pitching help

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
So you are not teaching him good mechanics?

His mechanics are fine. His hip/shoulder separation isn't what it could be. I've chosen not to address the problem because he throws hard enough to get guys out.

One problem with the use of radar guns at the youth level is that they encourage pitchers to throw harder than they need to in order to get guys out.

Velocity becomes an end in and of itself, not just a means to an end.

quote:

Originally posted by pitching101:
pain wat the heck are u talking about, a screw ball at 12 thats just ridiculous.No one in their right mind would do that to a kid, y not just kill his arm now and get it over with?

Why not?

What studies can you cite to back up your statement?

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Third... Were you pronating sharply enough to really be throwing a screwball? Perhaps not.

I'm sure it wasn't as good as Marshall's but it had 6 to 12 inches of arm-side run. I'd tail it away from lefties and in on righties.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Fourth... A local college where I used to live had a coach who taught the screwball to his pitchers & insisted they use it. The injury rate for his pitchers was very high, higher than any other local college.

There are too many variables at work here. The high injury rates could have been due to any number of things.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Fifth, if you think pronation is required to get movement, you need to educate yourself much more. But then, that was probably evident before.

You can also get movement from finger pressure and gripping the ball off-center, just not as much. Also, this generally leads to inadvertent pronation or supination.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Finally, both sharp supination and sharp pronation are hard on the arm as any decent sports ortho will tell you.

The research doesn't back this statement up.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
What the heck is a pronation curve? Care to explain how you get topspin on the ball by pronating?

It's hard.

You do it by pronating as with a screwball but also bending your wrist. This changes the axis of rotation of the ball.

quote:

Originally posted by pitching101:
watever happen, to fast ball and change up, thats all young kids need. and how do u teach a tailing fastball, the movement on a fastball is natural, atleaste thats wat i thought

How often do you hear people being taught to "throw the circle" when throwing a circle change?

When they are taught to do that, they are being taught to pronate.

How many people object to the advice to "throw the circle"?

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
TEST…. Put your arm/hand at release point. Then turn it so that the pinky finger side of your hand is facing forward (football pass style). Then turn it so that the index finger side is facing forward. Feel anything?

Here's another test.

Have you ever tossed a football the way a quarterback does to pitch the ball to a running back when running the option (or with some shovel passes)? So it gets that end over end backspin?

That spin is achieved by powerfully pronating. By holding one tip of the ball between the thumb and index fingers and then driving the thumb to the ground.

That is one drill that I use to teach my guys how to pronate and to develop the appropriate spin (and muscles).

It's almost football season. Try it out.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Was it some other pitch?? What other pitch would force his arm to be permanently pronated? Yes, I controlled all the variables...He threw screwballs for a living.

If the screwball is such a death sentence, then why doesn't Mike Marshall right arm do the same thing? I examined his arm for this reason (in person), and it's perfectly normal.

There's something else going on with Hubbell.

Also, my kids don't throw screwballs all the time. They mostly throw tailing fastballs and circle changes. My son uses his screwball as an out pitch.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
I believe the "root cause of the twist" was the screwball.

You're entitled to your belief, but you have to understand that it doesn't have a sound scientific basis.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
You threw a screwball "one day" during BP and thats evidence in comparison to Carl Hubbell's twisted arm?

I tried to throw a few sliders, and I couldn't stand throwing more than a couple.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
You dont understand how tail happens. Jake Peavy does not pronate until the ball is out of his hand. Teaching someone to pronate early is nonsense.

Please explain how you think you get the ball to tail.

quote:

Posted July 29, 2007 09:14 PM Hide Post
quote:
Originally posted by PGStaff:
TEST…. Put your arm/hand at release point. Then turn it so that the pinky finger side of your hand is facing forward (football pass style). Then turn it so that the index finger side is facing forward. Feel anything?


Here's another test.

And here is one for you..AMSI tested and compared the forces and exerted on the shoulder and elbow between throwing a football and a baseball. They found that, for a variety of reasons(mainly the size of the ball, length of the motion, etc) the forces exerted on a QB's arm were significantly less than those on a pitcher's arm. Not many qb's you hear having rotator cuff or TJ surgery.

painguy

quote:

Also, my kids don't throw screwballs all the time. They mostly throw tailing fastballs and circle changes. My son uses his screwball as an out pitch.

Why not let them throw it all the time...

quote:

If the screwball is such a death sentence, then why doesn't Mike Marshall right arm do the same thing? I examined his arm for this reason (in person), and it's perfectly normal.

Carl Hubbell pitched 3590 innings...Mike Marshall pitched 1386 innings, averaging less then 100 innings per year....

quote:

Please explain how you think you get the ball to tail.

Why? You wont listen to me anyway.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Why not let them throw it all the time...

You know the reason. If you throw the same pitch every time, hitters will start to sit on it. You have to mix things up to be deceptive.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Carl Hubbell pitched 3590 innings...Mike Marshall pitched 1386 innings, averaging less then 100 innings per year....

You're ignoring 1974, the year Marshall won his Cy Young. He threw 208 innings in 106 games. I would not be surprised if Marshall's number of innings was influenced by his personality.

So this doesn't become a Marshall-only thread, let's bring Fernando Valenzuela into the conversation. He was another screwballer who threw into an advanced age. His pitching arm also isn't all twisted up like Hubbell's.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Why? You wont listen to me anyway.

I always listen. I just don't always agree.

Chris,

I have watched Major League BP pitchers many times. They DO NOT throw screw balls. They simply spin curve balls if any at all and they don’t throw running/tailing fastballs. Yet you are throwing screw balls that you claim have 6 to 12 inches of run to 12 year olds. Come ON!!!! Are you throwing whiffle balls?

You’re creating your own problems when you dish out that BS. 12 inches of movement on any pitch is astounding for any pitcher, let alone if it happens during BP to Little League hitters.

If you are truly researching all of this, then you had better be able to learn something. Hate to say it, but it sounds like you have ALL the answers. Is your study complete?

chris

quote:

So this doesn't become a Marshall-only thread, let's bring Fernando Valenzuela into the conversation. He was another screwballer who threw into an advanced age. His pitching arm also isn't all twisted up like Hubbell's.

Fernando's arm went dead at age 27. He pitched off and on with guts for another few years.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
I have watched Major League BP pitchers many times. They DO NOT throw screw balls. They simply spin curve balls if any at all and they don’t throw running/tailing fastballs. Yet you are throwing screw balls that you claim have 6 to 12 inches of run to 12 year olds. Come ON!!!! Are you throwing whiffle balls?

I was trying to teach the boys a lesson; that a pitcher doesn't have to throw that hard to be effective. I was also trying to get them to listen to me. I can't throw that hard because of my shoulder, but I was still able to get them out when I wanted to by pounding righties in on their hands our out on the end of the bat for lefties. If I wanted them to get a hit, I'd leave a slow fastball up and over the plate.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
You’re creating your own problems when you dish out that BS. 12 inches of movement on any pitch is astounding for any pitcher, let alone if it happens during BP to Little League hitters.

First, I wasn't throwing that hard. That makes it easier to move the ball more.

Second, we use raised-seam balls in our league (Rawlings R200s), so it's easier to grip and really rip a seam.

Third, if we ever meet in person, I'd be glad to show you what is possible. You can't get 12 every time, but it is possible.

quote:

Originally posted by deemax:
Fernando's arm went dead at age 27. He pitched off and on with guts for another few years.

First, Fernando's age at retirement is up for debate.

Second, he pitched up to age 44 in semi-pro ball. You can't do that if your arm is dead.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
I'm sure it wasn't as good as Marshall's but it had 6 to 12 inches of arm-side run. I'd tail it away from lefties and in on righties.

I'm sorry, but I am extremely skeptical. I don't believe you got 12" of arm side run. That you would claim such further damages your credibility with anyone knowledgeable about pitching.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
There are too many variables at work here. The high injury rates could have been due to any number of things.

Rather strong correlation, when the comments of good sports orthos and history is considered.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
You can also get movement from finger pressure and gripping the ball off-center, just not as much. Also, this generally leads to inadvertent pronation or supination.

Once again, your lack of pitching knowledge is evident. How much "tail" do you think is needed to be effective? You also get movement from seam orientation and arm slot. And no, using these things does not generally lead to inadvertant pronation or supination. And that statement is based on personal observation, not on someone's theory.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
The research doesn't back this statement up.

According to good sports orthos, sharp pronation is as harmful as sharp supination. Empirical evidence backs this up. Just because you have read one piece of so-called research doesn't change the facts. And this is where your problem is, tpg.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
What the heck is a pronation curve? Care to explain how you get topspin on the ball by pronating?

It's hard.

You do it by pronating as with a screwball but also bending your wrist. This changes the axis of rotation of the ball.

Have you tried to throw a pitch with such mechanics as you describe? At, say, 75-80 mph??? I doubt it, as I doubt you can throw a fastball at 75-80 mph. And I'm not being critical when I say that. Not too many "old guys" can do so any longer.

To get topspin via pronation leads to a strange arm action and stranger release. It would require a very low arm slot (sidearm, actually). And getting any velocity on the ball would be very difficult. All anyone has to do is try this (making sure they get true topspin), and what I am saying will become very evident.

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
And here is one for you..AMSI tested and compared the forces and exerted on the shoulder and elbow between throwing a football and a baseball. They found that, for a variety of reasons(mainly the size of the ball, length of the motion, etc) the forces exerted on a QB's arm were significantly less than those on a pitcher's arm. Not many qb's you hear having rotator cuff or TJ surgery.

Football QBs don't have nearly the number of rotator cuff problems because their shoulder pads keep them from being able to take their elbows above the level of their shoulders. The only way to get their elbows up (e.g. to raise their arm slot) is to tilt their shoulders.

Football QBs don't have nearly the elbow problems because...

1. They don't throw the ball the length of the field with every pass.

2. To throw a tight spiral, you have to pronate your forearm through the release point.

3. Football QBs don't throw sliders or curveballs.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
CYet you are throwing screw balls that you claim have 6 to 12 inches of run to 12 year olds. Come ON!!!! Are you throwing whiffle balls?

You’re creating your own problems when you dish out that BS. 12 inches of movement on any pitch is astounding for any pitcher, let alone if it happens during BP to Little League hitters.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Have you tried to throw a pitch with such mechanics as you describe? At, say, 75-80 mph??? I doubt it, as I doubt you can throw a fastball at 75-80 mph. And I'm not being critical when I say that. Not too many "old guys" can do so any longer.

To get topspin via pronation leads to a strange arm action and stranger release. It would require a very low arm slot (sidearm, actually). And getting any velocity on the ball would be very difficult. All anyone has to do is try this (making sure they get true topspin), and what I am saying will become very evident.

If you go to this page...

- Pronation Curve

...you will find a link to a video showing a guy throwing a pronation curve at timestamp 1:30.

Ignore the funky, Marshall mechanics. I don't advocate them. However, you could easily throw this pitch using Greg Maddux type mechanics.

The QB doesn't pronate nearly as sharply as the screwball pitcher. Significantly slower according to a frame by frame video comparison I have seen. Will try to locate it again. Think about the rate of spin on the football vs. the rate of spin on a baseball.

Chris,

Are you saying the reason you get this 12 inches of movement is because you don't throw it very hard? How do you really "rip" a seam while throwing softly?

Your BP pitches have more movement than Greg Maddux's pitches. (When he was in his prime) Are we suppose to believe that. Tell this same story to a MLB pitching coach.

I can appreciate your time and effort spent regarding injury prevention. I don't understand why you get yourself into these situations, talking about stuff that you obviously don't know ANYTHING about. You keep digging a bigger hole even for the few of us that show you some respect.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Rather strong correlation, when the comments of good sports orthos and history is considered.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Once again, your lack of pitching knowledge is evident. How much "tail" do you think is needed to be effective? You also get movement from seam orientation and arm slot. And no, using these things does not generally lead to inadvertant pronation or supination. And that statement is based on personal observation, not on someone's theory.

Given the size of the sweet spot of a wood bat, 3 to 6 inches of horizontal movement is usually enough to move the ball out of the sweet spot of the bat.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
According to good sports orthos, sharp pronation is as harmful as sharp supination. Empirical evidence backs this up. Just because you have read one piece of so-called research doesn't change the facts. And this is where your problem is, tpg.

Please give me the citation for this.

The pitcher is leaning way over to get the body cleared out so that the arm is effectively in a low slot.

That is not a pitch I would even consider teaching anyone. Especially when an effective curve can be thrown without supination.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Are you saying the reason you get this 12 inches of movement is because you don't throw it very hard? How do you really "rip" a seam while throwing softly?

I can't throw that hard, relatively speaking, due to my shoulder injury. Hard for me is probably in the 50s or 60s.

Have you ever seen a raised-seam ball like the R200? The seams are gigantic. That means it's much easier to get the ball to move than it is with a ML ball (due to the ease of the grip and the aerodynamics of the seams).

As I think about it, I will grant you that some of the break was probably due to the fact that these were scuffed-up BP balls. That may explain why the amount of tail was variable. However, it's not hard to get 6 inches of tail with a new R200.

So I guess the AMSI research means nothing to you? The shoulder pads mean nothin! I coached HS football for 20 years, and qb pads are very small and designed differently to allow them to raise their arm. Your argument that a qb does not pronate as hard proves the amsi research-that they do not create the same amount of force, in part due to the size of the ball. You love to quote your own "research", although you are not a Doctor or scientist, but discount research done by a respected medical organization.

quote:

Originally posted by PGStaff:
Chris,
...
I can appreciate your time and effort spent regarding injury prevention. I don't understand why you get yourself into these situations, talking about stuff that you obviously don't know ANYTHING about. You keep digging a bigger hole even for the few of us that show you some respect.

Well said, PG.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
As I think about it, I will grant you that some of the break was probably due to the fact that these were scuffed-up BP balls. That may explain why the amount of tail was variable.

Next excuse?

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
However, it's not hard to get 6 inches of tail with a new R200.

Methinks you don't understand the difference in deflection due to tail and due to initial trajectory angle.

TPG,

Please get real. Maybe read a bit on physics prior to posting the following nonsense;

First, I wasn't throwing that hard. That makes it easier to move the ball more.

Second, we use raised-seam balls in our league (Rawlings R200s), so it's easier to grip and really rip a seam.

Third, if we ever meet in person, I'd be glad to show you what is possible. You can't get 12 every time, but it is possible.

Chris O'Leary

This is simply crazy talk. You may be on to something with you injury analysis, stick with that.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Rather strong correlation, when the comments of good sports orthos and history is considered.

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

But correlation can confirm sound theory. But you're rather weak on determining the latter.

quote:

Originally posted by thepainguy:
Given the size of the sweet spot of a wood bat, 3 to 6 inches of horizontal movement is usually enough to move the ball out of the sweet spot of the bat.

Once again, your lack of pitching knowledge becomes "painfully" evident (pun intended).

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
The pitcher is leaning way over to get the body cleared out so that the arm is effectively in a low slot.

First, the guy in the clip has got a huge head jerk, which is one reason why I'm not comfortable with all of Marshall's ideas. It may also explain why the guy in the video (Jeff Sparks) had problems making it in the big leagues.

Second, this is how EVERY pitcher, Marshall-trained or not, achieves a higher arm slot; by tilting the shoulders. You see the same thing in Mussina and Koufax, for example. This keeps the PAS hand (and release point) high but below the level of the shoulders.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
That is not a pitch I would even consider teaching anyone. Especially when an effective curve can be thrown without supination.

I would love to see high-speed film of a "safe" curve and see exactly what's going on. Until then, I'm skeptical.

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
So I guess the AMSI research means nothing to you? The shoulder pads mean nothin! I coached HS football for 20 years, and qb pads are very small and designed differently to allow them to raise their arm. Your argument that a qb does not pronate as hard proves the amsi research-that they do not create the same amount of force, in part due to the size of the ball. You love to quote your own "research", although you are not a Doctor or scientist, but discount research done by a respected medical organization.

I don't see any contradiction between ASMI's work and my own.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
But correlation can confirm sound theory. But you're rather weak on determining the latter.

I'll be the first to admit that more research needs to be done. I know that ASMI is doing some research on curveballs. I just hope they design their studies correctly.

quote:

Originally posted by Texan:
Once again, your lack of pitching knowledge becomes "painfully" evident (pun intended).

Please explain.

TPG,

What color is your sky ? Throwing slowly allows more movement ? I suppose less spin is better in your world as well. Basic physics, read up, you seem taken by research. Your injury analysis may have some merit, this junk certainly doesn't help your cause.

I went back and re-read-My mistake, I did not catch the reference to a qb's option pitch, which makes it more ridulous. How can you compare an option pitch(which is a pushing motion) to throwing a baseball at hi velocity. There is no way that can be safe for a kid's arm..

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
I suppose less spin is better in your world as well.

Yes.

It's called a knuckleball.

The lack of initial spin means the subsequent spin will be extremely hard to predict.

quote:

Originally posted by Yankeelvr:
Basic physics, read up, you seem taken by research. Your injury analysis may have some merit, this junk certainly doesn't help your cause.

If you study the aerodynamics of knuckleballs, you will learn that there is a velocity range (in the 60s) at which a ball will move the most. Knuckleballers don't throw "only" 60 or so because that's as hard as they can throw (which is what some believe). Rather, they throw that hard because it's the speed at which a knuckleball moves the most.

You can see the same thing happen with a volleyball. My serves move the most at a speed that is lower than my maximum serving speed. It's a challenge to serve a ball hard but not too hard.

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
How can you compare an option pitch(which is a pushing motion) to throwing a baseball at hi velocity.

It's the same motion.

Some people believe that it's impossible to pronate without feeling pain. That's not the case.

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
There is no way that can be safe for a kid's arm..

Why not?

by the way, I too appreciate what you do in terms of injury prevention. I don't know if I agree with all that you say, but I do with some of it.
By the way, just b/c your guys have not had arm trouble does not mean they won't. They are getting older and will be exerting more force than their growth plates and ligaments, etc can withstand.

quote:

quote:
Originally posted by handyrandy:
How can you compare an option pitch(which is a pushing motion) to throwing a baseball at hi velocity.


It's the same motion.

NO IT IS NOT!! It is a push, at most it travels about 15 feet, and the ball comes off the thumb. Good grief

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
By the way, just b/c your guys have not had arm trouble does not mean they won't. They are getting older and will be exerting more force than their growth plates and ligaments, etc can withstand.

I got started on this whole thing because one of my guys, before I knew anything, ended up with inner elbow pain due to accidentally throwing a slider (for just one inning). I shut him down, did the research, and here I am.

quote:

Originally posted by handyrandy:
NO IT IS NOT!! It is a push, at most it travels about 15 feet, and the ball comes off the thumb. Good grief

Pronation is pronation.

It doesn't matter whether the ball comes off the thumb or the index finger. The same muscle (the Pronator Teres) does the work.