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Does any other sport tag a single player with the win or loss?
S0ccer, hockey, lacrosse and field hockey. Goalies are tracked with wins, losses and goals against. Unlike baseball there's no such thing as an unearned goal. If the defense screws up, statistically it's all on the goalie.

Imagine if a baseball fielder screwed up and the hitter got to call for his pitch or hit off a tee. It would be the equivilant of a penalty shot in these other sports. My son is a s0ccer goalie. He said as the shooter prepares he looks into his eyes, reads his body language, then guesses. The goalie has a one in three chance of being right ... hold his ground, dive right, dive left.
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Originally posted by bacdorslider:
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Originally posted by LHPMom2012:
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Originally posted by Swampboy:
Does ANY other sport have a comparably prominent stat whose purpose is to excuse a player for not helping out after his teammates make mistakes?


Does any other sport tag a single player with the win or loss? I'm not agreeing that pitchers should be held blameless for kids that get on base or score through error. It's part of the game, and helps build mental toughness in a pitcher. Pitchers also walk batters, fail to make plays on bunts or ground balls batted back to them, overthrow bases on pick-off attempts, etc.

At the end of the day, though, the pitcher gets the loss whether he gave up a walk-off home run or if the second baseman dropped an easy pop fly. Maybe that's the reason the other stats mean so much, although none of them trump the all important win-loss record.


Good point, the pitcher usually gets the win or the loss, but I have seen pitchers throw bad games, but their offensive help was so great that day they got the win....but the bats really won.


They keep track of W-L's as a starter for hockey goalies and football quarterbacks, but that's not the point.

Who do you want on the mound? The pitcher who keeps his ERA pure while feeling no responsibility for the unearned runs, or the warrior who sees a fielding error as the cue for him to step up and battle? My concern is that some coaches, parents, and players lean on ERA in a manner that permits an "I did my job" mentality that should have no place in team sports.

I'll also point out that ERA is the only counter-factual stat we use. It's a record of what might have happened in different circumstances, not a tabulation of what actually did happen. If you take comfort in your ERA, you're living in a make-believe world of ifs and buts.
Last edited by Swampboy
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Originally posted by zombywoof:
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I think it is important to let your kid and others know how many earned runs and how many unearned runs they gave up.


Then you should also let the pitcher know that the low ERA is in part with his fielders making plays behind him.
If I told my son it wasn't his fault the team lost because the defense didn't get it done he get ticked. He would remind me they still made 21 plays. In newspaper interviews when asked about his game he always says the catcher called a great game and the players made the plays behind him. It's called accountability and teamwork. I'm guessing some pitchers here aren't being taught it.
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Originally posted by RJM:
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Originally posted by zombywoof:
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I think it is important to let your kid and others know how many earned runs and how many unearned runs they gave up.


Then you should also let the pitcher know that the low ERA is in part with his fielders making plays behind him.
If I told my son it wasn't his fault the team lost because the defense didn't get it done he get ticked. He would remind me they still made 21 plays. In newspaper interviews when asked about his game he always says the catcher called a great game and the players made the plays behind him. It's called accountability and teamwork. I'm guessing some pitchers here aren't being taught it.
Yeah, the PC comments for the interview are pretty much expected at any level. Behind close doors even a major leaguer is going to call a spade a spade, especially if you have some mif playing socker with the ball all day. It's called being competitive and Human.
I Think the important thing with stats is that it shouldn't place balme on certain players leading to contention and disention on the team. If that is happening then shame on the coaches or parents for doing this.Stats are used to state the overall development or lack thereof of the team. If a pitcher has the lowest ERA on the team but has the highest amount of unearned runs, it probably is not the pitching in those games that needs addressing. I am all for calling a spade a spade "at the right time and place". Pitchers especially need feedback on what kind of job they are doing.

The game is played pitcher against pitcher. The pitcher works harder than anyone else in the game. Most of the pressure is placed on the pitcher whether or not we want to admit it or not. The main stats defensively are based on the pitchers performance. I am not suggesting that pitchers steal or replace what the defense does I am suggestingthat it is the pitchers performance that sets the tone for how the game is played defensively. Each player ha s ajob to do and generally speaking, baseball is a sport where the majority of the pressure on the defensive side is placed upon the pitcher to set a good tone for the game.

This is why earned runs versus unearned runs make so much difference at any level of competetive baseball. Thus, pitchers need to know their stats and how effective they are against different competition. The same goes with the defense- they need to know if they are above the acceptable limit for the general talent level they are playing at. Baseball is a "man sport" and as such, each individual needs to man up to their overall contribution or lack thereof to the team. This doesn't have to be a harsh thing. Good coaches know how to bring this up and get nothing but positive results. We shouldn't baby the situation nor look the other way. Address the problem areas specifically and improve the overall health and production of a team.
Agreed. If you're using stats to chart team progress, advanced scouting to play other teams etc..then of course statistics serve its purpose. However, when playing the blame game, you publicly don't blast your fielders for making errors. Even if it's done privately, that pitcher better not walk a batter or give up a hit or he should be prepared to get an earful.
Last edited by zombywoof
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The reason you begin playing baseball at an early age is to begin to slowly master every aspect of the game. By the time players get to HS ball, especially varsity level, they pretty much need to have a certain level of skills mastered to some degree. Speaking to the players as a coach about issues that can be overcome is essential to furthering player and team development.


What does all of this have to do with how important discussing ERA is? If a, let's say in this case a pitcher, is walking too many, that means he has some mechnical issues, or possibly he's hurt. Once you determine and correct the problem, then the ERA adjusts itself.

I agree with OB44, you give the player TMO then you fill his head with unnecessary stuff he doesn't need to think about in a game. You don't understand that and at this point I don't expect you to.

W/L, k/99, SO, GB/FO are also very important stats to pitchers, so it just isn't about ERA or UNERA. Do you think that when a coach/manager sits with a player if he is having issues he discusses it in terms of these stats...NO WAY. The ERA is just one aspect, again, I don't expect you to understand that, mainly because adukts tend to analyze everything.

Nothing more aggravating than working your butt off for 6,7,8 innings(as a starter) and getting a no decision, does anyone think after that experience the pitcher says, "well if anything it lowered my ERA"?
Every once in awhile the stats actually do mean something.

Here is a high school pitcher's stats for this year so far...

W-8
L-0
ERA-0.44
IP-49
Ks-111
BB-3
WHIP-0.31
Averages 12.4 pitches per inning

Stats can be very misleading, but any scout would look at these stats and go see this pitcher.

Of course, they didn't need the stats because everyone already knew that this kid has first round ability.
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Originally posted by dswann:
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Originally posted by RJM:
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Originally posted by zombywoof:
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
I think it is important to let your kid and others know how many earned runs and how many unearned runs they gave up.


Then you should also let the pitcher know that the low ERA is in part with his fielders making plays behind him.
If I told my son it wasn't his fault the team lost because the defense didn't get it done he get ticked. He would remind me they still made 21 plays. In newspaper interviews when asked about his game he always says the catcher called a great game and the players made the plays behind him. It's called accountability and teamwork. I'm guessing some pitchers here aren't being taught it.
Yeah, the PC comments for the interview are pretty much expected at any level. Behind close doors even a major leaguer is going to call a spade a spade, especially if you have some mif playing socker with the ball all day. It's called being competitive and Human.


I don't know if I believe that because every player knows that they may be the one who screws up next game...They can't be perfect every night.
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Originally posted by TPM:
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
The reason you begin playing baseball at an early age is to begin to slowly master every aspect of the game. By the time players get to HS ball, especially varsity level, they pretty much need to have a certain level of skills mastered to some degree. Speaking to the players as a coach about issues that can be overcome is essential to furthering player and team development.


What does all of this have to do with how important discussing ERA is? If a, let's say in this case a pitcher, is walking too many, that means he has some mechnical issues, or possibly he's hurt. Once you determine and correct the problem, then the ERA adjusts itself.

I agree with OB44, you give the player TMO then you fill his head with unnecessary stuff he doesn't need to think about in a game. You don't understand that and at this point I don't expect you to.

W/L, k/99, SO, GB/FO are also very important stats to pitchers, so it just isn't about ERA or UNERA. Do you think that when a coach/manager sits with a player if he is having issues he discusses it in terms of these stats...NO WAY. The ERA is just one aspect, again, I don't expect you to understand that, mainly because adukts tend to analyze everything.

Nothing more aggravating than working your butt off for 6,7,8 innings(as a starter) and getting a no decision, does anyone think after that experience the pitcher says, "well if anything it lowered my ERA"?


You use stats as a tool. Perhaps you don't understand that.

Round and round we go.

Here we go again.

Let's destroy another thread with endless debates TPM!
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I don't know if I believe that because every player knows that they may be the one who screws up next game...They can't be perfect every night.


Exactly why you don't throw your teammates under the bus. Any given game, anybody can wear the horns.

I taught my son that as a little leaguer and all the years he played, he never bad-mouthed a teammate.
Last edited by zombywoof
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Two observations...one on stats role in fostering team...the second stats role in getting to the next level.

First...I find it interesting that much of this discussion is actually NOT centered around pitcher stats per se, but rather more specifically around how pitcher stats factor into what a "team player" is...and how, or if, players/or coaches those stats to make a team better.

SEcond...With all due respects...While I love PG's gaudy players stats, and they would go a long way....If I had a dollar for every player we have seen drafted/recruited around us with really, really, ugly stats...or virtually none at all...while kids with great stats are ignored...I'd retire AND set up an endowment to pay for the HSBBW in perpetuity. In our experience stats are a semi objective tool...and the decision process in getting the next level, or for PT is a purely a subjective one.

Cool 44
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
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Originally posted by TPM:
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Let's destroy another thread with endless debates TPM!


Hey, wait a sec there guy, if you go back and look you did begin this by quoting me...and others, or am I missing something?


Oh, I see, so now it is about who started it. This is kid ****. I am done debating already.


I apologize to everyone. The original topic strayed off course page 5, what was about paying ones dues got into another discussion of pitching, this happens often lately. I fell into the trap. Frown
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Originally posted by TPM:
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
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Originally posted by TPM:
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Originally posted by Gingerbread Man:
Let's destroy another thread with endless debates TPM!


Hey, wait a sec there guy, if you go back and look you did begin this by quoting me...and others, or am I missing something?


Oh, I see, so now it is about who started it. This is kid ****. I am done debating already.


I apologize to everyone. The original topic strayed off course page 5, what was about paying ones dues got into another discussion of pitching, this happens often lately. I fell into the trap. Frown


Me too, I fell in also. Frown

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