Pitching

Throw strike 1 on a corner

Throw strike 2 on a corner

Play go Fish

Throw strike 3  1 ball off the umps favorite corner.

Lots of variables. LH or RH batter? Score? Am I facing Ichiro or Bonds?

And how does a pitcher develop those skills when PC calls all the pitches?

@Good Knight posted:

And how does a pitcher develop those skills when PC calls all the pitches?

You do the best you can within the parameters of what you can control. Pitching coaches calling pitches is an uncontrollable event. Therefore, it’s not worth wasting time with consideration.

Control what you can. Deal with what you can’t control.

My son dealt with this.  Not much he can do. Video from behind the plate or chart pitches if you have someone doing video.  Chart the pitch and the outcome.  Go over it and later and decide what might have been a better option and what worked.  My son had multiple discussions with his coach about calling his game.  After a few trial runs in scrimmages, coach finally let me son call his games senior year.  He had to earn his trust and show him that he had pitching knowledge to back it up.

I'm not a pitcher but a mistake that many young pitchers make is not knowing who they are facing.

You need to observe the lineup and adjust accordingly. A mistake I see is for example being too fine with the 7-8-9 hitters, the pitcher will throw those guys 1-1 sliders, aim for the corners and throw change ups when they can't hit a FB down the pipe.

Then they will strike out one and walk two and then they have to face the strong part of the line up with runners on.

You should mix up your pitches but when a FB down the pipe is enough stick with it and save the tough stuff for the middle of the line up.

In the other hand when you face the middle of the line up with runners on you might need to throw offspeed early in the count and throwing a fat "get ahead" fastball might be a mistake.

But generally I would say throw the first pitch fastball middle away and don't shoot for the corner to make sure you are getting ahead and then you can throw the second one a bit tougher especially with bases empty, you better give up a bases empty knock than a bases empty walk, if he puts it in play first pitch that is great.

With a base open and RISP that changes of course and you don't give him a fat one early in the count to hit.

"True Story"

years ago, a young Rookie was struggling in his 1st year in the MLB.

He asked the coaches when will the pitchers throw their curveball. The Coach [his father] said "when you prove you can hit the ML "fastball"!!!

His name was Cal Ripken.

Bob

One of the biggest mistakes I see in HS is too much dependence on the FB. This is especially true with whoever is calling the pitches. Seven inning games go quick. I’m a believer in changing speeds and mixing up pitches right from the jump. Hitting is about timing and therefore pitching is about upsetting a hitters timing. Nothing does that better than changing speeds. I’m fine with staying with a FB until it’s proven that the opponents can hit it. But unless it’s a dominant FB it’s gonna get hit and the last thing you want is to be behind 3-0 after one inning. I like to see a pitcher establish his off speed stuff early in the game. It makes the hitters think about it. 

Agree. His PC will not even let them throw a cb until thru the lineup one. If you have a great cb it hurts.

@Good Knight posted:

Agree. His PC will not even let them throw a cb until thru the lineup one. If you have a great cb it hurts.

I see this a lot and it makes me crazy. I understand the logic behind it but I believe it to be flawed thinking - and lazy on the part of the PC. If you have good secondary stuff you are doing the hitters a favor by not showing it.  Besides that even an average HS hitter is likely to hit a FB if he knows that’s what he’s gonna get. Any pitcher has a much better chance of success if the hitter has to think about what pitch is coming next. Any PC that doesn’t think like that is doing an injustice to his pitchers. JM strong O. 

Imo it depends a bit. A PC insisting on a FB when a pitcher has given up 5 hits is dumb but efficiency is still a thing (maybe not in mlb but hs teams don't have relievers throwing 98) and you don't have to throw a no hitter every time.

A PC might prefer 7 innings on 60 pitches and 7 hits with no walks over 5 innings with 2 hits, 6 walks, 9 ks on 80 pitches because that saves his pen.

So imo saying let them hit a few fastballs before you turn to your offspeed stuff isn't the worst thing if your fastball is good enough but of course you need to not miss the moment when your FB gets hit around.

Oh he lets them throw FB CU. But if your best pitches are a CB or Slider at 80 mph, I just hate it.

But I also believe that if I want to run the game I should coach.

My experience (as a player and a coach) is that relying too much on the FB first time thru the order usually results on there not being a second time thru the order for that pitcher. Assuming that you are facing a team that has decent (to good) hitters. 

@Good Knight posted:

Oh he lets them throw FB CU. But if your best pitches are a CB or Slider at 80 mph, I just hate it.

But I also believe that if I want to run the game I should coach.

Is he giving up a lot of hits the first time through the order?

@adbono posted:

My experience (as a player and a coach) is that relying too much on the FB first time thru the order usually results on there not being a second time thru the order for that pitcher. Assuming that you are facing a team that has decent (to good) hitters. 

This happened to my son in state semi finals.  He came in relief, throwing 93-94 shut them down.  Next inning, for a great hitting team, coach calls 9 fastballs in a row.  They lit him up and that's all she wrote.  He was so mad/upset coming off the field.  Our coach truly believes that if you are throwing over 90, no one will hit your fastball and he does not allow anyone to shake him off.  That outing really prompted my son to push hard for calling his game.

He is not giving up a lot of hits thru the first order. But a 92 mph FB in IOWA will go a long way. But get to travel ball and college and it's a different story.

@baseballhs posted:

This happened to my son in state semi finals.  He came in relief, throwing 93-94 shut them down.  Next inning, for a great hitting team, coach calls 9 fastballs in a row.  They lit him up and that's all she wrote.  He was so mad/upset coming off the field.  Our coach truly believes that if you are throwing over 90, no one will hit your fastball and he does not allow anyone to shake him off.  That outing really prompted my son to push hard for calling his game.

There is no excuse for ever calling 9 FB in a row against a good hitting team. Maybe that explains why your HS hasn’t done that well in the state playoffs despite having a ton of talent over the past 5 years. I have been involved with a number of HS programs in my area and very few (if any) do a good job developing pitchers and/or managing their pitching staffs. Typically they decide on 2 horses to ride (and often it isn’t even the right 2 guys) and over use them (relative to other options) and call way too many FBs. The programs that are successful year in and year out don’t operate that way. 

That would sum up our program. 2 guys pitching mostly complete games all season. Not using relievers often and then having inexperienced guys having to pitch in playoffs when you can’t just use those two.

@baseballhs posted:

That would sum up our program. 2 guys pitching mostly complete games all season. Not using relievers often and then having inexperienced guys having to pitch in playoffs when you can’t just use those two.

Unfortunately that sums up most HS programs - even most of them that make the playoffs. That’s why if you are in a good HS program, playing for a good HS coach, you should not take it for granted. You should thank your lucky stars. 

There is plenty of merit on both sides of this argument.  Sounds like he is overpowering the lineup, for the most part, with 92 which is the case in most HS environments.  When that is the case, a) why would you want to allow those hitters to catch up by offering up more off-speed? and b) why not save showing them the good curve and slider until second time through, making yourself even more difficult for them to hit, since they won't have seen it more?  I've seen plenty of HS coaches do this effectively.   That said, I do also realize that a lot of P's need to be throwing their pitches in order to be sharp with them and between-inning warm ups don't always cut it.

I agree with adbono - if you are facing a good hitting team that has more than one or two that can handle 92, You work all pitches from the outset, but it doesn't sound like that is the case.  The job of the HS coach is to put the team in the best position to win HS games, not to give your son practice for travel and college games.  Yes, part of coach job is also to prepare him for college, but job 1 is win HS games.  We always strived to find the right balance.  Often times, parents didn't have quite the same perspective with the good of the whole team as the overriding driver in decision making 

Cabbage always makes good points from the perspective of what’s important to a HS coach. It’s very difficult to make accurate generalizations about HS baseball. The level of talent is too big of a variable. Even in the 6A (largest schools) level in Texas there is a huge gap between the best teams and the worst. But at the top of the 6A spectrum in Texas there are schools from DFW, Houston, Austin & San Antonio that are among the best HS teams in the nation. In the best districts in those areas every Tuesday & Friday district starting pitcher is bound for a college team. Usually a handful of position players are too. Every starter on those teams can hit - and most of them can hit a 90 mph FB. Giving teams like those a steady diet of FBs the first time thru the order will insure a couple of things : 1) you will be trailing 3-0 at the end of the 1st inning, and ; 2) the starting pitcher will be out of the game before he gets thru the order one time. IMO you don’t coach dudes the same way you coach an ordinary player. If you do it brings them down to the level around them. If a kid has extraordinary talent let it loose. Don’t put shackles on him. (ie, who was the only person that could hold Michael Jordan to under 20 ppg ? ..........Dean Smith !) 

This was TX 6A semi finals. The team could hit. They won state the next day 18-0.  I agree, the job is win games, obviously what we did during season wasn’t going to work in playoffs. 

And always using 2 guys, gets you through district, probably undefeated... it doesn’t get you through playoffs.  

@baseballhs posted:

This was TX 6A semi finals. The team could hit. They won state the next day 18-0.  I agree, the job is win games, obviously what we did during season wasn’t going to wok in playoffs. 

And always using 2 guys, gets you through district, probably undefeated... it doesn’t get you through playoffs.  

Southlake Carroll is a machine. They are loaded with talent (kids of area pro athletes attend there) and are well coached.  I’m not a fan of the Dragons but they can play. 

@Good Knight posted:

He is not giving up a lot of hits thru the first order. But a 92 mph FB in IOWA will go a long way. But get to travel ball and college and it's a different story.

Well if it works for him why would the coach change that? His job is to win games and if your son gets the job done the coach will stick to that approach. 

@Showball$ posted:

Throw strike 1 on a corner

Throw strike 2 on a corner

Play go Fish

Throw strike 3  1 ball off the umps favorite corner.

Who knew pitching was so easy? 

@roothog66 posted:

Who knew pitching was so easy? 

It’s not unusual for people that have never done something to reduce it down to something simple on paper. 

Kid got hung with a hard-luck "L" today thanks to the new extra innings rule.  Ghost runner on second to start the inning, moved to 3rd on a ground ball, scored the walk-off run on a sacrifice pop fly out to center.  Than was fun

"Inning Eater"

Years ago at Candlestick Park, I was sitting in the office of the GM Tom Haller. Tom and I played in Moose Jaw, Canada. He told me that the  Giants traded for Mike Krukow. Mike is now the SF Giants radio and TV announcer.

I asked Tom Why? Tom said "He is a "inning eater".

Mike pitches 200 innings each year. He saves our middle inning relief pitchers.

To do this successfully, control pitchers need to finish hitters, not waste pitches. Sometimes pitch hitters in reverse.

Bob

Really good mention about pitching backwards, Bob. If a pitcher has a plus breaking ball and only an average fastball, why would you want to pitch conventionally?  You should always pitch to your strengths. It’s a cardinal sin to get beat on a pitch that isn’t one of your best. That means that there isn’t one set formula that works for every pitcher. It is the job of the PC (or whoever is calling pitches) to understand the strengths and the limitations of every pitcher on his staff - and call pitches accordingly. Pitching is a thinking man’s position and attention needs to be paid to what is working (and what isnt) on any given day. That means there should be ongoing in game dialogue between the pitcher, catcher & the PC. The way pitches are called should be adjusted based on how the game unfolds. Every game should begin with a plan but you better be able to adjust on the fly. 

@adbono posted:

Really good mention about pitching backwards, Bob. If a pitcher has a plus breaking ball and only an average fastball, why would you want to pitch conventionally?  You should always pitch to your strengths. It’s a cardinal sin to get beat on a pitch that isn’t one of your best. That means that there isn’t one set formula that works for every pitcher. It is the job of the PC (or whoever is calling pitches) to understand the strengths and the limitations of every pitcher on his staff - and call pitches accordingly. Pitching is a thinking man’s position and attention needs to be paid to what is working (and what isnt) on any given day. That means there should be ongoing in game dialogue between the pitcher, catcher & the PC. The way pitches are called should be adjusted based on how the game unfolds. Every game should begin with a plan but you better be able to adjust on the fly. 

Well the poster said that FB, CU mostly works at his level. It is the pitching coaches job to help his pitchers but it also is his job to manage the staff.

So if he is winning the coach might be willing to sacrifice some dominance of the pitcher for more efffiencency.

It could be that the pitcher is giving 1 or 2 more hits than he could but if he still mostly gets through with 1 or 2 runs and the approach means he is getting through innings quickly it could be the right decision for the coach as he gets more innings out of him.

Now if he gets knocked around it makes sense to change your approach but if he gets the job done it wouldn't make sense to throw more pitches to be even more dominant, I.e 7 innings and 1 run is probably better for the coach than 4 innings and no runs because the guys in the pen will give up more than that.

@Dominik85 posted:

Well the poster said that FB, CU mostly works at his level. It is the pitching coaches job to help his pitchers but it also is his job to manage the staff.

So if he is winning the coach might be willing to sacrifice some dominance of the pitcher for more efffiencency.

It could be that the pitcher is giving 1 or 2 more hits than he could but if he still mostly gets through with 1 or 2 runs and the approach means he is getting through innings quickly it could be the right decision for the coach as he gets more innings out of him.

Now if he gets knocked around it makes sense to change your approach but if he gets the job done it wouldn't make sense to throw more pitches to be even more dominant, I.e 7 innings and 1 run is probably better for the coach than 4 innings and no runs because the guys in the pen will give up more than that.

You and me are not on the same page in this thread.  My comments about pitching backwards were in response to Bob bringing up that concept - not in response to anything said by the OP. So your reply to me (while I agree with what you said) is off topic relative to what I was talking about. 

Ok, then I won't comment any further

Very impressed with the thoughtful advice here. It is as if some of you already know the situation.

Yes with 2 great pitchers we are at state, but as said above that just means our 3rd pitcher throws state final if we get there. (And praying other team has same situation.)

But we are playing and others are sitting at home!