It really is very simple--the kid who wants it and is confident will stick it our and make it work---the kid who cannot cope with not starting, geez did he start on HS varsity as a frosh?, will not make it. Egos need to be parked at the entrance door !
In my eyes it is not the parents assessment of talent that is involved here---it is the talent and desire of the player that makes it click. Obviously the boy has talent if he has a scholarship but does he have that special desire to compete and win that starting spot
Keep in mind also that many kids are playing college ball just to satisfy mommy and daddy and their desires---we had a kid at one of our events this summer who told my coaches that he was there only to make daddy happy--he didnt even want to play ball in college. Kids like this evaporate rapidly in the fall
TR:
There are lots of situations and lots of reasons why certain players make it and others don't. A lot of it has to do with "fit", which cannot always be readily determined ahead of time, despite great efforts to do just that.
But, I must say, most parents I know have done a great job with their sons and really don't deserve broad derision any more than operators of showcases deserve derision.
Most folks are simply trying to do what they believe to be best for their sons and nothing more or less. Some just happen to be better at it than others.
The other part is this: College baseball is great, but if and when it does not work out, it is not the end of the world or even that big of a deal. Some of those kids actually have a positive impact on society in the end as doctors and lawyers and businessmen and mothers and fathers etc....
There are lots of situations and lots of reasons why certain players make it and others don't. A lot of it has to do with "fit", which cannot always be readily determined ahead of time, despite great efforts to do just that.
But, I must say, most parents I know have done a great job with their sons and really don't deserve broad derision any more than operators of showcases deserve derision.
Most folks are simply trying to do what they believe to be best for their sons and nothing more or less. Some just happen to be better at it than others.
The other part is this: College baseball is great, but if and when it does not work out, it is not the end of the world or even that big of a deal. Some of those kids actually have a positive impact on society in the end as doctors and lawyers and businessmen and mothers and fathers etc....
quote:But, I must say, most parents I know have done a great job with their sons and really don't deserve broad derision any more than operators of showcases deserve derision.
You got it all wrong. Parents are idiots. Coaches get the kids scholarships.
If the truth be known, kids earn scholarships. It flat creeps parents out when folks sprain their elbows patting themselves on the back when a player gets a ride. I see it all the time though.
jemaz
Wherein do you read derision ?
Wherein do you read derision ?
TR:
Not a big deal, but the mommy and daddy part did not strike me as a voice of support. But I understand that I could be misinterpreting that.
jem
Not a big deal, but the mommy and daddy part did not strike me as a voice of support. But I understand that I could be misinterpreting that.
jem
jemaz
That is fact--it happens
Not knocking parents but facts are facts--it happens
That is fact--it happens
Not knocking parents but facts are facts--it happens
Wonderful topic that can be summarized as follows:
That isn't the case in HS. I can't recall a single kid dropping off our HS team other than by being cut or getting nearly zero playing time the first two years. Apparently just about every kid on our team is CRAZY about baseball.
Of course HS players almost never transfer schools to get more playing time. None of ours has dropped out.
I can see some of our HS players still interested in playing the game at age 100.
So what does college do to these kids that so many quit for good in a year or two???????????????
.
quote:Why do college teams have so many freshmen and so few seniors?
That isn't the case in HS. I can't recall a single kid dropping off our HS team other than by being cut or getting nearly zero playing time the first two years. Apparently just about every kid on our team is CRAZY about baseball.
Of course HS players almost never transfer schools to get more playing time. None of ours has dropped out.
I can see some of our HS players still interested in playing the game at age 100.
So what does college do to these kids that so many quit for good in a year or two???????????????
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quote:Originally posted by micdsguy:
So what does college do to these kids that so many quit for good in a year or two??????????????? .
The reasons are many of the ones listed by FormerObserver in one of the first responses.
In college, the coach doesn't care a whole lot about keeping kids happy by playing them...certainly much less so than in HS. Most college rosters are 32-40 players in size...all HS stars. Beyond #20, not many will play, if at all. The bottom 10-15 players at some point may decide that the commitment is not worth the interference with their social life and/or academics. Some will quit, some will transfer. Not many of that group of 10-15 will sit on the bench all 4 years and be happy with it.
Lots of good points here. Thanks to everyone.
I was just comparing from year to year (guys who actually played) and then left. I know the fall cuts happen as well.
And I have googled the ones who left, to find out what happened, finding only a few.
Someone mentioned going where you are wanted, but what we are experiencing is coaches playing texas hold'em with their real thoughts on your talent in order to manage your expectations about scholarship money. This makes it more difficult to figure out if they want you, need you, or are just finding a breathing body. I guess the scholarship offer you get speaks the most about how much they want you. But you always hear from coaches about how they only get 11.7 and this is all they have to give you.
One other thought, I've heard coaches try to balance playing their investments (high scholly players) with winning. In the end, I think winning wins, but if you are on a low scholarship you may have limited chances in the beginning.
I was just comparing from year to year (guys who actually played) and then left. I know the fall cuts happen as well.
And I have googled the ones who left, to find out what happened, finding only a few.
Someone mentioned going where you are wanted, but what we are experiencing is coaches playing texas hold'em with their real thoughts on your talent in order to manage your expectations about scholarship money. This makes it more difficult to figure out if they want you, need you, or are just finding a breathing body. I guess the scholarship offer you get speaks the most about how much they want you. But you always hear from coaches about how they only get 11.7 and this is all they have to give you.
One other thought, I've heard coaches try to balance playing their investments (high scholly players) with winning. In the end, I think winning wins, but if you are on a low scholarship you may have limited chances in the beginning.
quote:coaches playing texas hold'em with their real thoughts on your talent in order to manage your expectations about scholarship money
GSF,
that really IS a great way to describe that part of the recruiting process - keep in mind that other players that he's recruiting aren't showing all their cards either
with his recruit list it's a big table and as the "hand" plays out more cards will be on the table for all sides to gain info to make decisions, some players will "fold" & commit to other schools
but as long the coach doesn't "fold" on you and go to another table, you're still in the game
if a parents accessment of talent & desire to advise in finding the fit is a hinderance, why are we all here??
Just my opinion, but FIT really isn't as hard to decifer as some folks seem to think.
If a coach is REALLY excited to have you on his team you will KNOW it. He won't play games with you.
Now, on the other hand if the coach REALLY wants you on his team, but could EASILY replace you with a half a dozen other kids of like talent, then YES, he may very well play head games with you over scholarship money.
That in itself should tell you volumes.
You have to listen to what they say - you also have to listen to what they don't say.
If a coach is REALLY excited to have you on his team you will KNOW it. He won't play games with you.
Now, on the other hand if the coach REALLY wants you on his team, but could EASILY replace you with a half a dozen other kids of like talent, then YES, he may very well play head games with you over scholarship money.
That in itself should tell you volumes.
You have to listen to what they say - you also have to listen to what they don't say.
quote:but if you are on a low scholarship you may have limited chances in the beginning.
quote:Now, on the other hand if the coach REALLY wants you on his team, but could EASILY replace you with a half a dozen other kids of like talent, then YES, he may very well play head games with you over scholarship money.
quote:If a coach is REALLY excited to have you on his team you will KNOW it.
Grandslam, if it makes you feel any better, this is all so much easier understood AFTER you have been through it, and difficult to see any logic while you are on the way in.
If the average scholarship is 33%, then I think they are all low. So, more than 33% is high. Not more than 2,3-4 on the team with more than 50%.
My observation is that the amount they have "invested" really doesn't affect whether a player makes the team or not. But, they ususally don't miss on the kids they "invest" a higher amount, so it may SEEM that those players have "less risk". Not so, in my opinion.
Once you are one of the players on the fall try out team, you have a "chance" that no one else has.
The "chances" of playing at a major D1 university are just low.
So, when they offer you a "low" amount, I think that's still an indication that you are being given a "chance".
My son is fortunate to have an "above average" amount, but I think his "chance" of making the team are only slighly better because the coach knows how he has performed in the past.
An above average offer is ONLY and INDICATION of that players "chance" to make the team.
I think it is affected more by the "market" price and what it takes to pull a player from one school and away from another.
Very fun and intereting thread certainly influenced by perspective.
Some of you may be interested in checking out how many sophomores are returning to the schools they committed to as freshman. Here is a good starting point: Signing list compiled by PG Wood Bat
Reality is college scholarship money is ridiculous. Most of the players play for the love of the game while the universities and coaches make a bunch of money. You don’t see this kind of turnover of players in football or basketball. Why? Full scholarship money.
Grandslamfan...seems that you are now "2 for 2" in starting interesting and active topics ! 
Thanks for keeping the board lively!
Thanks for keeping the board lively!
I am lucky to have a circle of baseball parent friends going through the same thing right now. These are the questions we debate daily. I have a pretty good assessment of my sons talent from independent, unrelated sources. I do not wear rose colored glasses.
We all are trying to be realistic and find a good fit. I LOVE all your feedback. I think I am getting it (finally)
One more comment about baseball as a business...
This could start a whole new thread...
It is a business, but that does not excuse coaches for unethical behavior. There are right and wrong ways to behave. Baseball business or any other kind of business. I am sick of people excusing coaches behavior as "it's a business".
We all are trying to be realistic and find a good fit. I LOVE all your feedback. I think I am getting it (finally)
One more comment about baseball as a business...
This could start a whole new thread...
It is a business, but that does not excuse coaches for unethical behavior. There are right and wrong ways to behave. Baseball business or any other kind of business. I am sick of people excusing coaches behavior as "it's a business".
quote:Originally posted by grandslamfan:
If you check out the rosters of teams in the top conferences you will notice players missing from year to year. They weren't seniors, they weren't drafted, they weren't injured. I know some transfer, but what happens to the rest? Are they cut from the team? (Does this free up scholarship money) Do they stay at the school as a regular student (paying full price)?
I checked out just 2 ACC schools and they had about 14-16 new players in the years I checked out. (one had - 11 early signs, 1 late sign and 4 jc xfers) and only lost 10 (seniors and drafted jrs) What happened to the other 6?
I just want to have my son understand the risks of playing in the "top" conferences. (I know you need to ask what normally happens to a players scholarship from year to year.)
About a year or two ago we had a thread that was similar to this one, and many of us who have gone through the process gave our opinions on what school to choose. I have gone through the process twice, and my advice is to go where you are wanted. The scholarship offered is a good guide to how much you are wanted. The stories given by the coaches and how they are hamstrung with only 11.7 is their problem. Our problem is our kid and "how much do you want him?".Once you get there, unless something drastic happens, stay there and get your degree.
They key thing that happens when a youngster transfers is the possibility of not having credits that transfer with him. If you stay at one school, you won't have that problem. If you are going to school just to play baseball, then don't pay any attention to what I am saying, as it won't matter if you transfer or not. My observation has been that there are more scholarship guys that transfer than walk ons who do. The reason is that the walk on is there to go to school and the scholarship guy will leave because he got beat out of a starting job. This will be the 8th year that I have had a son in school on scholarship, and that is what I have noticed in the 8 years.
BB Scout I agree with you 100%.
Grandslamfan I agree with you as well. Not all large DI schools behave in the manner that has been talked about. I told you about one DI school during a chat that I would not send my son to - I have been told exactly what you say. "It's a business". Well, I wouldn't want to work for certain employers that exhibit certain behaviors neither! I understand they have pressures, expectations, money, etc. to deal with, but they also have human beings to deal with. I wanted my son to go where he was respected as player and person!
Grandslamfan I agree with you as well. Not all large DI schools behave in the manner that has been talked about. I told you about one DI school during a chat that I would not send my son to - I have been told exactly what you say. "It's a business". Well, I wouldn't want to work for certain employers that exhibit certain behaviors neither! I understand they have pressures, expectations, money, etc. to deal with, but they also have human beings to deal with. I wanted my son to go where he was respected as player and person!
bbscout....good post!
Some players transfer because that is what their parents think they should do; it isn't always the kid who wants to do so.
I would say to those of you who believe that college baseball coaches are making a bunch of money, or that they make unethical decisions because it is a business.... There is not a large percentage of college baseball coaches making large amounts of money, and if you compare it to football and both men's and women's basketball coaches, baseball coaches' salaries are much smaller. Coaches coach because they love coaching baseball, not because of the huge salaries.
I do realize, that when talking about any population, that there are exceptions.
Some players transfer because that is what their parents think they should do; it isn't always the kid who wants to do so.
I would say to those of you who believe that college baseball coaches are making a bunch of money, or that they make unethical decisions because it is a business.... There is not a large percentage of college baseball coaches making large amounts of money, and if you compare it to football and both men's and women's basketball coaches, baseball coaches' salaries are much smaller. Coaches coach because they love coaching baseball, not because of the huge salaries.
I do realize, that when talking about any population, that there are exceptions.
Grateful, I hope my post didn't sound like I thought that there are HUGE numbers of coaches that play games that I and many others would consider unethical. I don't - I just know that there are some out there. I've met some. However,the best part of the recruiting process when I look back are the coaches that we met during son's journey. Like I said before, most parents can identify the programs that have issues if they just do their research.