Posted article from Eric Cressey removed on showcases

roothog66 posted:

I follow Cressey as well, but statements like this:

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

completely kill his credibility on this subject. Not only is this blatant BS preceded by a declaration of "honesty." It's either a complete lie/exaggeration that is so incredible a statement as to make me confident it can't be true or he's so out of touch that he believes it. I would think even the most pessimistic posters here wouldn't think that in all his years of training baseball players, he's only seen one kid "discovered" at a showcase. It's a dishonest statement and blows his credibility with me.

I'm not about to defend Cressey or argue your point but I can say this - If you've ever actually been to Cressey Sports Performance (I have - many times) and had kids who threw there (I have), you'd know that the type of client who typically works out there was discovered a long time ago.  Not a lot of newbies walking around CSP from my observations.  Not to say there aren't any, and not really posting to argue the point either or the fact that he said it, just providing some context via my own visits there.  You're welcome to question his credibility and form your opinions, but I think I would be safe in saying that he is a very well known and respected person in high level baseball circles.

justbaseball posted:

I agree, the statement doesn't make sense to me either.  But there are plenty of other experts that have one statement here or there that don't make sense to me either - but it doesn't diminish what they say on things they are indeed expert about.  On pitcher training and physiology, I (and many, many others) consider him an expert.  That part of the story is not diminished and should be considered when setting your son's pitching schedule.

The problem is that once a person shows that he will exaggerate so grossly in order to support his point in even a matter that isn't part of his expertise, it casts some doubt on anything else he offers. You have to ask yourselves every time he puts something out a notion supported by a fact if it is indeed a fact or is he exaggerating that piece of information to persuade you he's right. It removes the confidence you might otherwise have in taking what he says as a fact because its supported by his integrity. Not saying I'll stop listening to what he says or discount it, just that I no longer, after reading that statement, feel able to simply take his word for it as an expert without double-checking him.

9and7dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

I follow Cressey as well, but statements like this:

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

completely kill his credibility on this subject. Not only is this blatant BS preceded by a declaration of "honesty." It's either a complete lie/exaggeration that is so incredible a statement as to make me confident it can't be true or he's so out of touch that he believes it. I would think even the most pessimistic posters here wouldn't think that in all his years of training baseball players, he's only seen one kid "discovered" at a showcase. It's a dishonest statement and blows his credibility with me.

I'm not about to defend Cressey or argue your point but I can say this - If you've ever actually been to Cressey Sports Performance (I have - many times) and had kids who threw there (I have), you'd know that the type of client who typically works out there was discovered a long time ago.  Not a lot of newbies walking around CSP from my observations.  Not to say there aren't any, and not really posting to argue the point either or the fact that he said it, just providing some context via my own visits there.  You're welcome to question his credibility and form your opinions, but I think I would be safe in saying that he is a very well known and respected person in high level baseball circles.

I've never argued that he isn't well-known or well-respected, but so are guys like Jerry Ford and Cressey basically dismissed his entire life's work as useless and harmful and he did so with a blatantly ignorant statement that he quite likely knows to be untrue.

Actually, I found it disappointing because I do have a lot of respect for Eric Cressey and the work he does.

That was a very sobering post from cabbagedad.

As far as educating, just seems to me even when you try, it doesn't hit home, not until an injury occurs, maybe not even then.

roothog66 posted:

Actually, I found it disappointing because I do have a lot of respect for Eric Cressey and the work he does.

Does anyone know of anyone who has actually been "discovered " at a showcase? 

Keep in mind I am not asking about tournaments. I consider them two different type of events.

Also, one thing to remember is that most talented players from their specific area have already been identified.  

When son was in HS he was already known in the area, but "discovered" by his college program while at Jupiter. Actually, I am not sure he was actually discovered,  the coach already knew who he was just came to watch him pitch.  

I don't think his statement is too far off the mark.

TPM posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Is that bolded part still true? I was at a college game (D1) a week ago Monday. They played right before my son's high school game on the same field. We made a day out of it and the boys got out of school early to watch.

TPM posted:

roothog66 posted:

Actually, I found it disappointing because I do have a lot of respect for Eric Cressey and the work he does.

Does anyone know of anyone who has actually been "discovered " at a showcase? 

Keep in mind I am not asking about tournaments. I consider them two different type of events.

Also, one thing to remember is that most talented players from their specific area have already been identified.  

When son was in HS he was already known in the area, but "discovered" by his college program while at Jupiter. Actually, I am not sure he was actually discovered,  the coach already knew who he was just came to watch him pitch.  

I don't think his statement is too far off the mark.

Depends on what you define as "discovered".  If you mean they were discovered by a particular school, then yes, I know several.

One example is a now college freshman starting at a strong DII in the south.  He had aspirations and slight attention at a mid/lower DI, but the attention was always tempered.  This player is a good player, but wasn't one of the top prospect, high on the radar since HS freshman type.  He made HS JV as a frosh and soph and varsity as a Jr/Sr.  He didn't start as a Jr, but did as a Sr.

While the attention was always lukewarm from the local DI he wanted, he went to a local showcase and garnered a lot of attention, including being "discovered" by the DII for which he now starts.

I know several similar examples.  I believe that in the pond that Cressey swims, which is the high draft potential, top DI recruits, he is correct.  Probably not a lot of pure unknowns among that sample size discovered.  But for the rest of the mere mortals that play the game, I would venture that the vast majority are discovered at some sort of showcase or camp regularly.

I know there was one thread on here awhile back where one parent was saying his kid got "discovered" at a Headfirst showcase and wound up at that school.  To me, that is the definition of discovered--where a kid first got seen playing baseball by a college coach at a showcase or travel tournament and then wound up playing at that college.  That does not disqualify the kid who wanted to get a chance to play for that school and reached out to him ahead of time to let him know he would be at that upcoming showcase or tournament.

I have to believe that there are some here on this forum with a story like that.

kandkfunk posted:

TPM posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Is that bolded part still true? I was at a college game (D1) a week ago Monday. They played right before my son's high school game on the same field. We made a day out of it and the boys got out of school early to watch.

Most D1 programs classes have ended.  

Backstop22 posted:

I know there was one thread on here awhile back where one parent was saying his kid got "discovered" at a Headfirst showcase and wound up at that school.  To me, that is the definition of discovered--where a kid first got seen playing baseball by a college coach at a showcase or travel tournament and then wound up playing at that college.  That does not disqualify the kid who wanted to get a chance to play for that school and reached out to him ahead of time to let him know he would be at that upcoming showcase or tournament.

I have to believe that there are some here on this forum with a story like that.

Ok, I agree, there are exceptions to every rule.  

Showcases such as that certainly have their merit and have a important place in college recruiting, somewhat like the Stanford camps, but I am not sure that is what Cressey referred to, I think he more or less was speaking in terms of professional ball.

I apologize for not clarifying.

roothog66 posted:

justbaseball posted:

I agree, the statement doesn't make sense to me either.  But there are plenty of other experts that have one statement here or there that don't make sense to me either - but it doesn't diminish what they say on things they are indeed expert about.  On pitcher training and physiology, I (and many, many others) consider him an expert.  That part of the story is not diminished and should be considered when setting your son's pitching schedule.

The problem is that once a person shows that he will exaggerate so grossly in order to support his point in even a matter that isn't part of his expertise, it casts some doubt on anything else he offers. You have to ask yourselves every time he puts something out a notion supported by a fact if it is indeed a fact or is he exaggerating that piece of information to persuade you he's right. It removes the confidence you might otherwise have in taking what he says as a fact because its supported by his integrity. Not saying I'll stop listening to what he says or discount it, just that I no longer, after reading that statement, feel able to simply take his word for it as an expert without double-checking him.

Well, that cuts more than one way - right?

justbaseball posted:

roothog66 posted:

justbaseball posted:

I agree, the statement doesn't make sense to me either.  But there are plenty of other experts that have one statement here or there that don't make sense to me either - but it doesn't diminish what they say on things they are indeed expert about.  On pitcher training and physiology, I (and many, many others) consider him an expert.  That part of the story is not diminished and should be considered when setting your son's pitching schedule.

The problem is that once a person shows that he will exaggerate so grossly in order to support his point in even a matter that isn't part of his expertise, it casts some doubt on anything else he offers. You have to ask yourselves every time he puts something out a notion supported by a fact if it is indeed a fact or is he exaggerating that piece of information to persuade you he's right. It removes the confidence you might otherwise have in taking what he says as a fact because its supported by his integrity. Not saying I'll stop listening to what he says or discount it, just that I no longer, after reading that statement, feel able to simply take his word for it as an expert without double-checking him.

Well, that cuts more than one way - right?

Sorry. That may have gone right over my head. I get the feeling I am supposed to be offended but am too dense to understand exactly why.

TPM posted:

kandkfunk posted:

TPM posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Is that bolded part still true? I was at a college game (D1) a week ago Monday. They played right before my son's high school game on the same field. We made a day out of it and the boys got out of school early to watch.

Most D1 programs classes have ended.  

Hmm, not around here. Our State schools, including one of the schools playing, won't be out until June. I don't know about the other school. Not that it's a big deal. Just wondering.

kandkfunk posted:

TPM posted:

kandkfunk posted:

TPM posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Is that bolded part still true? I was at a college game (D1) a week ago Monday. They played right before my son's high school game on the same field. We made a day out of it and the boys got out of school early to watch.

Most D1 programs classes have ended.  

Hmm, not around here. Our State schools, including one of the schools playing, won't be out until June. I don't know about the other school. Not that it's a big deal. Just wondering.

I think the rule under Bylaw 17 is that any athletic activity must be prohibited one day per calendar week. I would assume most schools would choose Mondays for the obvious reason. 

The obvious reason being that Mondays suck.

Nothing to be offended about.

Exaggeration is common amongst...nearly everyone, including expert posters on this message board - I'm sure even me (NOT an expert!!) at times.  Your willingness to dismiss one particular expert based on a possible(?)/probable(?) exaggeration about something not that relevant to the main point of his article diminishes your observation about that expert...to me at least.

Ok, maybe you should be offended?  Or maybe not.  But my earlier comment  a couple of weeks ago about your posts stands - I think you bring a lot to the table here.  We just don't agree on this.

justbaseball posted:

Nothing to be offended about.

Exaggeration is common amongst...nearly everyone, including expert posters on this message board - I'm sure even me (NOT an expert!!) at times.  Your willingness to dismiss one particular expert based on a possible(?)/probable(?) exaggeration about something not that relevant to the main point of his article diminishes your observation about that expert...to me at least.

Ok, maybe you should be offended?  Or maybe not.  But my earlier comment  a couple of weeks ago about your posts stands - I think you bring a lot to the table here.  We just don't agree on this.

OK. Maybe I should lay off the hyperbole a bit. In all honesty, I don't dismiss Cressey at all and probably will still be inclined to take him at his word on almost everything he offers. I just found that one statement to be a little off the wall.

Roothog,

Odd that you should bring that up.  that happens to be one of our major goals.

We don't want pitchers showing up at our events unless the timing is right.  Especially during the time most consider the off season.  in most cases we believe the timing is right for those pitchers that do attend.  Some have taken more than enough time off due to certain circumstances, like injury or scheduling. 

So the only way we can be positive is by educating people.  We are using PitchSmart rules, but that wont eliminate all the issues.  There is no way we can know what a pitcher is doing before or after our event.  In some cases good coaching takes care of the problem.  but nothing can be better than educating the players and the parents and hoping they understand.

What I consider "being discovered" is when the club or college first decided this is a guy they want. When I hear it worked out for so and so, he went in the 30th round without doing much of anything, I always wonder.  what would have happened if he did do those things.  who knows whether he would have been a 2nd rounder had more people seen him perform against potential 1st and 2nd rounders?  There's an awful lot of difference and not just monetarily in a 2nd rounder and a rd 30 guy.

I'm all for the great pitching gurus out there. Woolforth, Boddy, Cressey, etc.  They know what they are doing.  I'm just not sure any of them other than Ron Woolforth and Rick Peterson have ever been to a PG event.  Maybe they have and I just didn't know it.  If they haven't I think it would be helpful if they did attend one of the bigger events to see what goes on. 

Guess I just get tired of hearing the old "one shoe fits all" stuff.  Taking time off isnt exactly the same time off from one person to the next.  Some need to pitch more, that is why they have winter leagues in pro ball.  Most kids in Iowa take the spring off from baseball.  South Dakota doesn't have HS baseball.  Some quit pitching by July 1st, others quit at the end of October. Bumgarner threw more one the last couple days of October than anyone could call reasonable.  Yes, it was the World Series, and everyone wants to be playing at the end of October.

I really dont know of a single pitcher that pitches in games all year around, but I suppose there are some.

Someone should research Lucas Giolito. He is about ready to be called up.  Luckily everyone knew about him before his draft year, because he was injured and didn't pitch his last HS season.  He threw less than 10 innings in HS as a sophomore and not much more as a junior.  Probably less than 30 innings all year, counting the summer.  He did pitch in a couple PG events including one inning in the All American game as a junior.  Two innings in another one.  He also pitched in the Area Code Games.  And yes, he did light up the radar gun up to 97 or so.  He even attended the Jupiter event that year, but he did not pitch.  His dad was wise and made sure he never over did anything. 

The Nationals drafted him even knowing he was injured in the first round. They already saw him the two years before. Then he had TJ surgery before throwing a pitch in professional baseball.  If anything, Lucas threw far less pitches and had far more rest than almost any top pitching prospect we have ever known.  Arm care was vitally important in the Giolito household. 

I remember talking to his dad about a late season event and he politely said we are shutting Lucas down.  Very simple, no issue, clearly understood, he was doing the right thing.  Still ended up with TJ surgery.  Must have been those three innings he breezed through at PG events. Then again the wallet might be quite a bit lighter had he not thrown those three innings.  Because the guy most responsible for drafting him is a very good friend who watched those three innings right by my side.

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

Dominik85 posted:

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

Dominik85 -- I started a topic yesterday with a great blog post (IMO) from Kyle Boddy. Here's what he said about showcases -- you can decide for yourself whether he's being "critical" of showcases (I don't think so, but that's JMO):

"If you go to Perfect Game events when you aren’t any good, you are screwing yourself. “Exposure” is a two-way street – if you aren’t a top-flight guy, guess what? You’ve just shown everyone that you are an average-sized HS junior that throws 82-85 MPH with a bad breaking ball. That’s not a guy that commands Division-I attention at all. And the more you showcase your average tools, the more that version of you is imprinted on college recruiters and pro scouts. Even if you start to develop and get better, they again will remember the average toolsy version of you and it will take more to get them off their first impression.

Here’s what you do – attend showcases when you are clearly AT LEAST in the top quartile of performance for your age. If you show up, blow noise, rip breaking balls, and perform well, you will then get invites to the big national showcases at no charge. Then you attend those, do well, and guess what? Offers will come in and scouts will be sending you questionnaires to fill out.

If you showcase well at a young age, you will get a ton of shots down the line – this is similar to minor league ball, but that’s another discussion entirely. If you showcase poorly at a young age, scouts will remember that, and while it won’t doom you, it makes it harder to overcome those impressions."

2019Dad posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

Dominik85 -- I started a topic yesterday with a great blog post (IMO) from Kyle Boddy. Here's what he said about showcases -- you can decide for yourself whether he's being "critical" of showcases (I don't think so, but that's JMO):

"If you go to Perfect Game events when you aren’t any good, you are screwing yourself. “Exposure” is a two-way street – if you aren’t a top-flight guy, guess what? You’ve just shown everyone that you are an average-sized HS junior that throws 82-85 MPH with a bad breaking ball. That’s not a guy that commands Division-I attention at all. And the more you showcase your average tools, the more that version of you is imprinted on college recruiters and pro scouts. Even if you start to develop and get better, they again will remember the average toolsy version of you and it will take more to get them off their first impression.

Here’s what you do – attend showcases when you are clearly AT LEAST in the top quartile of performance for your age. If you show up, blow noise, rip breaking balls, and perform well, you will then get invites to the big national showcases at no charge. Then you attend those, do well, and guess what? Offers will come in and scouts will be sending you questionnaires to fill out.

If you showcase well at a young age, you will get a ton of shots down the line – this is similar to minor league ball, but that’s another discussion entirely. If you showcase poorly at a young age, scouts will remember that, and while it won’t doom you, it makes it harder to overcome those impressions."

I take Boddy's position as a pretty solid one. One problem is that most don't have a good idea of the timetable. That's really the kind of education I'm talking about. There is no one-size-fits-all. Often the question of when to start showcasing comes up here. There's no good answer without knowing a lot of details.

If you are a freshman pitcher throwing 85/86 (or a 6' 4" lefty throwing 84) with some good size, you're very likely to get an early look by D1's. If you are in the summer before your senior year with the same measurable you need to adjust your target audience and try to get in front of more welcoming schools. Perhaps you're better suited to target specific schools through camps. If you're a 5' 7" freshman throwing 78-79 you're wasting your money. There are so many variables it's mind boggling.

My son plays on a team that is a mix of 2018's and 2019's. There are some very talented 2019's including PG's 14u player of the year last year. That kid is a catcher who registered a 1.89 pop time at a PG showcase the summer before his freshman year and he can hit. He's already entertaining multiple offers. Another 2019 on the team just committed to Oregon State.  They were introduced to him at the same PG event. Those are freshman that should definitely have been there. I see others who are wasting their time. Some, I would even say shouldn't have showcased at all. They should have found some very specific schools that might be a fit for them and target them specifically. Bottom line is that it is up to the parents, player, and maybe his coaches to educate themselves and develop a reasonable timeframe and game plan for recruiting.

The reason showcases don't get results for most players is that most players aren't above average.

roothog - Thats a solid post IMO.  In my 10+ years on here, I don't recall a parent of a current player assessing the whole thing that clearly.  Certainly, I did not on our first son.

roothog66 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

Dominik85 -- I started a topic yesterday with a great blog post (IMO) from Kyle Boddy. Here's what he said about showcases -- you can decide for yourself whether he's being "critical" of showcases (I don't think so, but that's JMO):

"If you go to Perfect Game events when you aren’t any good, you are screwing yourself. “Exposure” is a two-way street – if you aren’t a top-flight guy, guess what? You’ve just shown everyone that you are an average-sized HS junior that throws 82-85 MPH with a bad breaking ball. That’s not a guy that commands Division-I attention at all. And the more you showcase your average tools, the more that version of you is imprinted on college recruiters and pro scouts. Even if you start to develop and get better, they again will remember the average toolsy version of you and it will take more to get them off their first impression.

Here’s what you do – attend showcases when you are clearly AT LEAST in the top quartile of performance for your age. If you show up, blow noise, rip breaking balls, and perform well, you will then get invites to the big national showcases at no charge. Then you attend those, do well, and guess what? Offers will come in and scouts will be sending you questionnaires to fill out.

If you showcase well at a young age, you will get a ton of shots down the line – this is similar to minor league ball, but that’s another discussion entirely. If you showcase poorly at a young age, scouts will remember that, and while it won’t doom you, it makes it harder to overcome those impressions."

I take Boddy's position as a pretty solid one. One problem is that most don't have a good idea of the timetable. That's really the kind of education I'm talking about. There is no one-size-fits-all. Often the question of when to start showcasing comes up here. There's no good answer without knowing a lot of details.

If you are a freshman pitcher throwing 85/86 (or a 6' 4" lefty throwing 84) with some good size, you're very likely to get an early look by D1's. If you are in the summer before your senior year with the same measurable you need to adjust your target audience and try to get in front of more welcoming schools. Perhaps you're better suited to target specific schools through camps. If you're a 5' 7" freshman throwing 78-79 you're wasting your money. There are so many variables it's mind boggling.

My son plays on a team that is a mix of 2018's and 2019's. There are some very talented 2019's including PG's 14u player of the year last year. That kid is a catcher who registered a 1.89 pop time at a PG showcase the summer before his freshman year and he can hit. He's already entertaining multiple offers. Another 2019 on the team just committed to Oregon State.  They were introduced to him at the same PG event. Those are freshman that should definitely have been there. I see others who are wasting their time. Some, I would even say shouldn't have showcased at all. They should have found some very specific schools that might be a fit for them and target them specifically. Bottom line is that it is up to the parents, player, and maybe his coaches to educate themselves and develop a reasonable timeframe and game plan for recruiting.

you must be from CO, I just saw  that Oregon state info come up on my twitter  

I certainly don't have a problem with what Kyle Boddy wrote in that blog.  I think it is true.  Only thing I might somewhat disagree on is this... The most important time any scout or recruiter sees a player, is the last time they see him.  If the player has what they are looking for, it really doesn't matter what he did previously.  On the other hand the players history can actually be beneficial regarding projection.

You know, I have been saying this for 20 years... Perfect Game is not for everybody!  We cannot help every player.  It certainly doesn't help us if we have an event with no talent.  Some might claim it brings in money.  That is money we don't want.  It is not what we do and it would hinder our chance of success.

We do have open type events.  Pretty much anyone can attend.  Over the years I have answered many questions from parents wanting to know if attending this event will be beneficial.  I've said it here before many times, I will say it again.  If I don't know the player, how could I possibly know if the event will be beneficial for him.  So the same answer every time.

If your son has talent, you will be happy he attended.  If your son lacks talent, you will be throwing your money out the window.

Even after that, some still attend because they really don't know how talented their son is and they want to find out.  I guess I can understand that, but there are other less expensive ways to find out.

All that said, and this is just a guess... I would guess that well over 90% of the players we see have at least college potential.  

@PGStaff: We are one of those families that had no clue, shelled out bucks, spent countless hours in the heat & humidity,  always relegated to the "B" team, but learned the reality of his level of play and...would do it all again in a heartbeat!  Kid was barely recruited being asked to visit but one D-3 school during the Atlanta event. But, he has 'bragging' rights to having played (and lost miserably!) against top teams in country. He got to see all of those scouts lined up for other players and witness the frenzy of radar guns and notepads.  Yes, all of our vacations were baseball-only or -mostly events for a couple of years. But to the point of this thread: Yes, we, the parents, watched his arm and were able to time b/c of availability of numerous events. It was a heck of a lot of fun and a great adventure (which continues still at the D3 level).

ps. here's hoping you can figure out a way to activate scholarship programs for these costly adventures...

AL PAL,

Scholarships would be great, but they would have to come from the teams that participate.  The actual players in those tournaments don't pay us directly.

Anyway, I'm happy you and your son enjoyed the experience. It reminded me of something.

Awhile back I used that answer somewhere about If you have talent you'll be happy, if you don't have talent you are throwing away your money and someone read it and emailed me.

He said he understood what I was saying, but he and his son have a completely different outlook.  His son was one that lacked talent.  He didn't go on to play in college.  But something his son will never ever forget was getting the chance to hit against both Scott Kazmir and Chad Billingsley.

They were watching a game on television and Kazmir was pitching.  His son got a big smile on his face and said, there he is!  Didn't need to say much more, at that point his dad knew that event he went to was priceless.

So I guess there are always different ways to look at things.

Dominik85 posted:

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

 RE: This and Jerry's comments... this makes no sense. I am going to clear the air here. If people read my blog articles on this topic, which it appears few have, then you'd see statements like this:

https://www.drivelinebaseball....johns-grip-pitchers/

---

But then Jonah quotes another anonymous AL executive who seems to be totally clueless about cause and effect:

“The rise of Perfect Game baseball and other summer travel baseball has dramatically decreased the off time for younger players. Kids are traveling all over the country from 8 years old on, and playing year-round. Colleges are recruiting younger and younger, and kids feel like if they don’t compete in every summer or fall event, they will lose their chance for exposure. That kind of exposure also leads to kids absolutely airing it out at max effort. When the section behind the plate is loaded with recruiters and scouts, kids absolutely take it up a notch and try to throw it through the backstop. The damage that is being done early can’t be undone by managing workloads once pitchers get into pro baseball.”

So… how is this Perfect Game’s fault, exactly? College and professional teams are the ones sending scouts to these events! If they were so concerned with keeping kids healthy, they would decrease the incentive to attend the events by not sending representatives of their teams. PG is only responding to market forces by providing events, and it’s a stretch to blame them specifically for decreasing the amount of time off, anyway.

---

In this article I EXPLICITLY DEFEND PERFECT GAME. 

RE: This comment by Jerry:

" If the player has what they are looking for, it really doesn't matter what he did previously."

This is 100% not true in my experience as someone who has worked inside MLB draft rooms. Plenty of comments about a kid having "one good day" at a showcase have been said about players, and some guys getting tagged as "showcase kids" in a negative connotation. I'm not saying it's fair. I'm saying that I've sat in draft rooms and I've been paid to work as a draft analyst and that's what is said. You can choose to believe me or not, but that's the deal.

My position is as clear as always: Perfect Game's All-American, National Championship, and Jupiter tournaments are vital for athletes to get the exposure they need on the national stage. The smaller regional events are good to go to for your first time (and pay money) to get put on the map so you can be invited to the larger PG events.

Going to PG events when you throw 78 or don't have good expectations or understandings about how good you or your son may be is and will continue to be a waste of time and money. The problem is that PG is incentivized to not say this for obvious reasons. And AGAIN I am not saying PG or Jerry personally believes that people should throw their money away; Jerry says very specifically in this thread they should not. I am saying there is a moral hazard by setting up tons of smaller PG events (some that occur during NCAA blackout periods) and then saying that you shouldn't waste your money.

FURTHERMORE: I have put a number of people into professional baseball by editing simple videos together for my pitchers and having scouts call me on players and visit our facility. Christian Meister was drafted by the Cleveland Indians despite NOT PLAYING IN COLLEGE DURING HIS DRAFT YEAR. He did not attend any showcases aside from the private ones I held and one area scouting event for the Diamondbacks. 

The only thing - and I cannot stress enough, the ONLY THING - that matters is that you project to be a professional athlete. That is the only thing you can control. And if you are, then you need exposure to some degree. But any focus on exposure before then is a waste of time.

But you have to consider that pg is not only for pro ball. There are guys wasting money but there might be an 83 throwing 5"9 righty pitcher who uses PG to get into a D3 school. For him that money is not wasted even though he is not a pro athlete.

Dominik85 posted:

But you have to consider that pg is not only for pro ball. There are guys wasting money but there might be an 83 throwing 5"9 righty pitcher who uses PG to get into a D3 school. For him that money is not wasted even though he is not a pro athlete.

D3 coaches usually do not attend the larger PG events. There are excellent showcases for D3 players.

It is wise to find out where your skill level lies.

JMO

Kyle,

I very much enjoyed reading the link you provided.

For the record, I have much respect for what you, Cressy and Woolforth do.  I know arm care has to be at the forefront of any good velocity or pitching program.  If it isn't we have a problem.

At the same time everyone knows that those with the most velocity will always be at risk.  The flip side is they also tend to be among the most successful.

I will admit that I don't agree with every word in that blog.  But I sure understand why someone would.  Over all, I would guess we both think alike in many ways.  From a scientific or strength and conditioning viewpoint I would be at the infant stage compared to people like you.  However I'm old and have been working with pitchers for a long time.  Yes, concentrating a lot on velocity!  In all those years I have had one pitcher require surgery.  That was because his HS coach treated him like a pitching machine.  Actually my son also had TJSurgery, but anyone that knows what happened ain't blaming me for that one.

While I agree that no pitcher should be pitching competitively year around. I don't agree that all pitchers are working on the same time line.  Also it bothers me greatly when the youngest age groups are mentioned along with Perfect Game.   For 20 years we did practically nothing with players below HS age.  So, there really can't be any documentation of those type injuries pertaining to us.  We are starting to get more and more involved in youth baseball.  We want to use it as a platform to educate young kids and their parents.  We think we can actually help, but some want to claim we have evil motives.

I am surprised when I see that people name Perfect Game so often.  I read things like "The Perfect Game Generation" and don't understand.  Don't people realize there are far less kids playing in PG events than MANY other organizations.  And maybe the biggest difference is, for the most part, we actually know how many pitches and how many innings and how hard every pitch has been thrown at our events.  Of course, mistakes are made once in awhile.  

You know I have done so much research about TJ surgeries and Perfect Game connections it makes my head swim.  Yet, not one person has ever asked for any of that.  In fact, almost anyone could do the same research, it would just take a lot longer because they wouldn't have the same access to our database.  

Once again, thanks for that link and your opinions.  I think you really care and that is the most important thing there is.  All the best!

TPM,

You would be surprised how many small college coaches attend some of the events.  It even surprised me when I saw the number of DIII coaches that subscribe to CrossChecker.  It is a fairly economical way to find players when you don't have much of a recruiting budget.  Then the number of kids we see that end up playing small college baseball is kind of amazing.  I know most think we just care about Pro Prospects and DI players when they see the results.  But there's probably more that we see that end up in small colleges all over the country.  We really don't see very many players that simply can't play at the next level.  I don't think many of those type players want to go to our events.

Remember when Bill Clinton said under oath ...It depends on what the meaning of IS....IS. That was a terrible statement by a highly educated man, but most Americans bought it. Cressey is educated and knows what he is talking about and has a great track record. I don't know if I would tar and feather him just yet over a unpopular quote, that may just needs to be explained a little better.

PGStaff posted:

Kyle,

I very much enjoyed reading the link you provided.

For the record, I have much respect for what you, Cressy and Woolforth do.  I know arm care has to be at the forefront of any good velocity or pitching program.  If it isn't we have a problem.

At the same time everyone knows that those with the most velocity will always be at risk.  The flip side is they also tend to be among the most successful.

I will admit that I don't agree with every word in that blog.  But I sure understand why someone would.  Over all, I would guess we both think alike in many ways.  From a scientific or strength and conditioning viewpoint I would be at the infant stage compared to people like you.  However I'm old and have been working with pitchers for a long time.  Yes, concentrating a lot on velocity!  In all those years I have had one pitcher require surgery.  That was because his HS coach treated him like a pitching machine.  Actually my son also had TJSurgery, but anyone that knows what happened ain't blaming me for that one.

While I agree that no pitcher should be pitching competitively year around. I don't agree that all pitchers are working on the same time line.  Also it bothers me greatly when the youngest age groups are mentioned along with Perfect Game.   For 20 years we did practically nothing with players below HS age.  So, there really can't be any documentation of those type injuries pertaining to us.  We are starting to get more and more involved in youth baseball.  We want to use it as a platform to educate young kids and their parents.  We think we can actually help, but some want to claim we have evil motives.

I am surprised when I see that people name Perfect Game so often.  I read things like "The Perfect Game Generation" and don't understand.  Don't people realize there are far less kids playing in PG events than MANY other organizations.  And maybe the biggest difference is, for the most part, we actually know how many pitches and how many innings and how hard every pitch has been thrown at our events.  Of course, mistakes are made once in awhile.  

You know I have done so much research about TJ surgeries and Perfect Game connections it makes my head swim.  Yet, not one person has ever asked for any of that.  In fact, almost anyone could do the same research, it would just take a lot longer because they wouldn't have the same access to our database.  

Once again, thanks for that link and your opinions.  I think you really care and that is the most important thing there is.  All the best!

TPM,

You would be surprised how many small college coaches attend some of the events.  It even surprised me when I saw the number of DIII coaches that subscribe to CrossChecker.  It is a fairly economical way to find players when you don't have much of a recruiting budget.  Then the number of kids we see that end up playing small college baseball is kind of amazing.  I know most think we just care about Pro Prospects and DI players when they see the results.  But there's probably more that we see that end up in small colleges all over the country.  We really don't see very many players that simply can't play at the next level.  I don't think many of those type players want to go to our events.

You know that I am glad that you addressed that because I have read quite often that if a player wanted to attend a D3 program a D1 major event or showcase was not for them. Thats not to say that the academic showcases are not a good fit. I think we dont do enough here to help our members whose players fall into that category.  

You and I know that D3 coaches do not attend many D1 events. I have gotten lots of pms asking where would be the best showcase to attend for a D3 player. So I tell them that if a player is interested in attending a D3 program, its best to attend events that would be better suited for them and their folks pocketbook, along with a referral to our parents of D3 players.  Showcases are costly and so is the travel associated so its best to choose wisely.  Thank you to all those that jump in when a question is asked, because I admit I still have very little knowledge about D3 recruiting.

While we are on the subject, I would like to hear more about those college guys who displayed professional skills and could have been drafted out of HS, but went to college. These are the real stories that people should know about, because in all reality, for most players, college should always be the focus even for players that arent college material, there are plenty of MLB guys who came out of JUCO programs.  I am rooting for all of the college boys who will be the next first rounders, not necessarily the few HS guys who still have years ahead of them in milb.  The good thing is that their money will make life a whole lot better for them to grow up in.  

Can you tell I am 100% for a player to head to college first? You bet!!!

We have to remember who our audience is and where they are headed, for most its often not even D1 let alone professional ball and never will be.

JMO

All I can tell you about is what we experienced.  Our older son had one of the busiest 'big recruiting' summers you could imagine.  Jr. Sunbelt, PG National, USA team, TeamOne (another showcase at the time), Stanford Camp, AAU Nationals, Area Codes, AFLAC All American game.  Probably one or two other things.

These things all snowballed - at first he woulda done half of them, perhaps.  But then one fed or led to another 'can't miss that' opportunity.  Thats what people kept telling us.

And when all of that went incredibly well - the pressure mounted from several directions to get him to Jupiter in the late Fall.  He was worn out - I was worn out.  But he ramped up again and went.  Did fine, but he was tired.

He didn't need to be 'discovered' anymore, he just needed to train and be ready for a good HS season - which he didn't particularly have.  Tired still?  I don't know.  Mentally for sure.  But physically?  Don't know but some scouts thought he was too tired.  They were probably right.

I should have managed it much, MUCH better.  10 years later just after he broke into the big leagues and seemed on the verge of sticking, he had TJ.  No way for me to tie it directly to any one thing - except I do know we succumbed to the hype and pressure and 'you promised' too, too much back then.  We just did.  My fault, no one else's.

Now I read this race begins in 8th or 9th grade and no one can pull it back.  I think(?) some will see it differently in a few years.  I do.

I don't blame anyone for this - except maybe me.  I should have managed it better.  Mr. Giolito is/was smarter than me.  But to say the pressure doesn't come is incorrect.  It came big-time, from many directions.

This is an 'advice' site - one where parents or players can read about all experiences and all angles.  I think Eric Cressey is right about his main point.  I base that not only on his reputation, but on tying it to our own experiences.  This doesn't have to be specific to a top-recruit/player.  It can be the parent of a potential D2/D3 pitcher trying to be seen at every opportunity just to get to the edges of college ball.  I've seen this happen in that situation too.

I am not upset at anyone.  He got more than I coulda dreamed about - Stanford scholarship, drafted, ultimately made it to the big leagues.  But  I coulda done better by him.

If you're open to listening, do a better job than me.

TPM,

No doubt that college is the best route for most.  Just what is best for most, isn't best for everyone.

Yes, you are correct, there are events that are very selective for DI and Pro prospects.  Very few of those players will end up at a DIII college.  But there are other events and players that have many players who will  end up at smaller colleges.  Actually the biggest scouting attraction in baseball is Jupiter.  The last few years we have seen more and more DIII coaches attending.  Sure there are first Rd draft picks and power college program recruits, but there are also many very good players that will end up at DII, DIII, NAIA and Jucos.  It is a great place for small college coaches to find talent.

Justbaseball,

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.  Your son went to all those events, he then played at Stanford, he was drafted, and then he made it to the Big Leagues.  Then he had TJ surgery.  And now you are thinking you made some big mistakes?  Is that because of the TJ surgery?  Surely you're not thinking Jupiter 10 years ago was the reason he had TJ surgery?  

Also, I don't understand the "you promised" comment.  Maybe I read that wrong, but who promised anything.  I know I have never promised anyone anything outside our control.

Anyway, I think you did very well with both your sons that play baseball.  You should be very proud.  Your older son is to this day someone I have a ton of respect for.   Many would have had a hard time coming back from that injury in the Cape.   There are millions that would like to follow that path you took to get the results your sons have had.

I definitely agree that it is not necessary to do everything, but it is a good thing if you're wanted.  In fact, it is a very good thing.  These days it is kid of rare to see a pitcher in Jupiter that was in our All American game.  Also rare if we see a pitcher there that played for the USA team in late Aug/Sept. It is extremely rare to see any of those pitchers along with those that pitched in Jupiter at our January World Showcase.  So as near as we can tell, the top pitchers are not showing up at all the biggest events these days.

People need to find a good path.  There is no such thing as a "can't miss" event. There are just some that are better than others. The truth is there are some Major League All Stars that never attended any of the events mentioned.

Is there something going on here that I'm not aware of?

justbaseball posted:

All I can tell you about is what we experienced.  Our older son had one of the busiest 'big recruiting' summers you could imagine.  Jr. Sunbelt, PG National, USA team, TeamOne (another showcase at the time), Stanford Camp, AAU Nationals, Area Codes, AFLAC All American game.  Probably one or two other things.

These things all snowballed - at first he woulda done half of them, perhaps.  But then one fed or led to another 'can't miss that' opportunity.  Thats what people kept telling us.

And when all of that went incredibly well - the pressure mounted from several directions to get him to Jupiter in the late Fall.  He was worn out - I was worn out.  But he ramped up again and went.  Did fine, but he was tired.

He didn't need to be 'discovered' anymore, he just needed to train and be ready for a good HS season - which he didn't particularly have.  Tired still?  I don't know.  Mentally for sure.  But physically?  Don't know but some scouts thought he was too tired.  They were probably right.

I should have managed it much, MUCH better.  10 years later just after he broke into the big leagues and seemed on the verge of sticking, he had TJ.  No way for me to tie it directly to any one thing - except I do know we succumbed to the hype and pressure and 'you promised' too, too much back then.  We just did.  My fault, no one else's.

Now I read this race begins in 8th or 9th grade and no one can pull it back.  I think(?) some will see it differently in a few years.  I do.

I don't blame anyone for this - except maybe me.  I should have managed it better.  Mr. Giolito is/was smarter than me.  But to say the pressure doesn't come is incorrect.  It came big-time, from many directions.

This is an 'advice' site - one where parents or players can read about all experiences and all angles.  I think Eric Cressey is right about his main point.  I base that not only on his reputation, but on tying it to our own experiences.  This doesn't have to be specific to a top-recruit/player.  It can be the parent of a potential D2/D3 pitcher trying to be seen at every opportunity just to get to the edges of college ball.  I've seen this happen in that situation too.

I am not upset at anyone.  He got more than I coulda dreamed about - Stanford scholarship, drafted, ultimately made it to the big leagues.  But  I coulda done better by him.

If you're open to listening, do a better job than me.

Awesome post.  Thanks for sharing your experience.  I get quite a few emails and snail mail for baseball and football recruiting and showcases for my 2017.  I'm trying to be very selective on what I spend my money. 

PGStaff - Thank you for the kind words re/ our sons - I sincerely appreciate them. 

I need to make something clear.  Perfect Game is absolutely the best showcase operator out there.  I give them credit for ‘discovering’ our older son on a national level.  They draw bushels of scouts and their events are well run.  All of that is a fact.  The ONLY things we are discussing and perhaps disagreeing about are timing, age groups, who should and shouldn’t showcase and how you can manage your pitcher son better than me.

PG - I think I wrote several times in that post above that I wasn’t blaming anyone for anything and in particular I wrote that there is no way for me to tie our son’s TJ to any one thing.  I also wrote that the outcomes for our sons far exceeded anything I dreamed about.  I am not looking back disappointed. I am looking in the rear view mirror with more experiences under my belt and reflecting on things that I/we did (good and bad) and proposing that IMO there is/was a better way.

When I read that a tremendously well respected trainer says that showcasing/playing in the Winter is probably not a good idea for young pitchers and when I tie that to what we experienced, I have to agree!  And when I think of how our sons added velocity and were fresh and ready-to-go in the Spring by taking time off in the winter to finally properly train as pro ball players - I have to agree even more!!

It is clear (and I accept) that the recruiting time line is earlier now.  But if your son is super talented, I say there is even more incentive to wait until you’re sure you have the right college fit and I say that there’s good reason to hold back as other parents have figured out to do - and to not be in a rush to do too much, too soon and too often.

justbaseball posted:

PGStaff - Thank you for the kind words re/ our sons - I sincerely appreciate them. 

I need to make something clear.  Perfect Game is absolutely the best showcase operator out there.  I give them credit for ‘discovering’ our older son on a national level.  They draw bushels of scouts and their events are well run.  All of that is a fact.  The ONLY things we are discussing and perhaps disagreeing about are timing, age groups, who should and shouldn’t showcase and how you can manage your pitcher son better than me.

PG - I think I wrote several times in that post above that I wasn’t blaming anyone for anything and in particular I wrote that there is no way for me to tie our son’s TJ to any one thing.  I also wrote that the outcomes for our sons far exceeded anything I dreamed about.  I am not looking back disappointed. I am looking in the rear view mirror with more experiences under my belt and reflecting on things that I/we did (good and bad) and proposing that IMO there is/was a better way.

When I read that a tremendously well respected trainer says that showcasing/playing in the Winter is probably not a good idea for young pitchers and when I tie that to what we experienced, I have to agree!  And when I think of how our sons added velocity and were fresh and ready-to-go in the Spring by taking time off in the winter to finally properly train as pro ball players - I have to agree even more!!

It is clear (and I accept) that the recruiting time line is earlier now.  But if your son is super talented, I say there is even more incentive to wait until you’re sure you have the right college fit and I say that there’s good reason to hold back as other parents have figured out to do - and to not be in a rush to do too much, too soon and too often.

If what you took from the article is that "showcasing/playing in the Winter is probably not a good idea," then, with the caveat that the idea is a significant period of rest whether it be Winter, Fall or (say in Iowa), Spring, there would be no controversy. I think every reasonable person would agree. That's not the contention that is at issue. It's Cressey's statement that:

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

This demeans what PG, PBR, Head First and others do by, 1) making a blatantly ridiculous statement and 2) seeming to make the assumption that it is the sole responsibility of these marketers of useless showcases to mandate a particular rest schedule to all young players. There's certainly no controversy that rest is important, but that's up to the parents and players. There are a lot of bars on my way home from work. It wouldn't be the liquor industry's fault if I felt pressured by their advertising to stop and have a drink at every one of them.

Cressey also - and I don't want to assume too much from his statements - seems to make the assumption that the showcase/tournament schedule is all about getting kids to pro ball and seems to ignore the fact that the vast majority of participants aren't thinking mlb. They're thinking of the next step available to them - college.

I don't think I criticized any showcase operator.  In fact, I gave one great praise!!  And I agree with your assertion that a bar on your drive home isn't responsible for you choosing to get drunk either.  A tournament in Florida in December after a busy summer was certainly my/our decision...and in retrospect was my mistake!  I believe I have said that at least 2 or 3 times!!

We already discussed the one statement you are locked onto.  We are in agreement about the 'discovery' number.  I've said that already too!!  Others make broad/generalized claims that I don't buy either.  We are not locking into those.  However, I don't think Cressey is demeaning anyone either - at least I didn't read it that way but sometimes the written word can be interpreted very differently than intended.  He is saying there wasn't a need to risk the pitcher's arm by doing the December event - that the player would have been discovered anyways, just a 1/2 year later.  My takeaway is his advice about timing - and on that I agree when I connect it to what I saw and experienced then and now.  In retrospect, our older son's evaluation by scouts in his HS season was far more impactful than their evaluation of his pitching at an event in December.  I believe I disrupted a better training regimen to have him pitch in a December event and possibly(?) adding to the fatigue he seemed to have in the Spring.

Again, thats on ME!! Not on any showcase operator.  (Isn't that about 4 times now?)  I wish I had been locked into Eric Cressey back then, rather than locked into people telling me I had to get him to an event in December.  I am crystal clear in my thinking about that now.  But that is 100% on me.

We are giving different perspectives to parents of young players on here - thats all.   If you or anyone else don't wanna account for Cressey's comments or if you think mine are irrelevant - we have no problem there either.  I am simply stating my opinion, based on my own experiences.  I would (and did when I had a 2nd chance) do it differently.  I'm pretty pleased with how that turned out too.

justbaseball posted:

I don't think I criticized any showcase operator.  In fact, I gave one great praise!!  And I agree with your assertion that a bar on your drive home isn't responsible for you choosing to get drunk either.  A tournament in Florida in December after a busy summer was certainly my/our decision...and in retrospect was my mistake!  I believe I have said that at least 2 or 3 times!!

We already discussed the one statement you are locked onto.  We are in agreement about the 'discovery' number.  I've said that already too!!  Others make broad/generalized claims that I don't buy either.  We are not locking into those.  However, I don't think Cressey is demeaning anyone either - at least I didn't read it that way but sometimes the written word can be interpreted very differently than intended.  He is saying there wasn't a need to risk the pitcher's arm by doing the December event - that the player would have been discovered anyways, just a 1/2 year later.  My takeaway is his advice about timing - and on that I agree when I connect it to what I saw and experienced then and now.  In retrospect, our older son's evaluation by scouts in his HS season was far more impactful than their evaluation of his pitching at an event in December.  I believe I disrupted a better training regimen to have him pitch in a December event and possibly(?) adding to the fatigue he seemed to have in the Spring.

Again, thats on ME!! Not on any showcase operator.  (Isn't that about 4 times now?)  I wish I had been locked into Eric Cressey back then, rather than locked into people telling me I had to get him to an event in December.  I am crystal clear in my thinking about that now.  But that is 100% on me.

We are giving different perspectives to parents of young players on here - thats all.   If you or anyone else don't wanna account for Cressey's comments or if you think mine are irrelevant - we have no problem there either.  I am simply stating my opinion, based on my own experiences.  I would (and did when I had a 2nd chance) do it differently now.  I'm pretty pleased with how that turned out too.

 

Here's the problem with where we're at right now - we're arguing about things that we don't at all disagree on. My point was just that I believe that you're defending a position (rest is necessary) that I don't see anyone has attacked. My point od contention is simply that Cressey dismisses showcases categorically by basically saying that they produce injuries and serve no purpose. I'm only arguing that aspect of his article. I certainly don't disagree with his opinion that Winter should be used for something other than showcase/travel, though I wouldn't necessarily single out Winter specifically.

So, given that, I guess the question is, do you support his position that "no one is 'discovered' at a showcase and that all of those kids who end up signing NLI's would have had the same opportunities if they DID NOT showcase? I don't think they would. That's the ONLY bone I have to pick with Cressey's comments. If I have somehow come across as supporting the opinion that players should play/showcase year 'round, I apologize for my lack of clarity.

Again, as to all of the positions you have posted in this thread, I really don't think I disagree at all.