Bannister (Arizona) has pitched a lot in the playoffs, some games with only 72 hours rest. He left Thursdays game with an apparent arm injury. Haven't read exact issue yet. Beckwith (Coastal Carolina) threw 140 pitches last night. I didn't watch much of the game because I went to a movie but averages out to 16/inning.
On the surface, both these pitchers appear to be overused but would like thoughts/comments. Is there a time when it is okay?
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The CWS is so special.
There is a question I've heard asked amongst college pitcher parents I've heard pondered many times. "If your son had a chance to significantly help his team win the CWS but be overused in the process would you object, or not?"
Most parents I've heard answer this question have said they likely would not. Some cite the Madison Baumganer MLB WS example.
I don't know what the right answer is? I've kind of leaned both ways on it. Maybe it depends on whether or not you think your son is a major prospect or not? Except when that situation nearly arose in a regional championship a few years ago I felt strongly that our mostly non-prospect son NOT do it. So I just don't know.
I agree with JBB....it is just one of those unique situations that it just depends on the coach, player and situation. If Beckwith had been asked to do this before the CWS then I think that could be a cause for concern. However, I don't think that is the case.
On the other side of the fence you have to realize these are college players not professional players making risk/reward decisions about their futures. That is the part that scares me a lot as young people tend to think their bodies are indestructible. You never see professional pitchers go to 140 pitches because the club has a significant financial investment in them. Colleges don't have that same financial investment concern, so it is incumbent on the player and to some extent his parents to make that judgement. Tough decision.
Pitch count isn't a magical threshold where if you go over you are going to be injured. It is a general rule of thumb. Some guys can be injured early in the game and thus, pitch count has nothing to do in that situation. Watch college softball. Those girls are not regulated by pitch count and you can often see the same girl pitch over and over again. The fact is the underhand throw is less stressful on the arm. Beckwith throws a decent amount of his pitches from the below-the-belt position at 68 mph. The arm angle and velocity (on many of his pitches) are both mitigating factors to his pitching longer than the average guy.
Coastal is obviously trying to win a championship here. I trust Beckwith will let them know if he can no longer pitch. I trust the Coastal coaches in managing the situation.
I am pretty sure that if he had been drafted and had an agent, things would have been different.
Most guys that pitch with that arm angle are not starters and there is a reason why. They just arent durable and most that drop down that low do so because of a prior issue, not sure if this the case. Will be interesting to see how he pitches next year but he was used as a starter last year end of season.
Is there ever a right time to overuse a pitcher? Maybe, in the heat of a championship. But for a guy with a professional future, IMO no.
IMO, they need to come up with a better plan than double elimination, just too much for the pitchers on the teams that fall into the losers bracket.
If you're wearing the uniform it's "give your all" time. If a kid is a prospect it's probably over the top. But who wants to look back and tell themselves "I could have done more to win."
When I was young my mother used to get on me, "When you're older you're going to wish you hadn't crashed into so many outfield walls. You're going to pay for it in middle age." I thought she was crazy. I made the catches. I couldn't imagine going less than all out every play. This was back before someone came up with the idea of padding outfield walls. I've never had physical problems relating to running into walls.
Reading books like "The Arm" and talking with former college & pro players, college coaches etc it is clear that there isn't enough specific information as to what causes arm injuries and how to prevent them.
If I had a kid who was a pitcher choosing between MiLB or D1, who seemed to have a legit chance to end up in MLB, who had a dream of pitching in MLB, I would strongly recommend they go pro and skip college. There are only so many bullets in an arm
This subject comes up in the D3 CWS every year with pitchers getting 48-72 hours rest (max) before throwing again. Most are not MLB prospects so it does not matter too much in the long term for them. If you are not a top 4 round high velocity prospect go out and do what you can to help your team win as this opportunity only comes around once in your lifetime. A few days of pitching on short rest is not likely going to hurt a pitcher as long as he has a history of taking care of himself as it is likely injuries are a result of a long term stress. You can not compare softball to baseball because softball mechanics do not put the stress on the shoulder and elbow like pitching does.
3and2Fastball posted:Reading books like "The Arm" and talking with former college & pro players, college coaches etc it is clear that there isn't enough specific information as to what causes arm injuries and how to prevent them.
If I had a kid who was a pitcher choosing between MiLB or D1, who seemed to have a legit chance to end up in MLB, who had a dream of pitching in MLB, I would strongly recommend they go pro and skip college. There are only so many bullets in an arm
Depends on where the prospect has been recuited. The top programs in the country have better instruction than the lower minor leagues in some organizations and that is where most late drafted HS pitchers will spend time. The top HS pitchers drafted are treated differently.
JMO
BOF posted:This subject comes up in the D3 CWS every year with pitchers getting 48-72 hours rest (max) before throwing again. Most are not MLB prospects so it does not matter too much in the long term for them. If you are not a top 4 round high velocity prospect go out and do what you can to help your team win as this opportunity only comes around once in your lifetime. A few days of pitching on short rest is not likely going to hurt a pitcher as long as he has a history of taking care of himself as it is likely injuries are a result of a long term stress. You can not compare softball to baseball because softball mechanics do not put the stress on the shoulder and elbow like pitching does.
BOF - my softball comments were specifically aimed at the starting pitcher last night from Coastal (Beckwith) who was mentioned in the opening of this thread. Half of Beckwith's throws are submariner throws at 68 mph. My argument and comparison with softball is that at least for some of his throws, his arm angle and velocity mitigate stress on his arm and thus, in this peculiar case, there needs to be more analysis than just counting the number of his pitches. I agree with your other points.
RedFish, you know my son's story. I am 50/50 on this one. The protective pitcher's dad says heck no in any circumstance. He has just been through so much I don't want him pushing the envelope without a big payday behind it. On the other hand, the competitor in me says when you have the ball, I kinda feel like what RJM described. So I'm torn. I think it's a complex, case by case situation. With all that being said, I think I would recommend to err on the side of caution. Unfortunately, I don't think I'm gonna get that decision any longer. I can only hope my son makes the best decision for his long term health.
YG, and you know my son's story as well. This just hits home with me and disturbs me to some extent but I can see my son wanting to continue to pitch and help his team. I would hope when he gets a future chance that he would be at least cognizant of his health in the situation.
First off - I agree with the I'd be super cautious if it were my kid, myself, etc. Mine threw well and pain free for the first time in about a year last night. He's not close to being "back" fully mentally or physically yet, but it sure helps to have some success. When I was younger and went skiing, it wouldn't bother me to go down that dangerous trail - if I got hurt, so what? No guts, no glory. As I got older, I looked at that trail and went through the process of, well if I get hurt, I'm out of work for X weeks/months, damn it hurts like hell to get hurt and the rehab sucks, so let's take that easier slope ;-)
I would venture to guess that "most" of the common folk cannot really understand the "mind" or "psyche" that an athlete has regarding "doing what it takes" to win. Reading books like The Arm give a small/brief glimpse into the processing they 'endure' when it comes to their body. They know it's not "good", but dang when you're that close to a goal you set for yourself and/or your team, then throw caution to the wind and go for it.
Compared to the D3 or D2 WS - the D1 WS has a luxurious schedule - perhaps built up over the years knowing how pitchers are going to be used. What would you prefer to see? If they shrunk that schedule to follow D2/D3, then either you'd get a really overused pitcher or you may see some really ugly baseball because teams are forced to go with their lesser pitchers. Much like the MLB WS - where you'll see #1 go game 1, 4, & 7...
Yes Fish, I know what Parker has gone through. My hope is that he fully recovers and is competing next spring!!
I hope those pitchers don't suffer an injury. If they do someone out there will blame us.
All this stuff just makes one thing much more obvious. The number one reason for TJ surgery is the desire to WIN.
Some might say it is because the CWS is so important, and no doubt, it really is. But, we just had a 13u tournament that nearly turned into a riot. One team was leading going into the last inning. There were 3 minutes left on the game clock when the last out of the 6 th inning was made. So the game continued into the 7th inning. In the 7th inning the team that was leading gave up 10 runs and lost the game. Really not much more to it, just a 13u tournament game, not all that important next week let alone years from now.
Well the team that lost went crazy starting with the coach. Our director thought he was going to have to fight his way away from the field. Loud vulgar yelling by coaches, and parents claiming they were screwed because the game should have ended by time limit. They were 100% wrong as was later proven. But it took security to get them to leave.
Point is, we might say certain events are much more important than others, but to many the most important event in the world is the one they are playing in. Winning a game can get so important that it can cause people to become complete fools.
The only way to keep pitchers and coaches from over doing things is to have rules. When you have rules it creates an even playing field for everyone. It won't stop injuries from happening, but it will eliminate the "gross" abuse that takes place way too often. BTW, I understand that every pitcher is different. Some are fatigued after 30 pitches and others can go over 100 pitches. So I would give those coaches involved in higher pitch counts at the CWS respect that they know what they are doing. On the other hand, we all know what the desire to win a game or a championship can do to people and it happens at every age level. Rules are needed in order to control things.
Some have mentioned the submariner and low velocity pitches are less dangerous. That is true, actually not sure pitch counts mean much at all to knuckleball pitchers. But high velocity and high pitch counts or lack of recovery time are like playing with fire. Same goes for poor mechanics, lack of conditioning, stress, and pitching with other minor injuries. And there are even more things that add risk. In fact, anytime a pitcher gets on the mound he is at risk. Can't eliminate all the risk, but rules can eliminate much of the stupidity that takes place in amateur baseball. Then once in professional baseball it's a different game when they have an investment in their pitchers. You seldom see arm risk in the minor leagues. Seldom see it in the Big Leagues either unless a championship is on the line.
I just had the same conversation, in regard to Beckwith and his pitch count (140), with a highly respected SEC coach last weekend.
He spoke about his ability to recover from prior outings, the arm slot (submariner) , low fatigue factor and the fact this is the biggest stage he will likely ever play on. Pitch counts mean nothing in this situation to Beckwith or his team.
Isn't Beckwith a senior? He wasn't drafted. In that scenario I would pitch all day to win the CWS. Yes I understand there can be long term consequences. I tore my rotor playing baseball at forty-two proving had as much of a gun as some twenty somethings. I still managed to recover enough to pitch years of BP for my son's teams. It wasn't until my mid 50s I had trouble throwing across the infield.
RJM posted:Isn't Beckwith a senior? He wasn't drafted. In that scenario I would pitch all day to win the CWS. Yes I understand there can be long term consequences. I tore my rotor playing baseball at forty-two proving had as much of a gun as some twenty somethings. I still managed to recover enough to pitch years of BP for my son's teams. It wasn't until my mid 50s I had trouble throwing across the infield.
I think he just finished junior year.
