Coaches,

My 2 cents--

If you've got someone who is both a pitcher and catcher, eliminate between-inning throwdowns.

Guaranteed, they won't like it.  Don't give in.  Be a mule.

This limitation supplements other good limitations. It doesn't replace them.

I'm not endorsing the dual-role.  Just being realistic that some programs do it.  

 

 

 

Original Post

I have not read the "other good information" but you are talking 7 throws.  I've coached a lot of players who both pitched and were catchers.  I didn't notice those throws causing any problems.  Of course if the catcher is nonchalant and just chucking one down, then maybe.  

CoachB25 posted:

  I've coached a lot of players who both pitched and were catchers.  I didn't notice those throws causing any problems.  .  

The problem I'm talking about it sore arms.  Pain.  Not injury.

Sore arms usually aren't communicated to the coach.

But they can make your team less competitive.

game7 posted:

Coaches,

My 2 cents--

If you've got someone who is both a pitcher and catcher, eliminate between-inning throwdowns.

Guaranteed, they won't like it.  Don't give in.  Be a mule.

This limitation supplements other good limitations. It doesn't replace them.

I'm not endorsing the dual-role.  Just being realistic that some programs do it.  

 

 

 

i can't speak for everyone but my kid was changing every single week!  The arm strength and accuracy he had at practice on Wednesday may be very different than Saturday's game.  He needs that one throw down to judge where he is at that day....Center Fielders fielding throw downs is not ideal.

3and2Fastball posted:

My 2 cents:  if you have a player who is both a pitcher & catcher, you should retire from coaching.

Really wrong.  If you are in HS you will be more attractive to a college if you can do both (and also the more positions you can play the better).  My own son was drafted as a pitcher after his junior year in college, didn't sign and returned for his senior year where he was all conference catcher.  He played 4 years after college pitching one year and catching the other three.  You and the coach just have to be really careful to not over work your arm, but it can be done and is done more than you might think.

3and2Fastball posted:

My 2 cents:  if you have a player who is both a pitcher & catcher, you should retire from coaching.

That might be true in my case but I've done it a few times.  Of course you have to have common sense.  Catchers play the most abused position on that field.  They catch bullpens, get fewer reps in BP because they are always in the bullpen, get in their defensive work and then, if they are a pitcher, have to do that work as well.  It isn't easy to do right.  I can only speak for myself.   I rotate other players through the bullpen to catch.  I had a rotation of some 13 to 14 names and those players took their turns.  I purchased three gloves and had spare gear.  Heck, I even let them sit on buckets.   That cut down on some throws.  My catcher/pitcher knew that they were going to DH the day after they pitched.  This required that I develop a #2 catcher who had to be varsity ready for a couple of games a week toward the end of the season when rain-out games stacked up.  For defensive reps, we have a very concise routine with limited throws and that, most often, was more for the backup but did allow the top catcher to get in some work.  Finally, while the HS season is compact, it physically will wear out that catcher.  I have a photo up in my classroom that a catcher's dad took and had made.  It is me catching a live arm session of BP on the field.  IOWs, a coach can be creative to save that catcher some wear and tear.  

Then again, you are probably right about me needing to retire.  In fact, I'll go ahead and do that this year.  

I could be wrong, but I believe 3and2 is trying to say is most HS players do not put in the work to support being a pitcher and a catcher.  Keep in mind, many do not understand that throwing is a "whole body" approach both in the act of throwing and strength/conditioning.  

How many HS players spend enough time conditioning their whole body to throw let alone know how to throw properly?  Maybe limiting the amount of throwing a HS player is doing is a prudent and protective action????

 

 

3and2Fastball posted:

My 2 cents:  if you have a player who is both a pitcher & catcher, you should retire from coaching.

That's probably what Mike Martin was thinking when he decided to retire this year after the absurdity of having Buster Posey catch and pitch when he was at Florida State.

can-o-corn posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

My 2 cents:  if you have a player who is both a pitcher & catcher, you should retire from coaching.

Really wrong.  If you are in HS you will be more attractive to a college if you can do both (and also the more positions you can play the better).  My own son was drafted as a pitcher after his junior year in college, didn't sign and returned for his senior year where he was all conference catcher.  He played 4 years after college pitching one year and catching the other three.  You and the coach just have to be really careful to not over work your arm, but it can be done and is done more than you might think.

Still don't agree with that even if it worked for your kid. Pitching and catching is just a bad combination for the arm. If you want to play a second position s a P it is better to play OF or 1B. Asmii doesn't recommend pitching and catching either.

Of course there are arms who survive this but that doesn't make it a good idea.

Scott Munroe posted:

 many do not understand that throwing is a "whole body" approach both in the act of throwing and strength/conditioning.  

Conditioning is important.  But catchers' throwdowns are unique.  They're compact and violent. Nearly 100% arm.  Basically the opposite of a whole body approach.

Regarding 3and2, I just retired 

It is a tough balance for most HS's.  A coach is certainly responsible for protecting the health of his players.  A coach is also responsible for putting his players in the best position to win.  P, SS and C are the most important positions, requiring (in most cases) the best/strongest arms.  SS and C are the most difficult to balance as P's - especially C as others have noted.  The average HS program has a limited surplus of guys with strong arms who are able to man any of those three positions effectively.  The scenario that puts the team in the best position to win quite often includes a properly managed solution that allows those players to be 2-way.  Yes, it is also the responsibility of the coach to develop enough talent behind these guys that can step into those positions and negate that scenario but often, the "potential talent" and depth pool just isn't there.  Subsequently, going down the depth chart would have significant impact on putting the team in the best position to win.  Large programs with depth of talent and arms have more viable options.

Proper management and as much development of others as possible is key.  Or, retire, I guess .  As others have said, this balancing act happens far more than most realize.  Not easy.  No perfect solutions.  No matter which way you go, you will be criticized.

Tying this back to the OP...  we used a similar approach, whether it was protecting a C who may be a 2-way or just general preservation of a C arm (i.e.- during a tourney or a cluster of games due to schedule changes).  I would have my C make a strong throw down the first inning always.  This would often set the tone for opponents deciding not to run much.  Then, go easy the next few innings and go strong again somewhere in the middle if he hasn't made any game throw-downs.  Keeps him sharp, preserves the arm, and keeps opponents honest.  It's not that it's just seven throw downs.  It's cumulative, particularly when talking about multiple games in a short period of time.  Warm-ups, bullpen throws, game throws, throws back to P, etc.  BTW, we also had other methods to reduce some of these other throws for the C as well.

PS - there is certainly merit to Dominik's statement as well.  The ideal pitching motion and the throw of the catcher are typically quite different.  This also has to be factored in.  A whole 'nother conversation.

Also, I should add...  over the years, the two C's who continued to balance P/C duties under my watch in HS went on to play in college, one as a P, one as a C.  Both have healthy arms to this day.  Ability to hit a well placed college CB is where I failed them 

game7 posted:
Scott Munroe posted:

 many do not understand that throwing is a "whole body" approach both in the act of throwing and strength/conditioning.  

Conditioning is important.  But catchers' throwdowns are unique.  They're compact and violent. Nearly 100% arm.  Basically the opposite of a whole body approach.

Game7...interesting thought.

So this brings up a good question. Pitcher's who are trained to use the whole body approach to pitching are the ones who are freqently getting TJ. However, as you sugguested, catchers are "basically the opposite of a whole body approach" when throwing are not as frequent TJ canidates. Why?

  Here are some of the best in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsuKa_jpZ2s

I am not an experienced catcher so my knowlege is limited on how catchers throw.... but I have seen catchers train at FBR and they use many of the same throwing protocols pitchers do. Are there any catchers on here that can wiegh in?

 

Scott Munroe posted:
game7 posted:
Scott Munroe posted:

 many do not understand that throwing is a "whole body" approach both in the act of throwing and strength/conditioning.  

Conditioning is important.  But catchers' throwdowns are unique.  They're compact and violent. Nearly 100% arm.  Basically the opposite of a whole body approach.

Game7...interesting thought.

So this brings up a good question. Pitcher's who are trained to use the whole body approach to pitching are the ones who are freqently getting TJ. However, as you sugguested, catchers are "basically the opposite of a whole body approach" when throwing are not as frequent TJ canidates.  Here are some of the best in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsuKa_jpZ2s

I am not an experienced catcher so my knowlege is limited on how catchers throw.... but I have seen catchers train at FBR and they use many of the same throwing protocols pitchers do. Are there any catchers on here that can wiegh in?

 

I don't agree with the assessment that a C uses all arm.  They, too, use most of the body.  Shorter take-back/circle, quicker transfer yes, but still a whole body throw.  I think the biggest correlation to TJ is the fact that P's have an exponentially higher frequency of max or near-max effort throws .

cabbagedad posted:
Scott Munroe posted:
game7 posted:
Scott Munroe posted:

 many do not understand that throwing is a "whole body" approach both in the act of throwing and strength/conditioning.  

Conditioning is important.  But catchers' throwdowns are unique.  They're compact and violent. Nearly 100% arm.  Basically the opposite of a whole body approach.

Game7...interesting thought.

So this brings up a good question. Pitcher's who are trained to use the whole body approach to pitching are the ones who are freqently getting TJ. However, as you sugguested, catchers are "basically the opposite of a whole body approach" when throwing are not as frequent TJ canidates.  Here are some of the best in the game:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsuKa_jpZ2s

I am not an experienced catcher so my knowlege is limited on how catchers throw.... but I have seen catchers train at FBR and they use many of the same throwing protocols pitchers do. Are there any catchers on here that can wiegh in?

 

I don't agree with the assessment that a C uses all arm.  They, too, use most of the body.  Shorter take-back/circle, quicker transfer yes, but still a whole body throw.  I think the biggest correlation to TJ is the fact that P's have an exponentially higher frequency of max or near-max effort throws .

What I do know is that catchers who decided to try their hand at pitching at FBR threw gas....no change in arm motion needed!  In my opinion, catchers are like pitchers who quick pitch.  All the same throwing priciples apply just a quicker more compact arm action.  

game7 posted:
 

 

I don't agree with the assessment that a C uses all arm.  They, too, use most of the body. 

MLB catchers average 82 mph on steal attempts.

Why so slow?

https://www.mlb.com/news/statc...-strength-c268064274

Look at the first three video clips of the link you provided.  Clearly, with each, there is significant weight shift, leg drive and core rotation providing much of what is behind the throws.  Of course there is some sacrifice of velo when emphasis is put on quick transfer and release.  Pitching, particularly from the set, is the opposite in terms of having time to maximize every movement of the body in order to fully maximize velo, plus it is downhill.  But the basic fundamentals and involvement of lower half and core are still very much in play for proper catcher throw downs.  Shorter circle/take back, slightly lesser stride, quicker release and level ground all factor into the difference between an MLB P throwing 90+ and a C throwing low/mid 80's.  

IEBSBL posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

My 2 cents:  if you have a player who is both a pitcher & catcher, you should retire from coaching.

That's probably what Mike Martin was thinking when he decided to retire this year after the absurdity of having Buster Posey catch and pitch when he was at Florida State.

Seemed to workout alright for him

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