Of the 2 theories of pitching mechanics, Tall and Fall vs Drop and Drive. What's best for pitchers or do you see components of both in good pitchers?
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not being a wiseguy, but really tall and drive is what I taught my boys. Especially IF you have height. Pitching is a whipping action and you should take advantage of of every moving body part involved.
my two sense.
my two sense.
I laughed out loud when I read this post (not because of your question Gamer). I could almost feel through the key board everyone on this board intentionally avoiding posting on this topic wanting not to open this can of worms. I think everyone would agree that this topic has the potential to be the largest string ever (I am betting it won't).
Lets answer this boy's question.
The drop & drive isn't really taught much anymore. Well, not the old drop & drive. This is where you push off the rubber, which most pitching coaches nowadays believe can put you in a potentially unbalance postion from time to time. Some people call the down & out the drop & drive method. However, these are really two different styles. The down & out uses late -(really just right) hip flexation to begin the power move.
The tall & fall brings the leg down from high postion in an arc.
I don't know.......... Pitchers have done well with all sorts of styles. The no-look-over-extend, the chicken-submarine, etc. I teach the down & out from a stretch postion (no wind-up). You can't mess it up. By pitching from the set postion you eliminate extra effort and unneeded movement. (it is also hard on the batter, because the ball is at release point very fast). The down & out makes it easy for the pitcher to accurately hit the same movement each time. This style also provides for best maximization of body power (that statement is usually where the controversy begins). Anyway, that is what I think and teach.
Lets answer this boy's question.
The drop & drive isn't really taught much anymore. Well, not the old drop & drive. This is where you push off the rubber, which most pitching coaches nowadays believe can put you in a potentially unbalance postion from time to time. Some people call the down & out the drop & drive method. However, these are really two different styles. The down & out uses late -(really just right) hip flexation to begin the power move.
The tall & fall brings the leg down from high postion in an arc.
I don't know.......... Pitchers have done well with all sorts of styles. The no-look-over-extend, the chicken-submarine, etc. I teach the down & out from a stretch postion (no wind-up). You can't mess it up. By pitching from the set postion you eliminate extra effort and unneeded movement. (it is also hard on the batter, because the ball is at release point very fast). The down & out makes it easy for the pitcher to accurately hit the same movement each time. This style also provides for best maximization of body power (that statement is usually where the controversy begins). Anyway, that is what I think and teach.
Different strokes for different folks
This will get ugly again unless someone can point Gamer to the old threads that explains this in depth.
This will get ugly again unless someone can point Gamer to the old threads that explains this in depth.
For those who replied thanks. I thought it might get a little more action but like Savannah said maybe everyone is avoiding the topic intentionally.
Gamer ....
Pitching is the one area where verbal nomenclature seems to vary considerably from instructor to instructor. There isn't any true objective standard. Tall/Fall and Drop/Drive are attempts to add verbal labels to the extreme opposites in the delivery. Most players tend to be somewhere in between. Since Tall/Fall and Drop/Drive are presented as your only options in the discussion, no one is really happy. It's like discussing politics. You have ultra-conservative republicans and ultra-liberal democrats as your only labels where most people have a huge mix of moderate somewhere in their nature.
When you look at pitchers who say the subscribe to the Tall/Fall school of thought, check out the knee on the plant leg as they extend and you'll see a degree of flexion there.
Now go look at someone who says they are Drop/Drive. You are going to still see an effort to create a downward plane for the ball to travel ... they need some tilt. The mound is elevated for a reason. They need to remain "tall" so the pitch doesn't get flat.
What we teach is to keep a degree of flexion (athleticism) in your plant leg but don't actually bend the knee and drop down. The lead foot you drive down and out in a glide just above the surface of the mound in an arc to landing. It has, according to the old nomenclature, elements of both and neither.
You still find an occasional pure tall/fall guy and a rare drop/drive, but most players are in between. Extremes don't seem to work well in pitching or politics.
Pitching is the one area where verbal nomenclature seems to vary considerably from instructor to instructor. There isn't any true objective standard. Tall/Fall and Drop/Drive are attempts to add verbal labels to the extreme opposites in the delivery. Most players tend to be somewhere in between. Since Tall/Fall and Drop/Drive are presented as your only options in the discussion, no one is really happy. It's like discussing politics. You have ultra-conservative republicans and ultra-liberal democrats as your only labels where most people have a huge mix of moderate somewhere in their nature.
When you look at pitchers who say the subscribe to the Tall/Fall school of thought, check out the knee on the plant leg as they extend and you'll see a degree of flexion there.
Now go look at someone who says they are Drop/Drive. You are going to still see an effort to create a downward plane for the ball to travel ... they need some tilt. The mound is elevated for a reason. They need to remain "tall" so the pitch doesn't get flat.
What we teach is to keep a degree of flexion (athleticism) in your plant leg but don't actually bend the knee and drop down. The lead foot you drive down and out in a glide just above the surface of the mound in an arc to landing. It has, according to the old nomenclature, elements of both and neither.
You still find an occasional pure tall/fall guy and a rare drop/drive, but most players are in between. Extremes don't seem to work well in pitching or politics.
I have to agree with PhoenixDad here in that the cues "Tall and Fall" and "Drop and Drive" are somewhat antiquated.
Even the static balance of the "Tall" position is changing to a more dynamic one.
I really haven't come across anyone advocating a "Drop and Drive" technique lately, but I'm sure someone could find one.
Best thing is to be educated and find what technique or cues are best for you.
Rollerman
I used to believe 100% that good mechanics would help prevent injury. I just don't anymore. I have seen and watched as many arm & shoulder injuries from pitchers that have had so called perfect mechanics. I really think injuries are part dumb luck, warming-up improperly and bad nutrition/lack of rest.
On the other hand, velocity and different types of pitches can be greatly enhanced by certain mechanics.
On the other hand, velocity and different types of pitches can be greatly enhanced by certain mechanics.