Player Punishment

I don't support this type of punishment (embarrassment and team pressure), but I understand why so many coaches might use this approach.

It could have been a great teaching moment by explaining to the team as a group, then asking the player to meet him in his office after practice. At that point he can say what he wants in private.

JMO

When players advance to the college level bad habits are no longer tolerated. And discipline is a requirement. This is the message being sent (early in fall practice). The other players are right to be upset with the teammate that created the issue. Nobody has a right to be upset with the coach. It’s his program to run however he sees fit. Parents don’t get to pick and choose what parts of the program they like and the parts they don’t AFTER the fact. That screening is to be done during the recruiting process. Once a kid enrolls in school he is part of that program and his parents have endorsed that decision (and that program). At that point the HC will deal with “teaching moments” as they arise. They way he wants to. So you either get on board or you leave. There is no middle ground.
 

I think @TPM and @adbono both make valid points.  I, personally, in this day and age of kids with more peer pressure and higher anxiety, this is a stupid coaching move.  BUT I also think kids need to know what kind of coach they are committing to and that coach's style of coaching.  If you don't agree with it, then you shouldn't commit there. 

Francis;

Are there any pre-law majors on the TEAM? What was the temperature? Coaching 101 is gaining respect from your players.

Option: discuss your rules with the team and before the next practice have the "offending" player run "poles" in the outfield. This was the format for the local SRJC coach.

His team now includes 10 former players coaching or playing in the MLB.

Bob

As long as the discipline isn’t abusive a player has to accept what it is. Even if it’s abusive the only options are quit or transfer.

A friend’s son played for a coach everyone on this board knows his name. The guy has led his team to CWS championships. After losing a doubleheader to a mediocre team he made everyone run until the last player puked. That’s abusive.

In recruiting, how do you learn this kind of thing?  Is it just that if people call the coach "old-school" you can assume he might do things like this?  Does the recruit ask existing players about situations like this?

Absolutely, you ask the current and former players. Visit a practice.

The majority of College Coaches have a reputation [good, bad and indifferent].

Ask the question: why did the player not hustle? Is he is asking for attention.

Bob

Coaches can get their points across without punishing the entire team. That's why so many use their older, experienced players to help set the tone and some even enforce team rules.  Son was at Clemson under Jack Leggett. Jack was old school,  he got his point across without raising his voice and used many experienced players to give the advice, "you don't do that man".  IMO, the best coaches use their players to help enforce his rules.  Embarrassment is old school. These days you don't need to do that.  Coaches need to be real careful what they say or do. Even the ones who think its ok. You can have one AD one year and another the next.

Many coaches are young guys and want to keep their job.

I recently heard and was shocked about a HC of a pretty well known program, sounds familiar to the coach in RJMs story. Without going into detail, I understand why so many players went into the portal.

This is why  overnights on OV visits are helpful, mine was lucky one of his BF was already in the program. He was good with advice, because he was always getting in trouble! The coach also uses these visit to see if the player would fit in.

@TPM posted:

Coaches can get their points across without punishing the entire team.

If said player makes the same error in a game and because of that the team loses isn't the entire team punished? You are part of a team, and your action has consequences that effect that team, practice or game.

@TPM posted:

IMO, the best coaches use their players to help enforce his rules.

Presumably that is what the Charleston coach was doing, as discussed last month (although that was after a game):

https://community.hsbaseballwe...y-laced-team-meeting

Baseball dad

explain the error, was it  throwing, fielding, wet field, dry field, runners on, is his pitcher throwing sinkers, wind blowing in or out, home field?

These questions are answered in daily practice and from the player’s experience. “Teach the players to read the bat”.
Bob

@SomeBaseballDad posted:

If said player makes the same error in a game and because of that the team loses isn't the entire team punished? You are part of a team, and your action has consequences that effect that team, practice or game.

Players make errors all the time and that can lead to a  team's loss. Many times the errors are mental  mistakes. I have never seen a Coach punish a player or an entire team because of that but I have seen a coach use other methods to get the team's focus back on track.

Fall practice is for learning and correcting mistakes. Francis asked us what we felt was the best way to handle the situation, I gave my opinion, the entire team didn't have to be punished unless they all kind of stunk it up that day. It just creates animosity and dislike.

Is it stupid? Probably.

If the leaders on the team made it clear that type of effort isn't tolerated the coach wouldn't feel it necessary to have to do this. That doesn't happen enough anymore.

What should have happened? Probably a verbal beatdown followed by benching or running with the second string until he earned his way back.

I think running as a form of punishment is stupid. If he wanted to make somebody run while getting his point across he should have made his captains run while letting the rest of the team know why they're running.

@anotherparent posted:

Presumably that is what the Charleston coach was doing, as discussed last month (although that was after a game):

https://community.hsbaseballwe...y-laced-team-meeting

Not understanding how his profanity laced rant involved players enforcing the rules???

In the article, it says that the complaint about the coach alleged that he was encouraging team members to physically beat up players who didn't conform.

@PABaseball posted:

I think running as a form of punishment is stupid.

I agree.

What I don't get, how can a player make it on a college roster and not realize when you hit a fly ball, you need to run it out!

@anotherparent posted:

In the article, it says that the complaint about the coach alleged that he was encouraging team members to physically beat up players who didn't conform.

Oh ok. That was down right bad, promoting violence. Is that what you think Francis7's coach was trying to do? 

The point would be that, as you suggest, players (and especially captains) should be keeping each other up to standards, but there could be a slippery slope about how that is done.  Making only the captains run doesn't seem like a good idea, though.  I don't know what Francis7's coach was thinking.

I’m not a fan of punishment for mental or physical errors. These should be teaching moments. Laziness is something that shouldn’t be tolerated. I personally feel situations where a player fails to hustle should result in reduced playing time or reps in practice. Either they figure it out or don’t play.

There is no way I believe that the coach in the article was promoting violence. I don’t care what was written. My suspicion is that the article is based on someone’s interpretation of the events. Most likely someone that has no experience with athletic competition at the college level.

@adbono posted:

There is no way I believe that the coach in the article was promoting violence. I don’t care what was written. My suspicion is that the article is based on someone’s interpretation of the events. Most likely someone that has no experience with athletic competition at the college level.

I don't believe that the coach did it to promote violence.

Few thoughts.

1) Francis, your kid plays at a very good program. What are they in week 2 of practice? Don't worry about it.

2) A parent or anyone else can feel anyway they like saying they don't have a right to feel a certain way is silly. How you/they react and respond is what matters and I think there are certain situations that unless you've been in them, you really can't say how'd you'd respond. Me personally I think anything short of physical/physiological abuse, they are in college now, they need to deal with it.

3) As much research as a family can do, you can't and won't learn everything. How many coaching changes were there this off season? This is what it is, and I think in a lot of situations if a parent started showing up at practices (because it'll take more than one) that would likely be a red flag to a lot of coaches.

@nycdad - 40% of the roster is freshman and transfers. My guess is that the coach wants to make an impression that there's zero tolerance for anything below expectations. It's been three weeks. I told my son to give it time. I doubt this will be going on by the spring.

We have two HS in my town. Both coaches are different. Our coach sort of gave the "stars" a lot of wiggle room on things. The other coach made kids run poles. The whole team. Catchers ran in full gear. They ran poles for an hour at the end of every practice. They ran poles after every game - home or road, win or lose. Everyone ran, studs and scrubs.

My son always said, if he played for the other coach, he would have quit. "That's not baseball." And I suspect he would have quit.

So, this is a new situation for him. They had to run again the day after the fly ball suicides because of something else in the intrasquad that day.

Maybe I'm wrong and this will be going on longer than I think? FWIW, the program doesn't have a history of a lot of freshman transferring out. Most freshman return and those who don't are usually cuts. And, again, it's very few.

It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few weeks.

No, it won’t happen in the spring. The players who caused the problem better be aware they’ve already made a poor impression and are on a short leash. You don’t get a second chance to make a first impression.

In the spring ask your son if the players who were the problem in the fall are on the roster.

Speed and agility training shouldn't be a punishment. It should be a normal part of the training program. Everything in baseball is better if it's done with more speed and agility.

Running (more like jogging) poles is different. That's just a waste of precious practice time that could be spent on getting better at baseball.

@nycdad posted:

Few thoughts.

1) Francis, your kid plays at a very good program. What are they in week 2 of practice? Don't worry about it.

2) A parent or anyone else can feel anyway they like saying they don't have a right to feel a certain way is silly. How you/they react and respond is what matters and I think there are certain situations that unless you've been in them, you really can't say how'd you'd respond. Me personally I think anything short of physical/physiological abuse, they are in college now, they need to deal with it.

3) As much research as a family can do, you can't and won't learn everything. How many coaching changes were there this off season? This is what it is, and I think in a lot of situations if a parent started showing up at practices (because it'll take more than one) that would likely be a red flag to a lot of coaches.

I love Francis' posts, but you know that isn't happening.

@russinfortworth - I'm really not. Bigger fish to fry these days. I'm leaving the toy department stuff in the playroom and moving on. This ain't 8u anymore.

I see things a bit differently than what many have stated here.  My take is the coach is sending two messages when he does this.  1. - Not giving full effort is not tolerated.  2. - Not giving full effort affects the whole team.  Pretty straight forward. 

IMO, there is still a place for some old school principals.

I agree with cabbagedad.  Failing to hustle is one thing that is completely within the player's control and is also something that affects the whole team.  The offending player needs to understand that his actions won't be tolerated by the coach or his teammates.  It may be considered old school, but having all the players run  (and be pissed at the offender) is a tried and true way of reducing the chance of it happening in the future. 

@auberon posted:

Speed and agility training shouldn't be a punishment. It should be a normal part of the training program. Everything in baseball is better if it's done with more speed and agility.

Running (more like jogging) poles is different. That's just a waste of precious practice time that could be spent on getting better at baseball.

How much speed and agility is necessary for a game that requires you to run a maximum of 360 feet during any point of the game? How much do suicides help with speed?

It was done with the sole purpose of pissing the players off and making a point.

@PABaseball posted:

I think running as a form of punishment is stupid.

Yeah, making players understand that actions have consequences while adding some conditioning is stupid.

3rd through 5th grade the kid played travel basketball on a team whose coach was, honestly, over the top. They ran killers when mistakes were made. 5th grade season making a mistake got you a seat on a chair while everyone else ran killers. I don't think they liked it, it just was what it was. They did like winning, and they won a lot. I can't tell you how many times, after finding out I was a dad, people told me we weren't the most talented team in the tournament, but we were the most disciplined. These were what, 8 to 10 yr old kids, and we're talking 18+. Dam man you all are rasing some soft kids.

@SomeBaseballDad posted:

Yeah, making players understand that actions have consequences while adding some conditioning is stupid.

3rd through 5th grade the kid played travel basketball on a team whose coach was, honestly, over the top. They ran killers when mistakes were made. 5th grade season making a mistake got you a seat on a chair while everyone else ran killers. I don't think they liked it, it just was what it was. They did like winning, and they won a lot. I can't tell you how many times, after finding out I was a dad, people told me we weren't the most talented team in the tournament, but we were the most disciplined. These were what, 8 to 10 yr old kids, and we're talking 18+. Dam man you all are rasing some soft kids.

Did I say it was too hard or that it was stupid? Yeah let's run suicides and whip these kids into shape with conditioning so they can run a whole 90 feet before not doing it again for another hour.

Baseball isn't an endurance sport unless you're a SP. You want your soccer, lacrosse, football, 5th grade basketball teams to run? Be my guest. But don't pretend that some suicides after a scrimmage are going to condition the 7.7 runners into becoming base stealers.

The 5th grade basketball anecdote reads like an Onion article.

@PABaseball posted:

The 5th grade basketball anecdote reads like an Onion article.

Sitting here thinking about it I had to call the kid. Just got off the phone with him. If it makes you feel better to insinuate I'm a liar rock on. The kid and I had a good laugh over, gasp, grown men having to run.

@SomeBaseballDad posted:

If it makes you feel better to insinuate I'm a liar rock on. The kid and I had a good laugh over, gasp, grown men having to run.

I don't think you're lying. The idea of 8 year olds running suicides for discipline is just something straight out of a satire blog or a tweet from Three Year Letterman

Sadly I wish SBD's example was a one off story, but I've seen and heard from other preteen teams. Very sad.

@PABaseball posted:

I don't think you're lying. The idea of 8 year olds running suicides for discipline is just something straight out of a satire blog or a tweet from Three Year Letterman

I'm sure those kids weren't happy in the moment. They look pretty happy in that picture.

God forbid you teach young men that hard work just might pay off.

I lean very very very heavily to the "running poles is physically useless, and probably detrimental to their performance" crowd. And I get that it sounds bad for a youth coach to do it, and most of us know better but yeah they'll be ok. As will Francis's team. If it were the norm, that's a different story IMO.

Has anyone watched the Korean HS practice?
Bob

Since the topic is veering off course …

I’m always amused when discipline of preteens is referred to as turning them into young men.They’re prepubescent preteens. Any preteen travel team in any sport should be approached as advanced rec ball.

I coached preteen baseball, softball and basketball travel teams. I never had to discipline them. A handful time times I had to tell them to reign in the focus. But this is normal for preteens.

Getting back to the original post I don’t see the need to debate whether sprints, long runs or poles are of value. Regardless of punishment there was one point intended. The coach was telling the players it’s his team and behavioral expectations will be a certain way. His way. Hustle shouldn’t be up for debate.