I know the team is from Texas and they have year round weather to throw, but what do you think of a college pitcher, in the first game of the season throwing 131 pitches?
Box Score:
6 IP, 3Hits, 2 Runs, 2 Earned, 1 BB, 4 ks, 2 WP, 3 HBP, 23 BF
When he left the game, team was up 4-2.
Team is a top 25 team (Coaches Poll).
Replies sorted oldest to newest
I know the team is from Texas and they have year round weather to throw, but what do you think of a college pitcher, in the first game of the season throwing 131 pitches?
Box Score:
6 IP, 3Hits, 2 Runs, 2 Earned, 1 BB, 4 ks, 2 WP, 3 HBP, 23 BF
When he left the game, team was up 4-2.
Team is a top 25 team (Coaches Poll).
Don't want to go off half cocked... And I tend to think pitch counts are sometimes over evaluated... but hard to believe a pitcher could possibly be ready for that sort of outing at this point of a season... It's a heavy pitch count for any point in a season. What's the team... HS, college?
Updates post... It was a college pitcher.
Sounds like he might have Overuse issues down the road and maybe a TJ surgery in his future, broad stroke statement but why chance it coach.
22 pitches per inning over 6 innings! Shocking that he only gave up 2 runs.
Interesting
as parent of future college pitcher how do I go about checking out the colleges interested in son? Want to know if they have done something like this w their pitchers. Will stats/numbers be on their websites?
Interesting
as parent of future college pitcher how do I go about checking out the colleges interested in son? Want to know if they have done something like this w their pitchers. Will stats/numbers be on their websites?
Yes, they should be. I would imagine the OP got this from looking at a box score on a web site. When you go to the schedule, they will have results, and usually a box score. Take a peak there. I did this when a school would contact my son.
Interesting
as parent of future college pitcher how do I go about checking out the colleges interested in son? Want to know if they have done something like this w their pitchers. Will stats/numbers be on their websites?
A lot of useful info at this site, including a comprehensive listing of excessive pitch counts in college baseball by game.
131 pitches is a lot.... this early it could be considered very excessive use. Just taking the number of pitches and dividing into innings, typically is not a very good indicator. In fact, I don't really like total pitch counts as the deciding factor. High pitch count innings, followed by a low pitch count inning (opposing pitcher), is where problems start. You could have an inning where a team does not score much, however you may have a walk, followed by several batters that foul off a bunch, then a hit, and a very high pitch inning. Then you come off the field, and the opposing pitcher gets 3 outs in 9 pitches...back out you go right after a 30+ pitch inning...that is where you need a coach that is both educated, and not self-serving.
Anyway...can't say I am surprised, but I would be disappointed if that was my son.
Don't know all the facts, but 131 pitches in 6IP, seems a bit excessive this early in a long season.
I saw a JC pitcher last week throw 110 pitches in 7 in the opener. I thought that was a little high for his first start. He is committed to a DI next year as well, if I'm the DI coach, I set some limits erly on.
22 pitches per inning over 6 innings! Shocking that he only gave up 2 runs.
Given the walks and hbp's I'm guessing he went high in the count to a lot of hitters. It was probably a Maalox moment game for the coach.
Hypothetically, what if an upperclassmen with good medical coverage and no prospects for the "next level" is willing and eager to throw 150+ pitches in a game....what's the matter with that?
For the first game of the season - I would say nuts!
Realistically, I am looking at every pitcher and depending on each one for all 40+ games. Not one and done.
If the last game of the season, game doesn't matter, last game of eligibility and the kid wants to "prove a point" and has no future, maybe.
I'm glad pitch counts are done and coaches (at my son's school) implements them.
There is no difference. It is still unethical to cause potential injury.
Re-stated:
An ethical question: Hypothetically, in mid-season, what if an upperclassmen with good medical coverage and no prospects for the "next level" is willing and eager to throw 150+ pitches in a game....is there anything ethically wrong with that?
Re-stated:
An ethical question: Hypothetically, in mid-season, what if an upperclassmen with good medical coverage and no prospects for the "next level" is willing and eager to throw 150+ pitches in a game....is there anything ethically wrong with that?
Yes, I would think so.
Also, if a coach has to use a pitcher that much because he has no one in the bullpen, or can't trush another pitcher to get outs, that's even worse. Why would a guy need to throw that many pitches? I have seen all the time on here parents concerned with lots of pitchers on rosters, and worried about where innings will come from. Why would a coach need to throw a kid that much?
Hypothetically, what if an upperclassmen with good medical coverage and no prospects for the "next level" is willing and eager to throw 150+ pitches in a game....what's the matter with that?
Just because he won't be pitching after college doesn't mean he doesn't need the use of his arm for the rest of his life. If a kid is going to give it up for the team make it the post season, not opening day.
Hypothetically, what if an upperclassmen with good medical coverage and no prospects for the "next level" is willing and eager to throw 150+ pitches in a game....what's the matter with that?
We had this discussion last may at the end of the D3 world series.
http://community.hsbaseballweb...snot-in-the-diii-cws
It was an interesting discussion. We also discussed it over on D3boards.
22 pitches per inning over 6 innings! Shocking that he only gave up 2 runs.
Something doesn't add up. That's 6 pitches per batter faced? You sure your info is correct, where you there?
22 pitches per inning over 6 innings! Shocking that he only gave up 2 runs.
Something doesn't add up. That's 6 pitches per batter faced? You sure your info is correct, where you there?
Going by the box score. faced 23 batters
Re-stated:
An ethical question: Hypothetically, in mid-season, what if an upperclassmen with good medical coverage and no prospects for the "next level" is willing and eager to throw 150+ pitches in a game....is there anything ethically wrong with that?
Why would a coach allow a pitcher to throw 150 pitches?
Not sure if it ethical but certainly foolish..
Pitchers need to have some courage to ask to be taken out.
I will monitor my sons pitch count and if needed have a signal for him to fake arm soreness. If this happens in college it certainly can happen in high school.
My first instinct would be to double-check the guy doing the pitch-counting. That's 5.7 pitches per BF, which while not exactly impossible seems incredibly unlikely, especially give that he only walked one and only struck out 4. At a "normal" number of pitches/BF that's about a 90 pitch outing, which wouldn't be notable.
All. I was not there but I did listen to the entire game being broadcast. Both starting pitchers were 60+ in 3 innings..
| ip | h | r | er | bb | so | wp | bk | hbp | ibb | ab | bf | fo | go | np | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 6.0 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 19 | 23 | 3 | 8 | 131 | |
| 1.1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 7 | 0 | 4 | 31 |
2013LD - What were the two teams and what was the game date? Is there not an official box score at one of the schools's websites?
All. I was not there but I did listen to the entire game being broadcast. Both starting pitchers were 60+ in 3 innings..
| ip | h | r | er | bb | so | wp | bk | hbp | ibb | ab | bf | fo | go | np | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| 6.0 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 2 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 19 | 23 | 3 | 8 | 131 | |
| 1.1 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 6 | 7 | 0 | 4 | 31 |
It's not literally impossible to do this, but it's got to be incredibly unlikely. 5.7 pitches per batter implies he went to a full count on almost every batter, but he did it without walking or striking out an unusual number of guys. As an example, Tommy Greene pitched a no-hitter in 1991 in which he faced 33 hitters and threw 130 pitches, but he walked 7 and struck out 10, and that's under 4 pitches/batter. Mitch Williams was just over 4.1 pitches/batter for his career.
Pitcher was around 100 pitch mark after 5th having thrown minimum of 22, 15, 20, 17, 21 through those innings. Went back out for the 6th and threw approx 20 more. Scatter in 15 foul balls across the 6 innings and there's the 131. 100 pitches after 5 seems like would have been more than enough for a first outing of the year from the outside looking in.
Just looking at this again, I'm pretty sure the pitch counts are inaccurate for both pitchers. The reliever is at almost 4.5 pitches per batter, which is itself quite high, yet he only walked 1 and didn't strike out any, which implies it was taking him at least 4 pitches per batter to deal with the guys he gave up hits to or got to groundout.
Basically neither of them ever dealt with a hitter in just one or two pitches. Possible mathematically, but not realistic.
Pitchers need to have some courage to ask to be taken out.
I will monitor my sons pitch count and if needed have a signal for him to fake arm soreness. If this happens in college it certainly can happen in high school.
So which is it, BM: show courage and communicate with coach... or watch (that) dad in the stands to know when to start the sore arm act?
You outline a proactive, mature way for a player to handle things himself, and then completely undercut your own son's empowerment by having him 1) defer to you during a game and 2) conduct himself deceitfully with his HC.
I too think something is amiss regarding the pitch count, however if it is accurate, I feel way too many pitches, especially given how early in the season. Shouldn't the coach be looking to get a feel for what he has from his pitching staff this early, and want to spread out the pitch count over several pitchers?
Soylent Green: I understand where you are coming from, with regards to deceit, etc., however I also certainly see where Baseballmania is coming from. The following statement is NOT intended to bash, or denigrate HS coaches or College coaches: however there are certainly at least a few coaches that view winning a game, or setting up their future rotation more important than the health of a young developing man. If it were as easy to defer a common sense approach to the coach without having to intervene, I don't think we would be having this conversation. The mere fact that we are having this conversation, illustrates that there are some coaches who are in charge of the health of our sons, that do not demonstrate a fundamental grasp on common sense, or the health of a pitcher.
Should my son play for such a coach (especially at the HS level), I would have NO problem whatsoever intervening, even if it meant a signal to Jr. to feign soreness after a certain pitch count. Asking a lot for some HS players to take this responsibility on themselves.
Ok....let's talk about this one. HS JV pitcher....at a school with basically no winter throwing program unless the kids do it on their own. First game of the season....last day of March...and it's 45 degrees. 120 pitches for a kid who I know didn't throw all winter...so he had a couple days/week for 3 weeks to get ready. Yes, this happened.....I was there. What do you think??
I don't understand the idea of feigning anything at the HS level. The player should be able to approach the coach about this issue, ideally, and if that isn't feasible, a parent should do so at that level.
At the college level, the player is going to have to be the one doing it, so might as well start learning about that responsibility in HS, IMO.
Stupid and unacceptable for any coach to do this.
jacjacatk: I understand "reasonable" individuals should be able to take a common sense, approach, however "if" this happens, it is quite obvious we are dealing with someone who does NOT possesses common sense, or has already decided that his self-serving motive trumps all. Rather than confronting this mentality, which would call the coach out, possibly risk the players standing on the team, etc., there are other ways to achieve the desired outcome.
If your son's HS coach is so unapproachable that you can't talk to him about this, you shouldn't let your son play for him.
I'd actually extend that to the son approaching him also, with allowances made for underclassmen.
To expand on that answer, I don't think it's productive to teach people to lie to deal with a tough situation. This isn't a white lie situation, and requires more than a white lie solution.
I too think something is amiss regarding the pitch count, however if it is accurate, I feel way too many pitches, especially given how early in the season. Shouldn't the coach be looking to get a feel for what he has from his pitching staff this early, and want to spread out the pitch count over several pitchers?
Soylent Green: I understand where you are coming from, with regards to deceit, etc., however I also certainly see where Baseballmania is coming from. The following statement is NOT intended to bash, or denigrate HS coaches or College coaches: however there are certainly at least a few coaches that view winning a game, or setting up their future rotation more important than the health of a young developing man. If it were as easy to defer a common sense approach to the coach without having to intervene, I don't think we would be having this conversation. The mere fact that we are having this conversation, illustrates that there are some coaches who are in charge of the health of our sons, that do not demonstrate a fundamental grasp on common sense, or the health of a pitcher.
Should my son play for such a coach (especially at the HS level), I would have NO problem whatsoever intervening, even if it meant a signal to Jr. to feign soreness after a certain pitch count. Asking a lot for some HS players to take this responsibility on themselves.
BFS - I took a look at the line by line of the box score and think it's legit. Lots of deep counts and it adds up correctly. But always a chance of input error I suppose.
As for handling HS coaches overusing a pitcher, I guess we all approach things differently and also it's case by case. If the premise is that a coach has overused pitchers in the past and is sending your kid out for another inning with well over 100 pitches already thrown, then yes...whatever it takes to protect the player in the moment. I don't really accept that premise as is though. Conversations should be had and expectations set in advance if necessary. By HS, ideally the player should drive this communication with his HC and/or PC. If that's not effective or comfortable to do, then maybe dad and player have a conversation with the coach together. Pitches should be getting tracked in the dugout either by a coach or by another pitcher/player. The pitcher knows if he's thrown a lot and can ask where he's at on pitch count. He should be able to communicate and be his own advocate at least to some extent. If coaches are unresponsive to the player's communication, then it's time for dad to intervene for sure. If it truly is a negligent situation with the coach overusing pitchers habitually, then maybe you have to establish a hard and inflexible pitch count; son can throw 90, 100, 110 and then he's done for 4 days. If that costs the pitcher innings or diminishes his role, then so be it. We can outline extreme scenarios all day obviously. The better scenario is that the player and coach are communicating and mutual trust is established.
Regardless of anything else though... directing a player to fake arm soreness from the stands is just not a good solution, IMO. It's usually painfully transparent, first off. it's also a poor example to give a young man on how to conduct himself, on or off the field. And I have to say that flashing signs to your son from the stands itself is also not a good approach. That's a common and bad practice at ~12 yo ball, let alone HS.
I'm not trying to preach from any ivory tower here... I've absolutely made more than my share of parenting mistakes at son's games over the years. But you hopefully learn and improve as you go. By HS Varsity, I really believe it's high time to let the player play... and just be there as a fan for support. Be a sounding board and advisor off the field. But the relationship is between the coach and the player... I'm just an interested third party. That's how it should be and really I think that's how you want it to be.
jacjacatk: I agree to some extent, however the option should not be don't play HS baseball, or you HAVE to confront an unreasonable coach....and yes for upperclassmen, maybe they have a better standing to confront, but still confronting that type of individual is useless in most cases. Here are two cases:
(2) Scenarios:
1) BFS Jr. is 2017 (LHP) - very gifted, has already been offered, and most coaches know the amount of work / effort he has put in to get there. He is playing Varsity as Frosh this season. Last week HC walks up to me and asks "is Jr. good for 50 pitch outing in preseason game" (he could have asked Jr., but wanted to know if he threw a bullpen over the weekend)...I answered "yes he's good, his last bullpen was 4 days ago". He replies "great" walks away, then comes back and says "I want to clarify 50 pitch game does not include warm ups...you still good with that?"... my reply "yes, I figured that did not include warm up". Background on coach: was National HS player of year his in early 90's, played at U of Texas where All American pitcher two years, drafted twice, pitched professionally 5 years making it to AAA level Oakland A's. Very fortunate to have him as Jr.'s HC.
2) fellow summer club teammate of BFS Jr. plays at a different HS, also gifted pitcher, where the parents spend a tremendous amount of time / money to help develop son's craft. Fall off-season baseball, practices consist of running poles, soft toss, and hitting...no throwing, and no off season program for pitchers (5A Texas HS). Coach has been there a long time, not huge amount of success, has a do it my way attitude, not very approachable....I have coached clinics with him at several DIII schools in the summer...nice guy away from the field. I encouraged the players' parents to have their son approach the coach, and see if he can mix in some bullpen work, or throwing program, rather than running poles most of the practice. Coaches reply: made the team run extra poles, for "questioning" the coach...now he's on his bad side.
Moral of the story: while I agree that most adults are mature individuals who are approachable for the most part, there are those who just are not.
jacjacatk: I agree to some extent, however the option should not be don't play HS baseball, or you HAVE to confront an unreasonable coach....and yes for upperclassmen, maybe they have a better standing to confront, but still confronting that type of individual is useless in most cases. Here are two cases:
(2) Scenarios:
1) BFS Jr. is 2017 (LHP) - very gifted, has already been offered, and most coaches know the amount of work / effort he has put in to get there. He is playing Varsity as Frosh this season. Last week HC walks up to me and asks "is Jr. good for 50 pitch outing in preseason game" (he could have asked Jr., but wanted to know if he threw a bullpen over the weekend)...I answered "yes he's good, his last bullpen was 4 days ago". He replies "great" walks away, then comes back and says "I want to clarify 50 pitch game does not include warm ups...you still good with that?"... my reply "yes, I figured that did not include warm up". Background on coach: was National HS player of year his in early 90's, played at U of Texas where All American pitcher two years, drafted twice, pitched professionally 5 years making it to AAA level Oakland A's. Very fortunate to have him as Jr.'s HC.
2) fellow summer club teammate of BFS Jr. plays at a different HS, also gifted pitcher, where the parents spend a tremendous amount of time / money to help develop son's craft. Fall off-season baseball, practices consist of running poles, soft toss, and hitting...no throwing, and no off season program for pitchers (5A Texas HS). Coach has been there a long time, not huge amount of success, has a do it my way attitude, not very approachable....I have coached clinics with him at several DIII schools in the summer...nice guy away from the field. I encouraged the players' parents to have their son approach the coach, and see if he can mix in some bullpen work, or throwing program, rather than running poles most of the practice. Coaches reply: made the team run extra poles, for "questioning" the coach...now he's on his bad side.
Moral of the story: while I agree that most adults are mature individuals who are approachable for the most part, there are those who just are not.
If there are adults in charge of children (and for this discussion, I'd include at least HS underclassmen) who aren't "mature and approachable", they shouldn't be in charge of children, and I wouldn't allow my children to play for coaches like the second you describe. Well, actually, my HS son is mature enough to make that decision for himself, and I suspect he'd choose not to play for that coach, but either way.
Now, does that suck that someone like that can force you into having to make that decision? Sure, but welcome to the real world. If my son has to learn that lesson a little earlier than most, that's tough, but he'll survive. And he'll be a better man for having faced the issue head on.
Note, again, that I'm not talking about trivialities here. This isn't about what haircuts are allowed, or jewelry, or something else insignificant. This is about someone endangering the health of a kid, and I'm not going to teach the kid that the best way to deal with that is to try to deceive the coach in order to avoid the problem. Just have a frank discussion about it, and part ways if everyone can't get on the same page.
