PerfectGame will soon charge for air

GaryMe posted:

rynoattack posted:

GaryMe posted:

Jim T. posted:

My son is long removed from high school ball but I was curious to see how his old team and friends' younger brothers were doing in Jupiter.  I found the PG website absolutely worthless unless you are willing to pay for absolutely everything.  A lot has changed since my family began participation in travel sports.  I very much appreciated the well organized and professional events but geez oh man!  You can't show a box score for free any longer?  C'mom!! 

Dude, these guys are charging for parking at LakePoint to play there and an admission fee to see your kid play at most of their events, certainly the WWBA events during the summer in Atlanta. I am really surprised they let the players thru the turnstile without hitting them up for a couple of bucks as well. At $3,000 per team for the 17U WWBA this past summer, and 392 teams registered, you do the math. They are laughing all the way to the bank. Nearly $1.2M in team registration fees, figure 20 players per team so about 7,800 players involved in that week's tournament. Figure conservatively that 1/2 will have at least one spectator attending to support them and they will pony up for a weekly tournament pass at $55 per person (another $200K+ in revenue for the week). I want to say parking at LP is like $10 a day, so figure that revenue in with revolving cars every couple of hours in a parking lot that holds roughly 800 cars. Oh, and they have a sweetheart lease deal too...so, you do the math. I figure for events like the 17U WWBA at LP they are grossing close to $2M a week, including hotel booking kickbacks.

They don't need to charge for box scores, they want to...because they are greedy. I get it if they want to charge for access to profiles and stuff, but the results of games? That's ridiculous.

Calling them greedy is a bit over the top.  Are you privy to their overhead?  

Call it like I see it. 

That's the point...you don't see everything, i.e. you don't have all the facts to make that judgement...

So you need a laundry list of facts to have an opinion? Here's the definition of "opinion":

a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

So I can have an opinion, if you don't like it I am not telling you that you cannot respond...I just shake my head and wonder why you are?

Twoboys posted:

Let's be very clear.  I did not call anyone racist.  But after reading this comment (and others by others):

As for the poor black kids who can’t afford PG how come they are traveling the country attending every major AAU basketball event?

I do have the balls to say what I said to your face, and the other faces in this thread.  PLEASE DO NOT EQUATE POOR with BLACK.  You can be white and not be able to afford PG.  You can be black and be able to afford PG. 

And moreover to say that those "poor black kids" travel all around attending AAU basketball events has nothing do with this argument about the expense of PG, their business practices etc.  You have no way of knowing what people who travel all around the country for AAU basketball tournaments can afford.   Or their race, nor should that matter.

I will excuse your accusations due to your political correctness, ignorance and lack of information. I did not say black kids are poor. I posed a question about the blacks kids who are poor. 

I was also a travel basketball coach. We lived in a basketball hotbed. My friends and associates ranged from high school, travel, college to NBA coaches, referees and former players. My son was recruited to play for travel basketball teams at age twelve with the same level of activity he was recruited for travel baseball at 17u. The difference was the only cost to play basketball was getting him to practice. Everything else was free.

One of the teams that recruited him (through me) was an all black team from a very economically depressed area. The coaches called my son “that white, black kid” due to his quickness. I know what goes on in high end travel basketball starting at early ages. A lot of it is illegal or at the least immoral. My son was offered Air Jordan’s and a wardrobe budget for travel as a 12u player. This team from an economically depressed area was fully sponsored. Aside from the regional tournaments starting at age ten they did six national tournaments in every corner of the country.

The travel basketball world is nuts. My son was listed in a couple of national magazines as a top regional point guard starting at age ten. As a 4’8” ten year old one of the writers approached me to ask his projected future height for the article. 

Top end youth football may be worse. If you want to be shocked read a book called, “We Own This Game, The Adult World Of Youth Football.” It’s written by guy who spent the season traveling with a Pop Warner football team. You read that right, traveling with a Pop Warner football team. Just to tip where it goes parents get paid for what team their kids play for. By whom? People connected with  major college football programs as boosters. The kids and parents on these teams are from economically depressed areas. 

Not even gonna go there...wow. Thank goodness travel baseball is above reproach...

go to some of the folks who involved with travel baseball in CA and the western states when Bryce Harper came up through the ranks. There are some very high quality stories there as well.

GaryMe posted:

So you need a laundry list of facts to have an opinion? Here's the definition of "opinion":

a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge.

So I can have an opinion, if you don't like it I am not telling you that you cannot respond...I just shake my head and wonder why you are?

 

I am entitled to mine as well...

Closing in 3.2.1

As much as I've been reluctant to jump into another PG bashing thread, I'll throw in my two cents...

It seems that it is in our nature as human beings to complain and criticize things.  I'm guilty.  Hell, I often embrace a debate just for the sake of debate.  If we're just shootin' the breeze here on a baseball site and being our typical selves and criticizing something baseball related, that's fine.  It's a baseball site and it's a chat board. 

But here's the thing... this isn't just another baseball site and Jerry Ford, the founder of PG, has been such a productive and positive contributor here.  He has proven time and time again that the company he started was done so with the best of intentions to help players and promote the game and he has fought the good fight to maintain those intentions despite the challenges that massive success can bring.  He has been here hundreds, maybe thousands of times, willing to help those who couldn't afford or offer honest advice for those who shouldn't be spending the $ and attending.  He is family here and really good family at that.  For those who aren't aware of the background, I have no issues with you stating your negative PG opinions.  But many who have criticized PG here in the past (and present?) have been very aware of the relationship Jerry had with the site and his contributions (WAY beyond financial).  So, any criticism in that case, should be offered up with some degree of proper respect to one of the family members here.  Unfortunately, that has not been the case and we have lost a tremendous person and resource to this community.  That's what ain't right.  Do you stand up for family when others are bad-mouthing them and don't have any information except what they see on the surface?  

old_school posted:

go to some of the folks who involved with travel baseball in CA and the western states when Bryce Harper came up through the ranks. There are some very high quality stories there as well.

Bryce Harper was THE top talent. In other sports questionable stuff involves a lot of projectable preteen prospects/suspects, many who won’t go on to play D1 basketball.. The concept of “projectable preteens” is bizarre to me. 

cabbagedad posted:

As much as I've been reluctant to jump into another PG bashing thread, I'll throw in my two cents...

It seems that it is in our nature as human beings to complain and criticize things.  I'm guilty.  Hell, I often embrace a debate just for the sake of debate.  If we're just shootin' the breeze here on a baseball site and being our typical selves and criticizing something baseball related, that's fine.  It's a baseball site and it's a chat board. 

But here's the thing... this isn't just another baseball site and Jerry Ford, the founder of PG, has been such a productive and positive contributor here.  He has proven time and time again that the company he started was done so with the best of intentions to help players and promote the game and he has fought the good fight to maintain those intentions despite the challenges that massive success can bring.  He has been here hundreds, maybe thousands of times, willing to help those who couldn't afford or offer honest advice for those who shouldn't be spending the $ and attending.  He is family here and really good family at that.  For those who aren't aware of the background, I have no issues with you stating your negative PG opinions.  But many who have criticized PG here in the past (and present?) have been very aware of the relationship Jerry had with the site and his contributions (WAY beyond financial).  So, any criticism in that case, should be offered up with some degree of proper respect to one of the family members here.  Unfortunately, that has not been the case and we have lost a tremendous person and resource to this community.  That's what ain't right.  Do you stand up for family when others are bad-mouthing them and don't have any information except what they see on the surface?  

 

Very eloquently stated 

CabbageDad,

I am sure he's well aware of any criticism that is being bandied about regarding PG because of the relationships he has formed thru this forum with many of the "old timers," and everyone thinks he's lurking in the shadows anyway. The only people who brought Mr. Ford's name into the conversation were people defending PG, not those criticizing it. So, these are not personal attacks on Mr. Ford, and if it is perceived as such then that is out of the poster's control. I have read every post in this thread. Nobody ever called him out by name.

I have also read many of PGStaff's old posts and he liked to defer a lot of responsibility to others calling the shot within the PG organization. This is the guy you are defending saying that he isn't responsible for most of the business decisions now. If that is the case, and you take him at his word, why is everyone so worked up over "poor Jerry" getting beat up when in fact the criticism is aimed at the organization? That's like saying you cannot complain about the cost of gas at Exxon without defaming the person who founded the company. It's a pretty silly argument in my opinion. If he doesn't have any control over operations, then these posts are falling on deaf ears anyway. If he does have control, then hopefully he does something to stem the tide of sucking cash out of the pockets for every conceivable aspect of their events. Wanna win points with me? Sponsor a series of free events for people who cannot afford to get to these things. If PG is such a great exposure tool and the intention of PG is altruistic, then the attitude of the poster's on this board of "if you can't afford it, don't come" starts to make me question whether this is just becoming a sport for entitled kids from wealthy families.

cabbagedad posted:

As much as I've been reluctant to jump into another PG bashing thread, I'll throw in my two cents...

***

But here's the thing... this isn't just another baseball site and Jerry Ford, the founder of PG, has been such a productive and positive contributor here.  *** 

 

Thanks cabbagedad.  I have only been hanging around this site for a year or two and have wondered about some of the heat generated by posts critical of PG.  I feel like I understand it better now.  

GaryMe posted:

CabbageDad,

I am sure he's well aware of any criticism that is being bandied about regarding PG because of the relationships he has formed thru this forum with many of the "old timers," and everyone thinks he's lurking in the shadows anyway. The only people who brought Mr. Ford's name into the conversation were people defending PG, not those criticizing it. So, these are not personal attacks on Mr. Ford, and if it is perceived as such then that is out of the poster's control. I have read every post in this thread. Nobody ever called him out by name.

I have also read many of PGStaff's old posts and he liked to defer a lot of responsibility to others calling the shot within the PG organization. This is the guy you are defending saying that he isn't responsible for most of the business decisions now. If that is the case, and you take him at his word, why is everyone so worked up over "poor Jerry" getting beat up when in fact the criticism is aimed at the organization? That's like saying you cannot complain about the cost of gas at Exxon without defaming the person who founded the company. It's a pretty silly argument in my opinion. If he doesn't have any control over operations, then these posts are falling on deaf ears anyway. If he does have control, then hopefully he does something to stem the tide of sucking cash out of the pockets for every conceivable aspect of their events. Wanna win points with me? Sponsor a series of free events for people who cannot afford to get to these things. If PG is such a great exposure tool and the intention of PG is altruistic, then the attitude of the poster's on this board of "if you can't afford it, don't come" starts to make me question whether this is just becoming a sport for entitled kids from wealthy families.

This last sentence makes no sense coming from you. Your stance is always that PG is totally unnecessary, so why does anyone NEED to come?

That's not always the case, friend. I have often told people that a PG event could benefit them, with the caveat that they need to do the legwork themselves ahead of time to ensure that they aren't making the trip in a vacuum. Never expect to go to a PG event and be discovered. That is just not typical.

My beef, in general, is the monetization of the college baseball recruiting process. That is what gets my dander up.

I would argue greatly when it comes to kids not being able to afford.  I know for a fact that if a kid has talent and wants to go to PG tournaments, showcases I don't know for sure.  PG has scholarshiped kids and put them on teams and also been able to get them on teams when they might not be able to afford it.  i also know a lot of the major programs have helped get kids opportunities on their teams and other teams when they were not able.  So the, it costs too much excuse really does not exist.  I will also say that a lot of players do not pay to play in tournaments. 

I will agree that you cannot argue players do not have to have PG and then complain they can't afford PG.  Make up your mind which argument you are going to support.  I am not a PG apologists because I think there are a lot of things they can do better but I also see the results.  My son might not have gotten the opportunities he has without PG tournaments.  I think it is a great opportunity.  If they did the free events, it would overwhelmed with kids who did not need to be there and no college scouts would show up.

PitchingFan posted:

.... it would overwhelmed with kids who did not need to be there and no college scouts would show up.

some would argue it already is. I'm done, this is going nowhere

GaryMe posted:

CabbageDad,

I am sure he's well aware of any criticism that is being bandied about regarding PG because of the relationships he has formed thru this forum with many of the "old timers," and everyone thinks he's lurking in the shadows anyway. The only people who brought Mr. Ford's name into the conversation were people defending PG, not those criticizing it. So, these are not personal attacks on Mr. Ford, and if it is perceived as such then that is out of the poster's control. I have read every post in this thread. Nobody ever called him out by name.

I have also read many of PGStaff's old posts and he liked to defer a lot of responsibility to others calling the shot within the PG organization. This is the guy you are defending saying that he isn't responsible for most of the business decisions now. If that is the case, and you take him at his word, why is everyone so worked up over "poor Jerry" getting beat up when in fact the criticism is aimed at the organization? That's like saying you cannot complain about the cost of gas at Exxon without defaming the person who founded the company. It's a pretty silly argument in my opinion. If he doesn't have any control over operations, then these posts are falling on deaf ears anyway. If he does have control, then hopefully he does something to stem the tide of sucking cash out of the pockets for every conceivable aspect of their events. Wanna win points with me? Sponsor a series of free events for people who cannot afford to get to these things. If PG is such a great exposure tool and the intention of PG is altruistic, then the attitude of the poster's on this board of "if you can't afford it, don't come" starts to make me question whether this is just becoming a sport for entitled kids from wealthy families.

Well, I'll start from the end... 

First, I happen to agree, to an extent, that there is a problem as it relates to "a sport for entitled kids coming from wealthy families".  But, I don't think it is at all limited to baseball and certainly not rooted solely from expensive exposure events/organizations.  Current societal acceptances have lead to overbearing parental involvement, pressure to specialize early, prevalence of private instruction and travel events and a host of other things that have brought us here in most sports, as well as music and academic pursuits.  The gap continues to widen.  That said, as one poster stated, there are ways past that.  We shouldn't allow our kids to think otherwise, regardless of socioeconomic status.

Also, there are arguments from different angles from different posters in this thread.  You can't clump them together into either "for" or "against" groups.  

If you read PG's old posts, you also read several posts and confirmations that he did offer to provide events to those who couldn't afford it at no charge or steer them in the direction of a team or organization that would do the same.  So, there are your free points you asked for.  

A good portion of PG's deferrals had to do with the agreement with LakePoint and having to allow them to make their own policies with regard to things like parking, concession and, yes, even the price of water.  Those things, in fact, were and are at least partially out of PG control.  Jerry took the time to share that there was much back and forth where PG was not in favor of these extra charges but, surely, the separately owned facility has to take the steps they feel necessary for making the massive grounds and investment profitable.  And, these are the types of facilities that players and families desire to play at.  So, it's not like one side has ALL the leverage. In those old posts, Jerry communicated that he was working on getting some of those issues resolved (even though it wasn't something PG wanted or initiated in the first place) and, as best I recall, did have success in some instances.

In my initial post, I really didn't want to get back into another detailed pro and con of PG... just wanted to add some insightful background specific to HSBBW for those not aware.  

To your Exxon analogy.. if the founder of Exxon (and, let's say, still involved) was your father-in-law and you were all together for family dinner, would you choose that setting to generally complain about the price of gas at Exxon?  Or, if you did, wouldn't you at least do it with a reasonable degree of respect, knowing the relationship of him and the company as well as him and the rest of your wife's family?  You don't have to call him out by name for there to be an obvious association.  Within the house, if you are criticizing Exxon, you are certainly, in part, criticizing a respected family member.

I'm sure you will shoot holes in this... no time to tie up any loose ends.  Back to work.

GaryMe posted:

PitchingFan posted:

.... it would overwhelmed with kids who did not need to be there and no college scouts would show up.

some would argue it already is. I'm done, this is going nowhere

 

Then you or whoever is saying this are not at the same games I am.  My son had 51 pro scouts behind home plate in Jupiter, his last game before he committed last year had over 50 college scouts at 1 in the morning to watch him pitch.  The talent is still there but there are some teams who do not belong but it is because they are told show up and you will get recruited, not by PG but by people out there that don't understand.  I would really like to know how PG hurt you or your kid.  As a counselor at times, it seems that you have been greatly hurt by PG or someone related to PG.  I am not a full apologist for PG but I have never seen anyone as angry at an organization as you are about this one. 

Maybe we need to just say sit down on the couch and tell us your story.

As Cabbage mentioned a lot of what occurs At Lakepoint is Lakepoint policy not PG policy. But I remember when it first opened there was an issue about water in the dugouts. It wasn’t right. It could have been construed as a health issue. Jerry posted he would get the policy changed and did. It was a matter of knowing when to play your cards. Other things aren’t worth playing your cards.

i believe PG helped finance the building of Lakepoint. But it’s Lakepoint’s property and PG is on a lease. From what I read it’s too good of a deal to be complaining about every little detail.

what we really need is 100 P5 schools..... nah make it 200 P5 schools.... then all the recruiting and money and bragging and all can really take off... 

As the obnoxious meter get pegged, you should know better then most that a touch of humble goes along way. 

There are ways to get noticed if you don’t have the money to attend a showcase. How about going to every pro tryout you can? They are free, you get an honest evaluation and they lead to other opportunities IF you are good enough.      If your not pro material the scout may give your name to a college coach IF you are good enough to help their program

njbb posted:

There are ways to get noticed if you don’t have the money to attend a showcase. How about going to every pro tryout you can? They are free, you get an honest evaluation and they lead to other opportunities IF you are good enough.      If your not pro material the scout may give your name to a college coach IF you are good enough to help their program

 

I'm not sure this would be very effective as a recruiting strategy for college baseball.  Maybe the kid gets a referral to a local JC or local 4-year school but it probably wouldn't work if the player has a list of schools he's trying to get in front of.

I slightly disagree with the guys saying "take it or leave it, that's capitalism".

This is true of course and PG doesn't owe the customers anything but online ratings and customer satisfaction is becoming more and more important.

This isn't 1950s capitalism anymore, smart companies now listen to customers before they leave because there is a time span were customers start to get pissed but still view you as the best product out there. You want to keep those customers.

Now I'm definitely not good as business as PG is but I know that it isn't always overall price that pisses customers off, the are emotional.

People hate paying for the small stuff they are used to get for free (like access to internet stuff, parking, entrance to watch your kid).

People are not rational when it comes to this, PG would probably better off leaving the small stuff free and just charge higher participation fees.

PG is still the number 1 but charging for all those small things is imo not smart marketing, people rather pay 100 bucks extra in the end then 10 times 10 bucks for small stuff.

I'm not saying PG will go extinct but this stuff rubs a lot of people the wrong way despite being a small part of the overall expenses, they simply are not seen as customer friendly.

The overall trend in marketing is different, trap the people with free stuff, then cash in when they are hooked.

Good point. Hotels didn’t stop charging for WiFi out of altruism. And understanding how much people hate paying for shipping is one reason Jeff Bezos is the richest guy on the planet.

JCG posted:

Good point. Hotels didn’t stop charging for WiFi out of altruism. And understanding how much people hate paying for shipping is one reason Jeff Bezos is the richest guy on the planet.

This. Just put the cost for wifi or shipping into your calculation rather than charging a small, annoying extra fee. Now PG won't die from this but I see no reason to piss off customers for a relatively small amount of dollars.

In theory charging extra rather than hiding it in the calculation is actually fairer to the customer but people nowadays just don't want it.

I understand but I disagree.  I have always had to pay for admission into tournaments and $10 a day is not that bad in today's world.  I paid $8 to go watch a 8U tournament the other night to watch a kid from church.  The parking is not out of reach when you pay to park at most big places or walk for miles.  I have said it before.  If you don't want to pay to park there are options at LP.  And the internet stuff is blown out of proportion.  They are not paying for the minimalist information, they are paying for the details which everyone does not want.  They ask you to pay for the stuff that the average person expects to pay for when attending a high level athletic event. 

On the other note, they have heard from their customers and have made some changes over the years but they also understand that when there is a waiting list for almost every tournament they run then the supply and demand are not equal.  I think they do a decent job of understanding their customers and meeting needs.  Go back and read how many people who have actively, more than once, gone to a PG event are satisfied versus those who are not.  The majority is satisfied, doesn't mean we have to be happy, but satisfied with what we are getting for our money.  I tell people all the time that travel/showcase is not for everyone.  It is a family commitment in time and money.  I also tell them they would be better off putting their money in a savings account rather than spending it on baseball if it is just a way to get their kid to college.  But if it is a family way of life, then go for it but know it will cost your entire family their time and money. 

After 20 years, I was asked to help coach a team next summer since my last son is done.  I, probably, won't be giving my money to PG anymore, unless a friend's son wants me to come watch and I will gladly drive 4 hours and pay my $20 to watch him.  I realized I did not want to spend the next summer at a ball field when I could be spending time with my kids and wife and grandchild.  As much as I will miss it, I will decline.  I will find some other vice to take my money.