Pitch Types -- How many is too many?

Wow, my 2015 RHP only has 3 and he will be playing D1 ACC ball next year. 4 seam and curve. I would have to say the 3rd being the changeup is his least favorite and the least mastered of the pitches. College PC has mentioned him employing a slider for the level of hitters he'll face there but he doesnt throw it now.

I had a very similar conversation with my other son, righthook, after catching his bullpen yesterday.  He is still developing/mastering a couple of his pitches.  He asked about changing grips is something is not working.  Told him not every pitch is going to be "on" on any given day and that there are a lot of factors.  My advice to him was, even if a pitch is not working well, he still needs to show it to a hitter to let the hitter know he is not just counting on one pitch.  See what's working in the bullpen pre-game and go to battle with those pitches, but show the other.

Like you said, I can see both sides of the argument, but why not still throw the other pitches and keep them in the arsenal for later innings, or the next time you face a particular team, say play-off time.  I do understand the need to master the top three, but do not necessarily agree with dumping the others all together.

My 2015 throws basically 4.  2 FB's, CB and CU. CB is good so he has been told not to throw a slider at this point in his career.

Well, because I can is not an answer and I am sure if you asked him a question about his behavior and that was his answer you would be disappointed with that response.  So I will pose the question again....

Why does he need that many pitches?

I think it's great your son can throw that many different pitches. How is his command of each pitch? What is his strike percentage per inning. What is his strike out to base on balls ratio. How many first pitch strikes per game? What is the fastball to breaking ball ratio. Wishing you the best for the spring season.

Master 3 rather than be good with 4 or 5. The change up seems to be the hardest for high school kids as it requires more of a feel and plus when they get to be 12 or 13 they all start throwing curveballs as their off speed instead of a change at all. I wish that would "change". The circle change is a phenomenal pitch if executed properly.

Shoveit4Ks:  Based on past entries, I'm pretty certain yours throws harder than mine.  It's been my experience the harder your throw, the less pitches you'll need.  Mine usually sits 84-86, with a max FB at 88 (so far).  In a game against lesser hitting teams, he'll "mow the yard" with FBs, but when he faces better teams (usually in travel) he likes to have a good variety.

LHdad:  I'm inclined to agree with keeping them, but what I don't want (and I'm sure the guest PC was trying to get at) is for the boy to have so many options in his head that he forgets to just go get 'em with his best stuff.  That in my opinion is the key.

RFF:  My son's cutter/slider is definitely not thrown/released as a slider.  He just has excellent "slider movement" on a cutter (not a cut-fastball).  I don't allow him to throw a slider either.

Thanks for the reply 19coach.  I agree that mastering 3 is a must.  He has a SOLID grasp of both 2 and 4 seam FBs, his cutter/slider is excellent and his changeup is also a plus pitch (these are not just my opinions...other impartial scouts and recruiters agree).  His curve is easily his weakest offering (not enough velo for upper levels), but he continues to improve it.

I totally agree that the changeup is the most under-appreciated pitch in HS baseball.  My son simply throws a different version, which was taught to him by a former MLB LHP, and it's extremely effective.

While many different pitches can be effective in HS, once you move on to college, or even high level travel ball, if the pitches aren't plus pitches, they will get hammered.  It only takes one hung curve ball or change up to ruin your day.  Your son may be pretty good with all those pitches, but to be exceptional and get hitters out at a high level, he should focus on his best 3.  Kind of like being a jack of all trades, but a master of none.

Make sure that he maximizes movement, change of speed,deception and command with all 3 pitches.  It is not as easy as it seems.  Trying to do that with 6 different pitches is nearly impossible to the degree where you want to be against top notch competition.

Honestly, I've seen a lot of kids come to me claiming to throw a cutter. They think they throw one and when asked to describe how they throw it, they describe a cutter to a T. Then when you get a good high speed video of them, what you see is, indeed, a slider. If it has "slider movement" that's usually a sign that he's getting some supination on it and has slowly - perhaps even subconsciously - turned the pitch into a slider as he learns if he cheats on the cutter a little and gets around it, it gets better movement. Now, I can't say what your son is doing, just a common experience of mine. I'm also not going to be one of those pitching coaches that tells you throwing a slider is bad. I see no evidence to suggest the slider is at all problematic. So many guys though have heard all their life that it's a bad pitch. To the point that it's avoided like the plague. However, the recent popularity of the cutter has been seen as a way to get the same affect with out throwing a slider. There are a small handful of pitchers I've ever seen that can throw a cutter with the kind of movement that is associated with a slider. Most start with a cutter that eventually evolves into a slider.

Roothog66:  I hear ya, but believe me.  My son has tried to throw a slider....and it stinks!  He really has a lot of natural pronation on his release (which is probably where all the movement comes from) and when he attempts the slider, it's a total train wreck.  His cutter runs about 74 and either cuts in flat to righties hard or (when it's on) has downward slider action.  He also nibbles on the backdoor with it.

bballman:  His three best are what he predominantly throws at the upper levels.

From my son's college coach. "Unless you can throw it for a strike in any count in any situation it is not a pitch". 

That is why at the higher levels there is emphasis on fewer pitches with better command and consistent arm slot and action. What you can get away with in HS, you won't be able to in college, and same applies for next step up to pros. 

Mine has 5 as a freshman in college @ seam and 4 seam FB, CB, slider and is developing a CU. Right now both his FBs and his slider are his best pitches. Per college pitching coach, CB is still a little loopy at times. He used it more than slider in HS because it had big break but college coach told him college hiters would hit that . CU is coming along nicely per son. hardly threw it in HS because he didn't need to as a rule so never really worked on it. Coach told him his out pitches in college would be CU and slider.

I guess i see the 2 BB as same pitch with different movement based off where you hold on seams. Maybe I am nuts.

BOF:  Message received, but I would add one more thing:  If you can't throw it twice in a row without it getting deposited in the seats, it's not a pitch.  That's why I call my son's CB a "show me".  He'll get you with it once, but if he throws it back-to-back somebody is going to be picking it up on the JV field.

chefmike:  I'm sure he'll pair them down as time goes by, just not yet.

My 2015 RHP (2015 D1 commit) throws 2-seam, 4-seam, curve and change.  He was taught a cutter by a former MLB World Series starter....he can still throw it, but I don't think he's used it in a couple years.  His command of his FB and curve are very good....very rarely even used the change. He played top level 17U last summer...and FINALLY discovered that a well-placed mid/upper 80's fastball got more strikes and outs than his curveball.  The day the coach that ultimately offered him came to see him for the last time.....he struck out 3 kids on 11 pitches....all FB's....coach just smiled and walked away....lol

If he can get guys out at the upper levels with his 3 best pitches, he should be able to get everyone out at the mid to lower levels with those 3 pitches as well.  Why not start focusing on those pitches now?  The more he throws the others, the more he takes away from mastering his best pitches.

You asked the question about how many pitches a pitcher should throw.  So far, everyone has said focus on the best 3 and master them.  Sounds like you already had your mind made up that he was going to throw all of them anyway, regardless of the answers you got here?

Nah, not at all.  I just thought it would be a great discussion.  Like I said, his bread-and-butter pitches are the 2-4 seam FBs, the cutter and the change.  He has great feel for all of them and locates all three well.  He continues to work on the curveball because....well, how many successful lefties do you know without a good one?  The cut-FB is something new we started playing with a few weeks ago.  We just thought it would be a good option when facing lefties on days his cutter wasn't on.

I'm of the opinion that GHHS Jr. is still at a level where he can try to incorporate a number of pitches. As he moves into better competition, he'll slowly learn which pitches are most effective. That's difficult to do in high school many times. He may find that the changeup that worked so well in high school can't get college players out, but the cutter he was working on is anice replacement. There is a point where he'll need to trim the menu in order to be effective, I'm just not convinced it's now. For the time being, he can rely on an upper-eighties fastball to get out of jams while he experiments.

What I "think" will happen is it will be FB (both of them), slider and CU. Truthfuly i think it depends on how his CU develops. Not sure if that is 3 or 4 pitches (2 seam and 4 seam as one or 2 pitches)

Roothog66:  Yep, I agree.  In all honesty, he'll probably play league 3 games this year against the league rival and 2 of those games will pit him against an EXTREMELY good 2016 RHP (who, barring injury, will probably be drafted in the first 2 rounds).  He's been a Varsity starter since freshman year, so that team knows him well.  In all their contests, neither team has ever put up more than 2 runs when both pitchers are on the bump.  Having another pitch for that game could come in very handy.

ChefMike:  He's been told by some to scrap the curve and go with those three exact pitches.  I just think it's too soon to close the door.  When his college coach tells him he's done throwing a certain pitch, then he's done.

FYI for all:  Yes, he's already given his verbal (D1 in WCC).  He gave it last summer.  I would have preferred the Big West or PAC-10 (so I could see more games), but he and the pitching coach at his selected school clicked immediately and the choice was his.

I would rather see a kid master three pitches than have the ability to throw four or five. If the kid is good in high school chances are he's mostly throwing two pitches; his best fastball and his best off speed pitch. 

I am of the opinion, that matches many that have already replied.  Very few pitchers beyond HS have that many "true" pitches that are all equally effective.  Most of the times two FB's along with two off speed pitches is enough.  In my opinion you could work on those pitches to master them to where they are all equally effective, which is a tough task.  Roothog has a good point, that for now it likely is not as important, however I will add that right now may be the time to spend the reps to master the two non-FB off speed pitches.  It would be very rare to have someone that can equally throw that many "plus" pitches.  LHP topping out in the upper 80's with two VERY effective plus off speed pitches can pitch a while, if they can throw them all in any count, with the same confidence.

Good and accurate.

Most ML guys only have 3 good pitches (there are exceptions) so why does a HS player need more?  He doesnt! All that is needed is a FB, breaking ball and an off speed pitch and it varies for different pitchers.  

My guy had a really nasty 2 seam sinker  that he could use in place of an off speed or breaking pitch. His 4 seam velo really didnt develop into a faster/harder one until he got a bit older. He went to college with a slurve and left with a true slider. He got picked up from tipping his CU (different  arm slot), and it took a long time to correct.

A lot has to do with the pitcher (righty/lefty) and usually someone else decides which is his better pitches to rely on. Lefties definetly need a decent CB. Most HS pitchers drafted in top rounds dont even have that many offerings, but what they have are plus pitches with projection to throw one or two more later on (as a starter).

I agree with bballman you asked how many a pitcher should throw, the consensus is 3 (4 for the top guys in HS), so why did you ask?

FWIW, the pitcher will not get very far ahead unless he has a 4 seam with decent velo, that should always be the primary pitch for any pitcher.

When you are in milb, in the beginning of season they ask what pitch you want to work on and thats what you do, sometimes you just have to throw that one pitch in a game.

Your pitcher may have 5 pitches and they may get people out in HS but on the college level or higher it wont work. His primary focus on development IMO should be the 4 seam FB, and all the pitches must come from the same arm slot to be successful. 

Remember its not quantity but quality that gets you the job!

chefmike,

A pitcher does not need a curve ball and a slider.  He needs to decide which might suite him better. The slider is the college pitch and sometimes the guys throw it more than they need to. it really isn't the best of pitches.

As far as the cutter, I am with roothog, most really cant throw a true one.  

Thanks to all for your replies.  A lot of great points, not just for my pitcher, but for all pitchers.  For GHHS jr's part, he will continue to work on his curve while honing his FB/cutter/change as staples. The big focus this year will be effectively throwing his FB "up in the zone" when needed.

I can only add what was told to me by a Cubs scout. " I don't scout curve ball pitchers, what works at high school get hammered in college. What works in college gets hammered in rookie ball. I can teach a monkey to throw a curve." 

Unless a high school pitcher can throw a curve like Zito, he needs to be working on the location and the change-up.

My 2014 RHP son got noticed and a scholarship mainly due to his plus change-up.