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Pitches dropping off the table....

BlueDogBlueDog1,000+ posts
"However, as with the argue that the sharp break of a curveball is many hitteroverhand curveball breaks so sharply that it looks like it is falling off a table, the laws of aerodynamics clearly show tha–as would be required for a sud as and speed of the ball s for this illusion has to do with how the batter perceives the flight of the ball. The angular motion of the ball–that is, its apparent motion across the batter's–seems relatively slow at first, but then rapidly as the ball approaches. In fact, it has been demonstrated that the angular motion becomes so could possibly move his head fast enough to sharp bend."
__________________________

The
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T Texan1,000+ posts
Bluetick Hound:
Read "The Physics of Baseball" by Robert K. Adair. You should like Adair, Bluetick. He is the Sterling Professor of Physics at Yale.

A direct quote from Adair's book:
"Does the ball "break" as it nears the plate? Yes."



Seems like George Strait sang a song about Blue.

"Am I Blue? Yes, I'm Blue.
I'm clueless on baseball & physics too..."
Wink
Last edited by Texan
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
Game, I see your old lady let you on the computer early tonight.......Must be payday.....


Nah - Big Ole Mama is with the younger guy at a tournament.

I am just petting the dog (Blue), and listening to the older guy on radio "not seeing what he sees" - or "seeing what he think he sees" - or "seeing what he thought he saw but didnt really see it."



Last edited by itsinthegame
T Texan1,000+ posts
The old Bluetick hound just keeps barking. You have already unquestionably demonstrated the need to learn physics. I truly wish that you would. Then perhaps it would be possible to hold a worthwhile discussion. Until then, there is no use in further wasting bandwidth.


In the words of Elvis:
"You ain't nothing but a hound dawg.
Crying all the time.
You ain't nothin but a hound dawg.
Crying all the time.
You ain't never caught a rabbit..."
N NHFundamentalsDad100+ posts
Yoda,


Nice to see you came back from the swamp.....

I see you spent your whole day on the net ....so now its a game of who can cut & paste better huh ?

"The secret to understanding a curveball is the speed of the air moving past the ball's surface. As the ball spins, its top surface moves in the same direction in which the air moves. At the bottom of the ball, the ball's surface and the air move in opposite directions. So the velocity of the air relative to that of the ball's surface is larger on the bottom of the ball.

What difference does that make? The higher velocity difference puts more stress on the air flowing around the bottom of the ball. That stress makes air flowing around the ball "break away" from the ball's surface sooner. Conversely, the air at the top of the spinning ball, subject to less stress due to the lower velocity difference, can "hang onto" the ball's surface longer before breaking away.

As a result, the air flowing over the top of the ball leaves it in a direction pointed a little bit downward rather than straight back. As Newton discovered almost three hundred years ago, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. So, as the spinning ball throws the air down, the air pushes the ball up in response. A ball thrown with backspin will therefore get a little bit of lift.

A major league curveball can veer as much as 171/2 inches from a straight line by the time it crosses the plate. Over the course of a pitch, the deflection from a straight line increases with distance from the pitcher. So curveballs do most of their curving in the last quarter of their trip. Considering that it takes less time for the ball to travel those last 15 feet (about 1/6 of a second) than it takes for the batter to swing the bat (about 1/5 of a second), hitters must begin their swings before the ball has started to show much curve. No wonder curveballs are so hard to hit.

One important difference between a fastball, a curveball, a slider, and a screwball is the direction in which the ball spins. (Other important factors are the speed of the pitch and rate of spin.) Generally speaking, a ball thrown with a spin will curve in the same direction that the front of the ball (home plate side, when pitched) turns. If the ball is spinning from top to bottom (topspin), it will tend to nosedive into the dirt. If it's spinning from left to right, the pitch will break toward third base. The faster the rate of spin, the more the ball's path curves.
"



Now do you begin to understand that a ball does have late movement ?????

Or once again, would you like to stand up and be a man and tell us all what you have ever done as far playing this game. Your ignorance on every subject you attenpt to discuss is truely mind boggling.
Midlo DadMidlo Dad10,000+ posts
NHFundamentals has the physics right. The phenomenon he describes was called,in my physics text anyway, dipole moment. I previously explained the phenomenon to Bluedog in a prior thread about rising fastballs. You can find that thread by searching this site for "dipole moment".

Of course, Bluedog didn't listen then, isn't listening now, just persists in his ignorance, arrogance and condescension.

Sorry Blue, Popular Mechanics is not a recognized authority on physics. Try Scientific American.

By the way, doesn't the new pitch tracking camera and software empirically prove how a ball moves? The job of the theorist is to develop an explanation for what is observed as a practical matter to be true. If your theory doesn't explain what is empirically observed, your theory is ****. To say reality is wrong because it doesn't match your theory is ignorant, arrogant and marks you as a moron.
Last edited by Midlo Dad
N NHFundamentalsDad100+ posts
Well Yoda,

Heading out on vacation early in the morn...So...Please do not spend all your time in the next few days running google & yahoo searches to try to back up what you dont understand. Looks like it took you about 2 weeks to find a couple of URLs.....hell, my kid could do better than that when he was in 3rd grade.


I am STILL waiting for you to give us any insight into where you teach and who you teach all this sewerage to. Anyone who really wanted to be open and honest with people would have done that a long time ago.


I have recieved from dozens of PM from members here telling me all about you. Im just not good at following their advice to just ignore you......lol.
N NHFundamentalsDad100+ posts
YOda,

I have a SIMPLE assaignment for you. EVEN you can get this right.


Go to a baseball field where a a real game is going on, stand by the fence so you are perpendicular (thats 90 degrees) to the line on which the pitcher is throwing to the catcher and do nothing but watch the pitches. Heck, take a video camera with you so you can report back here and we can all see what you will see.

Think you can handle it?

(by the way, the 90 degrees is an angle, not a temperature)
N NHFundamentalsDad100+ posts
Yoda,

I quite sure i have seen more than you, but that is ok. your forgiven.

STILL waiting on your answer for who you are and who you have taught. It is amazing you can troll the net for info, make up lies about what others post, and still not have the b_alls to stand up and tell anyone who you are.

but then again, thats the force huh?

Oh by the way, i do have to say thank to you, my next door neighbor owes me a case of beer. And he is here laughing his butt off and how foolish you are.

Remember....90 degree angle.....
T TW344100+ posts
Hi everybody. Everyone having fun. Great criticisms, one-liners, and ad hominem arguments. Quoting theoritical physic's professors that have never swung at a curve ball is contributing to the wealth of knowledge already out there that will greatly assist the young hitters on this site to ....... umhhh ...... to ....errrrrrrrr ........ what exactly are we trying to do here again? OH YEAH. I temporarily forgot. Lost my mind or something. This is the HITTING forum. I remember now. Yeah. The hitting forum. OK. Now I understand. So now we are going to discuss actually hitting a curve ball and the guessing or pre-pitch adjustment or in-flight adjustment we all think the hitter needs to make or not make to hit the curve ball that is or is not an illusion, right? I mean that is what we are here for or am I greatly mistaken?

OK. I am sitting down now with my finger on the "print" button. Everyone with at least three posts on this thread, tell us mere mortals how all this relates to hitting or, more appropriately for the topic starter, recognizing and not swinging at the elusive curve ball "dropping off the table." And thanks in advance for your input.

TW344
GshewGshew10+ posts
Got a question...anyone commenting ever put on the "tools of ignorance" for more than BP? I have been catching (still do) since I was 9..granted didnt see much stuff young but as I have grown older (did a stint in A ball) I can honestly say...the 12-6 seems more a function of loss of velocity, gravity and some physics...needless to say..if you start your swing in the middle of the plate and the ball "droops" even a few inches its a miss or a best a foul...what amazes me is the true slurve...breaking at a 45 across the zone. I sit behind the dish two nights a week and I still enjoy watching a good "dime sized" white spot move across and out of zone....amazing, at least from where I sit.
T Texan1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by baseballpapa:
Fastballs cannot rise unless thrown from a submarine slot.

Curve balls do break late.

The foxtrack stuff you see on TV can answer all this definitively. The ball is digitized by different camera angles. The speed and exact location can be measured at any point once it's pixels on a screen.





G, yep. And you touch on an important point, as did someone earlier as well. Perception is what counts in deception.
C Coachric1,000+ posts
GShew, bless you and here's a tissue. Thank you for putting on the tools, as an old catcher I highly respect the duties of the true field generals of baseball. Please refer to your gear as the "tools of excellence". You deserve the reference.
As for Doggie, please rent the movie "Good Will Hunting" this weekend. When you realize the similarities between you and Matt Damon's character, go ahead and change your handle to Will Hunting.
You have often preached some solid hitting theory here, but you are slowly revealing yourself to be just that, a theorist, who will continue to study and learn and desire how to do it better. Problem is, there is no replacement for experience, and all the theories you are preaching here have been created and rehashed by the experienced crowd, not the theorist.
Enjoy the flic, Will.
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
"......a fastball can rise and a curveball can drop."

Amazing what some people will believe and, actually, do believe......

nd943, first of all, fastballs do not rise...

Second of all, you missed my point on curveballs.....You seem to have no comprehension of what I am saying....



Do you have any test results of how much or how little a pitched baseball drops? How high are the seams and how fast is the backspin? The only tests that anyone has shown me are that a ball going 90 mph for 55 feet drops so much. When I asked about the amount backspin and height of the seams, I did not recieve an answer.The seam height varies from company to comany and I would bet that the amount of times the ball rotates will vary from pitcher to pitcher. I know that I can take a 1 Iron and hit a Titleist Pro V and I can make it go out about 80 yards with a little rise and then it will rise even more due to the dimple pattern, backspin and velocity and will reach a high point and then start down and land about 220 yds away.
T TW344100+ posts
Texan:

Sorry. Must have missed it. What thread are you talking about where anyone said anything about THE OPTIMUM APPROACH TO HITTING A CURVE BALL? The only "other thread" I found is a recent one with the title "curve balls" and started by Fans In The Stands. It talks about such things as "my players have no trouble hitting the curve ball once they recognize it", "we evaluate those that cannot 'make the adjustment' to the curve ball and tell them to lay off it", "hit the curve ball before it breaks", "hit the curve ball after it breaks", "get up in the box", "get back in the box", "hit every curve ball to the opposite field", "pull the inside curve ball and hit opposite field the outside curve ball," etc., etc., ad nauseum. That is important to those high school players out there that can transfer to the school, summer team, fall team and so forth that those brilliant coaches coach at and their players become great curve ball hitters apparently by osmosis but for those mortals that have trouble with the curve ball [watching it go by for a third strike, swinging and missing it in the dirt, etc.,] that I see at every showcase and tournament I attend with my son and cannot leave home just yet, please, for their sake, tell me once again where the thread is that will help them and which posts on that thread you find particularly useful.

Thanks in advance for you cooperation.

Blue Dog:

As much as I truely hate to say this, I am coming more and more to your side of the argument which I perceive to be this. COACHES. NOW HEAR THIS. If you must mess with your hitters, teach them a correct, powerful and CONSISTENT swing and have them make the ball location adjustment with posture, knee bend, bat extension/contraction. I always felt that I could hit a curve ball more solidly than a fast ball with a slight tailing or breaking movement in the zone because the movement of the curve ball while going through the zone and [unless it is a very, very good curve ball] hanging longer in the zone was actually a more hittable pitch from a hitting standpoint. But, based on what I read here involving the hitting experience of others, that was just me.

But what about the timing adjustment? Are you suggesting that is just instinctual and cannot be learned? Are you in agreement with other posters that it is merely "mental adjustments" that are not being made in the fractional micro-seconds after the breaking pitch is recognized and before the swing is started? Isn't there some mechanical adjustment early in the swing [or perhaps immediately before the start of the swing] at the micro-second that the hitter recognizes the curve ball/slider/breaking pitch/change up that that can be taught and practiced to automatically slow the swing starting point down to compensate for the 10 to 20 mph the pitcher has taken off his fast ball with this particular pitch. That would not really be an adjustment in the swing itself but more like a forced slowing of the start read. From your other posts I am guessing that you believe, as I do, that the "mental adjustment" advocated by others after the pitch leaves the pitcher's hand is not a feasible approach as by the time the need for the adjustment is procesed by the brain and the signal is sent, it is too late. So why not practice the recognition factor of the curve ball over and over with a forced mechanical adjustment so the brain is bypassed and the sight recognition of the slower pitch triggers the automatic mechanical adjustment. Of course, I don't know anything about anything either and all the above is JMHO.

All others:

Any comments?

TW344
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
There is that word again "research"---do you ever do anything outside the "lab" like stand in a batters box and take swings or work wityh live players not cyberspace stuff

As for you closing statements regarding hitters lying with regard to hitting velocity/speed you are so out in left field it is sickening

What are you credentials anyway other than reading Popular Mechanics and spewing info from lab techs you may have never played the game?

Any good hitter sits on speed/velocity and not curveballs--what does that tell you?

bet you dont have an answer once again
TRhitTRhit10,000+ posts
Blue Dog

Again no answer--just more questions from cyberspace jock who know squat--will you ever learn to answer a question withoput asking one yourself

Closers pitch one inning---and have more than just heat--- let them pitch two or three inning and see what happens

Get me a Popular Mechanics article that will prove me wrong

Credential,fool,credentials--not regurgitation

Ask any dads on here what there sons sit on--I know my son sat on fastballs and hit in the mid three hundred for his college career

Have you ever been in the batters box?
B bbscout1,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by BlueDog:
TW344, eye/brain interraction and efficient body movement.....Very misunderstood, but, hitters either accomplish this or not accomplish it at different levels of competence or incompetence..........Pick your poison and go with it....

From my research, successful pitchers are successful because of two things.....Outstanding ball movement and/or above average velocity/speed.....Combine the two and you have a great pitcher....

Some hitters claim to be able to hit movement better than velocity/speed......The reason is, because movement is a location problem that the brain can more easily solve.....You, admittedly, are in this group.....

Hitters who claim to be able to hit velocity/speed better are, IMO, not truthful.....Velocity/speed is much harder for the brain to figure out....And, that's why closers are, well, closers........



The successful pitchers have location, movement and deception. They all have velocity, but it can range from 82-100 as in Jamie Moyer and Matt Cain. You should do a little more research.

The hitters that you talk about are incorrect. Great hitters can turn around 95 mph, but even they will hit a lot of ground balls off the quality sinker. (See Brandon Webb).

Closers are closers because they get hitters out in late inning pressure situations. Trevor Hoffman is headed to the HOF and has not thrown a FB at 90 or above in about 8-9 years.His change is his money pitch and that is where deception comes in. Maddux has 326 wins and it was done with location, movement and deception, not high powered velocity. Velocity can get you signed, but location, movement and deception will give you success. Dalkowski threw 105mph, but he never set foot in the big leagues.

If you can't hit velocity, you are not an elite hitter.
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by TW344:
From your other posts I am guessing that you believe, as I do, that the "mental adjustment" advocated by others after the pitch leaves the pitcher's hand is not a feasible approach as by the time the need for the adjustment is procesed by the brain and the signal is sent, it is too late. No - It isnt

So why not practice the recognition factor of the curve ball over and over with a forced mechanical adjustment so the brain is bypassed and the sight recognition of the slower pitch triggers the automatic mechanical adjustment. Why not practice both pitch recognition and mechanical adjustment - albeit a subtle one. In fact - you can add to this. You can also look pre-release - as some pitchers give their breaking stuff away. This is not something that occurs with animated skeletons. LOL


TW344


Too much lab time for the doggie - and too much ego - and far too little actual playing time. IMO.

Wink
Last edited by itsinthegame
T TW344100+ posts
itsinthegame:

Thanks to you for the input. I believe we are in almost total agreement here. I do practice both pitch recognition and mechanical adjustment with my son. We also talk about pre-release tipoffs. By watching the pitcher during warmups and while pitching to other hitters earlier in the lineup, tipoffs can be exposed. It is my opinion that most high school pitchers tip their off speed pitches [at least in our area].

I respectfully disagree with your position on brain processing not being a hinderance to timely adjustment to the off speed pitch. But I don't wish to argue it as there is no realistic way to reach a "correct" conclusion. That is to say, it is somewhat speculative either way.

However, even if there is time for sight recognition, brain processing, message to muscles and finally, appropriate mechanical adjustment from fast ball to off speed pitch, wouldn't it be an efficient use of practice time to work on the sight recognition directly to the mechanical adjustment bypassing the brain [sort of a Pavlov's dog reaction] process and discover if that is teachable, practical and doable?

I have said this before but, since only you, PGStaff, BlueDog and a few others ever respond to anything i say, I suppose I can say it again without too much fear of contradiction. I believe a lot of not so good hitters think too much in the box while the pitch is being delivered. I believe that you should do your thinking outside the box and try to plant in your brain essential information you need to hit that particular pitcher on that particular day with that particular umpire, with the particular outfield fences being where they are, etc. Some of these considerations [certainly not all] are (1) the "pitch tipoffs" of this particular pitcher you are facing that day, (2) what his curve ball does and how you want to approach it, (3) what the umpire is calling this pitcher's curve ball as it relates to balls and strikes, etc. But once in the box, stop thinking and trust your eyes to see the off speed tipoff and your BP training to make the automatic timing and location adjustment and take your natural swing at a pitch the umpire will probably call a strike.

I thank you again for your post especially since it pretty much dovetails what and how I am trying to teach my son to become a better hitter at the next level, whatever that may be. I try to learn from everyone on this site whether they are ex-players, coaches, or theorists. There is a lot of chaff and very little wheat and so we must all find the truly ripe kernels when, where and from whom we can. After all, we can't all be Bill James.

TW344
T TW344100+ posts
Vance34:

Thank you for your sincere concern. I read several sections of information on the site. I carefully read "Culture and Ability", "Destroying Ability", "Philosophy", "Parenting", "How You Move", and "Short Course". I skimmed most of the other sections. I will most likely not sign up for further information. But some of the information I found on this site was helpful.

Again, I appreciate your efforts and your kind assistance in my attempts to offer my child the best opportunity to become a better hitter, thrower, runner and fielder. We all try to do the best we can. Speaking only for myself, I glean whatever information I can from hsbaseballweb.com and seriously consider and carefully examine all points of view and theories. I reject noone out of hand. I try to give advice where I think my advice could be helpful. Mostly, I just ask questions. Often times I know the answer to the questions and i am looking for confirmation. Other times I am seeking wisdom that I do not possess. But, in the final analysis and after all the evidence has been considered, I must make a decision about my approach and do what I think is best for my child.

As far as those who read what I write, I encourage them to listen to the voices of others also. I try to direct those who tend to stray off topic and/or resort to personal attacks against each other to get back to the original questions and issues. Sometimes i do this with sarcasim and other times more directly. Often times is does not work and sometimes I upset people with my directness. That usually does not bother me too much.

But, as for you, now I know where you are coming from and I certainly will not "give me[you] a hard time" for criticizing my opinions and conclusions if they differ from yours. And I assure you I will carefully consider your comments both that might be directed at me and in general in the context of the website you directed me to.

Thank you again for your efforts and I hope to meet you some day and talk baseball.

TW344
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
TW,

Anytime. And it is the speculative (subjective) parts of the game that make it so great IMO.

I am glad you are getting some information that you feel is useful to your son - that is the legacy that Bob Howdeshell created - and that Julie carries on - along with all the other sincere contributors to this site IMO.

I also hope you continue to read (and contribute to) all the great input from all the Moms and Dads and coaches and scouts and others that approach the game the same way you do.

Good luck to your son - and you!

Big Grin
Last edited by itsinthegame

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