children of the elite. The children do what they want and their futures are already laid out. You are simply there to babysit.
Step two is meet up with the St John’s Prep kids at Boston College or Notre Dame.
