pitching help

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
My 17 y.o. LHP son, just 5'10", has thrown year-round 5-6x week since age 12. At that time, I couldn't find him a team until 1/2 way through the season because he was told his arm was weak.

Each year he has consistently gained in velocity compared to his peers, and he was recently selected by the Seattle Mariners to their NW team which will compete in the Mariner Cup in August. His fastball is now upper 80's and still rising.

He has never had an arm problem. I know there are some who say shutdown completely in the offseason. I cannot address how successful that strategy is, since my kid has not done it. I believe his strategy (throw more often, not less!) is what has made him as good as he is today. Kids just do not throw enough today.

I Agree, and congrats on the Mariner Cup. I coached several kids last summer who played in the MC. Kids should take the off season off only if they have been having problems with their arm IMO.

Thanks, Deemax.. it's a huge opportunity, for sure. Just as a reminder, I believe velocity increases are a package deal. Not just long-toss, but proper mechanics, cardio, plyometrics, band work, lifting. Bum Jr. does it all. He will pitch about 140 innings this year, then shut down (pitching) late October until Bullpens resume in January. But throwing is done continuously.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
... I think the #1 reason kids don't develop velocity is that they do not long-toss and throw enough...

I don't have anything against long toss done properly, but I'm not sure that it is a reason kids don't develop velocity.

I am well acquainted with a 5'10" pitcher who has never done a long toss program. At the last college tryout he attended, they told him he was throwing 88 mph. And that was a couple of months before he turned 17YO. Historically, he can throw his pitch count limit and the last pitch will be as fast as his first. He has never had an arm injury. He has worked very hard on his mechanics and on strength training, though.

Again, I have nothing against a proper long toss program. But I'm just not convinced that it is necessary.

I also think that the arm needs some recovery time. I would recommend at least 4-6 weeks of no throwing.

Dtiger, I'm not sure about the science behind what you talked about. If the muscles were balanced (via proper conditioning) before shutting down, there is no reason the balance should disappear. The main concern with down time is that the player starts up gradually after the downtime. Not easing back into throwing is the most likely cause of problems.

Anyone is likely to "lose" a little velocity after downtime. But they will regain their velociy after they finish fully transitioning back into throwing and then exceed it as they reap the benefits of letting the arm recover.

quote:

My Dad screwed me up, Im going to screw up my son, and hopefully he will screw up his....Just like Im sure you screwed up yours. This is every parents right.

Deemax,
Fortunately our kids learn to rise above what we do to them in most cases and in some cases get to a level beyond our experience where we can just sit, watch and hope for the best.

Texan,

Perhaps either approach would work, but I know of no studies that show consistent long-toss does any damage. I believe most major leaguers long-toss. Would they have otherwise had such strong arms without the long-toss? Perhaps, perhaps not.

I don't think I said long toss done properly would do damage. And again, I have nothing against it. I just can't agree that long toss is absolutely necessary.

There is more than just one way to build arm strength.

Texan, that was my observation so didn't mean to imply that was what you said. I know some college coaches limit throwing to 120 as they feel it is harmful to the release point to go further. Alan Jaeger's approach stresses the "pull down" whereby the release point is regained. Now, reasonable men could argue wheter this is true or not (the release point issue) but I believe by throwing for longer distances my boy's arm has been stretched out better and he has quicker arm speed as a result.

Now, at 17, he says his arm doesn't even get sore anymore--he feels just as good the next day!-- regardless of the number of pitches he throws! (Of course, we'll be careful on excessive pitch counts.)

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
...I believe by throwing for longer distances my boy's arm has been stretched out better...

What does this actually mean? Which muscles/tissues get "stretched out"? The shoulder joint, for example, is the loosest joint in the body. Laxity is more of a problem there than tightness. Balanced strength around that joint would be of value. So, I'm confused about that oft heard claim.

I'm also unclear about how, if things do get stretched out, quicker arm speed would be a "result". Is there science out there that equates "stretched" with "quick"?

is the program your talking about a video that i can buy or is it going to the camp in LA?

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
So lets say for example you throw 7 straight months and then rest for 1 months of no throwing, it is possible the arms muscles (in my case in the back) may not "set" back in the right position after the 7 months.

No.

What will happen is the muscles will weaken, but they can be strengthened again with no long-term ill effects (assuming you ease back into throwing).

Taking time off is essential at all levels, even the pros. You see more arm injuries as you move south to warmer-weather climates. My 12Yo son is now done playing baseball until February.

There is no end to it.

There are more arm injuries as you move South to warmer-weather climates, I believe, because pitching is done year-round. I think pitching too young (before age 13) is also counter-productive, although proper mechanical training of the throwing motion is great for any age. There are growth-plate issues, but mainly children are incapable of perfecting the mechanics.

The injuries I see can be categorized in one of these ways:

1) Back-to-back high pitch-count starts
2) Inadequate warmup
3) Poor mechanics
4) Poor endurance leading to mechanical adjustment
5) High pitch count early in season
6) No shutdown of PITCHING beyond 7 months
7) Playing a position other than 1B the day of or the day after pitching
8) No band work to stabilize the shoulder joint

I have never heard of an injury solely related to long-tossing.

I do not profess to be an expert. I don't know why it works. I can only say what has worked for my son. He had limited pitching experience until age 13, but from age 12 on he has long-tossed year-round. He received excellent pitching instruction to perfect his mechanics from multiple instructors. He works his core, does band and cardio, plyometrics, and pitches about 7 mos. out of the year then shuts down (from pitching, not throwing). He threw 136 pitches yesterday in a complete-game victory. His arm feels great today. His next start should be a limited pitch-count (I believe a little bit higher pitchcount is okay so long as the next start is limited to say 75).

It is up to those wiser than I to debate the merits of my argument. I can only tell you what has worked for my son and what I believe.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Dtiger:
So lets say for example you throw 7 straight months and then rest for 1 months of no throwing, it is possible the arms muscles (in my case in the back) may not "set" back in the right position after the 7 months.

No.

What will happen is the muscles will weaken, but they can be strengthened again with no long-term ill effects (assuming you ease back into throwing).

Taking time off is essential at all levels, even the pros. You see more arm injuries as you move south to warmer-weather climates. My 12Yo son is now done playing baseball until February.

Is your son done throwing a baseball until February or just done pitching? And, if he will still throw, then what's wrong with him playing in a fall league exclusively as an outfielder to further refine his game off the mound? I know players need to take time off, but what is the rationale behind taking 6 months off? I'm not criticizing, just wondering.

quote:

Originally posted by Emanski's Heroes:
Is your son done throwing a baseball until February or just done pitching? And, if he will still throw, then what's wrong with him playing in a fall league exclusively as an outfielder to further refine his game off the mound? I know players need to take time off, but what is the rationale behind taking 6 months off? I'm not criticizing, just wondering.

He's done with baseball until February. However, we may play some catch and work on his screwball if he wants.

Until then, he'll be playing s****r, volleyball, and basketball.

I'm not convinced you have to play year-round to be good when you're older. There's also the question of burn-out.

Finally, he's going through a growth spurt right now, which means that his growth plates are especially soft and vulnerable to injury.

A 12 year old working on a screwball?

You must be kidding !!!!


The hole you dig gets deeper with every post---

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
A 12 year old working on a screwball?

There's nothing wrong with a 12 YO throwing a screwball.

I teach my son to pronate all of his pitches (e.g. tailing fastball, screwball, and curveball). The thing that varies is how much he pronates. I haven't taught him any supinated pitches (e.g. no curveball or slider).

If you study Greg Maddux, he pronates his fastball and change-up. That's why they have arm-side run.

The idea is to teach him how to actually pitch (e.g. focus on movement and deception), rather than just try to blow people away all the time.

The sharp pronation required for a true screwball is not good for the elbow.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:...and work on his screwball if he wants.

?!?!?!?!?!

Texan, there are a few things that go into my arm that make it especially hard to balance, and in the end, it wasn't balanced when I finished.

quote:

There's nothing wrong with a 12 YO throwing a screwball.

Hall of Fame screwballer Carl Hubbell's left arm was permanently twisted, leaving his left palm facing outward at arm's rest.

My father played golf with Carl Hubbell in the mid 60's, and he told me Carls arm was so twisted that he had to grip the club backwards with his left hand.....Does this sound safe?

painguy


Whatever credibility you had has rapidly dissipated with this thought regarding a 12 year old and a screwball

Agreed. Can NOT defend this one. You teach my just-barely-turned 12yo a screwball(or a CB, for that matter) we would have a very loud, unpleasant conversation. What kind of pitch count do you have? 100 or 120?

TPG, are you going to work in the splitter at 13?

TEST….

Put your arm/hand at release point.

Then turn it so that the pinky finger side of your hand is facing forward (football pass style).

Then turn it so that the index finger side is facing forward.

Feel anything?

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
The sharp pronation required for a true screwball is not good for the elbow.

Why?

Please give me some science that backs that statement up.

All the science I've read says the opposite.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Hall of Fame screwballer Carl Hubbell's left arm was permanently twisted, leaving his left palm facing outward at arm's rest.

My father played golf with Carl Hubbell in the mid 60's, and he told me Carls arm was so twisted that he had to grip the club backwards with his left hand.....Does this sound safe?

Can you guarantee that the problem was the screwball and not another pitch? Have you controlled all the variables?

First, there are too many variables at play here to be making statements like this. What exactly was the root cause of the twist? Have you seen X-Rays? How is his UCL? Did he have a problem with bone spurs?

Second, I met Mike Marshall Friday at the SABR convention and his arm is just fine.

Third, one day I threw BP to my guys and threw just screwballs and tailing fastballs. I threw 100 or so pitches and my arm (which is VERY sensitive due to an injury) felt great. Some soreness but no pain.

Fourth, none of my kids has ever had an arm problem.

Fifth, for Jake Peavy to get the tail he does, he has to be pronating like crazy. The same thing goes for Greg Maddux and any other pitcher whose ball tails.

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
What kind of pitch count do you have? 100 or 120?

40-50 at 12U.

On Monday we played a DH and I pitched 8 guys in 10 innings. We won 11-6 and 15-4.

quote:

Originally posted by Bum:
TPG, are you going to work in the splitter at 13?

Maybe.

There's nothing wrong with this pitch either, assuming your hands are big enough to grip it properly.

Remember that this is the pitch that saved Bruce Sutter's career after a major elbow injury. Clemens has also thrown this pitch for a long time.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Put your arm/hand at release point. Then turn it so that the pinky finger side of your hand is facing forward (football pass style). Then turn it so that the index finger side is facing forward. Feel anything?

No.

A better (more realistic) test is to hold your arms straight out from your body so that your body and arm form a "T" shape. That's the orientation of your body at the release point of a high-level throw. Now turn your thumb down (as if you were pouring out a glass of spoiled milk).

I have a VERY sensitive shoulder, due to a Labrum injury, and this causes me no problem whatsoever.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by Bum:
TPG, are you going to work in the splitter at 13?


Maybe.

There's nothing wrong with this pitch either, assuming your hands are big enough to grip it properly.

Remember that this is the pitch that saved Bruce Sutter's career after a major elbow injury. Clemens has also thrown this pitch for a long time.

Chris O'Leary

Chris,

IMO, you should research this much further. The split is losing much of it's initial attraction and for a good reason. While being very effective it has left a lot of victims.

Baseball is full of those who have been exceptions to the rule.

I do believe the split is one pitch that is best left alone by young kids.

Often we read stories about a young pitcher who has never had any arm problems. That his mechanics are great and he follows a certain plan.

I've seen many cases including my own son, where there was never any arm problems at a younger age... Then boom!!! TJ surgery, shoulder problems, etc.

There are NO pitchers who are immune to arm injuries or surgery. It will obviously take a lot more research before solving the problem of risk in throwing a baseball. Despite the fact that more and more people are students/experts in pitching, the number of surgeries are increasing at an alarming rate.

All it takes, is for someone's son to get the results of an MRI, to change their thinking about the dos and don'ts and what they know about pitching. Those who think they have all the answers are missing the most important rule! That being... nobody has all the answers.

I can't even remember how many times I've heard about doing things a certain way and how someones son has never experienced any arm problems doing things that way... Only to find out their son ended up with serious arm problems later on.

I'd be willing to bet that there are several who post here who know that. Me for one!

Bottom line... You can't take a pitcher who has been hurt and say he wouldn't have gotten hurt doing things differently. And you can't take a pitcher who is completely healthy and say he won't get hurt doing things the way he does.

Still, I think research could lower the risk, but only slightly! That still makes it well worthwhile.

PG,

The bottom line is that very few pitches have been studied in a controlled, scientific manner. As a result, everyone's fears have no scientific basis. I think ASMI is trying to change this with the curveball, but that's about it.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
IMO, you should research this much further. The split is losing much of it's initial attraction and for a good reason.

I have researched this and haven't found any glaring problems. Mike Marshall is a little nervous about this pitch, because he thinks the spreading of the fingers can have an impact on the elbow (since that is where the hand flexors attach). However, there isn't great evidence for this.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
While being very effective it has left a lot of victims.

I don't think this automatically follows.

In my experience, the splitter (like the knuckleball) is very often picked up by guys like Bruce Sutter whose careers are in jeopardy due to injuries (which keep them from being able to throw the slider). It's kind of a pitch of last resort.

As a result, the damage may have been already done to these guys' careers and it could be that the splitter is lengthening their careers rather than shortening them.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I do believe the split is one pitch that is best left alone by young kids.

It's certainly not at the top of my list, but I'm not as afraid of it as some. However, I first want my guys to master...

- Tailing Fastball
- Circle Change
- Screwball
- Pronation Curve

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
There are NO pitchers who are immune to arm injuries or surgery. It will obviously take a lot more research before solving the problem of risk in throwing a baseball.

I'm not sure of this. I think there might be a lot of pitchers would wouldn't experience major problems, assuming their mechanics and conditioning program were good.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Despite the fact that more and more people are students/experts in pitching, the number of surgeries are increasing at an alarming rate.

The problem is that these "experts" aren't addressing the problem of overuse. If you optimize a pitcher's mechanics and then overuse him, then you will increase the rate at which he breaks down.

I have deliberately decided NOT to optimize my son's mechanics (IOW he doesn't throw as hard as he could) so as to reduce his injury risk. Right now he succeeds via movement and deception.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I can't even remember how many times I've heard about doing things a certain way and how someones son has never experienced any arm problems doing things that way... Only to find out their son ended up with serious arm problems later on.

The difference is that I'm backing up my ideas with scientific research. That's different than just getting lucky.

Hey guys haven't been here for a while, and just got back on and i ran across this...pain wat the heck are u talking about, a screw ball at 12 thats just ridiculous.No one in their right mind would do that to a kid, y not just kill his arm now and get it over with?

quote:

I have deliberately decided NOT to optimize my son's mechanics (IOW he doesn't throw as hard as he could) so as to reduce his injury risk. Right now he succeeds via movement and deception.

So you are not teaching him good mechanics?

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
Third, one day I threw BP to my guys and threw just screwballs and tailing fastballs. I threw 100 or so pitches and my arm (which is VERY sensitive due to an injury) felt great. Some soreness but no pain.

Fourth, none of my kids has ever had an arm problem.

Fifth, for Jake Peavy to get the tail he does, he has to be pronating like crazy. The same thing goes for Greg Maddux and any other pitcher whose ball tails.

Third... Were you pronating sharply enough to really be throwing a screwball? Perhaps not.

Fourth... A local college where I used to live had a coach who taught the screwball to his pitchers & insisted they use it. The injury rate for his pitchers was very high, higher than any other local college.

Fifth, if you think pronation is required to get movement, you need to educate yourself much more. But then, that was probably evident before.

Finally, both sharp supination and sharp pronation are hard on the arm as any decent sports ortho will tell you.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
It's certainly not at the top of my list, but I'm not as afraid of it as some. However, I first want my guys to master...

- Tailing Fastball
- Circle Change
- Screwball
- Pronation Curve

Your research methodology (or comprehension) needs to be dramatically improved if you're teaching a screwball to young pitchers. Bad research methods are no better than no research at all.

What the heck is a pronation curve? Care to explain how you get topspin on the ball by pronating?

What is truly scary that there are guys like pain guy out there on the loose teaching kids this stuff.

True, TR.

watever happen, to fast ball and change up, thats all young kids need. and how do u teach a tailing fastball, the movement on a fastball is natural, atleaste thats wat i thought

THEPAINGUY

quote:

Can you guarantee that the problem was the screwball and not another pitch? Have you controlled all the variables?

Was it some other pitch?? What other pitch would force his arm to be permanently pronated? Yes, I controlled all the variables...He threw screwballs for a living.

quote:

First, there are too many variables at play here to be making statements like this. What exactly was the root cause of the twist? Have you seen X-Rays?

I believe the "root cause of the twist" was the screwball.

quote:

Third, one day I threw BP to my guys and threw just screwballs and tailing fastballs. I threw 100 or so pitches and my arm (which is VERY sensitive due to an injury) felt great. Some soreness but no pain.

You threw a screwball "one day" during BP and thats evidence in comparison to Carl Hubbell's twisted arm?...What were you doing throwing screwballs for BP?

quote:

Fourth, none of my kids has ever had an arm problem.

Yet. They are only 12.

quote:

Fifth, for Jake Peavy to get the tail he does, he has to be pronating like crazy. The same thing goes for Greg Maddux and any other pitcher whose ball tails.

You dont understand how tail happens. Jake Peavy does not pronate until the ball is out of his hand. Teaching someone to pronate early is nonsense.

Goodness knows I have butted heads with TR & with deemax a few times. When dm, TR & I agree on something, it is probably a good time for you to take notice, tpg.

And I must agree with TR on other one thing. tpg, you really should not be teaching pitching to youngsters. [And please don't take that personally. Good pitching coaches are few & far between.] A deeper and broader understanding is needed on your part. A little knowledge can be dangerous.

I appreciate the effort you apparently are making to understand pitching. But keep up the effort for some time more before trying to be a pitching coach.