Posey's collision

Well the other bases you don't have the shin guards to protect you from the spikes. Plus you can run past the other bags to be safe so it doesn't make sense to block here because the runner has to stop on the bag somehow.

In this play Posey did nothing right in terms of blocking the plate except for getting his cushion. Two rules of thumb for a catcher to protect himself - 1) Never have your legs completely straight because a straight leg probably won't bend when hit. Having a bend in the knee allows the knee to continue to bend when it gets hit. Most knee injuries are due to the catcher not having his knee allowed some type of range of motion. 2) Never, ever, ever take on a full hit on your knees. You have no protection and nowhere for your body to go to deflect the impact.

Catchers should stay on their feet and if the collision is unavoidable go limp and roll back with the hit to take away the impact. They are taught to start falling backward just before the hit so the runner actually goes over top of them with their force.

If he has time then he can secure the ball in hand covered by the mitt. Drop step one of his feet and sidestep the collision while making the tag.

In this play I think the runner made a cheap shot due to this was a terrible decision on his part to try and score on such a shallow ball. He had no intention of going for the plate. His goal was to dislodge the ball from the catcher by force and then to touch the plate. It's not illegal but I think it's bush league. If a play happens naturally and somebody gets hurt that's one thing. But when your goal is to do something like this then it's bush. I wouldn't be surprised if that runner gets several pitches in his ribs this season from the Giants. Maybe even some hard tags on picks at first.

Time to put a must slide rule in. These type of collison have ended very good careers and seasons. Runners must slide on every other base, why not home.
Lefty

Amen to the hard tags at first, folks think the pitcher is the only one that can protect his players, and sometimes it is, till they get on. A guy diving back to the bag and catches a mitt full of ball in the ear hole doesnt forget it for a while..course that was 25 years ago, hope players still try to protect one another, times change though.

Southern Fried,

I am all for old school. Drill Cousins in the ribs and then have 1B give repeated hard tags/full facials.

Of course, Cousins didn't play today, but he will get his. Next series between the two teams, August 12th.

My son catches. I don't think we need to change the game. Cousins was playing hard, IMO.

If Posey stayed on his feet, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

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If Posey stayed on his feet, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I have to disagree. His foot was planted in the ground otherwise he doesn't break it. Yes it appears he is going to his knees, but the thought of "staying on his feet" is inaccurate. He was still on his feet.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:

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If Posey stayed on his feet, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I have to disagree. His foot was planted in the ground otherwise he doesn't break it. Yes it appears he is going to his knees, but the thought of "staying on his feet" is inaccurate. He was still on his feet.

I think that's exactly what caused the injury. Foot planted but also with his knees on the ground. There's no place go. Everythings jammed in. If his foot is planted without being on his knees, he just falls backward and no injury. Atleast that injury. IMHO.

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If his foot is planted without being on his knees, he just falls backward and no injury. Atleast that injury. IMHO.

Still looking at a bad sprain with a likely fracture. I saw the MRI apparently showed torn ligament(s) in the ankle as well. I'll be interested to see which ligament(s) were torn. Typically with a fibular fracture you'd injure the ligaments on the outside of the ankle, the video looks like he probably suffered an eversion ankle sprain injuring the ligament(s) on the inside of the ankle. That alone can be season-ending right there.

Bulldog I'm going to have to disagree with your disagreement. If you look at the 45 second mark of the video above you will see that Posey is on his left knee and his right knee is barely touching or maybe not there yet but he's going to it at the moment of contact.

The reason his leg / ankle breaks is because his left foot is flat on the inside edge of his foot. When Cousins made contact and forced his body back on itself his foot had nowhere to go so it broke.

If Posey stays "on his toes" or even flat on his feet then he would never have broken his leg. His feet would have kicked out and he would have landed on his back.

I think its because he dropped to his knees. Either way.....OUCH!!!!!

Buster put himself in a horrible position to take a hit. Not only was the kneeling on the ground but his body was completely up right. Allowing yourself to get killed it doesn't really prove anything. When you're in a collision you wanna stay as low to the ground is possible in stay underneath the hit, this allows the runner to go over the top of you not through you. Should watch some old video of mike scosia he could take a hit and walk away from it

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
I have to disagree. His foot was planted in the ground otherwise he doesn't break it. Yes it appears he is going to his knees, but the thought of "staying on his feet" is inaccurate. He was still on his feet.

He was NOT on his feet. He was on both knees.

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He was NOT on his feet. He was on both knees.

His foot had to be planted otherwise it doesn't break. Yes, he has one knee down and it does appear the other one is coming down but he was on his feet still. Unless Cousins was able to put him back onto his feet..

What do you mean exactly when you say his foot was planted? When I think of a foot being planted I see the bottom part of the foot in contact with the ground. You're basically on the ball of your foot or the foot is completely flat on the ground.

If you mean his foot was planted to where it wouldn't move at all regardless of how it's on the ground then I can see where you're coming from.

Look at the video above at the 2:35 mark (the last slow mo replay) and you can see that Posey's foot is not on the bottom part or ball of the foot. His foot was on the inside part of the foot and that part got stuck or planted into the ground and it broke.

If his foot had been on the ball of his foot he probably wouldn't have gotten hurt even if the knee was on the ground. You know how a catcher goes to a knee to throw back to the pitcher and the catcher just rolls back up into a squat? If his foot had been like this I don't see him getting hurt.

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Originally posted by Bulldog 19:
His foot had to be planted otherwise it doesn't break. Yes, he has one knee down and it does appear the other one is coming down but he was on his feet still. Unless Cousins was able to put him back onto his feet..

Please explain what you mean by his "foot being planted". What I see is both knees on the ground with his feet behind him. Poor position.

If he had both of his feet on the ground (spikes in the dirt) and facing 3B, he would have simply fallen over on his back after contact.

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If he had both of his feet on the ground (spikes in the dirt) and facing 3B,

believe the throw was coming from RF .... hard to track the ball from there if you are facing 3B.

He was needlessly bulldozed. Cheap a.. play. I wonder if the SF pitchers have any nuts, will see when he comes to bat in their next series.

We will see what they thought of the play won't we? I am betting he will find out his first at bat.

It came from right center but IMO the reason why he went to his knees is the throw was tough to handle. It hit in that area where it handcuffs the catcher. He went to his knees trying to get his hands on the ball. As a former catcher myself I'm not sure if I could have stayed off my knees either but that is what got him hurt when he got drilled.

I have no doubt that the very first pitch that Cousins see will be in the backside. We will see what he's made of after this. Does he head to first or does he jaw? I bet the Marlins pitcher won't hit anybody after he gets drilled.

The only thing that needs to change about these plays is the catchers going to their knees. If this doesn't happen they don't get hurt; it's that simple.

There is no way of knowing that he wouldn't have suffered an injury if he was on his feet. Maybe he would have broken a rib or collapsed a lung, there really is no way of knowing??

As a former professional catcher and now a catching coach, I'd like to see the rule changed so that you have to slide. Shinguards and a chest protector do not protect from serious injuries due to collisions at the plate.

When a play like this develops catchers are completely vulnerable...why? How is it any different than a base runner tackling the shortstop to break up the double play?

Besides "preserving the history of the game" or "thats how they've always done it" I don't think anyone could come up with a valid reason to allow malicious plays like this from occurring...go ahead take your best shot!

This entire thread turns my stomach. My son is a JUCO catcher who took a horrible football style tackle last week. Even though we won the game it still left a very bad feeling in me. He was doing all the right things but the base runner just bowled him over - - no slide. Runner came in upright and arms crossed up under my son's chin. When the ball rolled out of catcher's glove while he was unconscious, the HP ump called the runner safe. There is a small amount of justice in this because runner broke his collarbone on the play! If this makes any difference, the ball was in catcher's glove long before runner tackled him. Even a week later it makes my blood boil for what could have been! Also, this is in JUCO ball. Thanks for listening>

If Buster would have gone to his knees with both feet pointing the same direction (towards the field) instead of opposite directions (Left foot pointing towards the dugout) he probably wouldnt have broke his ankle and hurt his knee as he got knocked over.

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Besides "preserving the history of the game" or "thats how they've always done it" I don't think anyone could come up with a valid reason to allow malicious plays like this from occurring...go ahead take your best shot!

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Originally posted by Walawala:
If Buster would have gone to his knees with both feet pointing the same direction (towards the field) instead of opposite directions (Left foot pointing towards the dugout) he probably wouldnt have broke his ankle and hurt his knee as he got knocked over.

Thank you - this is exactly how to describe Posey's feet at contact. I was doing a horrible job of doing that.

Did you guys see the play yesterday with Mike Napoli sliding under the tag?

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15337115

Great call by the ump and absolutely horrible job by Pena in blocking the plate. Do you think he had Posey in the back of his mind since the throw beat him by so much? Do you think Napoli didn't drill him due to professional courtesy being a catcher himself?

The video after Napoli is the Reds / Braves and another play at the plate where it was bang bang without a collision. Both great and exciting plays.

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Great call by the ump and absolutely horrible job by Pena in blocking the plate. Do you think he had Posey in the back of his mind since the throw beat him by so much? Do you think Napoli didn't drill him due to professional courtesy being a catcher himself?

I think Pena was preparing for the collision instead of making the tag. And Napoli saw he had a chance to slide and score so he took it! But if you watch that video and stop it before the actual play, you'd say "he's gotta run him over to score" if you use the logic people have used with Cousins.

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But if you watch that video and stop it before the actual play, you'd say "he's gotta run him over to score" if you use the logic people have used with Cousins.

Bulldog,

Once a runner makes a decision, it shouldn't change. Indecision can cause serious injury to the runner. The decision to slide and type of slide, at any base and path, needs to be made as early as possible. Same goes for a collision or simply standing up. Changing your mind at the last second is a mistake.

The runner trying to score is relying on his view of the play, the teammate telling him what to do at the plate, and mostly on his instincts. There is no time for logic, the goal is to score.

If they want to stop collisions, they need to change the rules. Then the collision is not one of the decisions.

It's easy for everyone to watch a replay in stop action or slo-motion and form an opinion or compare plays. As we all know, the runner does not have that luxury and people do make mistakes at times. The mentality is to score the run, do whatever it takes within the rules. Without a rule change it will happen again.

BTW, If there were a rule against running over the catcher, that great slide wouldn't have worked. It was the catcher expecting the collision that froze him and allowed the slide to work.

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Once a runner makes a decision, it shouldn't change. Indecision can cause serious injury to the runner. The decision to slide and type of slide, at any base and path, needs to be made as early as possible.

Cousins changed his decision very late. He changed directions away from home plate.

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If they want to stop collisions, they need to change the rules. Then the collision is not one of the decisions.

I agree completely.

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Cousins changed his decision very late. He changed directions away from home plate.

I actually saw it differently than most, I guess. I think he determined that this was his best chance of scoring an important run. I wished that play wouldn't have happened, but it did. To me it was just one of those plays that happen at times in baseball.

In fact, once the play was over Cousins looked very concerned about Buster. He wanted to score a run, I don't think his intent was to injure Buster. He did what he "thought" he had to do (right or wrong). Had there been no injury, this same play would have been long forgotten as just another collision at the plate.

Although my son is only 12, he's been playing catcher primarily for 2+ years at travel and LL all-star levels. I often wonder why sweep tags are not used more because they are, in general, a hell of a lot safer than blocking the plate, say when a 200+ lb person comes in hands/arm out, upright, and intent on kocking the catcher back into next week! I've also wondered why catchers have not tried to apply a hard "face tag" to those types of charging runners and let him eat leather...?

But then I always get back to the whole "how is any of this a good thing?" issue...

When a play like this develops catchers are completely vulnerable...why? How is it any different than a base runner tackling the shortstop to break up the double play?

I completely agree with Xan. My son is a catcher at the H.S. level, and has had a collision this past year. He was ok and delivered more of a blow to the runner, but it is senseless for either party to risk a serious injury.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Batty67:
I've also wondered why catchers have not tried to apply a hard "face tag" to those types of charging runners and let him eat leather...?
QUOTE]

My HS son has done this. If it looks like the runner is going to try it, tag high and push off turning to the field. Pretty funny to see the reaction of the runner who thought he was going to plow and then got plowed picking leather from his teeth.

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Originally posted by coach2709:

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Originally posted by Walawala:
If Buster would have gone to his knees with both feet pointing the same direction (towards the field) instead of opposite directions (Left foot pointing towards the dugout) he probably wouldnt have broke his ankle and hurt his knee as he got knocked over.

Thank you - this is exactly how to describe Posey's feet at contact. I was doing a horrible job of doing that.

Did you guys see the play yesterday with Mike Napoli sliding under the tag?

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15337115

Great call by the ump and absolutely horrible job by Pena in blocking the plate. Do you think he had Posey in the back of his mind since the throw beat him by so much? Do you think Napoli didn't drill him due to professional courtesy being a catcher himself?

The video after Napoli is the Reds / Braves and another play at the plate where it was bang bang without a collision. Both great and exciting plays.

I cannot ever remember seeing a big league catcher block the plate the way I described. It almost looks like its something they either don't practice or talk about much at all in spring training, because every catcher does something a little bit different.

I heard a good interview with Bobby Valentine about the collision and wether a rule change was needed. He made some really good points. He said there was a need for new technique...we are still teaching to catch and cover the ball because the old mitts did not have much of a pocket and required the cover hand. He suggested to teach to receive the ball in front of the plate and swipe tag like a 2nd baseman or ss. He said blocking the plate should still be an option for closer plays but the catch must know the runner...if it is Prince Fielder...give him the base and live to play again on another day.

Watching MLB Channel the other night and Eric Byrnes was on and commented about the Posey play.
He said it's time MLB to make rules to protect their players just as the NFL did. QB and WR are protected from hits when they are helpless. I agree! If you see the film from above, Posey had left the runner a lane and the runner could have easily slid to his right and would have been safe. Instead he went to his left (towards the mound, away from the plate) to collide with Posey. Totally unnecessary and such a waste.

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Originally posted by coach2709:

quote:

Originally posted by Walawala:
If Buster would have gone to his knees with both feet pointing the same direction (towards the field) instead of opposite directions (Left foot pointing towards the dugout) he probably wouldnt have broke his ankle and hurt his knee as he got knocked over.

Thank you - this is exactly how to describe Posey's feet at contact. I was doing a horrible job of doing that.

Did you guys see the play yesterday with Mike Napoli sliding under the tag?

http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=15337115

Great call by the ump and absolutely horrible job by Pena in blocking the plate. Do you think he had Posey in the back of his mind since the throw beat him by so much? Do you think Napoli didn't drill him due to professional courtesy being a catcher himself?

The video after Napoli is the Reds / Braves and another play at the plate where it was bang bang without a collision. Both great and exciting plays.

I see that as poor tagging technique - proximity play - and it happens all the time in the bigs. He didn't need to block the plate, he needed to tag his feet before Nap's feet touched the base. The laws of physics dictate that if a guy is sliding feet first at a base between your feet and you tag him up on the chest, he's safe.

Last night on the MLB channel they revisited the Posey collision. Until last night I was in the camp that the runner should have avoided contact, but Mitch Williams brought up a good point. If you look at Posey’s mitt at the point of contact, it was over the plate.
So, you are the runner, tied ballgame in the 12th, shallow fly ball, you tag and know it’s going to be close so you will have to knock the ball loose. Once Posey turned and put his mitt over the plate the only way to knock it loose is to hit the catcher. The runner could not see that Posey didn’t have the ball because it was behind Posey.

Guys:
As long as the current rules apply, catchers better expect to get hit.For me the goal is to avoid injury while still giving yourself the best chance to record the out.With that in mind I'm trying to avoid conatct or at worst absorb contact.Some really important guidelines:
1. Know your runners & the situation.
A. Nyjer Morgan vs.David Eckstein
B. Inning, outs & score.Etc.
2. Keep your head on a swivel. Know the position of the runner relative to the position of the ball. Assume that the ball is traveling 3-4 times faster than the runner depending on the runner, thrower & if the ball on fielded off the ground or in the air.Certainly field conditions come in to play as well(wet or dry-windy or calm).
3. Keep your mask on.
4. Avoid straight on contact. Try to create a tag angle from the side.
5. Start slightly in front of the plate (12-18") & enough inside the line so the runner can see the plate & has a sliding lane.On throws from RF where catchers are most vulnerable because they don't see the runner as well & because throws to the catcher's right open them up to getting drilled in the ribs, I prefer to start the catcher at the back point of the plate( 3B foul line extended ). As soon as they see an accurate throw to their glove side they move into position in front of the plate. If the throw is on the foul side of home (1B side ) they are in a position to catch the ball while moving into the runner. If the throw is so far to the foul side of home that they have to move to their right to catch it, they most likely do not have a play.
6. Start low with your glove open to the ball ( much like a second baseman or shortstop on a steal tag ) & catch the ball going down to execute the tag. Do not reach for the ball.Catch it deep. The ball moves faster tahn your hands & when you reach, you are more exposed to contact.
7.The timing of the throw relative to ball & runner & the type of throw long hop or air ball,short hop or inbetween hop & on line or off line is going to determine the type of tag technique you will employ. Whatever technique you use anticipate contact, stay below the runner, & absorb contact ( live to fight another day)Relax.Tense muscles make you hostage to the hop.
A. Good throw(on line,in the air, long hop or short hop )
1. Ball beats runner by 2 steps or more.
a. Secure the ball in your bare hand & have a cushion between your glove & hand.
b. Keep your feet & pivot away from the runner & towards your glove as you tag the runner. Show the umpire the ball( also serves as a subliminal out sign )as you ready yourself to throw out a trail runner.Could be a one knee down tag but that puts you in a more vulnerable position & is slower getting ready to address the secondary runners.
c. If the runner tries to run you over tag him HIGH & HARD.
d. If you get the ball really early, you have the option to go up the line & sweep tag the runner on his back. Avoid taking him straight on so that you do not jam your wrist.
2. Bang bang play or ball arrrives just after the runner.
a. For me this is a 2 knee tag situation.Create a side angle so you are not taking the runner straight on.( similar to how an offensive lineman creates leverage to control a defensive lineman )Make sure that you are rolling away from contact before the actual contact. Make sure that both toes are pointed to the same side & not straight back or to opposite sides. This allows you to absorb the contact & not resist it. Mike Scioscia was a master at this technique.Could this situation be executed with a one knee down technique? Certainly, but IMO the leg that is not down ( usually the left leg ) is vulnerable to a high slide.
B. Off line throw.
1. Just off line it's a one handed sweep tag.Could be on one or both knees. Avoid taking the runner straight on, stay inside.
2. Further off line,shuffle to the ball & dive back to the front edge of the plate.
C. Inbetween hop.No % in trying to catch or block this ball & still have time to control it before making the tag.
1. Hold your ground & 2 knee this throw & try to control this ball by trapping it against your body. Rotate sideways ( to your left) & be ready for contact. with both feet pointed to your right side or left side & not straight back.

Hope this provides some food for thought.

JW