PG scout notes (stats)

I agree and it doesn't matter the age of the scorekeeper.  I watched a game the other day and at the end the scorekeeper was off by 12 pitches which is good for the pitcher being able to come back a day early if needed.  The guy was talking to the fans and scouts and missed a whole at bat.  He asked someone what happened and they said strikeout swinging.  He put three strikes swinging in the computer and moved on.  The batter actually fouled four off and took three balls.

I also do not believe the radar guns are close at times.  The same game had a kid throwing a 88 mph fastball and a 79 mph fastball in the same inning when a scout had the 79 at 87.  It is consistently wrong.  I will agree that at this point it is about entertainment not for scouts.  If they want validity for scouts they have a long way to go and I don't think it is feasible to get there without major overhauls.

The articles are ridiculous because it also comes down to the guys who go to their individual showcases.   I read one on a kid that played with my son who rolled one over to third, easy popup to second, and watched three strikes.  The writeup was that he had a great game hitting the ball hard.  The Player of the Year awards were funny because I know one kid who had better pitching and hitting stats than anyone on the first team but had only played PG tournaments and not PG showcases so he was on second team.  The Player of the Year for that state was a kid who had just been to a showcase.  I know they have to promote the showcase kids because those are the ones paying the money but don't make it out that they are the best from high school.  They are the best from that state that paid for your showcase fee.   At least look at the other awards given by organizations that specifically cover high school regular season before you give awards.

I'm not bashing PG.  I still believe they are the best product out there but I do not believe they are trying to get better at the stats and articles for the tournaments.  They are just focusing on the showcases.  I know it is harder at the tournaments but it is feasible.  I'm with Wareagle on the fact that it is not scouting reports when it comes to tournaments, it is just promotion.  Again, best product out there but don't settle.  Continue to get better and I'm not seeing that.  You make way too much money to not be twice as good as everyone else.

pitching fan

I agree. I absolutely love playing in PG tournaments and the competition. Overall a great thing. But as with anything, some things could be much better!

This isn't to suggest that those who are asked to keep score and evaluate players for PG shouldn't be held to a reasonable standard of quality. They should.

However, it should also be kept in mind that if a recruiter or scout is seriously interested in a player's performance, he'll want his own eyes, mind, and equipment to provide the inputs that go into his opinion/conclusion. This is why they remain resident there for days on end during major tournaments and travel from field to field during very long days. The information that PG reports is just for starters.

I think PG is actually getting better at covering events & tournaments.  Are there mistakes that get made?   No doubt.  But in general they have a lot of talented scouts & writers putting in long hours watching and writing about ballplayers.

A write up on the PG website is not going to get anyone a college commitment, I think everyone here knows that.   It can help get on the radar of some schools and get things moving in the right direction.   Thus, not a huge deal one way or another...

just my 2 cents

I agree.  They have gotten tremendously better.  I am not complaining for my son because he has played 17 PG events.  Overall when you look at his stats or trophies or such you see his results.  But for the kid who plays in one and thinks that will get him seen or at least have a profile then it can be discouraging if it is wrong.  I saw a kid pitch last week that came there just to get on the radar.  he threw one inning and threw well for his age.  The problem was the scorekeeper gave the wrong kid credit even when the dad tried to tell him.  I know they can go fix it later but it is a hassle.  I told him to have the coach contact PG and send an email with details and they would fix it. 

I think the difference between when my middle son was there 8 years ago and now my 2019 and it is a world of difference.  Again, the best product out there no matter what anyone says.  Even at it's worst it is still the best.  My son is blessed to have played in 4 consecutive 17U WWBA's and will make the playoffs this year.  Got offered from 17U last year as a 16u.  Finished 3rd in 15U WWBA two years ago. 

Don't make the mistake of thinking the stats matter.   In identification of prospects, especially at a single event, other than hitting a bunch of bombs or striking out 15 hitters...they matter very little.

Nor does a pitch measured incorrectly by an automated system.  As Prepster pointed out, a scouts/coaches eyes tell him about what the velocity was.  His radar gun only confirms it, not the facility's.

HS stats matter little.  Travel team stats don't matter much either.  What a coach sees with his eyes...matter.  It only takes one to get the buzz rolling.

I agree that for scouting it really doesn’t matter currently. If it were accurate it would/could be one of many tools recruiters could use but only if it has a reputation for being reasonably accurate. 

Maybe I am mistaken ,but where a single event (17U WWBA) brings in upwards of $2million in tournament fees, entry fees, etc. and who knows how much comes thru the website and diamondkast, a little more training and accurate scout notes and stats is not too much to expect?

wareagle posted:

...scout notes written about players or games that do not match the performance or what actually happens in the game.  I believe they often have a list of players they want to write up and then just write what they think people want to hear regardless if a kids results aren’t as advertised that day....

You wrote this at the beginning.

Without seeing specifically what you're talking about - I still think that comment shows you're overly focused on stats/results.  Scout notes would be more reflective of a given player as a prospect, not whether he had a good day at the plate or on the bump.  An Oh-fer day isn't really very relevant for a young Bryce Harper, Mike Trout, or future solid college player (not even necessarily a star).

Scout notes would be about how they see a 17-year old projecting into a college or pro player.  Not about yesterday's results.

To give you an example, the current (possibly all star) right fielder for the Seattle Mariners had a statistically bad junior year in HS.  Not really even a very good his senior year.  But boy-oh-boy if you saw him play you knew he was pretty darned good.  Thats why every school on the West Coast recruited him and he was eventually drafted in the 1st round.  His "results" on a given day in HS or even travel ball weren't so good, but his athleticism, his arm, his foot speed and even his swing were all well above good.

So would many other dads have been frustrated about a positive writeup on him back then?  I don't know, but I suspect there are at least a few dads in Northern California wondering how that kid who struck out 3 times in a game against their 85 mph pitcher son could've been drafted so high...and made it to the big leagues.

The type of write-up you would've seen on him those two years, based on the things you seem to want the write-up to say...wouldn't have been indicative at all of the player scouts knew he would become.  But I assure you that whatever writeup existed back then would have have been good...and made some other parents wonder if they were just writing what others wanted to hear...as you say.  They just would've been wrong...the other parents that is.

I explain to my son that the same swing that you used to go 9/13 in the last tournament is the same swing that had you go 4/11 this weekend.  Scouts (at least I'm hoping) see the swing, the movement on the field, the attitude, the athleticism, the approach, the arm, the glove, the routes, etc........I'd rather have him come home with a 0/12 and 9 snot rockets right at someone, than a 5/12 with 4 bleeders and a duck snort.  Now he may not have helped his team win with his bat by getting on, but hopefully he contributed in other manners.     

Now explaining this whole concept to my wife is another story.  

Your wife needs to listen to you this once, Russ. You're giving your son good counsel; in line with the excellent advice just preceding your post by justbaseball.

Good evaluators of talent know it when they see it.

My son pitched in the 17u WWBA tournament recently.  He's had a good summer and has generated some interest and scouts now watch when he pitches.  Nothing serious and no contact through his travel coach that we were aware of.  In this performance, he has an off the charts awful outing against a solid, but not outstanding, team.  He didn't even get out of the second inning.  In the second inning, there were two bunts that were thrown into right field, a couple of hits that ordinarily would have been routine outs that made it through a drawn-in infield.  Plus a fly ball that was mis-played for a single.  Throw in a few untimely walks, and he ended up giving up a TON of runs and was replaced.

What happened next, you ask?  A school we didn't even know was there reached out to his coach and said he loved what he saw.  His point to the coach was that he goes to games to watch failure.  And when he sees it, he looks for the reaction of the kid.  And my son went to the dugout and was the first kid greeting players as they came off the field and remained very vocal in support of his team throughout the game.  He asked my son (via his travel coach) to call him the next day.  His message was you sucked yesterday, but I saw what I needed to see.  We're recruiting you and I need you to call me every week from here on out.

And now you know the rest of the story......

My philosophy has always been if you are gonna complain you must praise. Drove to back to Atlanta to watch son throw a great game in first round of bracket play for win.  But must praise the scorekeeper. Very knowledgeable young man. Every pitch type was right and dead on in every area. Great job PG and scorekeeper on field 11 last night. He also did a great job of interacting with fans from both teams and umpires. 

I asked one of the PG guys about the articles. They have a list of the teams playing and players to watch for. Sometimes they were told who to write an article for but most of the time they talk to the scorekeepers and find out who had a great game.  I asked one of the PG guys about the articles. They have a list of the teams playing and players to watch for. Sometimes they were told who to write an article for but most of the time they talk to the scorekeepers and find out who had a great game  

Again, the best product out there

I think my son got a few write ups late after he had committed to Clemson. A few were in articles related to his team playing well and going deep into tournament and he was highlighted some. I read the write ups along the way and probably felt similar to the OP in several cases, i had heard they were "phoned in" or written in Iowa by a bunch of folks in a cube farm gleaning the stats and editing cut and paste articles. Who knows? In the end, it's fun to play at LP, in front of scouts/RCs,  better to win than lose and always a good time to have your kid play well regardless of the outcome. Enjoy this time, it flies by and you'll come to chuckle a bit at this post years from now. 

SSBuckeye posted:

My son pitched in the 17u WWBA tournament recently.  He's had a good summer and has generated some interest and scouts now watch when he pitches.  Nothing serious and no contact through his travel coach that we were aware of.  In this performance, he has an off the charts awful outing against a solid, but not outstanding, team.  He didn't even get out of the second inning.  In the second inning, there were two bunts that were thrown into right field, a couple of hits that ordinarily would have been routine outs that made it through a drawn-in infield.  Plus a fly ball that was mis-played for a single.  Throw in a few untimely walks, and he ended up giving up a TON of runs and was replaced.

What happened next, you ask?  A school we didn't even know was there reached out to his coach and said he loved what he saw.  His point to the coach was that he goes to games to watch failure.  And when he sees it, he looks for the reaction of the kid.  And my son went to the dugout and was the first kid greeting players as they came off the field and remained very vocal in support of his team throughout the game.  He asked my son (via his travel coach) to call him the next day.  His message was you sucked yesterday, but I saw what I needed to see.  We're recruiting you and I need you to call me every week from here on out.

And now you know the rest of the story......

This is outstanding and a perfect example of what a LOT of pitching coaches look for, just as hitting coaches look for negative body language after a player strikesbout or makes an error. 

I understand parents get upset when a player has a bad game while coaches and scouts are watching. But they are not expecting you to have a perfect game and coaches who have a true interest will either continue to watch or have someone watch for them.  Also they rely on their own methods (radar gun or stopwatch) to draw their own conclusions. Not charting correctly at a tournament doesn't make PG "Fake News ".   

No wonder Jerry doesn't post here anymore.

Great post Tom.

TPM posted:

No wonder Jerry doesn't post here anymore.

 

Exactly.  Too bad because he offered a lot to readers and posters here.

TPM

Not a terrible jab at PG or Jerry. Maybe the title comes off that way but it was really just for "effect". I hope Jerry does read the posts and takes it for what it truly is meant to be.  "constructive criticism".  I think most would agree that the stats and game input could be improved upon.  Most of the problems there could be solved by simply impressing upon those young boys and girls that their job is important and that it needs to be done as correctly as possible.  Alot of the issues are due to the scorekeepers not being focused on the game or simple input errors that they either don't know how or don't take time to go back and correct. it will never be 100% correct and it may not matter to scouts, but I believe it does matter to parents and coaches and they are the ones paying for the Diamondkast service.

The problem with scout notes is real as well.  I don't expect them to do negative write ups for any kid and that's not what I want . But if you go watch a kid and he has a bad day just skip the write up.  I have seen several where the kid has an off day with pitching control or whatever then you get a write up saying how in command of his pitches he was. No Doubt they are good players and they will have another outing to write about. Don't just write up something that didn't happen just because you already filmed and watched him.

PG has lots of employees and I am sure Jerry does not see every game, maybe this is one way to keep him aware.

As stated earlier, I really like most things about PG tournaments and hope it continues to improve.

I love PG and the opportunity it provides kids.  Wish it existed when I played!  But the stats issue is real.  I've sat through five seasons of PG events with my two boys, and I don't believe I've ever sat through a game where at least one glaring error wasn't made in the score book.  And I'm not talking about judgment calls of error vs. hit.  It's carelessness or lack of knowledge.  Yesterday in our game a kid on our team hit a clean ground ball single to left.  He tried to stretch it into a double and was thrown out.  It was scored a ground ball out to left field.  Last summer my son was pitching and was charged for three hits in a game that were actually fielder's choices.  He also pitched an inning in a game last year but was credited for all 6 innings of a game where his team allowed 11 runs.  It so distorted his pitching stats for the whole summer that it's hard to even look at last year's numbers.

I'm a stats junkie, and I realize the stats are likely more important to parents than schools.  And it never really mattered in the past when the stats were out on GameChanger and you had to hunt pretty hard to find stats on players.  But now that PG has integrated the stats into the athletic profiles, they effectively are giving their seal of approval as to the validity of the stats.  And in the case where mistakes are made that can dramatically effect those stats and tell a different story than reality, that's hard to take.

Rant over.

I thought mistakes with the stats can be changed via a simple email to PG? Not true?

Could be.  I'm not aware of the process if it exists.  Plus, how would they verify that you're not a parent just trying to manipulate the stats.  Always felt like we just had to live with whatever they scored.  Would be good if they did have a mechanism to correct the most egregious errors.

My boys have yet to do a PG event. They may never do one, as they’re not pro prospects, unlike many of your boys.

I’m a stats junkie, too, and if I thought the stats/writeup mattered and PG posted incorrectly,  I would write PG and get it fixed, whatever it took. 

I get the frustration but for many of the posters here the PG product is extremely useful and there doesn’t appear to be anyone on HSBBW any longer who can address complaints. 

The objective of a PG event is go and show you can play the game. Do this and the result will be positive. 

Write ups are nice. Chances are if a kid gets one coaches already know who he is. As a kid (LL to high school) my pleasure in writeups was hearing my mother bitch they either got my name wrong or spelled it wrong. When she asked if I saw the mistake I told her I never read the articles. I was at the game. 

The irony is several years ago I showed a great article on my son to my son. He looked at me like I was nuts and said, “I know what I’m hitting!” 

wareagle posted:

TPM

Not a terrible jab at PG or Jerry. Maybe the title comes off that way but it was really just for "effect". I hope Jerry does read the posts and takes it for what it truly is meant to be.  "constructive criticism".  I think most would agree that the stats and game input could be improved upon.  Most of the problems there could be solved by simply impressing upon those young boys and girls that their job is important and that it needs to be done as correctly as possible.  Alot of the issues are due to the scorekeepers not being focused on the game or simple input errors that they either don't know how or don't take time to go back and correct. it will never be 100% correct and it may not matter to scouts, but I believe it does matter to parents and coaches and they are the ones paying for the Diamondkast service.

The problem with scout notes is real as well.  I don't expect them to do negative write ups for any kid and that's not what I want . But if you go watch a kid and he has a bad day just skip the write up.  I have seen several where the kid has an off day with pitching control or whatever then you get a write up saying how in command of his pitches he was. No Doubt they are good players and they will have another outing to write about. Don't just write up something that didn't happen just because you already filmed and watched him.

PG has lots of employees and I am sure Jerry does not see every game, maybe this is one way to keep him aware.

As stated earlier, I really like most things about PG tournaments and hope it continues to improve.

I think that if you had concerns, felt that a topic entitled " fake news" would catch his attention, maybe you should just make a phone call with your concerns? 

Just sayin'.

The title probably does come across pretty harsh. Long Hot day and it sounded good at the time. The content of the message is correct.

I thought this board was here to express opinions and ideas and get feed back. Excuse me if I was wrong.  If I had an individual gripe then I might give PG a call, but this was more of just a general observation/frustration that I believe others share. 

wareagle posted:

The title probably does come across pretty harsh. Long Hot day and it sounded good at the time. The content of the message is correct.

I thought this board was here to express opinions and ideas and get feed back. Excuse me if I was wrong.  If I had an individual gripe then I might give PG a call, but this was more of just a general observation/frustration that I believe others share. 

...and you're getting feedback.  Or was your post meant to be a one-way street, i.e. you->PG?  The truth (and feedback) is...the stats don't really matter.

I'm not a PG defender - far from it.  But I'm giving you feedback that you're focused on a mostly irrelevant thing.

We can just disagree on that I guess. 

Stats do matter. If they did not matter then why would people pay to view them. They may not matter to scouts, but the scouts are not the primary source of income.  

If we just say that’s stats don’t matter then why even publish them?  Because people will pay to see them!

And as long as we are paying for them we should request that they be correct. 

You're right, Wareagle, you have a right to see stats that are accurate.  Some folks may not care; you do. But no one here can help you with getting the stats corrected.

I back up  WAREAGLE on this.   The main point of the OP was about scout notes being incorrect....the stats were an afterthought.  I witnessed a game last year at BCS (played before my son's game so I have no dog in the fight), where a pitcher no-hit or 1-hit (I can't remember) a highly rated ELITE team that was PRIMED with talent...if you get my drift.  Scout notes the next day mentioned all the hitters from the team that lost and nothing about the pitcher.  I did send a comment about that to PG cause it bothered me so much.  Might have been that kid's moment of glory and put him on the radar at a future tournament....but unless you watched in person, you never knew it happened.

All organizations doing tournaments have an issue with teenagers hired to do score keeping, but as WAREAGLE says, even  if you are the best in the business, there is still room for improvement with feedback from your customers.

justbaseball posted:

wareagle posted:

The title probably does come across pretty harsh. Long Hot day and it sounded good at the time. The content of the message is correct.

I thought this board was here to express opinions and ideas and get feed back. Excuse me if I was wrong.  If I had an individual gripe then I might give PG a call, but this was more of just a general observation/frustration that I believe others share. 

...and you're getting feedback.  Or was your post meant to be a one-way street, i.e. you->PG?  The truth (and feedback) is...the stats don't really matter.

I'm not a PG defender - far from it.  But I'm giving you feedback that you're focused on a mostly irrelevant thing.

I love PG. and I really wish PGstaff still posted on this site. I truly cherished his expert opinions and advice. But if what what the 2 of you are saying is correct, in a nutshell,  the stats are inaccurate and irrelevant, they why is PG wasting time and money providing it?

It can be quite comical. The other day we were watching a young kid (18? 19?) categorize 87 mph and 88 mph and 89 mph fastballs as changeups -- at least 15 or 20 of them. It was a hoot to see it posted on the board. Sure helped the "average fastball velocity" of the pitcher (who topped out at 92, IIRC).

At some point there will be an automated system to do it. But where's the comedy in that?

Because folks like WarEagle like them...track them...think they're important.  Look, I'm not saying PG shouldn't strive to make them accurate - but he and others tied them to the writeups about a player and I'm trying to say that a positive writeup is just because thats "what they think people want to hear regardless if a kids results" is just wrong and mostly misses the point of the PG events.  See example I gave above.

Maybe I'm trying to say that too many people get hung up on HS/travel ball stats.  This isn't new, but anyone who has gone through the process knows that its one of the less relevant things in any given game or event in identifying college or pro talent.

Here's some stats that might(?) matter from an event - home runs (or extra base hits), strikeouts, walks.  Not a whole lot more.

This site (I thought) was supposed to help younger parents understand what is really important on this journey.  I'm trying to do that.  I saw many parents focused on stats and get very confused when their .500 hitter got no college interest.  Or very frustrated when they saw another HS hitter with a .200 average get a big ride at a D1 powerhouse.  This scenario isn't routine, but it isn't abnormal either.  If your son hits .500 at a PG event - enjoy it!  But for goodness sakes don't give it one thought if they record it as .300.  It just doesn't matter.

if you cannot process poor PG write ups and fake news you will have a hard time when your son is on a national stage. the press loves you one day and hates you the next.   i decided to stay off social media, , websites and opinion based sites. they are just trying to make a buck and have no idea what is really going on.. let it slide

I was joking about the pitch categorizations, above, and yes there may be recordkeeping problems with Diamondkast (substitutions seem to be a particular problem), but I for one think the scout notes are awesome. It's really cool for the kids to read about themselves or players they know. And what's the downside? Same thing with PBR "comments" they publish about a player. It's mostly just reporting what happened ("Player X hit Y mph"), they don't really put negative stuff in it, and it's fun for the kids mentioned and those that know them and wish them well.

Also, same with tweets put out by PG, PBR, etc. It's fun for the kids highlighted. 

It seems to me when you start selling the stats, diamonkast, you have an obligation to get correct, does that sound like to much to ask? 

PG is great, it is a money machine, it should absolutely do better when it charges extra.

Oh and for god sake let’s stop using first names, it sounds like a need to establish credibility due to knowing names....nobody cares. Post your opinion and move on like most of the rest of us. 

old_school posted:

Oh and for god sake let’s stop using first names, it sounds like a need to establish credibility due to knowing names....nobody cares. Post your opinion and move on like most of the rest of us. 

Is this because I called justbaseball Tom who I have just about known for as long as your kid is in years?

That used to be the best about the HSBBW. Meeting people here then having our kids later cross paths or meeting their sons along the way.

How many people have you ever met from the HSBBW?

Anyway, I have a much better idea, that would be to think first before one posts the title of the topic!  

Good move Wareagle,  we all know that those words have negative connotations.

RoadRunner posted:

justbaseball posted:

wareagle posted:

The title probably does come across pretty harsh. Long Hot day and it sounded good at the time. The content of the message is correct.

I thought this board was here to express opinions and ideas and get feed back. Excuse me if I was wrong.  If I had an individual gripe then I might give PG a call, but this was more of just a general observation/frustration that I believe others share. 

...and you're getting feedback.  Or was your post meant to be a one-way street, i.e. you->PG?  The truth (and feedback) is...the stats don't really matter.

I'm not a PG defender - far from it.  But I'm giving you feedback that you're focused on a mostly irrelevant thing.

I love PG. and I really wish PGstaff still posted on this site. I truly cherished his expert opinions and advice. But if what what the 2 of you are saying is correct, in a nutshell,  the stats are inaccurate and irrelevant, they why is PG wasting time and money providing it?

People will pay for it. It allows the marketing of various subscription levels. 

Also, what goes on the scoreboard for velocity and pitch (fastball/curveball/etc) is not what is recorded in PG database. That is from trackman. 

TPM posted:

old_school posted:

Oh and for god sake let’s stop using first names, it sounds like a need to establish credibility due to knowing names....nobody cares. Post your opinion and move on like most of the rest of us. 

Because I called justbaseball Tom who I have known for as long as your kid is in years.

That used to be the best about the HSBBW. Meeting people here then having our kids later cross paths or meeting their sons along the way.

How many people have you ever met here?

 

About five last night. It was a 2020/21 pizza party. 

Was hoping to meet TPM in florida couple weeks ago, but timing just didn’t work out. Hopefully next summer. 

Through another esteemed board member, my son picked up on an out of state team last summer for almost a month. Played a couple with them this year. Just finished yesterday. I’ve met at least 15 families over the two summers, several I chat with monthly. A couple are coming back to Texas this fall to visit and get in a couple hunts. I may be coming up to Tennessee for some AT backpacking with a few others. 

I even met this guy from this board and had long conversations with him. He is from CALIFORNIA!  At first pass, he seems normal. Unbelievable!

I have met and talked to some of the board members many here may considered CRAZY!  You may or may not be right.

Although getting to the NE will probably not happen, I do have RJM on my bucket list. 

Off to play a team from Kansas City area. I make it a point to talk to other team parents. 

Oh, and I did this July 4 as gift to wife and daughter. 

Good for you!! This is why the HSBBW is awesome!

I know you by first name but dont want to get old school all upset! 

Go44dad posted:

Oh, and I did this July 4 as gift to wife and daughter. 

You are hysterical!  Thats an awesome view!

My two cents.... It's hard being a parent shelling out the dough for lessons, showcases , tourney's, food, gas, hotel .... believe me I know.... and then the expectations of the PG events, the scouts, recruiters.... you want with all your being for your son to be the best he can be at the right time.  And when something throws a wrench in it, example..... a young PG guy not paying attention, diamondkast not working, the radar gun not calibrated it can be frustrating..  

Please understand the recruiters and scouts do not care about the results of one game even two games... they do not care about with PG thinks.....  they are looking for potential , projectable skills and they are far better at evaluations than we are... 

When I first took 2013 to an AC tryout I thought we had hit the pinnacle.... I was all about the gun readings, what teams were there  I was green as a pea. 

After countless PG tourney's, AC, ECP, Pro Days, home visits ,  NCAA regionals, Juco games , D1 games, D3 games, scrimmages, Jupiter's , Fort Myers... you name it Connie Mack  I can tell you I have learned a ton..... but I still cannot eval talent like SEC recruiters and Pro scouts.....  they see so many players for so many years....  and you guys are worrying about stats and PG ?  

Go enjoy the events , being with your son , playing against future MLB'ers  .. hoping it doesn't rain... do the best you can and you will land where you should be .  The "machine" has a way of putting D1 talent at D1 schools and academic talent at D3 schools and so on.   

Again I know its frustrating but just let it go,  and if and when you talk to recruiters, they do not want your stat numbers, they do not want to know how good he is, how good he can be and how good you think he is, do not make excuses.... IF your conversation goes that way , you are not helping the situation.  Be nice, talk about the weather, answer questions asked of you, be humble, be honest ... these schools are very much interested in the person as well as the player.... 

ok I'm done for now... 

Very said, I pretty much agree with all your points. I think when you charge extra for product and your use the marketing point of how it helps the experience...they should put more effort into making it right.

It is amazing that simple point, which isnt even a criticism but a comment on the business model is not universally agreed upon.

well, it's emotional.  Maybe that's it, when stats and "objective" writeups imply that the process is data driven.

I can't tell the difference between a mid major d1 guy and a strong d3 guy and it drives me crazy, too.

Maybe this is obvious, but it seems like Perfect Game is The Man and we mere mortals feel resentment and beholden to it at the same time.

Backdorslider offers sage advice. He has been through this many times.

I agree if you pay for a service, you should expect it to be accurate. However, think about what's going on, how many games in a day and who is taking notes, who is entering data? If you aren't happy, don't pay money if you feel the results aren't what you are expecting.  I personally have no dog in this fight, but it seems every year there are complaints when you all know what you have gotten yourself into, a very, very large tournament. First year, since LP existence , complaints have included entrance fees, parking fees, couldn't bring in coolers, high cost of food, weather, poor stat taking, poor write ups. As bacdorslider mentioned, go and have fun, enjoy watching your son play, enjoy this time together. Dont take your frustration or sitting there on a hot day on an organization who is trying to get your player exposure and play some good baseball.  One thing to remember, if the player is identified as a D1 player, or possibly a D2,  they get the write up, but it will be the guy who signed at Big State U, more than likely.  That is what they do. I feel the same way about D1 baseball. It is ALL about big state U and those players. I won't pay for their paid content, only for the scores. 

On another note, son called last night to say hello. Said all the coaches were talking about that it was the best tourney ever at LP....NO RAIN. Got to see all games, no crazy re scheduling or late night games. Got to see all of their 19s and a few uncommitted. 

My son is worn out. His day started with the first game and didn't end until the last game was played. That was every day of the tourney. He went on to say as Dave did to TPM that it was one of the best he has attended. He said he saw some really good players and some guys he feels they can get on campus. These events are an opportunity. An opportunity for players to be seen by a multitude of coaches from all levels of the game. An opportunity for the players to compete against guys from all over. An opportunity to be tested for some for the first time really all year. 

I understand the frustration on the stats issue. I get it. You pay for something you want it to be right. There are ways to address this and I am sure PG has heard about this and I am sure they will work to make it as accurate as possible. I also hope people understand that in the big scheme of things that doesn't matter outside of it "irking" you. I would suggest not paying for it and not focusing on it. But that's just my opinion.

One thing is for sure if you focus on the negative you can find you will have a hard time seeing the positive and enjoying the experience. College coaches are looking for players. They trust what they can see. There is a reason they go and a reason they invest so much time putting their eyes directly on the players. 

TPM posted:

 

How many people have you ever met from the HSBBW?.

2 so far, and hopefully a bunch more over the next several years.  It was great meeting Zia in Indianapolis last week when both our kids were there for a 15U tournament.

I have to agree with the idea that the talent evaluators in both college and pro ball have a different lens than most parents do.   Although my son seldom provides PG newsworthy performances, I have learned to shift my evaluation of my son’s performance / abilities to how many phone calls / emails he recieves after the PG event. 

For the OP.....in every email and phone call thus far....no one talks about my son’s PG stats, high school stats or the fact he is not one of the top 100 ranked players in the Nation. 

My son receives and has received texts after almost every game he pitches in travel and high school. They usually state info that they would only know if they were at the game or checking gamechanger or diamondkast. Such as innings pitched, strikeouts, etc.  Coaches may not place much value in them but they do follow. 

wareagle posted:

My son receives and has received texts after almost every game he pitches in travel and high school. They usually state info that they would only know if they were at the game or checking gamechanger or diamondkast. Such as innings pitched, strikeouts, etc.  Coaches may not place much value in them but they do follow. 

I believe stats can be of value at the amateur level providing they are accurate, nonbiased, as well as, the level of competition is noted.  Mowing down the average high school team is typically not as impressive as mowing down a team of top prospects at a PG event.   

3and2Fastball posted:

TPM posted:

 

How many people have you ever met from the HSBBW?.

2 so far, and hopefully a bunch more over the next several years.  It was great meeting Zia in Indianapolis last week when both our kids were there for a 15U tournament.

Four for me. 

Son is playing this week In Auburndale Florida In the 2021 Wilson Premier if anyone is in the area. 

wareagle posted:

My son receives and has received texts after almost every game he pitches in travel and high school. They usually state info that they would only know if they were at the game or checking gamechanger or diamondkast. Such as innings pitched, strikeouts, etc.  Coaches may not place much value in them but they do follow. 

I hate to seem like I'm picking on you - but you're still focused on the wrong thing.

The coach texts that to show your son he watched and begin the conversation.  The coach does care about strikeouts (see my earlier post) and somewhat about innings pitched (more like K/IP is relevant) or maybe pitches thrown (read that as efficiency).  Not many other stats matter too much to the coach.  If any of those numbers was off, unless off by a ton, the coach wouldn't care.  (Hopefully you wouldn't correct him).

The coach cares about how hard your son throws, is he left-handed or right-handed, how tall he is and how much he weighs (is there room for growth?).  The coach cares if your son looks athletic, if he’s shaving yet.   The coach wants to see if your son commands (not throw for strikes, but commands) 3 pitches.  2 is ok, 3 is better.  The coach cares about your son's demeanor on the mound - what happens when $hit hits the fan? - is almost more important than when things are going well.  Does he melt?  Or does he compete?  The coach wants to see your son pitch and imagine through an experienced lens what he could be in 2-3 years.  And the coach cares about mom and dad - as in, will they be a problem if your son is in their program.

True story - twice I saw dads of players at our older son's college go to the press box to try and correct stats.  While I liked both dads, I thought it was incredibly embarrassing.

That whole paragraph above isn't about stats at all.  And they're all more important than even the writeup PG supplies.

I take your point earlier - you paid for something (stats and writeups), so you oughta get a quality product.  But IMO you're transmitting too much that you're focused on those things and not quite understanding that the reality is they just don't matter much - in HS or at a PG event.

Let me give you a straight scoop comparison for 2 pitchers I know quite well...Junior year in HS.

Pitcher #1, 7-5, 2.80 ERA, 100 Ks in 70 innings.

Pitcher #2, 11-0, 1.70 ERA, 65 Ks in 70 innings.

Which pitcher played on the USA national team?  Which one had the most offers?  Which one was the Baseball America HS All American?  Which one was drafted out of HS?

I'm sure you can guess by now the answer to ALL of those questions is Pitcher #1.

Truth is, I don’t go to perfect game or any other events with my primary focus on scouts. Sure I look around and it’s neat to see who’s there but that’s it. I go to watch my son and lots of other boys whom i have literally watched grow up.  I have no control at that point what scouts see or don’t see. My son has been committed for a while and I think it’s a good fit for him. 

I do enjoy following kids we have played with and against over the years.  Most times the way I follow is on gamechanger, etc. I love seeing thier successes and progression. And yes I like to compare stats for my son against his peers. For my own evaluation,  I simply would really like accurate information. 

PS- I don’t take anything on this board personal or intend for anything I say to be taken that way. Just a way to voice opinions and disagreement is not always bad. 

Again, this is not to take issue with the OP's original assertion that PG should make every effort to provide quality statistical information. They should. However, when it comes to other scholastic-level stats, recruiters and scouts virtually never pay any attention to them.

Not only is the quality of the scorekeeping notoriously uneven; but, scholastic stats are skewed appreciably by the uneven competition that many scholastic teams play. This goes for all levels: high school, travel, American Legion, and others.

If you're a parent who is concerned about poor quality stats because you think they might negatively affect the opinions of recruiters and scouts, you need to find something else to be concerned about. Scholastic stats are a non-issue when it comes to evaluating a player's  worthiness for the next level. That's why the evaluators go to such ends and extremes to see players play in person.

One of the things everyone seems to forget is that the PG website and DiamondKast are one facet of the revenue stream that PG has, along with showcases and tournaments. Used to be a time that you could look at a player's profile and see the self reported stuff like GPA and standardized test scores, but now PG has monetized that data for "scout level" subscribers only. It used to be kind of handy so you could tell if your kid met the basic academic profile of a recruit at an Ivy school, service academy, etc. Follow the revenue...PG has.

I know PGStaff used to come on here and provide advice that people found valuable, but he certainly could not handle the criticism of his product. These weren't personal attacks on him, it was about PG as a business. He would post (and they are still out there) about all the kids he has helped gain visibility and via that they were able to pursue baseball at the next level, and I am sure he did/does. But let's be honest finally, ok? Perfect Game is a long way away from how the company started, was envisioned, or probably from what Ford dreamt it would do.

PG promotes the same kids relentlessly, their objective is about driving revenue for the company and they create as many ways as possible to do that as they can. Kumar Rocker throws 98 and played in XYZ showcase (which he never paid a penny for, BTW) and is committed to Vanderbilt. If I want to play at Vandy or a similar school, I have to try to do the same things (this is the trap people fall prey to), and in the process drop TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLAR. I met the father of Jake Cave (former LSU commit, currently with the Twins organization I believe) at his PG All American game in 2011 and asked him "What does it take to get your kid to this level?" His answer was an eye opener "be prepared to spend a ton of money."

Perfect Game is at the front of the line with their hands out. Why let people pay another service for PG game stats (Gamechanger) when they could monetize that facet of his product? Want to see the kid your DNA created play in the tournament you spent a ton of money to be part of? Pony up the gate fee. Oh, don't forget to pay the parking attendant either. It's grotesque really. But it's not just PG, to be fair. PBR is another one who has essentially monetized the recruiting process. Add to the mix every college baseball program in America with their need to fund their program via college camps filled with kids who have absolutely no chance to ever play at that level. But are they to blame, or is it the parents with the money who are gladly handing it over? You don't have one without the other. I just wish it wasn't this way. It really saddens me.

I may be wrong but has anyone read the article where the parent was kidnapped, held at gun point and forced to attend a PG event? If what PG did was not so successful would anyone attend? How is it successful?

PG provides a venue for very good players to play with and against other very good players. This brings the decision makers to those venues both college level and professional level. This provides players with instant feedback both how they actually stack up metrics wise and the ability to put those metrics in play. It allows them to know exactly what those decision makers think. And that matters. 

If you got a kid who can't stand out on a HS field vs the local HS talent and you decide to shell out thousands of dollars to put him on the showcase baseball circuit the only person you should be pissed at when he doesn't get what you want him to get is yourself. I guess PG could simply say "We don't want your money. Your not good enough. You suck go home."

There was a time when the really good player from BFE didn't have venues to see where he stacked up. He didn't have the opportunities there are today. He had to settle. He never got challenged. He didn't get to be around other players with his or more talent and a work ethic as strong or stronger. He missed out. Yes he missed out. 

Do you have to spend thousands of dollars? No. Absolutely not. Do you have to buy the best glove? Do you have to buy the best bat? Do you have to provide the best opportunity you can possibly provide for your player? Hell no. And if it's not that big of a deal for you to do that I have no problem with that. But if it is I have no problem with that either. Maybe you will build a bond with your kid that will last a lifetime. Maybe those experiences will be life long memories. Maybe you won't have as much money you would have had. You can have that bass boat? You can take more vacations? You can focus that energy in other directions. But for those that did put that "money" into this deal and did invest all they could let me hear you come on here when your is all done and moved on in life and tell me you regret it. You regret having a journey you could ride with your son. You regret the trips together. You regret the meals together. You regret the time spent together. You regret memories made on and off the field together. You regret knowing you did all you could do to give him the best opportunities at the game he loves. Come on lets hear it.

You know how many times I used to hear parents complain about how "No one comes to see the kids play!" "You can't get seen in this town." Now people bitch about how much it cost to enjoy the opportunities others get to enjoy. Maybe you should recheck your priorities a little? Or maybe not? Maybe you shouldn't try to showcase something until its got something to showcase? Maybe if he does have something to showcase you should be smarter about how you spend your money? Or maybe not. Maybe you should start your own opportunity providing endeavor and remedy this scourge on society? You know Dads and Mom's spending actual time with their kids and being engaged in their dreams. We have too much of that going on in this world anyway right? 

Jerry was smart when he decided to walkaway from this site. He doesn't need it. I know him personally and I know his heart. And I know he cares about the young men and their families. And I know he's far from perfect just not as far from it as me. You can invest as much as your willing to invest. You can provide as much or as little opportunity as you wish. But I have never regretted one penny I spent helping my son realize his dream or any penny I have spent helping another player in this game. And I understood I wasn't always going to walk feeling like it was money well spent. It was a shot and I took it. But you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take. Spend wisely? Yes. But that pertains to anything you do. But at least I don't have to wonder if I did all I could have done. 

For those that believe that this high priced baseball is too high of a price to pay and not worth it there is a simple solution. Don't do it. If your really good you can go to the local college camp and impress. You can find all kinds of ways to be seen. You will limit options. You will not know who you stack up with the rest. You will not have the experiences others have. So it's a personal choice and there is no one size fits all. You have to decide how all in you are. How all in you can afford to be. How all in should you be. It comes down to a personal choice and I am glad there are opportunities in spite of the fact they are not perfect. 

"And I understood I wasn't always going to walk feeling like it was money well spent. It was a shot and I took it. But you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take. Spend wisely? Yes. But that pertains to anything you do. But at least I don't have to wonder if I did all I could have done." Coach May 

Yup. I just wish my instincts to spend wisely were stronger. Why can't PG help me with that?

I know PGStaff used to come on here and provide advice that people found valuable, but he certainly could not handle the criticism of his product. These weren't personal attacks on him, it was about PG as a business.

A lot of it was irrational and very personal. There was no reason for him to stay and take the abuse about five people repeatedly laid on him. PG’s absense is the board’s loss. In the past he went out of his way to make things happens for poster’s kids. PG got poster’s kids on teams. He got poster’s kids into events they missed the registration deadline. 

You don’t go to PG events to be discovered. The studs have already been discovered. Everyone else needs to lay the groundwork before they go. The best groundwork is a credible travel coach contacting college coaches on behalf of players.

If a player wants to throw spaghetti off the wall to see what sticks at a PG event he better have at least one skill that makes him standout .

Sometimes I wonder if dad’s see their son’s as D1 prospects in 14u. Then they get upset with PG and nitpick when it turns out they’re not D1 prospects at 17u.

Please, don't get me started on this. With all due respect, the recruiting aspect of college baseball, for the non-studs who are slam dunks that a blind man can tell are D1 caliber, those kids who are hoping to continue to wear the uniform (even at the JUCO level) and are one of the 3000 guys who categorize as "top 500" and "Top 1000" has been completely monetized for the profit of companies and as a funding mechanism for the school. To not admit that would be disingenuous, Coach May. Coaches and a few smart guys figured it out in the late 1990's and have been swimming in the profits ever since. I'm not saying they aren't entitled to it, because in baseball it's all about "if you build it, they will come," but to discount the fact that college baseball recruiting has been overtaken as a profit generator for private businesses, recruiting services, or as a funding source for college baseball programs is turning a blind eye to this issue, and in my mind a serious problem.

I'm in complete agreement that every single parent could just close the wallet and purse and walk away from this. I know a few parents who are ready to do just that, because at every turn, every aspect of the college recruiting cycle for their players they are being asked to shell out money. I know the argument that if you want to pay for college, the worst way to plan for that is by making the mistaken assumption of a full-ride and pouring good money after bad when there has been ZERO interest from colleges. Ah, but then that one e-mail comes in that gives you a glimmer of hope, and then the addiction starts again. What if?! Rinse and repeat, right?

So, again, the companies and schools are not to blame per se, because as you said you can just say no, walk away and reflect on the "what if we had only ..." scenario later on in life. Or, like many parents, you hold out hope that you can help your child achieve their dream. So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years? Or maybe some good-hearted coaches are putting teams together to get these kids in front of some college coaches or pro scouts (altruistic motive), or maybe its just further evidence of people even further down the chain creating revenue for themselves? Anyone's guess, and certainly it could all stop if the wallets and purses of the parents closed to these "opportunities." But that is where the problem lies...these "opportunities" more and more cost $$$ to experience or avail yourself to. Not just entry fees. Airfare, hotels, gas, food, rental cars...etc. I know there has to be someone working on a book on the absolute money pit the pursuit of college baseball has become. At least I hope there is.

Very well stated, Coach May.  Personally, my son benefited from the PG events, and as Coach May mentions, we enjoyed all of our trips to them.  Were there times when the write-ups weren't perfect, or the All Tourney Teams didn't include him when they should?  Of course, but overall, we had good experiences.

We are definitely a middle class family, and as such, we had to pick and choose what tourneys, showcases, etc. that he could attend.  Sometimes it meant we had to send him with others, but I wouldn't change it for the world.  I for one am thankful that PG and others provided these opportunities for him.

smokeminside posted:

"And I understood I wasn't always going to walk feeling like it was money well spent. It was a shot and I took it. But you miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take. Spend wisely? Yes. But that pertains to anything you do. But at least I don't have to wonder if I did all I could have done." Coach May 

Yup. I just wish my instincts to spend wisely were stronger. Why can't PG help me with that?

They are, now with Scoutday, which Perfect is touting as a way to have video of your kid evaluated by a PG scout and scored by PG (got that e-mail today). Wait, if you can be scouted via video, why is there a need for showcases or even tournaments then? How much merit should you put into one of these evaluations?

"So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years?"

I would answer that "Yes" there are more college caliber kids now, and that the players are definitely better now than there were in the 90's.  Just look at the velos of the kids today.  90 back then would get you in a great spot, now, it generally takes more than just hitting that mark.  

I would argue that the club baseball teams that you are apparently bashing as money makers are one of the main reasons.  Club baseball allowed my son to receive daily instruction from a former D-1, 2 Time All American, a Stanford Catcher, and a myriad of other former pro & college players.  Daily learning through their practices, conversations about the mental aspects of the game undoubtedly helped Ryno along the way. 

There is no question there are better players now and more college caliber kids, because they are practicing more, eating better, training harder, etc.

A lot of people spend too much money on sports too soon. Then they get upset with the venues when it doesn’t pan out. You can’t purchase talent. 

I’ll start with the disclaimer I played D1 ball. It gave me a head start on baseball knowledge. It gave my kids a head start genetically. I provided the instruction for my kids as their coach.

It wasn't until high school when it was obvious my kids had genuine talent that I started spending money. They both went to speed camp to become faster. They were already fast. My son had his swing changed after soph year of high school. He was already a good hitter. He had to have it beaten into his head with reps not to pull everything. There were times to drive the ball the other way. 

My kids played on travel teams before showcasing I coached (with other former dad college players) for minimal cost.** Their 17u (baseball) and 18u (softball) teams that traveled the East Coast were heavily subsidized. His scout league team was free/sponsored by a former MLBer.

When I see parents pouring out 5k per year starting at 10u I just shake my head.

** I met a dad who didn’t know baseball who found qualified dad coaches and put together a team for his son to play on. He was GM. He did all the recruiting, organization and paper work. All the coaches had to do was coach. 

rynoattack posted:

"So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years?"

I would answer that "Yes" there are more college caliber kids now, and that the players are definitely better now than there were in the 90's.  Just look at the velos of the kids today.  90 back then would get you in a great spot, now, it generally takes more than just hitting that mark.  

I would argue that the club baseball teams that you are apparently bashing as money makers are one of the main reasons.  Club baseball allowed my son to receive daily instruction from a former D-1, 2 Time All American, a Stanford Catcher, and a myriad of other former pro & college players.  Daily learning through their practices, conversations about the mental aspects of the game undoubtedly helped Ryno along the way. 

There is no question there are better players now and more college caliber kids, because they are practicing more, eating better, training harder, etc.

Don't put words in my mouth, I wasn't bashing anyone.

GaryMe posted:

rynoattack posted:

"So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years?"

I would answer that "Yes" there are more college caliber kids now, and that the players are definitely better now than there were in the 90's.  Just look at the velos of the kids today.  90 back then would get you in a great spot, now, it generally takes more than just hitting that mark.  

I would argue that the club baseball teams that you are apparently bashing as money makers are one of the main reasons.  Club baseball allowed my son to receive daily instruction from a former D-1, 2 Time All American, a Stanford Catcher, and a myriad of other former pro & college players.  Daily learning through their practices, conversations about the mental aspects of the game undoubtedly helped Ryno along the way. 

There is no question there are better players now and more college caliber kids, because they are practicing more, eating better, training harder, etc.

Don't put words in my mouth, I wasn't bashing anyone.

"but to discount the fact that college baseball recruiting has been overtaken as a profit generator for private businesses, recruiting services, or as a funding source for college baseball programs is turning a blind eye to this issue, and in my mind a serious problem."

You're right, it sounds like you are behind it 100%...

Here is one of your posts from earlier this year, so tell me again that you aren't "bashing" anyone, and that I am putting words in your mouth?  I think my initial read was correct, and after researching your previous posts, I am 100% right.  You obviously have an issue, and to use a term you used earlier, you are being a bit "disingenuous".

Calling PG's folks a "Crack team of scouts", and saying they allow people to "buy ratings", is an attack on their character, and I for one don't appreciate it.

rynoattack posted:

GaryMe posted:

rynoattack posted:

"So yeah, I guess it's a parental problem...except how many club baseball team were there in the 1990's vice now? Is it because there are that many more college caliber kids out there because all of the sudden the coaching got that much better over the years?"

I would answer that "Yes" there are more college caliber kids now, and that the players are definitely better now than there were in the 90's.  Just look at the velos of the kids today.  90 back then would get you in a great spot, now, it generally takes more than just hitting that mark.  

I would argue that the club baseball teams that you are apparently bashing as money makers are one of the main reasons.  Club baseball allowed my son to receive daily instruction from a former D-1, 2 Time All American, a Stanford Catcher, and a myriad of other former pro & college players.  Daily learning through their practices, conversations about the mental aspects of the game undoubtedly helped Ryno along the way. 

There is no question there are better players now and more college caliber kids, because they are practicing more, eating better, training harder, etc.

Don't put words in my mouth, I wasn't bashing anyone.

"but to discount the fact that college baseball recruiting has been overtaken as a profit generator for private businesses, recruiting services, or as a funding source for college baseball programs is turning a blind eye to this issue, and in my mind a serious problem."

You're right, it sounds like you are behind it 100%...

You are conflating my comment about the increased number of club teams currently vs 1990s with my comment that college recruiting is an industry. I wasn't poking club baseball programs in the eye, Einstein.

Who believes their kid does PG events for a score? My son did them so his play could validate what his travel coach told the college coaches about him. The only scores that mattered were sixty time, throwing velocity, etc.. And the college coaches do their own.

PG was just a quality venue to perform where other quality players show up to perform. More than anything it was validation of belonging on the same field with the other players.

I could see the inevitable devolution from the get go from the title. SMH

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DmYLrxR0Y8

RJM posted:

Who believes their kid does PG events for a score? My son did them so his play could validate what his travel coach told the college coaches about him. The only scores that mattered were sixty time, throwing velocity, etc.. And the college coaches do their own.

PG was just a quality venue to perform where other quality players show up to perform. More than anything it was validation of belonging on the same field with the other players.

Scores, validation, whatever. If Hannity brings up an old post I commented on I don't even know how long ago about how a kid got a PG Grade of "7" and my very accurate reply of essentially pay, play, be evaluated and received grade is construed as anything other than 100% accurate, then Lord help "Mr. Truth in Posting."

You get a grade, which is comprised of a mash up of quantifiable measurable like a 60 time or throwing velo and then take the subjective measures the keen eye of the PG scouts put to the kids...put that in the Wonka-vator and viola! You get a grade. If grades don't matter, then PG needs to either get rid of them or whatever, I really don't care. It's just another rainbow for parents and kids to chase...I got a higher grade than Johnny. Because after all, we really only care about validation, right stud?

You’re still missing the point of what the process and PG is all about. It’s not about PG scores. The process is about each player ultimately finding the right place/college to have a quality college baseball experience.  For some people part of the process is PG events. For some people it’s a waste of time and money. PG/Jerry posted many times PG isn’t for everyone. He posted he doesn’t want anyone wasting money. But can you imagine the response if PG started telling dad’s, “Your kid doesn’t belong here. You’re wasting time and money.” Jerry would need a body guard. 

I don’t believe everyone who plays D1 needs to go to GA and FL. There are plenty of other places to be recruited regionally. My son was already seen at SelectFest and Atlantic 100 in the Mid Atlantic/Northeast area. But if you want to see how you stack up against the best PG in GA and FL is where you go. A kid may be ranked in the 500-1000 and isn’t going to change it. But he can go prove to others and himself he belongs on the field with the best.

I think the most important thing to clear up in this entire thread is this:

You don't throw spaghetti OFF a wall to see if it sticks.  You throw it ON the wall!!

RJM posted:

You’re still missing the point of what the process and PG is all about. It’s not about PG scores.

But PG showcases do what? They give you a score? Whether you go there for that or not is immaterial, because you get that score regardless. Those scores factor into their national player rankings. National player rankings on PG play a factor in college scout perception of a player's skills. Granted, they are going to have to pass the eye test, but now you have the opportunity to get an eye test based on the score/grade and PG national ranking. I'm validating the business model, yet vehemently disagree with it.

Playing in a PG tournament is indeed a great place to see if you have a game to play against the big boys, RJM. But you need to put that in context. Very few of the kids who go there end up going against guys throwing 90+. Even though the number of 90+ guys increases every year at the WWBA and other big events, the average FB velo at a WWBA event is low 80's...because you can't go into an event that large without other guys to eat innings. 90+ guys get used sparingly in pool play to save for the playoff round. You chances of going up against a highly nationally ranked stud pitcher are like purchasing a lottery ticket. Those guys are only going to be throwing at LakePoint and if your team is facing them at LakePoint you really should consider a trip to Vegas next, because you are one lucky cat.

My point is, getting to a PG tournament has a purpose of playing higher quality competition in front of college coaches and performing well enough to garner attention. You need to do the leg work ahead of time to ensure you have some coaches at those games to get eyes on you. Not all the competition at PG events is world class, but for the most part its much better than regional tournaments. But again, this all comes at a price.

GARYME,

Your profile says that you are from NY and you are trying to get your catcher son on a D3 roster.

PG tourneys are not usually targeted toward D3 players but I could be wrong. Did you know that. 

I am not trying to be snarky,  just trying to get a read on what exactly is bothering you.

TPM posted:

GARYME,

Your profile says that you are from NY and you are trying to get your catcher son on a D3 roster.

PG tourneys are not usually targeted toward D3 players but I could be wrong. Did you know that. 

I am not trying to be snarky,  just trying to get a read on what exactly is bothering you.

My snark meter must be on the fritz, because I never said a damn thing about my kid and whether or not he has ever gone to a PG event. My beef is with the monetization of college recruiting...period. It's not limited to PG. There are sooooo many people cashing in that produce nothing of value for the athletes, it's really sad. Guys who never compete against D1 guys can't really determine they are D2 and D3 guys until they do, right? Hell, PG WWBA tournaments field as many (or more) mediocre to bad teams as they do good to great teams. This I can tell you first hand. Not their fault, they aren't exactly screening teams for quality when the registration payment comes in. My ire is not based on any particular outcome that has or has not impacted my son, we know where he is at on the spectrum and are blitzing the schools in that area. If he plays ball in college, he plays ball in college. We all know his chances of going pro are about as solid as Rynoattack's chances of landing a coveted guest appearance on his buddy Hannity's program. But the point I am making (and I have received several PMs of people who have been on this board a long while who said they agree with me but won't come out and say it in an open forum) is having tournaments where coaches can come to see many fish in the same pond is not enough...we have to have showcases, now we have virtual evaluation reports, etc...etc...

I fully expect that at some point we will have the ability to send a DNA sample from an amniocentesis to see if Billy is going to be a LHP with a wicked curveball or not

What some might characterize as the "monetization of college recruiting," others might refer to as the "organization of college recruiting." Regardless of how one might wish to label it, there's little doubt that the process of identifying and evaluating players worthy of playing at any of the levels above high school is a great deal much more efficient today than it was 15-to-20 years ago.

I happen to think that PG deserves a fair amount of credit for getting us to this point, but so do a number of other showcase/tournament organizers (some of which have come and gone...anyone remember Team One?), this and other websites focused on the scholastic player, and better organized scouting programs at both the college and professional levels. There's also no question that the internet, itself, deserves some of the credit for serving as the communication vehicle that makes so much of the sharing of information and enhanced visibility that's so important to this more efficient process.

As a result of this, the probability of a player "falling through the cracks" is much less today...and that's a very good thing.

Have some individuals prospered monetarily from this series of related developments? Of course, they have. But, I think it's equally hard to argue that many players and their families have benefited from the maturation of a process that makes it much easier to be identified and considered for additional years in baseball beyond high school than might have been the case in the past.

Boy did this thing take off!!  

People often look for someone else to blame.  You allowed your emotions about baseball, your son, your dreams to be 'monetized' by a business?  I say so what.  Your money, your choice.  If you didn't walk away in time?, your problem, not theirs.

justbaseball posted:

Boy did this thing take off!!  

People often look for someone else to blame.  You allowed your emotions about baseball, your son, your dreams to be 'monetized' by a business?  I say so what.  Your money, your choice.  If you didn't walk away in time?, your problem, not theirs.

FWIW, my son did exactly 1 PG showcase. He performed about as I expected, was graded HIGHER than I expected. That grade has meant diddly squat in his recruiting.

I am judicious where we spend our recruiting budget. Not complaining about anything personal here, it's more a philosophical thing. I was talking to a long-time scout for the Atlanta Braves the other day and he asked what it costs to play a summer on my son's club team. I don't think it's anything outrageous (about $1,600 for the summer, include 2 major regional tournaments, 3 workouts a week) but he was flabbergasted. To me, it's par for the course, but it's about perspective. The old timers cannot believe the $$$$ families are throwing out the window on baseball now days.

I think perspective is critical. I'm willing to bet the people who have responded critically to my posts have probably had kids who played D1 baseball, committed to schools early in the recruiting process, and were essentially the exception. I know RJM produces super off-spring, so he's a no brainer. Rynoattack I think has a kid at Purdue or Wake Forest or some ACC school. Willing to bet the others are of a similar ilk. You likely haven't seen the "average" high school baseball recruiting experience that most recruits experience.

You don’t have to travel to GA and FL to determine if a kid is a D1 prospect or not. There are plenty of regional events to determine fit. The coach of a quality travel team is likely to have a good idea. 

Gary - I really don't understand your logic much at all.  I have two sons, both played D1, but that makes my advice/opinion irrelevant?

Son #1 went to one PG showcase, after I did a ton of research.  Thats all he needed, didn't really need that in retrospect - he had lots of choices.  Scouts, colleges found him without any showcase.

Son #2 attended zero PG showcases.  Why?  He was a 5-10, 85 mph pitcher - he would never have showed well in that venue.  Again, I did my research, I knew the reasons to attend or not attend.

Both sons played on one of the best travel teams in the country.  We never spent anything close to what you have for that travel team.

Pretty efficient if you ask me!!

Seems to me, I (and others like me) could've advised you how to spend your money more wisely and not had your emotions monetized.  The problem is, you rule folks like me out of having a valid opinion....because our sons were too good?

Odd.

GaryMe posted:

TPM posted:

GARYME,

Your profile says that you are from NY and you are trying to get your catcher son on a D3 roster.

PG tourneys are not usually targeted toward D3 players but I could be wrong. Did you know that. 

I am not trying to be snarky,  just trying to get a read on what exactly is bothering you.

My snark meter must be on the fritz, because I never said a damn thing about my kid and whether or not he has ever gone to a PG event. My beef is with the monetization of college recruiting...period. It's not limited to PG. There are sooooo many people cashing in that produce nothing of value for the athletes, it's really sad. Guys who never compete against D1 guys can't really determine they are D2 and D3 guys until they do, right? Hell, PG WWBA tournaments field as many (or more) mediocre to bad teams as they do good to great teams. This I can tell you first hand. Not their fault, they aren't exactly screening teams for quality when the registration payment comes in. My ire is not based on any particular outcome that has or has not impacted my son, we know where he is at on the spectrum and are blitzing the schools in that area. If he plays ball in college, he plays ball in college. We all know his chances of going pro are about as solid as Rynoattack's chances of landing a coveted guest appearance on his buddy Hannity's program. But the point I am making (and I have received several PMs of people who have been on this board a long while who said they agree with me but won't come out and say it in an open forum) is having tournaments where coaches can come to see many fish in the same pond is not enough...we have to have showcases, now we have virtual evaluation reports, etc...etc...

I fully expect that at some point we will have the ability to send a DNA sample from an amniocentesis to see if Billy is going to be a LHP with a wicked curveball or not

Showcases are meant for evaluation. It will identify and help the player to figure out what direction to take.  If you can't afford a showcase, find a scout in the area, attend a reliable college camp, for evaluation.

I think that what's happened isn't just the fault of those that receive the money, buy also those that hand over the money.  Parents have to take some responsibility. They also have to understand where their player belongs.  It takes work to figure that out. It should be a priority before you write a check to anyone.

So this is ironic. Prepsters son is a coach for a top 25 team, mine for a mid D1, Coach Mays son for a D2.  Do you think anyone of those coaches think that these tournies are unfair to them?  No, because they can identify who their players will be, because they took the time to prepare. Did they use data and info from PG? Probably. But they are not going to take someones word without seeing it for themselves. This should be the same for the player with help from his mom or dad, know where your player is within his grad class, state, etc. 

I always love it when people post they aren't the only ones who feel a certain way, they got pms from others, no one is saying that you don't make good points but that is so unnecessary.

Anyway, you can never satisfy everyone. Someone is always unhappy about something. It's either the weather, not being able to play at LP, parking, admission, concession prices ( did you ever see the prices at college concession stands or pro games), paying to see player info, diamondkast, the weather again, you name it.

So since you have a beef with all of this, what is your solution?

There are a myriad of reasons why a kid might enjoy playing WWBA at Lake Point besides just recruiting.  I mean there are hundreds of teams that play WWBA, right? And 300 D1 teams, right?  So the math doesn't add up.

For some the cost of travel ball is a drop in the bucket.  For others it is a sacrifice.  Our family turns our Travel Ball tournaments into mini vacations as well as Baseball journeys.  We visit historical sites along the way, find museums, beaches, fun things to do and also visit lots of college campuses.   We didn't really start traveling very far until this year though (15U).  There was no need to....

You can always offset the cost of Travel Ball by going to JUCO for free for 2 years (!).  Lots of ways to peel an onion.

Personally I love everything about Perfect Game.  Probably to an irrational level.  My kid will likely be ready to do a PG Showcase sometime next year (Sophomore year) and he's pretty psyched about it.  The kid just loves Baseball.  He thinks it'll be fun.... 

Ultimately you create your own road in life.  Lots of ways to get to your destination.  If you are determined to play Baseball at a high level, and you love the game, it can be a lot of fun going to a big tournament and seeing tons of talent and being challenged.

I really think there are a lot of people who apparently don't mind that what used to happen for close to nothing is now costing thousands for kids/families. Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the apathy I see as it relates to shelling out the cash for baseball. no...a lot surprised.

What used to happen is if you lived in Wisconsin your only chance of getting seen and playing in college was relying on your High School coach, the vast majority of them played head games and made you play Legion Ball on horrible fields and they loved controlling every aspect of everything and if you didn't kiss ass your chances were either zero or trying to walk on at a local JUCO. 

I prefer the new way.   

I deleted a post in this thread that was political in nature.  Keep that off of this site!

CoachB25 posted:

I deleted a post in this thread that was political in nature.  Keep that off of this site!

Okay, I won’t mention spaghetti again. I’m very sorry! 

Gary, it seems you are disgruntled and more than a little upset with PG.  So, stay the heck away from it.  I read your post, and I paraphrase, where you mentioned that PG and some others have some type of control over D-I institutions etc.  That simply isn't true.  I am a lowly HS coach and now a softball coach but I can still place a phone call to certain D-I, D-II and one NAIA school and get players looks.  If you are upset that Jerry is now making money, some of us remember when he started and he was putting out a lot of his money and taking risk trying to get the whole thing started.  Good for him that he is now successful.  One of the first things Jerry did was to put money into this site to help keep it afloat.  So, he didn't just become successful over night.  You are a consumer.  Don't pay for it if you don't want it.  If your son has talent, he will find a place to play. 

In similar context per family spending, when my daughter was second year 12U, she was asked to play for a 14U team.  They ended up playing 16U and 18U.  They played in 7 states and did not have a weekend off until after school started.  Then, they played a fall schedule where they hit the road again to four states.  At any point, we could have pulled the plug.  She was invited to so many showcases from that.  At one, they wanted to know if she was a junior in school and thought that her age was a typo.  She ended up still playing in the showcase with all of the juniors.  This went on for the next six years.  Today, when my wife got home from work and I got home from hitting lessons.  We talked about this very thing.  Our family is close.  Those times on the road made us close.  She had multiple offers and could have played in the B1G if she wanted to.  She opted instead to stay close to home and we could have saved all of that money since that school was recruiting her as an 8th grader.  We made choices and don't regret one thing. 

GaryMe posted:

I really think there are a lot of people who apparently don't mind that what used to happen for close to nothing is now costing thousands for kids/families. Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the apathy I see as it relates to shelling out the cash for baseball. no...a lot surprised.

...and there are a lot more people whose sons are getting more and better quality opportunities to play after high school than there once were.

GaryMe posted:

I really think there are a lot of people who apparently don't mind that what used to happen for close to nothing is now costing thousands for kids/families. Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the apathy I see as it relates to shelling out the cash for baseball. no...a lot surprised.

What is close to nothing?  Senior summer we spent 3500,  that was a LOT of money 15 years ago. The difference was that it was spent it at the right time, and wasnt because everyone else was doing it. And it was so son could play against very good competition, proving to those that were watching he belonged in their program. And we didn't feel the need to be there, to add xtra to recruiting, but rather had coaches that made the team travel together and preferred parents keep a distance. Do coaches do that these days? The team manager, and owner of Team, raised the rest of the funds needed. Each summer he took his teams to Omaha, where you played during the day and went to a game at night. It was awesome.  

Of course he had a 10 rating from PG. Wouldn't have even thought of spending that unless that came first in the ONE and only showcase son did.

Actually, I have repeatedly said, you don't have to break the bank to get recruited to play in college.  But you will if you keep putting yourself in front of the wrong people.

Do you know how many follks here have come for advice looking to successfully get their player an opportunity, and actually took that advice and didnt have to break the bank?

I am sorry, I resent the remarks that you have made when you know absolutely nothing about most of us here. If you have a problem with Perfect Game, that's ok, but dont start thinking you know about what others may or may not have done.

When I was in high school the only summer option was Legion. Players were at the mercy of word of mouth and how far their Legion team went in the playoffs. Several of my teammates and I were fortunate to play Legion ball with a high draft choice after he played three years of college ball. It expanded the word of mouth.

A player can still select this option. But how is it better than a player making a list of schools and charting out how he can get in front of them to impress? 

The costs of travel ball really have become crazy. Tournament fees have tripled. As far as I can tell, field rental, umpire fees, etc have only risen slightly. So it’s simply more profit in a lot of cases. Which is fine. EXCEPT - in a lot of cases, people continue to spend more because they are being convinced by coaches and companies that the only way to play college ball is with their help ie, tournaments, lessons,camps.   There is an increasing number of ex players that are not ready to give up baseball and are trying to make a full time income on teaching and coaching kids. Again this is not necessarily bad except that I think many many times, parents and kids are being mislead in order to maintain cash flow. In years past, coaches were primarily volunteers or part time and worked to help kids. Now there is plenty of help available for $40 / 30 minutes. Plus $1500 to 3k per season. Again as long as people are willing to pay I guess that’s ok as well, if the coaches,teams, etc are being honest. It is however hard to be objective and people make emotional decisions because it is for their kids.  They want to believe so it’s an easy sell.

i don’t think that most are intentionally trying to mislead people but I don’t think that they are being completely honest either. I have told many people that in the end, the people that I believe have helped my son the most,  are the ones that I have given very little or no money to 

GaryMe posted:

I really think there are a lot of people who apparently don't mind that what used to happen for close to nothing is now costing thousands for kids/families. Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the apathy I see as it relates to shelling out the cash for baseball. no...a lot surprised.

Sorry Gary - you're not correct.  It cost a lot of $$ to folks 5-10 years ago if they didn't care or were overcome by desperation or emotion.  PG fees weren't too different from now.  And they were all over the place then too.  And there were other choices as well.  One could run up a hefty bill if they were willing too.

You said on the previous page, "You likely haven't seen the "average" high school baseball recruiting experience that most recruits experience."

You are right in some ways.  Selling a 5-10, 85 mph RHP to D1 is no "average high school baseball recruiting experience!"  But thats what we did I guess with no PG showcase and a modestly priced elite travel team expense.  We used the network we had available to us (e.g. HS coach, travel coach, former youth coach who had moved onto a D1 staff, a former D1 pitching coach who lived in our neighborhood, etc... ) to get the word out that this kid was worth taking a look - and they did.  They did at HS games and at travel games.  But not at showcases where size and 90+ is valued at a premium.

When I couldn't really afford the price of a PG showcase for son #1 (not too different in price from now), I found some free ones (Area Codes, USA baseball) and then picked one PG and got a sponsorship from his youth baseball league.  I dunno, out of pocket - an airfare and a hundred bucks or so.  Is that what you meant by 'didn't pay?'  Seems somewhat creative (and thoughtful?) to me.

There are ways to do this, but they don't include shelling out $600-$700 bucks for an elite showcase when your son is a D2 player (as you say).  Unless you just want him to have the experience.  But in either case, it doesn't warrant screaming on a message board about the price or the monetization.

PGStaff and I had some arguments on here.  But it wasn't about money.  To me, you break out your wallet or your credit card, its on you.

My baseball career ended on a small town rec team in my mid-teens.  The world of youth travel baseball and college recruiting was a complete mystery to me initially.  Most of what I learned at first came from talking with other parents, but honestly that can be a source of as much misinformation as information.  I had many conversations with folks who mainly infected me with their own panic that their kid would "fall behind" without lots of private lessons, camps, etc. from age 6 onwards  Discovering this site was a biiiiiiig help--wish I had found it sooner.

I just got back tonight from this year's WWBA trip.  It was a lot of fun--great to spend time with my son and to see him play.  The tournament seems too big and too crazy sometimes, but it's good so many teams get the chance to participate.  I might change a few things if I could, but PG runs an impressive, efficient operation.  So let me be clear, I do not wish to bash PG.    

Those who choose to earn their living teaching others to play baseball and/or helping them with the recruiting process have a right to get paid for what they do.  And to be successful they have to market themselves and their services.  Nothing wrong with capitalism in action.  But it can create real challenges for parents.  I get emails all the time about camps, showcases, training programs... Most of those messages assure me that what they offer is crucial to getting my kid "discovered" by colleges or promise to improve his velo, etc.  We all want the best for our kids--it can be very hard to know how to spend one's time and money (and when not to).  As a parent, sometimes I feel like a proverbial pigeon being targeted by hustlers.  I do NOT mean I think PG is doing anything unethical--the point of marketing is to motivate people to buy.  The folks who want to sell me toothpaste also try hard to push the right psychological buttons.  PG and others are selling "the dream," and for those of us without much baseball experience or knowledge, it can be hard to know what opportunities make sense for our kids.  The information you need to be an informed consumer of PG's services (and those of others) is out there if you know where to look, but it's not as easy as I think some posts here suggest.  It is hard for newbie parents to navigate this process.  (Again, this site is a great resource.  I wish I had found it when my kid was about 12.)  I knew my kid was one of the best players in the tournaments/leagues he played in from an early age.  I did what I could to figure out where he stood when it came to trying to play in college, and it was PG events and data that gave me the most information.  Getting to that information wasn't free, but I also didn't need to send him to three or four $1,000 showcases to figure things out.  I do know (I hope) what kinds of colleges he should target now, and that is worth a heck of a lot.  Paying the costs of attending a week-long mega-tournament like the WWBA is (for my kid) mainly an investment in playing baseball and having fun--he's more likely to play D3 than for a school that will see him at Lake Point.  I understand that better now than I did the first time he went to a WWBA tournament--but that understanding matured in part (for him and for me) because he played there and I saw the range of competition.  Just based on the percentages, if you pay to go to a PG event because you assume it will definitely get your kid onto college coaches' boards, you are likely to be disappointed.  I admit I thought that way a little bit early on; but as I said, it was PG that showed me whether spending more at PG-type events would be a good recruiting "investment."

You don't have to take out a second mortgage to finance your son's baseball dreams, but there are a lot of folks out there eager to cash your checks so long as you will write them.  In a perfect world, parents and kids would get fewer messages encouraging them to dream unrealistically big; but the marketing pushes also are the reason I know what options are out there for showcases, camps, etc.  It's far from a perfect world and I do think youth sports has gotten too serious and too expensive, but it would be hard to "regulate" things in a way that would actually make them better overall. 

GaryMe posted:

I really think there are a lot of people who apparently don't mind that what used to happen for close to nothing is now costing thousands for kids/families. Frankly, I'm a little surprised at the apathy I see as it relates to shelling out the cash for baseball. no...a lot surprised.

I agree baseball recruiting is expensive.  I just spent a bunch of money to be at the PG WWBA, but most of the money went to American Airlines ($800), Westin hotel ($1600), various restaurants for the week ($800), Hertz ($250), Publix ($100-200).  I can tell you that PG did not get anything close to that even if you include the $5 parking and $10 gate fees.  And my son's coach didn't get close to these amounts either.  And we'll do it again twice more this summer/fall, and also add in a couple trips to Arizona.  So I agree there's a ton of money being spent on recruiting, but I don't think a whole lot of baseball people are getting rich.  Maybe PG is, but they invented the model, capitalized on the demand, and grew the industry - just like Ford or IBM did back in the day, or Google or Amazon these days.  They are entitled to whatever comes their way until competition erodes it or they slip up.  That's the way America works.

By the way, my son could go to any number of "inexpensive" camps, but guess what - American Airlines, Westin, Herz, etc still have their hands out for their pound of flesh.

Chico Escuela posted:

My baseball career ended on a small town rec team in my mid-teens.  The world of youth travel baseball and college recruiting was a complete mystery to me initially.  Most of what I learned at first came from talking with other parents, but honestly that can be a source of as much misinformation as information.  I had many conversations with folks who mainly infected me with their own panic that their kid would "fall behind" without lots of private lessons, camps, etc. from age 6 onwards  Discovering this site was a biiiiiiig help--wish I had found it sooner.

I just got back tonight from this year's WWBA trip.  It was a lot of fun--great to spend time with my son and to see him play.  The tournament seems too big and too crazy sometimes, but it's good so many teams get the chance to participate.  I might change a few things if I could, but PG runs an impressive, efficient operation.  So let me be clear, I do not wish to bash PG.    

Those who choose to earn their living teaching others to play baseball and/or helping them with the recruiting process have a right to get paid for what they do.  And to be successful they have to market themselves and their services.  Nothing wrong with capitalism in action.  But it can create real challenges for parents.  I get emails all the time about camps, showcases, training programs... Most of those messages assure me that what they offer is crucial to getting my kid "discovered" by colleges or promise to improve his velo, etc.  We all want the best for our kids--it can be very hard to know how to spend one's time and money (and when not to).  As a parent, sometimes I feel like a proverbial pigeon being targeted by hustlers.  I do NOT mean I think PG is doing anything unethical--the point of marketing is to motivate people to buy.  The folks who want to sell me toothpaste also try hard to push the right psychological buttons.  PG and others are selling "the dream," and for those of us without much baseball experience or knowledge, it can be hard to know what opportunities make sense for our kids.  The information you need to be an informed consumer of PG's services (and those of others) is out there if you know where to look, but it's not as easy as I think some posts here suggest.  It is hard for newbie parents to navigate this process.  (Again, this site is a great resource.  I wish I had found it when my kid was about 12.)  I knew my kid was one of the best players in the tournaments/leagues he played in from an early age.  I did what I could to figure out where he stood when it came to trying to play in college, and it was PG events and data that gave me the most information.  Getting to that information wasn't free, but I also didn't need to send him to three or four $1,000 showcases to figure things out.  I do know (I hope) what kinds of colleges he should target now, and that is worth a heck of a lot.  Paying the costs of attending a week-long mega-tournament like the WWBA is (for my kid) mainly an investment in playing baseball and having fun--he's more likely to play D3 than for a school that will see him at Lake Point.  I understand that better now than I did the first time he went to a WWBA tournament--but that understanding matured in part (for him and for me) because he played there and I saw the range of competition.  Just based on the percentages, if you pay to go to a PG event because you assume it will definitely get your kid onto college coaches' boards, you are likely to be disappointed.  I admit I thought that way a little bit early on; but as I said, it was PG that showed me whether spending more at PG-type events would be a good recruiting "investment."

You don't have to take out a second mortgage to finance your son's baseball dreams, but there are a lot of folks out there eager to cash your checks so long as you will write them.  In a perfect world, parents and kids would get fewer messages encouraging them to dream unrealistically big; but the marketing pushes also are the reason I know what options are out there for showcases, camps, etc.  It's far from a perfect world and I do think youth sports has gotten too serious and too expensive, but it would be hard to "regulate" things in a way that would actually make them better overall. 

This is an honest and well thought out post which, IMO, represents the experience of most people.  

I agree with the above. Very nice post.

Everyday, I get offers in the mail for a new credit card, they sound good, but I will not extend myself for a bonus after I spend the first, 100, 300 or double points. It's basically the same concept, everyone is out to get your business, baseball included. 

Be smart, ask questions. You have a great platform here for that.  Don't let someone tell you that we will get on your case if you come here for advice, be reasonable, be patient.

And it's FREE.

Just ask my friend backdorslider!

Hahaha. My goodness. Every July of every year brings out the serial PG complaints. Maybe go into the process expecting to be fleeced by everyone. Expect it to rain every day. Your car will breakdown. Expect every calamity to befall you. Maybe those convo's with the boy as you drive around will be a little more meaningful and if only 1/2 of those misfortunes happen you're ahead of the game. We absolutely loved the PG trips!!!!

I want to point out that most of the JUCOs in my area recruit my area.  If money is of concern, there you go.  Our JUCOs have quality teams that seem to have a lot of their players move on to D-I or D-II teams.  Two of the players I coach who made it to MLB went that route.  

RJM posted:

A lot of people spend too much money on sports too soon. Then they get upset with the venues when it doesn’t pan out. You can’t purchase talent. 

I’ll start with the disclaimer I played D1 ball. It gave me a head start on baseball knowledge. It gave my kids a head start genetically. I provided the instruction for my kids as their coach.

It wasn't until high school when it was obvious my kids had genuine talent that I started spending money. They both went to speed camp to become faster. They were already fast. My son had his swing changed after soph year of high school. He was already a good hitter. He had to have it beaten into his head with reps not to pull everything. There were times to drive the ball the other way. 

My kids played on travel teams before showcasing I coached (with other former dad college players) for minimal cost.** Their 17u (baseball) and 18u (softball) teams that traveled the East Coast were heavily subsidized. His scout league team was free/sponsored by a former MLBer.

When I see parents pouring out 5k per year starting at 10u I just shake my head.

** I met a dad who didn’t know baseball who found qualified dad coaches and put together a team for his son to play on. He was GM. He did all the recruiting, organization and paper work. All the coaches had to do was coach. 

RJM, you have mentioned in many of your posts that you played D1 baseball. Where did you play ?