pitching in college but never in high school

So he isn't playing High School Baseball?

I would say that what you are proposing if I understand you, is extremely rare and possibly non existent.  

That's a very tall order.  Velocity and variety of pitches can be developed.  He may have the competitive nature and the work ethic.  But, learning the game at a higher level takes playing.  There are so many facets he will need to become familiar with that are situational, I think he would need to play at least a full season of travel or HS ball to get acclimated.

If his motivation is scholarship, that is not gonna work.  Way too much work involved and even less likely that a college HC will give him scholarship $ if he hasn't even been playing.

I know of college pitchers who haven't pitched but played other positions prior to college then go on to succeed at pitching in college but none that didn't play at all since LL.  In fact, as a HS coach, I see kids all the time who were great in LL, didn't play for two or three years, then come out for HS and be blown away at how much the game has passed them by. 

There are plenty of examples of players who played other positions like catcher or outfield or infield and then became pitchers in college or the minors.  But I cannot think of any who did not play high school baseball and then got a chance to be a pitcher at a college.

Assuming he is a 2018 or later grad, maybe you could sign him up with a pitching coach this Summer to have him start working with him to see if he thinks it might be possible.  At least his arm should be fresh from having not overused it in high school like a lot of kids.  And the coach can check his velocity and determine if he would be a candidate to pitch in college.

Even if he developed the arm, is he going to know what to do in various situations?  Bunt coverage, backing up a base, covering 1st on a flip from the first baseman, pitching out of the stretch,holding a runner on, pickoff moves

i suppose that can all be learned, but unless he is throwing 90 mph+ it is difficult to imagine a college program wanting to take the time to teach someone every aspect of the game.

Compared to Little League, High School Baseball moves fast, and College Baseball is much faster than that and a completely different game than Little League.  

By the way, Grandpa, why would he not want to pursue pole vaulting or tennis for college scholarship $$?  I know kids who have had a far easier time getting track $ than baseball $.  Also, there are plenty of threads you can search here to get a good feel for what baseball scholarship money is typically available at various levels of play.

Lastly, if he gets in front of an instructor with a radar gun and it reads 90 or above, forget everything we all just said. 

Kingsman: what's his HS graduation year?

What he did in LL is 100% irrelevant. Are you familiar with the term Slim and None? And Slim just mounted his horse to leave town. I don't believe you have any idea of the talent level required to be offered a scholarship to play college baseball. Or how little money if available for scholarships. For D1 it's 11.7 for up to  the first 27 players of 35. For D2 I believe it's 9. For D3 it's 0. At best your grandson would be an extreme longshot.

Anything possible... your grandson wouldn't have had the reps in game situations, he wouldn't have had the games to have command at the plate with high level hitters..... quite a few things he wouldn't have had by not pitching prior to college.  But still possible...

But the glaring obvious: when would a college coach see him pitch before recruiting him for his college team?  I guess it could be movie like and he could walk on to the team while in college without ever pitching a game. Still possible...

Maybe there are preferred routes of improving ones chance's of playing in college and picking up college scholarship money?  Hopefully he has the equivalent work ethic in the classroom and he could gain scholarship money for his academics strengths.  

Good luck

(edited grammar)

From your profile it looks like you're from Mississippi.  Take him to an Ole Miss or MSU camp.

If they ask you to stick around and talk afterward, then you'll know he has a chance.

Worst case, you spend the $100-$150 and walk away with a T-shirt and a weekend of memories.

If you're his grandpa, and you are able to catch his pitches without fearing for your life, he's not throwing nearly hard enough for there to be any hope of him pitching in college.

It's a big hill to climb. The closest story that comes to mind is Jeff Weaver -- he played JV ball his sophomore year of high school, didn't try out for the team at all junior year, and then came back senior year and served as the closer for his high school varsity. Then he went to Fresno State and tried to walk-on to the baseball team, only to get cut his freshman year. But he tried out again his sophomore year and made the team. And of course went on to an 11-year career in the majors.

www.simivalleyacorn.com/news/2...1-03/sports/035.html

Lorenzo Cain didn't play Baseball until his Soph year of high school, and apparently wasn't very good at all until his Senior year and was not heavily recruited to play college.  But Lorenzo Cain has elite athleticism that is very very rare to find.

http://www.kansascity.com/spor...p-for-lost-time.html

 

I mean look, anybody that can throw strikes at 90 mph is going to play college somewhere, no matter the experience level.  The reality is that it is exceedingly rare for an untrained athlete to throw 75 let alone 90

3and2Fastball posted:

I mean look, anybody that can throw strikes at 90 mph is going to play college somewhere, no matter the experience level.  The reality is that it is exceedingly rare for an untrained athlete to throw 75 let alone 90

I think even 75 is being pretty generous.

First things first.

He hasn't played in a long time.

Get him signed up for whatever school, travel, or rec team he can get on.

See how he stacks up and whether he still likes the game. 

As others have said baseball scholarship money is very hard to get.  It is around 1 in 10 players who play HS baseball will play in college at any level. People who don't have HS baseball players seem to underestimate the amount of talent you have to have to play any level of college baseball.

A cheap way to do this is see if you can get him on the mound and pitch to some Varsity HS players from your area.  Watch how the batters react to how he pitches to them.  If he can blow his fastball by him anytime he wants or keep them completely off balance with his offspeed pitches then he may have a shot.  You should then get him a good pitching coach and work intensively at this point on strength and conditioning. Then you can worry about getting him seen, there have been a lot of good suggestions.

If they can square him up routinely or are not fooled by his offspeed then he has a ton of work to do.

Why not pursue Pole Vaulting?  I ran track in college.  Its an awesome sport to play in college.  The way the meets are structured its possible for red-shirt team members to still compete.  In addition open meets can attract competitors other then college athletes, so I had the opportunity to compete against some olympians.  There is lots of down time between competition which leads to a very good social atmosphere around the meets.  Some of my better friends on the track attended schools other then the one I attended.  Yes you want to "kill" them when your competing but afterwards you end up hanging with them.  

Agree with many of the posts here.   It's tough to get any sort of athletic scholarship (especially baseball).  As pointed out roughly 1 in 10 actually are fortunate to play at the college level whether it be D1, D2, D3, NAIA or JuCo.

Typically "the summer" between an athletes junior and senior year is the time to display his talents at showcases, etc.  Usually D1's make their offers in November of the athlete's senior year.  It's possible to generate interest of D2/D3/NAIA/JuCo after that, but it won't be easy. 

If he is not already playing for the HS team or has at least been playing on a travel team, it will be a challenge to make up for lost time.  It doesn't take long to fall behind significantly.

Keep in mind there are only 11.7 full scholarships available at the D1 level and no one gets a full scholarship.  The 11.7 is divided to a a max of 27 players with a minimum of 25% (of the tuition) each.  And that is if the program is fully funded.  D2 is 9 scholarships - again if it is fully funded.  D3 cannot offer scholarships, but will work to put a financial package together.

If you are looking for scholarship money of any kind, there is far more academic scholarship $$ out there. 

If he just wants to play ball while in college, some colleges have club teams, but many times the player/parents have to contribute $$ for uniforms, travel expenses, etc.

Do you guys think you have been played?

Go44dad posted:

Do you guys think you have been played?

It's possible. But some people really have no idea. It's amazing how many people have kids playing ball who have little clue. I knew a lot of people who thought baseball players at every level of college ball are on a full ride. I love the look on their face when they process it's 11.7 rides for the entire team at the best level of ball. It's more entertaining g when they find out D3 (where most local kids play if they do) get nothing.

Go44dad posted:

Do you guys think you have been played?

Always a possibility.  Don't really care.  

The Pirates once signed a couple of cricket players. But they had time to be trained and developed. They still didn't make it to the majors. A college pitcher needs to be able to deliver soph season if not sooner.

RJM posted:

Go44dad posted:

Do you guys think you have been played?

It's possible. But some people really have no idea. It's amazing how many people have kids playing ball who have little clue. I knew a lot of people who thought baseball players at every level of college ball are on a full ride. I love the look on their face when they process it's 11.7 rides for the entire team at the best level of ball. It's more entertaining g when they find out D3 (where most local kids play if they do) get nothing.

I see a lot of people who are stunned at the realization that the majority of players who are starting position players on D3's were All Conference players in High School.  

JCG posted:

If you're his grandpa, and you are able to catch his pitches without fearing for your life, he's not throwing nearly hard enough for there to be any hope of him pitching in college.

This sounds pretty reasonable.  I quite catching Ryan several years ago.  I

3and2Fastball posted:

RJM posted:

Go44dad posted:

Do you guys think you have been played?

It's possible. But some people really have no idea. It's amazing how many people have kids playing ball who have little clue. I knew a lot of people who thought baseball players at every level of college ball are on a full ride. I love the look on their face when they process it's 11.7 rides for the entire team at the best level of ball. It's more entertaining g when they find out D3 (where most local kids play if they do) get nothing.

I see a lot of people who are stunned at the realization that the majority of players who are starting position players on D3's were All Conference players in High School.  

When the new high school coach came on board he wanted to do more than win. He wanted his program to be known for getting kids to college ball Under the previous coach there were 17 losing seasons in 20 years with only a handful of kids going on to D3. One kid was drafted in the 7th round. Those were his three winning seasons. 

When my son was a junior he asked in a fall meeting with parents and players, "Who wants to play college ball?" Everyone raised their hands.

"Who wants to play division one?" Everyone raised their hands. Then he asked who has been to a D1 game (two stadiums with biking distance). Three hands went up. He then said there are three potential D1 players in the room (they all went D1).

One father got indignant. He asked how the hell the coach knew. The coach told him there are only three players working hard enough to get to D1 and they've been doing it since middle school. It's why they've been invited to play on the travel teams they play.

Eleven kids from my son's junior year went on to play college ball. The three D1, a D2 and the rest D3. The team won the conference and went to states his junior and senior year. 

At the high school my son will be going to there has been just one D1 player in the last 20 years, and he was a pitcher at a high academic school.  His Dad thought he would get drafted out of college but it didn't happen. Zero position players have gone D1 out of that high school in 20 years.  There have been about eight D3 players in the last 10 years.

Of course in 7th & 8th Grade, half the parents of the Little League All-Star and Travel Ball kids think that their son is going pro, and figure college ball is a given.

The numbers don't add up.

Wouldn’t that depend on if he could get the hitters out?

Just as some back ground, his last year in LL, he faced 61 batters when he was not experimenting but throwing his stuff, and gave up just 5 hard hit balls,….a 12 to One ratio of batters to hard hit balls. But we have the videos of those 5 at bats that gave up the hard hit balls. And we see in everyone of them there was something incorrect about what we have since realized was his CORRECT delivery but did not know it at the time. Looking back, we see when his delivery was right and he was throwing his stuff he knew worked, the videos show he never gave up a hard hit ball in two years time. So we really don’t believe he would have given up all 5 of those he did give up.. He might really have been 15 or 20 to One or even better. And that was with just one delivery. He really developed two. The other went 5 no hit innings on two outings in all star competition and he never pitched that way again. We didn’t know such as that made a difference at the time to have gotten him to still use it. Anyway if he got his pitches, his deliveries down to not make those mistakes, and got to where he could mix the deliveries together against a hitter in the same at bat, I don’t think we have any idea how good he might be. He might be 12 to One at the highschool level if he were playing now. By comparison, I have monitored Waynewright and Marinez for the Cardinals. They are pitching every third day or so and making millions a year and they rarely get as high as 4 to One in any game I have monitored or any other big league pitcher. So he has a lot of room for his stats to drop and still have a chance.

I think I said he has pitched to me [9th grade] with increased speed and just as accurate at the adult distance and looks fine. Thanks for the help, Kingsman

Kingsman posted:

Wouldn’t that depend on if he could get the hitters out?

Just as some back ground, his last year in LL, he faced 61 batters when he was not experimenting but throwing his stuff, and gave up just 5 hard hit balls,….a 12 to One ratio of batters to hard hit balls. But we have the videos of those 5 at bats that gave up the hard hit balls. And we see in everyone of them there was something incorrect about what we have since realized was his CORRECT delivery but did not know it at the time. Looking back, we see when his delivery was right and he was throwing his stuff he knew worked, the videos show he never gave up a hard hit ball in two years time. So we really don’t believe he would have given up all 5 of those he did give up.. He might really have been 15 or 20 to One or even better. And that was with just one delivery. He really developed two. The other went 5 no hit innings on two outings in all star competition and he never pitched that way again. We didn’t know such as that made a difference at the time to have gotten him to still use it. Anyway if he got his pitches, his deliveries down to not make those mistakes, and got to where he could mix the deliveries together against a hitter in the same at bat, I don’t think we have any idea how good he might be. He might be 12 to One at the highschool level if he were playing now. By comparison, I have monitored Waynewright and Marinez for the Cardinals. They are pitching every third day or so and making millions a year and they rarely get as high as 4 to One in any game I have monitored or any other big league pitcher. So he has a lot of room for his stats to drop and still have a chance.

I think I said he has pitched to me [9th grade] with increased speed and just as accurate at the adult distance and looks fine. Thanks for the help, Kingsman

What he did in LL really has no bearing, . . . it's where's he at, at the end of HS and he's got to have something to show recruiters and scouts to get their attention; that's either a history of being able to get hitters out at this level and up and/or showing them now that he can get hitters out.  So . . . YES, a LOT depends on whether he can get hitters out.  Recruiters and scouts take a close look at prospects performances to try and determine if they "project" to the next level.  So, they've got to see him pitch and they've got to see him pitch in multiple competitive situations.  It's VERY competitive out here and your son is competing against very good players who recruiters and scouts HAVE SEEN.  So, the best thing your son can do is get out there on some team and play to show these recruiters and scouts that he can actually do what you're saying he can do.  This next summer is a good time to get seen.

1) Let's start with you accepting what he did in LL is meaningless. It was low level pre high school baseball. If accepted. I've on to number two.

2) How hard does he throw. Don't guess. Tell us what the radar gun says. 

From this point it's possible for people here to have a legitimate conversation about where he should target for some long odds. 

The opportunity for a baseball scholarship is extremely low if not non existent. He may have a long shot at walking on.

But it starts with what he radar gun reads.

Add: Don't ever compare your son to anything a MLBer does. You lose credibility. The comparison puts me past 50/50 you're trolling the site for reaction. 

With respects, I thought it was about getting people out.

Just as some back ground, his last year in LL, he  faced 61 batters when he was not experimenting but throwing his stuff, and gave up just 5 hard hit balls,….a 12 to One ratio of batters to hard hit balls.   But we have the videos of those 5 at bats that gave up the hard hit balls.  And we see in everyone of them there was something incorrect about what we have since realized was his CORRECT delivery but did not know it at the time. Looking  back, we see when his delivery was right and he was throwing his stuff he knew worked, the videos show he never gave up a hard hit ball in two years time.    So if he had known then what to correct like he knows now and has already done that,  we really don’t believe he would have given up all 5 of those he did give up.. He might really have been 15 or 20 to One or even better. And that was with just one delivery. He really developed two. The other went 5 no hit innings on two outings  in all star competition and he never pitched that way again.  We didn’t know such as that made a difference at the time to have gotten him to still use it. Anyway if he got his pitches, his deliveries down to not make those mistakes, and got to where he could mix the deliveries together against a hitter in the same at bat, I don’t think we have any idea how good he might be. He might be 12 to One at the highschool level if he were playing now. By comparison, I have monitored Waynewright and Martinez for the Cardinals. They are pitching every third day or so and making millions a year and they rarely get as high as 4 to One in any game I have monitored or any other big league pitcher.  

He was not as fast as a lot of boys even in little league....but he got people out at a far better rate.  So he has a lot of room for his stats to drop and still have a chance.

  Don't forget  Stu Miller had a fast ball in the 80's and he  pitched in all star games!

It doesn' t matter how fast you throw .... It matters whether you can fool the hitters..  And that's really all it does matter,  Kingsman

You aren't going to be taken seriously by any college or pro scout anywhere talking about Little League stats, results or experiences.   And the same is true here.  

Start with RJM's excellent advice:  how many MPH is he throwing? If he isn't throwing at least 80 mph there is not a single college anywhere that will take him.  If he is throwing below 85 it is likely that there won't be a single D1 school that would be interested.

You can rant & rave, if you want, about how that isn't fair or whatever, but those are realities that one must wrap their mind around.

 

On the very, very slight chance this isn't a troll thread, my suggestion is this - take the kid to a Perfect Game showcase.  One of the things they do best is rate players based on future projectability.  Post back with the results.

Kingsman posted:

With respects, I thought it was about getting people out.

Just as some back ground, his last year in LL, he  faced 61 batters when he was not experimenting but throwing his stuff, and gave up just 5 hard hit balls,….a 12 to One ratio of batters to hard hit balls.   But we have the videos of those 5 at bats that gave up the hard hit balls.  And we see in everyone of them there was something incorrect about what we have since realized was his CORRECT delivery but did not know it at the time. Looking  back, we see when his delivery was right and he was throwing his stuff he knew worked, the videos show he never gave up a hard hit ball in two years time.    So if he had known then what to correct like he knows now and has already done that,  we really don’t believe he would have given up all 5 of those he did give up.. He might really have been 15 or 20 to One or even better. And that was with just one delivery. He really developed two. The other went 5 no hit innings on two outings  in all star competition and he never pitched that way again.  We didn’t know such as that made a difference at the time to have gotten him to still use it. Anyway if he got his pitches, his deliveries down to not make those mistakes, and got to where he could mix the deliveries together against a hitter in the same at bat, I don’t think we have any idea how good he might be. He might be 12 to One at the highschool level if he were playing now. By comparison, I have monitored Waynewright and Martinez for the Cardinals. They are pitching every third day or so and making millions a year and they rarely get as high as 4 to One in any game I have monitored or any other big league pitcher.  

He was not as fast as a lot of boys even in little league....but he got people out at a far better rate.  So he has a lot of room for his stats to drop and still have a chance.

  Don't forget  Stu Miller had a fast ball in the 80's and he  pitched in all star games!

It doesn' t matter how fast you throw .... It matters whether you can fool the hitters..  And that's really all it does matter,  Kingsman

It matters which people he gets out and what kind of hitter he is able to fool.

The average Little League team produces one or two varsity high school players. Carving up kids who won't play in high school has no predictive value for what would happen if he ever faced college hitters. 

I'm going to close this thread because a conversation that compares a pitcher who never played on a 90-foot diamond to a major leaguer from a half century ago is just too silly to be allowed to go on.

If your grandson wants to play baseball in college, he needs to start playing baseball now. Help him find a team. Let us know how it goes.

Best wishes,