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Pitching Rant

A agamennone110+ posts
All,


So far this baseball season I have gotten at least 10 phone calls and had another dozen or so conversations with parents regarding pitch counts and abuses on the mound. At this point, there is so much information out there medically and scientifically that it would be considered malpractice by a coach to allow a pitcher to throw an extreme amount of pitches all for the sake of a meaningless win at 10u through HS baseball. So far this year I have gotten reports of a 13 year old throwing 167 pitches in a 2 day time period, a 14 year old throw 119 pitch complete game last week , a 16 year old throw 158 pitches in one game and another 18 year old throw over 200 pitches in a 3 day span. This is stupidity at the highest level.

If I were a parent of one of these boys this would enrage me. The reason for this is simple. This is NOT the Major Leagues. These boys are not under multi-million dollar contracts with Lloyds of London insurance on their arms. When you hear big league managers/pitching coaches allow a MLB pitcher to go 135+pitches it is not comparable to youth baseball in any way, shape or form. The reason for this is the MLB pitchers for the most part have a very good understanding of their body, their mechanics and how to throw to take stress off of their arms and transfer that to the rest of the larger muscles and have been training properly for the entire off season and by the way are full grown men who are much stronger and their bodies able to handle that type of stress much better. They also have been through a building up process in spring training to get their arms and bodies ready.

The other side of this is development. At younger ages, you usually have two "pitchers" on a team who just happen to have good arms and throw harder than the rest of their teammates so they get most of the time on the mound. This means that a guy who may have huge upside on the mound but has control problems never gets a real chance to work through some of his issues because a coach is "scared" to put him on the mound because they might lose if he pitches...call the therapist, the kids will never recover emotionally or mentally if they lose a game! Actually, it's the coach who is finding his self worth through winning a 12U or HS game that needs the help. The kids will be fine, they just want to play the game and be taught well!

Amount of pitching:
Age Max pitches/game Max games/week
8-10 52 +or- 10 2 +or- 0.6
11-12 68 +/- 10 same
13-14 76 +/- 10 same
15-16 91 +/- 5 same
17-18 106 +/- 5 same

These are the pitch counts from Dr. James Andrews group and ASMI in Birmingham, AL. He was my surgeon on my Tommy John surgery. The part to understand in these numbers is that these are not a starting point. They are a MAXIMUM, meaning if it is March, these kids should not be at their maximum number of pitches but they should be much lower than this and giving some of the other guys on the team a chance to develop as well and not just worrying about a win. Also keep in mind it is not the number of innings a kid throws but the number of pitches. When you combine high pitch counts with poor physical conditioning and a lack of good throwing mechanics (there is a right and wrong way to throw a baseball) and you are just asking for your kid to end up on the sidelines or on the operating table.
If it were my son, there is no way I allow these abuses to go on. Say something to the "coach" or pull him off the team. It's that simple. For what it's worth, my 13u team went 29-15 last year and not one pitcher threw over 75 pitches, we are 8-3 to start out this year and we have not had one throw over 60 pitches so far. Could we win a few more games by keeping a guy in there longer...probably. Do I care? No. Do you?

Brandon Agamennone
8-Year Pro Pitcher and Tommy John Surgery Recipient
brandon@prosourceathletics.com
Original Post

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A agamennone110+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by PA Dino:
quote:
If it were my son, there is no way I allow these abuses to go on. Say something to the "coach" or pull him off the team. It's that simple.


What do you recommend a parent do, if their son is being over used or even abused by, well, for instance a high school coach? How would you confront the coach?


PA Dino,
Please remember that this is YOUR son, not the son of the coach. For him, he either is not thinking about your son's future...and I don't mean a pro career, I mean the next month or so or he simply doesn't care about his arm. You are actually in a position of power in my opinion. If your son is being overused and abused then it means the coach thinks highly of his pitching ability and you have a couple of options:

1) Pull him off of the team. Not the first course of action but sometimes necessary and then do research on a good place to put him in summer ball.
2) Set the parameters with the coach on how much you are willing to let him pitch. Like I said in the beginning of the original post, there is too much information out there about pitch counts on young arms and mechanics and the healthy boundaries there should be with pitching for him to turn away as if he doesn't know any better.
3) Have a courteous talk with the coach and be kind but truthful. If he doesn't agree, but you have legitimate reasons(kept pitch counts, # of days a week pitching) and it's gone on for a long time then you have a leg to stand on and just remember it's YOUR son. Would you send your son into battle without armor? of course not. Just because a guy may be nice or treat your son well off the field does not mean he knows what he is doing on the field, particularly in pitching. It is the least well taught aspect of baseball.

hope this helps.

Brandon
JPontiacJPontiac500+ posts
I feel like my dad (not necessarily all of my coaches, but some) did an excellent job of trying to consider my health with pitching decisions as I went up from youth leagues through high school balls. More than once I had to be the embarrassed kid whose dad had to tell the coach that I had thrown too much.

Even so, I feel that looking back I was overused. Some of it was my fault, some of it was the coach's fault, some of it was my dad not pushing hard enough. Mostly though, I think we didn't always know better. Even in the brief time from my youth league days to now, in college, much has been improved in the field of knowledge for pitcher injury prevention. I'm glad that at least Little League now has some pitch restrictions -- the old innings limits really allowed for some abuse of young arms. Eventually, all of this information should trickle down to the youth coaches that never gave a second thought to this level of detail.

I also agree that the best players and pitchers at those younger levels do not necessarily have a great success rate in terms of the high school and college players they may become. Knowing this, youth coaches need to balance a desire to win (it IS good to win at any age, of course) with that realization that kids are going to grow, change, etc and just need opportunities to play. Losing a game isn't the biggest thing in the world and there may be more to be learned in losing than any other time.
B bostonbulldogbaseball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by JPontiac:
I feel like my dad (not necessarily all of my coaches, but some) did an excellent job of trying to consider my health with pitching decisions as I went up from youth leagues through high school balls. More than once I had to be the embarrassed kid whose dad had to tell the coach that I had thrown too much.

Even so, I feel that looking back I was overused. Some of it was my fault, some of it was the coach's fault, some of it was my dad not pushing hard enough. Mostly though, I think we didn't always know better. Even in the brief time from my youth league days to now, in college, much has been improved in the field of knowledge for pitcher injury prevention. I'm glad that at least Little League now has some pitch restrictions -- the old innings limits really allowed for some abuse of young arms. Eventually, all of this information should trickle down to the youth coaches that never gave a second thought to this level of detail.

I also agree that the best players and pitchers at those younger levels do not necessarily have a great success rate in terms of the high school and college players they may become. Knowing this, youth coaches need to balance a desire to win (it IS good to win at any age, of course) with that realization that kids are going to grow, change, etc and just need opportunities to play. Losing a game isn't the biggest thing in the world and there may be more to be learned in losing than any other time.


JPontiac, I read in another topic where you believe you might be done pitching because of pain you are experiencing.

I bolded your comments above because I think it is imperative for fathers of boys growing into men to safeguard their development as pitchers.

I realize that this applies for the most part to those pitchers who tend to be more dominating and therefore are relied on to win more games than others thereby increasing the odds of being overused.

Some vocal minority on this forum tend to believe that the coach "knows best" and for the parents to keep out of it. Well your experience, as well as others, show that coaches will coach to their level of experience. They are doing the best they can with what they know but generally this can be harmful to players, especially pitchers.

That is why I believe it is important for fathers of pitchers to speak with the head coach at the beginning of their first season in high school to discuss the maximum pitch count per week that will be allowed. If that offends the coach then so be it.
A agamennone110+ posts
It has been my experience that honestly one of the main issues in dealing with the HS coaches on this particular topic is simply pride. Our whole organization is former college and professional players who are our coaches and we have tried to do free "coaches clinics" to present the information that we learned. We do this not to say, "look at us" but rather to offer information that can be useful in training young men for the future and not putting them at risk of injury and improving both the players overall experience and the coaches long term approach to helping the kids. Unfortunately, even with a very high level panel of experts they tend to be not very well attended. Most of these coaches who I reference in the original post are always looking for the easy way, instead of the right way and it affects far too many young arms. thank you for the comments and it's good to know people are trying to find out the right information to protect their own and others' kids.

Brandon
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
quote:
Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
Some vocal minority on this forum tend to believe that the coach "knows best" and for the parents to keep out of it. Well your experience, as well as others, show that coaches will coach to their level of experience. They are doing the best they can with what they know but generally this can be harmful to players, especially pitchers.


The general concensus is and always has been on this site, that parents should not interfere with the coach regarding lack of playing time or other issues regarding managing where the player should be placed (ex. JV vs V). There has been significant discussion over the years about overuse. All one has to do is visit the pitching forum.

IMO, it is the parents responsibility to do their homework regarding safe pitch counts for specific age levels as well as proper shut down time during the year.

Can't always blame the coach for the injuries, the parent holds just as much accountability. Have heard so many times, "the coach ruined my sons arm". Well, where was the parent when all of this was going on? Well, mom and dad, YOU helped in that injury as well. There is so much information on the internet, everywhere, there should be no excuse for injuries caused by over use.

This has been a good topic about something that has been discussed many times here but as new parents come with concerns or as their sons pass from middle school to HS, it is always important to address over and over.

It might be appropriate to move this to the pitching and throwing forum. It won't get lost there.

Boston,
Again I feel that your comments are meant to stir the pot.

Please point out to us where anyone said that parents should NOT speak to the coach about pitching overuse concerns?

The pitcher should speak to the HC about expectations (beginning of season to end), he has to learn when to say enough is enough and he should be aware that there are guidelines. Player should be taught WHY he should stop pitching when he feels something isn't right and tell his parents and coach (both) when something hurts.
Last edited by TPM
JPontiacJPontiac500+ posts
I think it is perfectly reasonable to go to son's coach and ask about his philosophy in terms of pitch counts, rest, etc. If he doesn't have one, that is not good and you'll have to basically lay something out for him. This requires that you've done your homework like others have mentioned. If he has a plan, evaluate whether it is reasonable. It CAN and most likely WILL differ from your own "perfect" plan, so be prepared to think critically and openly about this coach's philosophy. I don't think it will be worth quibbling over 10 pitches or something like that.

The important thing in terms of the coach-parent relation is to start the conversation as if the coach is the expert and you are just a concerned parent (that is all you are!). You're more likely to end up at the right place than simply taking the coach aside to tell him how to coach your son. Save that for when he endangers your son.

As for my previous post, I just want to emphasize that I can't blame any particular person because my problems were certainly related to cumulative use in addition to possible overuse. I can think of occasions in which I probably should have rested more and I can think of many others when I got the rest I needed. Sometimes I even took grief from the "macho men" in my town for refusing to pitch if I didn't feel healthy. In the end, an overhand throw is an unnatural motion and there is going to be some degree of damage every time you do it. I don't want to pretend that my injury came because of such and such day that I threw too many pitches. Interestingly, my injury problems came about at a time when my arm was being cared for extremely well and I was in the best state of general health in my life. The injury came on gradually over the course of years and while I could have reduced my risk and perhaps played longer if I had done things perfectly, there is also an element of bad genetic luck in play here too.

I guess the lesson would be to be unrelenting in your quest to keep your son's arm healthy. You may have passed on a predisposition for injury or maybe you've passed on great durability. He benefits from great care either way. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure that I'd have my son start pitching a full workload as young as I and many others did. I'd want some work on the skills to be there, but there's no use in tearing down an 8-13 year old's arm, in my opinion.
coach2709coach270910,000+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
Considering that my personal tutors were Nolan Ryan (Nolan Ryans Pitching Bible) and Ted Williams (The Science of Hitting) I probably know more about hitting and pitching than most high school coaches.


I read a book about how to perform surgery. I probably know more about how to do a surgery than a doctor does.
I IEBSBL1,000+ posts
quote:
Coaches aren't gods


As a Head Varsity baseball Coach I agree with this statement. To often in my profession I have seen coaches that believe the are in that realm. Furthermore I do not agree with the statement that parents should not be able to speak to a coach about their son's playing time. If a parent wants to know why their son is not playing or why I have them playing in a certain spot I have always been more than happy to speak to them about it. I will not continue to have the conversation over and over but I will give them the courtesy of answering their questions. A parent's job is to worry about their son and a parent should have every right to question what is going on with their son ESPECIALLY overuse. I also agree that no parent should ever blame a coach for overuse unless they to are willing to blame themselves. I am not a stickler for cookie cutter pitch counts and believe that all players carry a different pitch count. I do believe that the pitch counts listed at the top of the post is pretty close to where all pitch counts are close to.
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
Brandon,
Nice post. I agree with PGStaff, the kids you're working with are very fortunate.

I've shared my son's arm history in the past. I coached him in youth/travel ball through 8th grade. During that span, my team's always kept a simple pitching chart. Two separate columns for strikes & balls for each inning, and the type of pitch that was thrown (only fastball & change was thrown through age 12). The goal was to limit each inning to 12-15 pitches with 70% strikes. Where I failed as a dad/coach, was not giving proper rest time in between games during travel tournament weekends.

I spoke to his coach regarding playing time once in the four years he attended high school. The conversation wasn't about playing time per se, it was about the concern I had with him bringing my son in to pitch from the outfield on a cold afternoon without warming up in the pen the prior half inning. The coach understood and it didn't happen again.

One problem that was addressed by Eric Cressey last week in his blog is young pitchers (HS ages 14-18) throwing/pitching to the radar guns during showcases, especially in the winter when arms aren't in the shape they should be in. Looking back to the winter of my son's sophomore year of HS, he pitched two innings in a HS intra-squad game on a Wednesday. A few days later he was still sore going into a weekend showase in January. I informed him to make sure he was good and loose, and to speak up if he had any pain. I knew one of the coaches/reps running the showcase, and asked that they limit my kid to the five batter minimum. He pitched his inning (5 batters) and did well. The following day, I'm sitting in the stands and I see my son warming up in the bullpen again. I didn't want to be the parent to come down and complain, so I sat quiet. If I could have done it over, I would have walked down and said NO, he's not pitching another inning. Of course a 16 year old kid will say he's okay to pitch, and he showcased well. Unfortunately, that was the last time he toed the rubber his sophopmore season, he didn't throw one inning during the spring, as he was limited to the outfield after struggling to heal from a sprained UCL. BTW, I'm a proponent of showcase baseball...but it made me angry that my kid was run back out to the mound the next day after my previous conversation.

I would have to say that my son threw more innings/pitches,etc...from his rising senior HS Summer, Fall, Winter, and during the Spring regular season, than the three previous HS years combined. Early on (soph/junior) he was being recruited as an outfielder due to his limited time on the mound. Once it was evident that he had a chance to pitch in college, we kept him busy on the showcase circuit, travel tournaments, and scout-ball.

Fastforward to his frosh year of college (last year) and he was having tendonitis issues during the Fall. He went into the spring and oblique issues surfaced, and he ultimately redshirted. He was assigned to a team this summer in the WCL and came out of the pen. He pitched in five games (seven innings), and lasted a little more than two weeks before he felt the dreaded Pop in his elbow and his summer was done......Not only his Summer, but his Fall, Winter, and Spring. He will be eight weeks post-op from Tommy John Surgery this coming Monday. It's tough, but he's been handling it very well and I'm proud of him.

You can follow every rule and injuries may still occur, it's just a fact of life in the sports world. In my son's case, arm issues from early on finally caught up to him. As a parent, we have an obligation to help maintain our child's health and well being. Don't be afraid to speak up and talk to your son's coach, whether it's in the youth level or HS level.
PD PA Dino500+ posts
IEBSBL,

Regarding coaches not being approachable:

quote:
As a Head Varsity baseball Coach I agree with this statement. To often in my profession I have seen coaches that believe the are in that realm. Furthermore I do not agree with the statement that parents should not be able to speak to a coach about their son's playing time. If a parent wants to know why their son is not playing or why I have them playing in a certain spot I have always been more than happy to speak to them about it.


As a High School Coach for 11 years, it would be interesting to have you review and comment on the following thread entitled "Need Advice". The above response implies that you would disagree with the majority of the advice given there but you should speak for yourself.

Need Advice
Last edited by PA Dino
B bostonbulldogbaseball100+ posts
quote:
Originally posted by coach2709:
quote:
Originally posted by bostonbulldogbaseball:
Considering that my personal tutors were Nolan Ryan (Nolan Ryans Pitching Bible) and Ted Williams (The Science of Hitting) I probably know more about hitting and pitching than most high school coaches.


I read a book about how to perform surgery. I probably know more about how to do a surgery than a doctor does.


The difference is I can't kill anyone by practicing what I learned.
TPMTPMHSBaseballweb Member since 2003
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bsbl247:
I would have to say that my son threw more innings/pitches,etc...from his rising senior HS Summer, Fall, Winter, and during the Spring regular season, than the three previous HS years combined. Early on (soph/junior) he was being recruited as an outfielder due to his limited time on the mound. Once it was evident that he had a chance to pitch in college, we kept him busy on the showcase circuit, travel tournaments, and scout-ball.
[QUOTE]

Thanks for relaying your son's history. Most likely the above contributed much more than anything else. May I ask if he took more innings jump than 30 in one given year? Parents need to understand how important it is to manage their pitchers during the recruiting time which can cover over a 2-3 period for many. Pick and choose wisely those tournaments, showcases, camps etc and remember for those who live in warmer climate to take time off.
I hope that he is doing well.

As we all know injuries happen and setbacks are a bummer. Frown

Prime9,
Good question to ask. JMO, I don't think that any coach owes any parent an explanation, this question should be addressed to the coach by the player. Of course it you are paying a travel team mega bucks and your son is sitting, then by all means
there can be a discussion. This is totally wrong to take people's money and then not give out playing time. And by all means do not stand by and watch your son be overused.

For younger pitchers, look for a coach that is more interested in fundamentals and development rather than trophies.

Boston,
You have not made any attempt to answer the question I directed to you.

Please tell us where you read that anyone said a parent should not talk to a coach if there are concerns about health of pitcher?
Last edited by TPM
itsinthegameitsinthegame5,000+ posts
TPM - the boston troll dude cant do that. I am glad you are addressing him directly - but he wont be able to respond in any meaningful way.

As for his comment about not being able to kill anyone with his "knowledge" - I think it speaks for itself. An idiotic statement.

I do agree with him - he wont kill anyone with his idiotic statements - but he may influence a few readers and kill their potential careers - at worst - or their enjoyment of the game at the least.

A waste of bandwidth - no doubt. A mind numbing troll that kills brain cells with every post. Just my opinion.

(I wish we still had Chuck Barris here so we could gong the guy and get him off of this site for good. LOL)
Last edited by itsinthegame
bsbl247bsbl2471,000+ posts
[QUOTE]Originally posted by TPM:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by bsbl247:
I would have to say that my son threw more innings/pitches,etc...from his rising senior HS Summer, Fall, Winter, and during the Spring regular season, than the three previous HS years combined. Early on (soph/junior) he was being recruited as an outfielder due to his limited time on the mound. Once it was evident that he had a chance to pitch in college, we kept him busy on the showcase circuit, travel tournaments, and scout-ball.
[QUOTE]

Thanks for relaying your son's history. Most likely the above contributed much more than anything else. May I ask if he took more innings jump than 30 in one given year? Parents need to understand how important it is to manage their pitchers during the recruiting time which can cover over a 2-3 period for many. Pick and choose wisely those tournaments, showcases, camps etc and remember for those who live in warmer climate to take time off.
I hope that he is doing well.

As we all know injuries happen and setbacks are a bummer. Frown

TPM,

There's no question that the increased work load his senior year contributed to his injury. However, he had suffered setbacks going back to age 14, so senior year was just the straw that broke the camels back. His surgeon suggested that he may have needed surgery back to his sophomore year due to the length of time it took to get back on the mound pain free...so who knows? I'm just hoping that everything works out, and he's back next year...he deserves it.

P.S. The answer to your question...Yes, his spring baseball innings increased more than 30. Not to mention, the increased load in the fall, winter, and previous summer.

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