Player Punishment

I've heard the "running is stupid for baseball" and "running is stupid for punishment" arguments for years.  I'll counter.

1. I will agree that sprints are better than long runs for baseball.  That said, running (mostly sprints), agility and other cardio are still very useful.  True, a player isn't typically going to run very far during a game but lack of cardio conditioning shows up late in games and late in seasons often in the form of fatigue, injury and lack of energy.  All affect play.  One example - a fielder busts it a few times after balls in play defensively and then comes in and has a weak AB because he's still a bit winded.  Agility - quick first steps and good lateral movement make a difference in ways that I hope would be obvious.

2.  Let's assume for a minute that a good coach utilizes some combination of instruction, praise, encouragement, reward and yes, sometimes discipline/punishment.  Think about this.  When it is time for the latter and you have a team at the field, there just aren't that many options when you want to make the point and get back to the business at hand.  That's why running tends to be the go-to.

I would genuinely be interested in hearing better realistic solutions when discipline/punishment is in order under those circumstances.   

@Consultant posted:

Has anyone watched the Korean HS practice?
Bob

I have not.  Is there a link where it can be viewed on line?  Always interested in seeing how others may be doing things differently and then look at the results.

I've read most of the responses and just wanted to add what I think.  I don't see a problem with this type of punishment but it shouldn't be your go to move.  Punishing the entire team needs to be like your 3rd step in correcting behavior.  You need to explain ahead of time before you step foot on the field / weight room / wherever what your expectations are. 

Team punishment probably should be happening at the HS level because there is still a ton of teaching HOW to play at this level.  At the college level a coach should know ahead of time if this is typical behavior for a guy.  You're the one recruiting him so you should know how he acts and you're the one who wanted him so why punish the team for your choice?

What I sometimes do is if we are having a terrible practice where most guys don't have it mentally to run to a pole and back.  I've explained ahead of time and reiterate after this wasn't a punishment.  Take the minute or so it takes to run to a pole and back to get breathing a little hard, get the blood pumping and get your mind right.  It usually works but not always - still dealing with teen boys.

  I agree with @cabbagedad. Proper conditioning is an essential part of playing any sport. Baseball is no different. And players have complained about the methods of conditioning that are imposed on them since the beginning of time. Especially when conditioning is combined with punishment. That’s just the way it is.  
   But what I have noticed is that the leaders among the team don’t complain. They accept the consequences and hold their teammates accountable to do the same. That is a very important part of building a winning team. Which is a critical part of a college coach’s job and a huge difference between HS and college.
   IMO what this thread is about is some people don’t approve of the way a coach decided to exercise a teaching moment during the course of doing his job. Nobody was actually there other than the coach and the team. Chances are that the coach made his decision based on more things than we know. And he probably had good reason(s). In college kids don’t get coddled anymore and parents don’t have weekly booster club meetings where they get to give input about what they think (about anything).
  Kids are going to endure some hardship over the course of a season. Some fair and some not. Being in good physical and strong mental condition allows a team a chance to overcome hardship. As parents you don’t get to decide for the coach how he applies training to try and achieve the team goals that maintaining his job depends on. If a HC has a history of being consistently over the top with his methods  (and many of them are) you should have learned about that during the recruiting process. That kind of information is not hard to find. If a player finds himself in a really bad situation that there was no way to predict then a hard decision needs to be made. No player should have to tolerate abuse. But sometimes there is a fine line between hard coaching and verbal abuse and a lot of people don’t know the difference. It’s easy for good hard coaching to seem abrasive to anyone that’s never seen it before. And a lot haven’t. But that doesn’t make it wrong. Part of the maturing process of every player is learning how to accept being coached hard while also knowing how not to tolerate abuse. This goes for parents as well. They need to accept that their kid may be coached hard and be okay with it. But not allow their son to stay in an abusive environment. It can be tricky at times. But the information is out there if you ask. One thing is for sure. College players and their parents don’t get to sit in their safe space, have a discussion about how the program should be run, and then go the the AD with their opinions. You either get on board or find a new ship.

@coach2709 posted:

I've read most of the responses and just wanted to add what I think.  I don't see a problem with this type of punishment but it shouldn't be your go to move.  Punishing the entire team needs to be like your 3rd step in correcting behavior.  You need to explain ahead of time before you step foot on the field / weight room / wherever what your expectations are.

Team punishment probably should be happening at the HS level because there is still a ton of teaching HOW to play at this level.  At the college level a coach should know ahead of time if this is typical behavior for a guy.  You're the one recruiting him so you should know how he acts and you're the one who wanted him so why punish the team for your choice?

What I sometimes do is if we are having a terrible practice where most guys don't have it mentally to run to a pole and back.  I've explained ahead of time and reiterate after this wasn't a punishment.  Take the minute or so it takes to run to a pole and back to get breathing a little hard, get the blood pumping and get your mind right.  It usually works but not always - still dealing with teen boys.

Great post Coach!

@Francis7 posted:

Scrimmage intrasquad game. Player hits a routine fly ball but doesn't hustle and run it out hard and to the coach's expectations.

Coach has the entire team run suicides because of the player's infraction.

Me? I get it. I'm defending the coach to those who are upset over the move. This is how I am explaining it:

This is Coaching 101. It's the oldest play in the book and used by coaches in every sport: Baseball, Basketball and Football.

While these kids are dying running suicides, the kid who caused it is hearing everything from "Thanks a lot Charlie!" to "Charlie, if we ever have to do this again because of you, I will personally rip off your nads and stuff them down your throat."

It's peer pressure to make sure the kid never does it again and it's a warning shot to everyone else that you better run it out or else 39 of your teammates are going to suffer badly and want to kill you.

Others see this as the coach is punishing innocent kids and potentially causing physical injury to those who are already sore and aching and now have to run suicides.

I guess there are other ways to send a message? Maybe the coach could bench the player for the next 3 scrimmages or something more individually focused but also visible to the entire team?

From a coaching, player or other perspective, what's the best way to handle this type of situation?

For the record: Not my kid who hit the fly. But, he is one who is really pissed that he had to run because the other kid didn't hustle.

As someone who has played baseball, coached, and works in sports medicine, I have my own little take on this.

1) I think running is absolutely stupid as a punishment. ~24% of adults in the US meet recommended PA guidelines and this is causing major issues. The last thing I want an athlete to do is associate exercise with punishment.

2) What is the goal of this? To prevent it from happening? So as a coach - which you're teaching your players to be great, responsible upstanding reflections on the institute they're at - I'd rather sit that player down and explain, "I expect to see hustle, not just on ground balls, not in and out of the dugout, but everything - fly balls included. Your other coaches may not have cared, but it is important to me that I see that on my team. If I don't see that out of you, I'll find somebody else who will hustle those out."

Then after the scrimmage I'd recap with everyone the expectations even during a scrimmage.

In terms of running due to someone making a mistake, again I hate that too. As a coach you see a mistake, you address the mistake. You implement measures to have it happen less often. Having people run to prevent mistakes does nothing to address those things.

3) Coaches having the team run during practice or scrimmage for conditioning is also absolutely stupid and a waste of time.

@cabbagedad posted:

I've heard the "running is stupid for baseball" and "running is stupid for punishment" arguments for years.  I'll counter.

1. I will agree that sprints are better than long runs for baseball.  That said, running (mostly sprints), agility and other cardio are still very useful.  True, a player isn't typically going to run very far during a game but lack of cardio conditioning shows up late in games and late in seasons often in the form of fatigue, injury and lack of energy.  All affect play.  One example - a fielder busts it a few times after balls in play defensively and then comes in and has a weak AB because he's still a bit winded.  Agility - quick first steps and good lateral movement make a difference in ways that I hope would be obvious.

2.  Let's assume for a minute that a good coach utilizes some combination of instruction, praise, encouragement, reward and yes, sometimes discipline/punishment.  Think about this.  When it is time for the latter and you have a team at the field, there just aren't that many options when you want to make the point and get back to the business at hand.  That's why running tends to be the go-to.

I would genuinely be interested in hearing better realistic solutions when discipline/punishment is in order under those circumstances.   

Running, sprinting, agility are all useful - when they're programmed properly.

How many coaches know that if you want to work on top speed, you need to be fully rested before the next rep? How many of them, instead, are having them run 60 yards, waiting a minute or two and going again?

How many coaches know how to program acceleration vs top end speed?

How many coaches know that if you want to work on these things, it would be best done at the start of practice (when fatigue isn't a factor), not at the middle or end?

How many coaches know how to blend this with what they're doing in the weight room?

If the answer to those is that they don't because it's not their area of expertise, then perhaps they shouldn't do those things. I'd argue that should be done outside of practice time (in the weight room), so they can focus on getting better on the field.

A lack of cardio or conditioning should be addressed in the weight room during a cardio session and not spent with a coach trying to guess if the player is running at an RPE 6 for 30 minutes, because again they're probably not going to get it right, and now the player is gassed (which isn't what should happen when working cardio) and has accumulated all this unnecessary fatigue.

I find it very interesting that the strongest objections that have been expressed in this thread come from people that aren’t, and never have been, coaches. (Little League doesn’t count in this case). Make of that what you will.

God help the LL coach who makes his players run suicides. The players moms would be at the League President's house within the hour and calling the local TV News investigation team an hour later.

@Francis7 posted:

God help the LL coach who makes his players run suicides. The players moms would be at the League President's house within the hour and calling the local TV News investigation team an hour later.

Ok Francis, wait  a minute.

May I remind you that you came here complaining about your son's college coach and now you are making fun of LL baseball moms?

Getting back to the original post I don’t see the need to debate whether sprints, long runs or poles are of value. Regardless of punishment there was one point intended. The coach was telling the players it’s his team and behavioral expectations will be a certain way. His way. Hustle shouldn’t be up for debate. - RJM

I was going to put together a response, but found the above very nicely summarizes my thoughts.  On the other hand, perhaps the coach was trying to help flush the kids' lactic acid.

Always good to see lots of activity.

When a situation like this arises, I would ask myself "what would Tommy Lasorda do?

Bob

When I think player punishment, I think of this twitter account...

I wonder how this conversation would play out south of the boarder? Oh wait, don't have to guess.

Rays make history with MLB's first all-Latino lineup on Roberto Clemente Day (msn.com)