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Thanks baseballmom.

With our younger son we formed a pseudo-travel/club team out of the best players in the rec league at age 10.  The primary purpose was NOT to create future college players (4 did end up at some level of college), but the purpose was to keep kids playing in their rec league with friends rather than get sucked into the full blown travel circuit.  We adjusted the pitching rules in the league to protect their arms, played some games on Sunday afternoons against other area teams, and went to a small handful of tournaments.

Within that team, which had great success (whatever that is for 10-year olds?, but lets just say they won a lot of games and had fun), and they wanted to continue to play in the Fall.  So we told the players that in the Fall and Winter, we would keep practicing and play a handful of games/tournaments, but they should go ahead and play soccer, basketball, football, etc... as a first priority and we'd let them play when they showed up on weekends.

We had one player in particular who was apparently a very good soccer player - for sure he was a good athlete.  He didn't come to many baseball events in the Fall, but when he returned to this pseudo-club baseball team in the Spring...he had made more strides as an athlete overall than those that  who stuck with only baseball.  He was noticeably faster, more agile, better athletic motions...in other words it helped him a great deal.

He later gave up soccer (in part due to a nut job soccer coach), was a HS  baseball star and played baseball at Pepperdine.

I guess I could tell a few more similar stories like the kid on that same team whose dad freaked out trying to train a future major leaguer, did nothing but baseball and burned out his kids arm prancing him out to every travel team in the area...but it would get boring.  Main point is, the story linked above is pretty accurate in my narrow experiences.  Its worth thinking hard about if you have young kids.

And yes, the book Range will explain a lot of it to you....

Last edited by justbaseball

It's kind of impossible in the Midwest to "play" year round.  Unless you spend all winter travelling to warm weather states, and even then there aren't really events to do every weekend.

I suppose if you combined college camps with various showcases and were willing to really spend on travel you could figure out a way to play every single weekend, but who does that?

It is certainly possible to train year round.  Most top athletes train year round.  Take a few weeks off here & there.  I do recommend taking 2-3 continuous months off from throwing every year...

When my son was younger he played flag football, basketball, ultimate frisbee, and Baseball.  He was a "multiple sport" athlete up through 8th grade.  

I literally cannot think of a single ballplayer from Wisconsin who has played Baseball "year round", including the multiple players who have gone on to pro ball recently (Gavin Lux, Jarred Kelenic, Ben Rortvedt, etc)

My son played youth ball in the late 90's and early 2000's. Travel/Select ball really did not exist at the time to the extent that it dominates today. He played LL up till age 13, then on two rec programs from age 13-15 and then Legion ball from 16 till college. Once in HS he played Fall ball with the kids he went to HS with, but that was one game on he weekend for about 6-8 weeks.  When he was 16/17 he did the JO program in Arizona which was a luxury.

My benchmark as a parent was 200 AB's a year. With all forms of ball that was 40-50 games tops. That was more than enough. 

I am doubtful that if he was doing it all over again today, he would of not played baseball. It is just too expensive.

I have seen a lot of baseball over the last 20-years. The kids that play all the time are no better than the kids my son played with 20-years ago. The only difference is the parents believe that there kids are all D1/Pro prospects because they have been playing select ball since they were 5-years old.

My son finished college in 2010 and I doubt he has been to more than 5-games since college. But he is now a scratch golfer, a game that he took up at age 12 when he was not playing baseball.

3and2Fastball posted:

I would say that kids are way better than they were 20 years ago.

20 years ago if you threw 90 you were pretty much guaranteed a Power 5 spot.  Nowadays 90 mph is a meatball for the top flight players... 

Maybe...but I watch around 40 Triple-A games a year from behind home plate...lots of kids throwing 95 getting lit up because they don't know how to "pitch."  Sometimes I think "pitching" is a dying art in the race to light up a radar gun.

BTW, sometimes I think hitting is a dying art too - I see lots of robotic kids doing things at the plate as if they were stamped out by the same hitting instructor over and over....

Last edited by justbaseball
justbaseball posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

I would say that kids are way better than they were 20 years ago.

20 years ago if you threw 90 you were pretty much guaranteed a Power 5 spot.  Nowadays 90 mph is a meatball for the top flight players... 

Maybe...but I watch around 40 Triple-A games a year from behind home plate...lots of kids throwing 95 getting lit up because they don't know how to "pitch."  Sometimes I think "pitching" is a dying art in the race to light up a radar gun.

I would tend to agree with that in terms of pitching being a dying art ... Although I think that will come back around as Spin Rate & tracking pitching movement will become more & more part of "measureables"

Look at the flip side of what you are saying, though:  AAA hitters are routinely squaring up 95 mph pitches.  20 years ago, hitters did not do that as frequently.  

 

I read Range. Good book.

What all of these articles and opinions leave out is: when?  Playing multiple sports is awesome, IMO. But you don't see too many college athletes doing it while they are in college. My personal opinion is multiple sports through 13 or 14, and then if a kid wants to specialize in a single sport, fine (and if he or she doesn't want to specialize, also fine). But that's just my opinion.

Range spends a lot of time on Roger Federer, who is highlighted as a prime example of the benefits of playing multiple sports. It is true he played lots of sports as a young child. But starting at age 12, he concentrated only on tennis: "He played football until the age of twelve, when he decided to focus solely on tennis. At fourteen, he became the national champion of all groups in Switzerland and was chosen to train at the Swiss National Tennis Centerhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/...Federer_junior_years

And that is fine, in my opinion -- because that's what he wanted to do. What Range argues against is training young children in a single sport or activity, the way Tiger Woods trained in golf from age 2, or the Polgar sisters trained in chess from early ages. It does not argue against specializing as a teenager.

I have yet to see an explanation of why it's perfectly OK for an 18-year-old college freshman to specialize in a single sport, but a sign of the downfall of civilization for a 16-year-old high school junior or 17-year-old high school senior to do so.

justbaseball posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

I would say that kids are way better than they were 20 years ago.

20 years ago if you threw 90 you were pretty much guaranteed a Power 5 spot.  Nowadays 90 mph is a meatball for the top flight players... 

Maybe...but I watch around 40 Triple-A games a year from behind home plate...lots of kids throwing 95 getting lit up because they don't know how to "pitch."  Sometimes I think "pitching" is a dying art in the race to light up a radar gun.

BTW, sometimes I think hitting is a dying art too - I see lots of robotic kids doing things at the plate as if they were stamped out by the same hitting instructor over and over....

Rob Deer would fit right into today’s game.

@2019Dad- Also read, and agreed its compelling.  I have given this a lot of thought, and think the Federer case ultimately makes more sense.  My older son played a lot of different sports before discovering wrestling in 8th grade.  Even then, he took a few years and didn't FULLY commit to the sport until Junior year.  He ended up a preferred walk on in a D1 program, but in retrospect he feels he was probably a year late on that front.  So the timing IS a part of it.  He absolutely benefited from baseball, tennis, and soccer.  But the technical components of wrestling likely required one more year of knowledge and full practice for him to have challenged for a state championship.

My younger son is a pitcher and I'd say something of a hybrid model between the two schools. He has pitched since he was a pup.  Never all year, never over doing it.  But certainly has been repeating a version of pitching mechanics since he was young.  He has also participated in many other sports including basketball, tennis, and wrestling.  So he's used a lot of different muscles, different hand-eye coordination etc.  But now, he's back to truly focusing and training on pitching year round.  That's the thing that he has a real chance to compete in at the nexts level, so as a 16yr old rising Jr, that's his complete focus.  Don't see how that can hurt if you limit the actual throwing.  If anything it's pretty clear he needs to train to hit the velo threshold necessary for that level consideration.  He can pitch his ass off, but the velo threshold is the velo threshold and that requires full commitment to get to that number consistently. 

 

RJM posted:
justbaseball posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

I would say that kids are way better than they were 20 years ago.

20 years ago if you threw 90 you were pretty much guaranteed a Power 5 spot.  Nowadays 90 mph is a meatball for the top flight players... 

Maybe...but I watch around 40 Triple-A games a year from behind home plate...lots of kids throwing 95 getting lit up because they don't know how to "pitch."  Sometimes I think "pitching" is a dying art in the race to light up a radar gun.

BTW, sometimes I think hitting is a dying art too - I see lots of robotic kids doing things at the plate as if they were stamped out by the same hitting instructor over and over....

Rob Deer would fit right into today’s game.

Rob Deer, geez, that's quite a pull, RJM.  Watched him kill it in Fresno in '81.  33 dings, 100+ RBI in single A  

I think it is how you deal with it.  My second son played year round from 12-18.  Played three sports and started varsity all three for four years and still played year round baseball.  He would play every play on Friday night and go play baseball on Saturday.  

Youngest son has been pitching since he was 6.  Played year round from 6 until now and also started varsity all four years in three sports.  When I wrote this just now I realized he still is.  He played spring with High School, played this summer and now is doing fall ball with his P5 college so he is still year round.  It will probably not end until he is done with baseball since they are already discussing his summer ball options next year so he will play this spring, summer and then again in fall. 

So if it is so bad why does every college player do it?

While I think (and many scouts and MLB players would agree) that its not a particularly good idea even in college, playing year-round in college is quite different than an 8-14 year old.

Very few MLB players go year-round like a college player.  An exception would be Winter Ball.  Our two sons who both played college and pro ball (one MLB), would not pick up a baseball between end of season (Sept/Oct) and January once they were pros.  Pretty different schedule than a college guy who often does go year-round.

cabbagedad posted:
RJM posted:
justbaseball posted:
3and2Fastball posted:

I would say that kids are way better than they were 20 years ago.

20 years ago if you threw 90 you were pretty much guaranteed a Power 5 spot.  Nowadays 90 mph is a meatball for the top flight players... 

Maybe...but I watch around 40 Triple-A games a year from behind home plate...lots of kids throwing 95 getting lit up because they don't know how to "pitch."  Sometimes I think "pitching" is a dying art in the race to light up a radar gun.

BTW, sometimes I think hitting is a dying art too - I see lots of robotic kids doing things at the plate as if they were stamped out by the same hitting instructor over and over....

Rob Deer would fit right into today’s game.

Rob Deer, geez, that's quite a pull, RJM.  Watched him kill it in Fresno in '81.  33 dings, 100+ RBI in single A  

Here’s the Rib Deer I had in mind ...

https://www.baseball-reference...ers/d/deerro01.shtml

RJM posted:
cabbagedad posted:
 

Rob Deer would fit right into today’s game.

Rob Deer, geez, that's quite a pull, RJM.  Watched him kill it in Fresno in '81.  33 dings, 100+ RBI in single A  

Here’s the Rib Deer I had in mind ...

https://www.baseball-reference...ers/d/deerro01.shtml

Yup, same.  Yeah, I know he went on to hit his share of long balls in the bigs, per your comment, but he was on a pretty crazy tear that year and in his subsequent minors years.   Just a name you never hear much and funny you brought him up.  I know that was kind of the point.

Last edited by cabbagedad

A few years after my son started playing in LL he joined a local travel team.   Local as in most games (doubleheaders on Saturdays) were within 100 miles of home with a few select tournaments once a month.  Usually took a mid summer break before playing in the fall.   Fall schedule was much lighter with only 2-3 tournaments and weekend doubleheaders.   Then a break from November to March.   Pretty much kept this schedule until he made varsity.  The state purpose of the team was to prepare them for HS ball.  Most went on to play varsity for their respective schools.

While on Varsity (20 game schedule from March to May)) he would play Legion (20-40 games) over the summer with a short break in August.   Then a local fall league (5 inning doubleheaders on weekends) which usually ended by November.   Kept this schedule until college (JuCo).   Even in JuCo they played a brief fall schedule (15-20 games) then a full 56 game schedule in the spring.

In short, he never really played "year round".

FoxDad posted:

A few years after my son started playing in LL he joined a local travel team.   Local as in most games (doubleheaders on Saturdays) were within 100 miles of home with a few select tournaments once a month.  Usually took a mid summer break before playing in the fall.   Fall schedule was much lighter with only 2-3 tournaments and weekend doubleheaders.   Then a break from November to March.   Pretty much kept this schedule until he made varsity.  The state purpose of the team was to prepare them for HS ball.  Most went on to play varsity for their respective schools.

While on Varsity (20 game schedule from March to May)) he would play Legion (20-40 games) over the summer with a short break in August.   Then a local fall league (5 inning doubleheaders on weekends) which usually ended by November.   Kept this schedule until college (JuCo).   Even in JuCo they played a brief fall schedule (15-20 games) then a full 56 game schedule in the spring.

In short, he never really played "year round".

How is that not year round?  He played March through November which means he started practice in February.  I consider that year round.

cabbagedad posted:
RJM posted:
cabbagedad posted:
 

Rob Deer would fit right into today’s game.

Rob Deer, geez, that's quite a pull, RJM.  Watched him kill it in Fresno in '81.  33 dings, 100+ RBI in single A  

Here’s the Rib Deer I had in mind ...

https://www.baseball-reference...ers/d/deerro01.shtml

Yup, same.  Yeah, I know he went on to hit his share of long balls in the bigs, per your comment, but he was on a pretty crazy tear that year and in his subsequent minors years.   Just a name you never hear much and funny you brought him up.  I know that was kind of the point.

Wow.. I'm surprised he had 43 SBs

PitchingFan posted:
FoxDad posted:

A few years after my son started playing in LL he joined a local travel team.   Local as in most games (doubleheaders on Saturdays) were within 100 miles of home with a few select tournaments once a month.  Usually took a mid summer break before playing in the fall.   Fall schedule was much lighter with only 2-3 tournaments and weekend doubleheaders.   Then a break from November to March.   Pretty much kept this schedule until he made varsity.  The state purpose of the team was to prepare them for HS ball.  Most went on to play varsity for their respective schools.

While on Varsity (20 game schedule from March to May)) he would play Legion (20-40 games) over the summer with a short break in August.   Then a local fall league (5 inning doubleheaders on weekends) which usually ended by November.   Kept this schedule until college (JuCo).   Even in JuCo they played a brief fall schedule (15-20 games) then a full 56 game schedule in the spring.

In short, he never really played "year round".

How is that not year round?  He played March through November which means he started practice in February.  I consider that year round.

And from November to February is 3-4 months of not playing or practicing ball ( working out in the weight room, yes, but not on the field).   Three months is 25% of the year.  I hardly call that 'year round'.   That doesn't include the short break between summer and fall ball (usually a month).  Guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

I understand but that is what everybody calls "year round" baseball.  I don't anyone who plays a full 12 months of the year.  When people say they don't play "year round" they are referring to just spring, or spring and summer, or spring and fall.  Anyone who plays all three seasons is considered year round.  Not trying to get in an argument just stating that when people say "year round" they are referring to the same thing you stated.  Almost everybody takes off between summer and fall ball.  If you are arguing that the schedule you laid out is not really year round I will agree to it but just stating that when people use the phrase "year round" they are referring to playing all three seasons.  My contention is that almost all college plays "year round" and most MLB players also do and most top MLB players did when they were kids.  I know there are the exceptions but I think they are just that, exceptions. 

I agree. But - there are worse things a kid could be doing right? Do skate boarders take time off and do other sports? How about fishing? How about other hobbies that kids are involved with? Do we tell kids "That's enough fishing and hunting for you. You need other hobbies." Bowling? Chess? 

Or we could use that extra time to play video games? I agree. Expose your kid to other activities. Other sports. What happens when there is simply no interest in doing anything else? Force it on them? Can we tone it down? Can we get them interested in other things? Sure we can. 

Maybe it's the parent that has decided if their kid plays enough games year round and plays on enough teams year round they will have an advantage down the road? Maybe it stops being something fun to do way too early? 

If the kid is the driving force behind it. If he just loves it so much and is driven to be really good at it. Maybe if the parent can just stay the parent and not allow themselves to become like the child they can properly manage it while still allowing the kid to chase his love? 

I wish more kids were willing to dedicate themselves to something that required dedication, hard work, perseverance, team work, etc. I would gladly work to ensure they didn't over do it. I would take that anytime over the ones that can't get outside for 10 minutes or take their eyes off their phone for 5. Kids who have no idea what it means to put in work and drive for something. 

Again I agree. But be careful. A kid who is driven to achieve and willing to do what it takes can take that to life when the game is over. A kid that never has never will. (Balance it) but don't put out the flame.  

 

Son's past 1&1/2 years

Senior HS season, a couple weeks off until Legion started, a couple weeks off until fall ball in college, couple weeks off for Christmas, back at it again in January until seasons end, a couple weeks off until Legion started, a couple weeks off between fall ball which is underway now again. 

I guess that's year round? It's what every kid in college does. They really don't have much choice except to possibly take the summer off, but is that really an option? Your teammates are playing, the school is bringing in Freshman and JUCO's that you'll be competing with in the fall for the spring season, and I'll bet they played somewhere in the summer, they want a spot just like you do. Don't think taking the summer off is a smart option. Year round is just what you do when you're a baseball player, with brief periods of rest here and there.   

 

what really gets me as one of those guys that coached high school way back. Now they have more rules than you can imagine. I am always amused by the pitch count rule. a high school kid can only throw x amount of pitches and so many days rest but he plays summer ball fall ball has indoor practice in the winter (at least up north) . I am sure he is throwing then??? The high school season practice opened in March and you played into late May and early June. We collected the uniforms and saw the players the following March. Believe it or not I wanted my players to take a break. Play football or soccer or basketball run cross country. Despite what they say today I believe it was better for them . Now a kid is told by coaches parents they will only get a scholarship if they play or practice year round. I know once the season was over win or lose I needed a break. Now coaches go year round. I look at a team web page and they have it seems more coaches than players . I am told all this has evolved over the years and the players are much better. Was at a high school game last spring saw baserunning blunders defensive mistakes here is one fly ball hit to outfield kid loses it in the sun. sunglasses on top of his head.  Cutoff man? what is that? I could go on. 

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