Penn State Baseball Quality

Buckeye 2015 posted:

Being from Ohio, and if baseball was excluded from the picture, I'd say Penn State would be as much of a draw as a school as most of the other B1G schools.  The school is big, has a great college "atmosphere" and also have 100K plus for football Saturday's in the Fall.  For a midwest kid considering schools for baseball, I'm not sure why Penn State couldn't get the same kids that schools like Indiana, Illinois, Nebraska, Rutgers & Minnesota are getting...and PSU is quite a bit behind all of those schools right now as far as baseball is concerned.  Cooper won at Wright State....regularly being much bigger and better schools, so he obviously could recruit.  Not sure why things haven't gone better since he took over PSU.   NE Ohio has some good HS baseball....heck, just recruiting Cleveland and NE Ohio alone (PSU is only about 2 hours away) would get them some pretty good talent.

Weather is always going to be an issue with recruiting the top pro prospects in the region. But a good coach can get most of the rest of the area talent. Sometimes you get a stud you wouldn't normally get (think Schwarber). Then a good pipeline to overflow talent (more D1 talent than programs) in CA and FL rounds out a capable roster.

If a coach can get a kid to think past baseball the PSU alumni association is the largest dues paying membership organization in the world. How’s that for job connections? You sell what you have. 

My 2019 son was contacted via his club coach by the (then) RC in January of 2017 and he asked he would be interested in coming out for a summer workout. Son is on west coast. We opted to make a bigger trip of it to justify the expense and did a headfirst camp as well on the trip.

We went to the camp eyes wide open. We knew about PSU's baseball program's lack of success and knew that if an offer was ever to come from PSU it would be more about attending the school and the experience that brings than ever being on a competitive D1 baseball team in a P5 conference. What I say here is not limited to PSU, but also applies to my alma mater as well:

- Schools like PSU have no trouble recruiting top ranked players. The problem they have is getting those kids to show up on campus because top ranked guys have options (draft and or other colleges)

- PSU alums with connections get their kids on those rosters, it's way more political than you would think. 

- Now, you would think any Big 10 school would have no problem recruiting studs and being competitive. That goes with all P5 schools...but the difference is in the coaching

- PSU has a horrible record. The coach's son is a player identified as a committed player for 2019 class. RED FLAG. Same situation at Washington State. In both cases, from what I can discern, neither player is Power 5 material. So perhaps the administration hires a coach who is willing to babysit a program that isn't ever expected to generate revenue with the expectation that they need to take care of a few alums kids on the roster and as a bone he gets to take care of his kid(s) too. It happens.

In my mind there is no excuse for a program at a Power 5 school to ever have this poor of performance. This kind of year usually results in an exit of the HC and staff. I wouldn't be surprised if it happens at PSU as well. 

GaryMe posted:

My 2019 son was contacted via his club coach by the (then) RC in January of 2017 and he asked he would be interested in coming out for a summer workout. Son is on west coast. We opted to make a bigger trip of it to justify the expense and did a headfirst camp as well on the trip.

We went to the camp eyes wide open. We knew about PSU's baseball program's lack of success and knew that if an offer was ever to come from PSU it would be more about attending the school and the experience that brings than ever being on a competitive D1 baseball team in a P5 conference. What I say here is not limited to PSU, but also applies to my alma mater as well:

- Schools like PSU have no trouble recruiting top ranked players. The problem they have is getting those kids to show up on campus because top ranked guys have options (draft and or other colleges)

- PSU alums with connections get their kids on those rosters, it's way more political than you would think. 

- Now, you would think any Big 10 school would have no problem recruiting studs and being competitive. That goes with all P5 schools...but the difference is in the coaching 

I'm not sure I'm buying that PSU is more political than other B1G schools (or many other D1 programs), or have more trouble than other B1G schools getting kids to show up on campus.  I would agree that coaching has to be the difference, or...

Are they lacking support from the administration?  Are they fully funded?  Do they have budget for extras like many programs?  Do they fly to away games or shlep on long bus rides?  Do they have to wait for football players to finish their lifting before they can use the weight room?  Etc...

I don't consider his kid coming in as a red flag.  Coaches kids are usually pretty good.  If he's a capable player (even if he's the #33 guy on the roster) he's not costing the team anything with regard to scholarships.  Coach's kid is likely getting free school.  An awful lot of D1 coaches have their kids play for them.....some are good, some not so good, but either way, that's a very, very minor issue in my mind.

I don't like it one bit.  It sets a tone, says that connections and economics are more important than merit.  I would steer my son away from any program where the coach has his own kid on the team.

A more interesting question, what does everyone think of coaches who recruit siblings several classes apart?  While it doesn't raise the same red flag as the coach who pulls in his son, it does give me some pause for concern.  Sticking with the B1G, Northwestern is a team that has a pair of brothers on it.  And if there was some light at the end of Coach Allen's long tunnel last year (2017), it certainly seems to have blinkered out this year.  That program is in shambles.  Perhaps a place like Northwestern has even greater alumni politics to deal with in recruiting? 

Last summer when our family was still new to how all this recruiting business works, the politics hit home after we were forced to sit through one of Brendan Sullivan's motivational talks at Headfirst.  For those who don't know he founded that company after working on the business model while at Stanford as an undergrad.  In his long-winded speech he joked that he was the 17th man on a 16-man Stanford pitching staff.  He grew up in DC and described the way in which he got recruited by Stanford as having been pure luck, a friend of a coach he played for somehow had a connection to the Stanford coaching staff. 

Skeptical of how this would have been possible, we subsequently did some searching on the guy and figured out that he's the son of one of the most prominent lawyers in Washington, DC, and from a very wealthy and politically well-connected family.  His was an upbringing in the one percent, or very near to it.  Now this is pure speculation on my part, but the way you get recruited to be the 17th man on a 16-man staff at Stanford is to have a very wealthy and connected father.  I could be very mistaken about this, but Sullivan certainly doesn't offer this information up to all those middle class kids whose struggling parents have forked out a thousand dollars to him to give their kid a chance to meritocratically get one of those 35 spots on a college baseball roster. 

To be fair, the guy did go on to have a nice minor league career, probably through a lot of hard work and determination, rather than through any kind of natural ability.  And he also seems to be a genuinely nice guy in the mannered way that very well off people tend to be.  I realize that every journey is unique, but it's worth telling all our sons that some journeys are a little more well-oiled than all the rest.

My son played on a team with the coach’s son. The kid did not get preferential treatment. A friend is a college coach. His son (a 1st round pick MLBer) played at a more prominent program. His younger brother followed. He mostly sat. After a year he transferred out.

My personal opinion from seeing the younger brother play as a high school senior he didn't have the same level of talent as the older brother. He was very good. Just not good enough to play at a ranked powerhouse. He transferred to a JuCo,  then played mid major. He had a successful college baseball career. 

College coaches aren't going to screw up their income stream with blatant nepotism. 

If you're worried about players getting preferential treatment I suggest your son stay away from any program recruiting Gatorade Players of the Year, sons of professional baseball players, sons of former players and any players receiving more scholarship money than your son. They may get first shot.

Sarcasm aside, you find the right program, tune out the external stuff, don't make excuses and compete for a position. 

I wouldn't want to comment on something that I don't know of as true. Where was it announced that PSU's coach has his son committed to his program. I am not doubting he might do this but would feel better with some verification of that as fact please.

JeffnNYC posted:

I don't like it one bit.  It sets a tone, says that connections and economics are more important than merit.  I would steer my son away from any program where the coach has his own kid on the team.

A more interesting question, what does everyone think of coaches who recruit siblings several classes apart?  While it doesn't raise the same red flag as the coach who pulls in his son, it does give me some pause for concern.  Sticking with the B1G, Northwestern is a team that has a pair of brothers on it.  And if there was some light at the end of Coach Allen's long tunnel last year (2017), it certainly seems to have blinkered out this year.  That program is in shambles.  Perhaps a place like Northwestern has even greater alumni politics to deal with in recruiting? 

Last summer when our family was still new to how all this recruiting business works, the politics hit home after we were forced to sit through one of Brendan Sullivan's motivational talks at Headfirst.  For those who don't know he founded that company after working on the business model while at Stanford as an undergrad.  In his long-winded speech he joked that he was the 17th man on a 16-man Stanford pitching staff.  He grew up in DC and described the way in which he got recruited by Stanford as having been pure luck, a friend of a coach he played for somehow had a connection to the Stanford coaching staff. 

Skeptical of how this would have been possible, we subsequently did some searching on the guy and figured out that he's the son of one of the most prominent lawyers in Washington, DC, and from a very wealthy and politically well-connected family.  His was an upbringing in the one percent, or very near to it.  Now this is pure speculation on my part, but the way you get recruited to be the 17th man on a 16-man staff at Stanford is to have a very wealthy and connected father.  I could be very mistaken about this, but Sullivan certainly doesn't offer this information up to all those middle class kids whose struggling parents have forked out a thousand dollars to him to give their kid a chance to meritocratically get one of those 35 spots on a college baseball roster. 

To be fair, the guy did go on to have a nice minor league career, probably through a lot of hard work and determination, rather than through any kind of natural ability.  And he also seems to be a genuinely nice guy in the mannered way that very well off people tend to be.  I realize that every journey is unique, but it's worth telling all our sons that some journeys are a little more well-oiled than all the rest.

JeffnNYC I read your post above with interest.  I sat through the same HF speech by Brendan Sullivan last year in NY and (probably naively!!) did not give it near as much skepticisim or research!  I hoped my son took something from it but otherwise did not give it much additional thought.

The reason for my post is just to say once again how valuable of a resource HSBBweb can be - I appreciate thoughtful and well written posts and input like this.  Not sure I agree with or share your skepticism entirely LOL, but it is worth keeping in mind that politics, wealth and connections can and do influence recruiting and counsel our sons accordingly.  To me it's interesting to hear other people's perspectives that you may not have considered.

Upstate Dad posted:

I wouldn't want to comment on something that I don't know of as true. Where was it announced that PSU's coach has his son committed to his program. I am not doubting he might do this but would feel better with some verification of that as fact please.

https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=476005

"Cooper earned his bachelor’s degree in psychology from Miami in 1994 and a master’s in sports sciences/administration from Miami in 1996. He is married to his wife, Maureen, and has two sons, Jake and Tyson."

We are in the Mid Atlantic and dont run into the PSU coaching staff at all. My son plays on a top tier travel team and we play from Pa south to Georgia and other points south in very good tournaments regularly and we see tons of recruiters representing D1-D3 programs all over the country, but not PSU. We had a couple of kids who were interested in attending but they got no calls back and ended up committing to other programs in the South.

I dont understand PSU or Northwestern. Both programs have name recognition and play in Power 5 Conferences but they arent competitive. Many smaller schools do much more with less.   

CatsPop posted:

Upstate Dad posted:

I wouldn't want to comment on something that I don't know of as true. Where was it announced that PSU's coach has his son committed to his program. I am not doubting he might do this but would feel better with some verification of that as fact please.

https://www.perfectgame.org/Pl...ofile.aspx?ID=476005

"Cooper earned his bachelor’s degree in psychology from Miami in 1994 and a master’s in sports sciences/administration from Miami in 1996. He is married to his wife, Maureen, and has two sons, Jake and Tyson."

One kid is fourteen. I couldn't find anything on the other.

If you look under commits on PG you'll find him.  He also announced his commitment on Twitter.

How terrible for PSU! Having a son play college ball for dad can be good or bad depending on the ethics of the Dad . My opinion of this particular coach is that this is a bad situation for anyone that wants to catch or DH for PSU 2020-2024. I would doubt you will get a fair chance to play. My son played for coach Cooper as a starter and award winner for a year and we got a chance to see first hand how he operates. My opinions are based on that experience. Be warned about the potential problems at PSU if there is not a coaching change.

JeffnNYC posted:

I don't like it one bit.  It sets a tone, says that connections and economics are more important than merit.  I would steer my son away from any program where the coach has his own kid on the team.

A more interesting question, what does everyone think of coaches who recruit siblings several classes apart?  While it doesn't raise the same red flag as the coach who pulls in his son, it does give me some pause for concern.  Sticking with the B1G, Northwestern is a team that has a pair of brothers on it.  And if there was some light at the end of Coach Allen's long tunnel last year (2017), it certainly seems to have blinkered out this year.  That program is in shambles.  Perhaps a place like Northwestern has even greater alumni politics to deal with in recruiting? 

Last summer when our family was still new to how all this recruiting business works, the politics hit home after we were forced to sit through one of Brendan Sullivan's motivational talks at Headfirst.  For those who don't know he founded that company after working on the business model while at Stanford as an undergrad.  In his long-winded speech he joked that he was the 17th man on a 16-man Stanford pitching staff.  He grew up in DC and described the way in which he got recruited by Stanford as having been pure luck, a friend of a coach he played for somehow had a connection to the Stanford coaching staff. 

Skeptical of how this would have been possible, we subsequently did some searching on the guy and figured out that he's the son of one of the most prominent lawyers in Washington, DC, and from a very wealthy and politically well-connected family.  His was an upbringing in the one percent, or very near to it.  Now this is pure speculation on my part, but the way you get recruited to be the 17th man on a 16-man staff at Stanford is to have a very wealthy and connected father.  I could be very mistaken about this, but Sullivan certainly doesn't offer this information up to all those middle class kids whose struggling parents have forked out a thousand dollars to him to give their kid a chance to meritocratically get one of those 35 spots on a college baseball roster. 

To be fair, the guy did go on to have a nice minor league career, probably through a lot of hard work and determination, rather than through any kind of natural ability.  And he also seems to be a genuinely nice guy in the mannered way that very well off people tend to be.  I realize that every journey is unique, but it's worth telling all our sons that some journeys are a little more well-oiled than all the rest.

Thanks for your thoughts on Headfirst.  I've heard the same speech and wasn't as critical either.  Thanks for your insights.  The balance is helpful.

Upstate Dad posted:

I agree, I don't think the facilities create a recruiting problem. In fact, I would say they are a strong draw. My experience and opinion is that playing for coach Cooper is not a good experience.

What a self serving thread! First you ask what’s up at Penn State? Then in further posts you start to rip into the coach more and more as you proceed because you have personal issues with him. You set yourself up for an opportunity to rip into him. You should be proud of yourself. If this was hockey i would say you put the puck on your own stick to fire away.

Classier posters would hold back personal issues for PM’s. The coach isn't here to defend himself. I’m betting not everyone at Wright State had a bad experience under him. 

It seems like I am not the only one with concerns about this coach right? The quality of communication, the invisibility of recruiting, and the nepotism are all things mentioned by many others and not me. We are talking facts here do you have some facts to add to the discussion?

I think it is obvious that I am speaking from personal experiences with the coach. I have made no claims about what other players thought of him right? I have asked for positive comments about the coach in this very thread but thus far there have not been many people coming to his defense. This is an open forum and other view points are accepted and encouraged. Take our experience for what it is worth to you as well as the other peoples who have shared what you they have seen . I have no idea why you see me as some kind of bad guy here. I think the experience we have had may mean something to some people. I have not criticized anyone else's opinions but rather have been accepting of all viewpoints. Isn't that the spirit of this board. How do other people see this discussion? Has it been interesting and informative to some? Thank you all for your time and honest viewpoints.

Upstate Dad posted:

It seems like I am not the only one with concerns about this coach right? The quality of communication, the invisibility of recruiting, and the nepotism are all things mentioned by many others and not me. We are talking facts here do you have some facts to add to the discussion?

You turned questions about the program into a personal attack on the coach. I don't have an opinion either way about the coach. I can make assumptions and ask questions based on observations. But hsbaseballweb isn't the place to launch a personal attack on a coach. It’s obvious your plan was personal attack based on how it evolved from your original post.

Upstate - I have not been able to take away much from your comments because you won't go into specifics about the Coach.  What was it that your son didn't like about him?

Lets ask others for their opinion here. What you have called a personal attack I believe has been a sharing of experience and information with the group. How about how do others see this? Is it helpful to know various opinions based on facts concerning a coach.? I have specifically asked for positives about the coach as well so a balanced viewpoint can be developed. I can't help if positives have been slow in coming. Facts are facts s about this program success. Is this information helpful or have I crossed some line in expressing my opinions?

At first it seemed like there was a legitimate question/concern about what should be a top flight program in Penn State and their struggles. But this has clearly taken a turn in looking for others to validate your issues with the coach.

I don't know the guy, didn't even know he coached at Wright State, so I'm only speaking from what I've heard from those close to us. Basically they are not recruiting well for a school of their caliber for whatever reasons (poor communication, weather, location, laziness?, etc). They are nationally ranked in almost every sport but baseball, something needs to happen soon or they will lose even the mid tier PA recruit to other cold weather schools. 

It would probably be better to talk about why schools similar to PSU (large schools in power conferences with national recognition) are having trouble recruiting as this issue is not exclusive to Penn State. There probably aren't a ton of people on here close enough to the PSU program to vouch for the guy, or maybe they agree. Don't know. 

Either way, I'm more interested in how a team in a situation like this turns it around. Not just PSU specifically, but schools that have been down for years, playing against better competition. 

This  a hit job done in a disingenuous manner.  And that's putting it nicely.

You asked!

Ok, I have been asked what my son did not like about the coach now at PSU.  First I need to assess whether others want me to answer that question or not. What's the concensus here... Would sharing the specifics be a personal attack or valuable information? I'm asking for input from the group.

I suppose I'll rescind my request for specifics in public on this forum.  If you feel comfortable sharing your experience with me in a private message, please do, as I'm sincerely interested.  

I think you post has been informative to anyone considering pursuing an opportunity at PSU. We sat through the same speech last year at HF and I didn’t know the background of the guy, but I am not shocked. RJM will try to confront anyone who speaks poorly of a coach on here, he’s the Patron Saint of Coaches...and an insufferable jerk. 

I think people have had their say on this one and the thread appears to be degenerating.  Thread closed.