We agree about his comment - "I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase."
I think I've said that now 2 or 3 times as well. Maybe I need to apologize about my own clarity?
justbaseball posted:We agree about his comment - "I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase."
I think I've said that now 2 or 3 times as well. Maybe I need to apologize about my own clarity?
No, no. I re-read your post after I posted mine and realized you had just basically said the exact same thing. That's on me. I apologize.
Justball,
i'm more confused, did I read correctly? Your son attended a Perfect Game event in December? Not according to our records. Could you be thinking the event in Jupiter was n December. That event was actually held Oct. 24th, that year. In fact, it is always in October. And the month of October has always been an active baseball month in California. Though, I know there are pitchers that are shut down before that. Actually most colleges are just winding down their fall schedule at that time. Many are playing their final scrimmages at that time and those can be pretty competitive. That means pitchers pitching in competitive games.
I have nothing against anyone... Just that the statement he has only known of one player that was ever discovered at a showcase. And that could easily be a true statement by itself. However, I have known thousands that have been discovered at a showcase. And every college coach that attends certain events has discovered players at a showcase. So has pretty much every Scouting Department. And players and parents, even some that post right here, know where they were discovered by those trying to recruit them. None of this takes away from the expertise someone might have. It just kind of surprises me that he only knows of one player ever that was discovered at a showcase. I know of many Major League players that were discovered at a showcase and many of those players have said that.
It's probably another topic all together. What is being discovered? In some way, every player is discovered somewhere. But is being discovered by the local small college and being discovered by a Vanderbilt the same thing? We discover lots of outstanding players every year. When that happens others then discover them. If there are a hundred or more college recruiters at an event with a couple hundred extremely talented kids, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a lot of players are going to be discovered for the first time by somebody.
When I read the article, I do not consider events such as Jupiter a showcase.
I got booed on another topic because a dad came to ask questions regarding his son who just finished his freshman year and attending some local showcase this weekend. He asked about when his son should throw a 40 or so pitch bull pen before the showcase. He stated that the schedule on day one will be showing skills (purpose of a showcase) throw a bullpen, throw from infield, outfield, 60, etc. Then there will be games the next day. I questioned this. Thats a lot of throwing off the mound in a few days. The dad is looking forward to finding out his velocity.
IMO, this is what I am gathering that Cressey is referring to, and for the life of me I don't see how anyone does get discovered at these type of events early in HS. Although this one is occurring 2 weeks after HS has ended, the majority of these events occur after tournament season ends in fall.
As far as my own player, as a junior, he attended jupiter in the fall shut down then attended a college camp and one PG showcase in Ft Myers in jupiter but here in FL the HS season starts in february. And if you dont know how to properly manage this, your pitcher can get hurt. He had just attended Jupiter tourney and identified in the 90 group, and seen by the pitching coach from Clemson. In June, pretty early in the travel season, he pitched in a tourney out in Omaha, and a few days later at the PG National. I am not sure that was a wise decision on anyone's part. He really didn't do as well as he should have and that was the last showcase he ever attended.
While I realize recruiting begins much earlier and he was older, the mention of all of this not being healthy for young pitchers makes a lot of sense to me. We see players much younger beginning to attend more college camps and showcases AFTER the summer and fall tournament season ends and actually extending outdoors into cooler months. Isn't this, according to Cressey when a pitcher should be shut down?
I think we are all on the same page as far as being smart and using common sense and no one is forcing anyone to do anything. But the current atmosphere of landing a scholarship earlier and earlier, combined with the dreams of being drafted and getting rich has created situations for some where all intellect goes out the window.
Argue all you want, but more and more youth pitchers are hurt before they reach their senior HS season.
JMO
Don't be more confused PG. Ok, late October - I was only going off memory. Still, he was worn out. Had to ramp up yet again after a busy summer. Shoudn't have gone. Others should think about their pitcher and is he really in good shape to do these things - or not?
Then there was the pressure to go to World Showcase - was it December? January? Ft. Meyers? We finally had to say no despite the phone calls. Glad we did.
IMO, college Fall ball is not that conducive to pitcher health either. Glad our younger son got to take it off his senior year. Our 2 sons - now pro pitchers - are completely shut down beginning in September and are then working on core strength. Not back in the bullpen until mid-to-late January depending on when they are going to Spring Training (mid February to early March depending on which camp). With this routine, they have been much stronger, including velocity bumps, at the beginning of the season and throughout.
TPM posted:
Argue all you want, but more and more youth pitchers are hurt before they reach their senior HS season.
JMO
While I agree with a lot you say, I have to ask if this statement is actually true. I believe there have always been too many kids hurt, but no more today than ever before. This is not a statement for the status quo. Honestly, though, we throw this around as if it's a fact and yet no one offers any support for it. The only statistic I ever see used in support is that surgeons are reporting that they see younger and younger patients. However, the fact that more players seek treatment than did in past times doesn't prove anything more than that more players seek treatment than they used to. It wasn't that long ago that a blown UCL would never have reached even a general practitioner, let alone a surgeon. Parents simply didn't run their kid to the doctor for a hurt elbow - they just stopped pitching.
To be clear, I am all for current efforts to make pitching more arm safe, I just am not sure it's at all correct to think that there has been some dramatic increase in arm injuries. I'm not seeing it.
Interesting article on ESPN by Tony Blengino about the 2006 draft. At the time, he was assistant scouting director for the Brewers. http://espn.go.com/mlb/insider...e-cod-play-draft-day Subscription required for the full article, but there was this tidbit about Jupiter:
"In late October, while two clubs are duking it out for the World Series title, the scouting personnel of the other 28 teams descend en masse to Jupiter, Florida, for the World Wood Bat Championship, featuring all of the best high school talent in the country. Games are on 15 or more fields, from dawn to dusk, for four looooooong days.
Scouting staffs need to devise master plans to see all the talent on display. Golf carts are rented to race from field to field, and if you're lucky, you find yourself at a cluster of four fields featuring high-level talent on each. You are not making final decisions on prospects -- far from it -- but it's a unique opportunity to prioritize players for the following spring."
roothog66 posted:TPM posted:
Argue all you want, but more and more youth pitchers are hurt before they reach their senior HS season.
JMO
While I agree with a lot you say, I have to ask if this statement is actually true. I believe there have always been too many kids hurt, but no more today than ever before. This is not a statement for the status quo. Honestly, though, we throw this around as if it's a fact and yet no one offers any support for it. The only statistic I ever see used in support is that surgeons are reporting that they see younger and younger patients. However, the fact that more players seek treatment than did in past times doesn't prove anything more than that more players seek treatment than they used to. It wasn't that long ago that a blown UCL would never have reached even a general practitioner, let alone a surgeon. Parents simply didn't run their kid to the doctor for a hurt elbow - they just stopped pitching.
To be clear, I am all for current efforts to make pitching more arm safe, I just am not sure it's at all correct to think that there has been some dramatic increase in arm injuries. I'm not seeing it.
When your son goes to a top ortho surgeon and he says that there is a rise across the board in all sport injuries you don't need anymore proof than that. More and more kids are into sports than ever before, due to the opportunities for both men and women. So that would mean a rise in injuries as well.
And I have been here for a long time and the posts asking about I juries has increased and not just the usual aches and pains.
Very interesting topic that I have been following. I can honestly say I agree with most everything that has been posted. I certainly agree that kids should take time off to train, but I also understand the desire to have your son pitch at the big events because it can be life changing. My son is just finishing his freshman year at LSU. He is also 5 months post TJ surgery that caused him to miss his entire freshman year. I have chronicled his journey here before, so I won't go in detail again. I will say that he was "discovered" at a PG event. It was during the summer and was a tournament as opposed to a showcase. When you are from small town USA, it is much more difficult to get seen. How many times has it been said on this very board not to follow the "if I'm good enough, they will find me" advice? I think this fact may be some of the driving force that makes parents make some decisions that they look back on and realize may or may not have been the best decision. I think that is what justbaseball is saying. He learned some things with his first son that caused him to do things a bit different with son #2. I only have one son. I had very little idea what to do. There were a few talented players older than my son and I did ask their parents for some advice. Every decision we made was filtered through the "when is enough, enough" lens. My son was no different than most on this site. He aspired to play at the highest level, that being professional baseball. He was first identified during the summer between his sophomore and junior year by a mid level D1 school after their PC saw him pitch one inning while the coach was there to evaluate a teammate. I guess we could have said, hey we have a scholarship so we are gonna shut down and focus on high school and training. His desire was to play at a larger D1 school. I felt like he had the talent, but I was also worried that I was "that dad" looking through my rose-colored glasses. We took nothing for granted. We visited the school and they made a very nice offer. In all honesty, it was very difficult to look past the bird in the hand while waiting for the one in the bush. The kids have their dream, but its my job as his parent not to let him let a good thing get away. This was our delima. We sat on that scholarship offer for a year. The big in-state university had seen him a little later in the summer and asked him to wait until they could see him the next summer. He did attend a camp that fall at his dream school, and they liked what they saw, but also told him they needed to see him the next summer in game situations. So it was a gut-wrenching waiting game. On one hand I had his travel coach and many others telling me to wait it out that he would get better offers, but he also had a good offer from a good school in hand. There in lies the delima. So you continue to go out and compete to try to get the better offer from the bigger program. In our case, it did work out that he got a great offer from his dream school. I realize this is rare and he is very fortunate. Did chasing the dream cost him TJ surgery? I don't know. Its very possible he would have had the surgery without the summer and fall ball. I can tell you he never had issues in the summer of fall, only in school ball. So I just don't know. Would I change anything if I had a do over? Again, I don't know. My son's story isn't written. He hopefully will recover 100% and have the opportunity to continue chasing his dream of playing professional baseball. At least now I am pretty sure he has the talent. The issue going forward is can he get and stay healthy. So I really am a fence straddler on this issue as I can identify with both sides of the argument.
TPM posted:roothog66 posted:TPM posted:
Argue all you want, but more and more youth pitchers are hurt before they reach their senior HS season.
JMO
While I agree with a lot you say, I have to ask if this statement is actually true. I believe there have always been too many kids hurt, but no more today than ever before. This is not a statement for the status quo. Honestly, though, we throw this around as if it's a fact and yet no one offers any support for it. The only statistic I ever see used in support is that surgeons are reporting that they see younger and younger patients. However, the fact that more players seek treatment than did in past times doesn't prove anything more than that more players seek treatment than they used to. It wasn't that long ago that a blown UCL would never have reached even a general practitioner, let alone a surgeon. Parents simply didn't run their kid to the doctor for a hurt elbow - they just stopped pitching.
To be clear, I am all for current efforts to make pitching more arm safe, I just am not sure it's at all correct to think that there has been some dramatic increase in arm injuries. I'm not seeing it.
When your son goes to a top ortho surgeon and he says that there is a rise across the board in all sport injuries you don't need anymore proof than that. More and more kids are into sports than ever before, due to the opportunities for both men and women. So that would mean a rise in injuries as well.
And I have been here for a long time and the posts asking about I juries has increased and not just the usual aches and pains.
I see you may have missed my point on the logic problem with this argument. More parents now seek out treatment for arm injuries. This hasn't been true for the vast majority of the history of youth sports. So, of course, as more patients seek treatment, doctors see more injuries. As an analogy, you can't use a decrease in the number of ulcer surgeries as proof that ulcers are on the decline. The treatment regimen has changed. Not that long ago, only a select few injured pitchers would have seen an ortho. The common story was of the pitcher who "threw his arm out" and stopped pitching. They didn't go to the doctor, they just stopped pitching. So, if someone can show statistics other than doctor's statements that they see more patients, you have some proof. I say that realizing that it's a catch 22. Here's where I think we create our own problem. We assume some rise in injury rates, so we look at how things were done and the way things are currently being done and assume that it is the difference in the two that causes the rise in injuries. This is a failing viewpoint. Wouldn't it be better to simply say that pitching has always produced injuries. Ask why this is and then look for ways to reduce the risk?
Statistically, about the only way to even analyze whether arm injuries are increasing is mlb's dl. What we see there is a statistically insignificant decrease in days lost to arm injuries. However, as treatment options evolve, days lost decrease anyway, so even this is not determinative.
It's also logically not useful to use this board and your perceived experience on it as proof of an increase in injury rates. I've been on this board since about 2007 and haven't been slapped in the face with any real feeling that injuries have increased. Even id there were more reports on this board, there are a couple of logic problems using that as support. First, the number of members on this board is constantly increasing and, I'm sure is exponentially a larger group than was here 10 years ago. Second, it's a select group. There are probably a large number of posters who specifically found this board because they were searching for information for their injured sons. So, this is a group that would naturally have a far larger percentage of arm injuries than a general selection of youth players
To try and sum up my argument, I believe its better to admit that pitching injuries are higher than they need to be and, in fact, have always been higher than they need to be. With proper research and testing, we have a greater ability to do something about that than ever before. If we spend too much time trying to figure out how changes in the past few years have increased injury rates because we've made a false assumption, then we could be wasting time.
Ok let's try this again, let me reword this. There is a rise in youth injuries in every sport. There are more and more opportunities for kids to play more and more often which increases injury. Not just HS players but grade school age.
FWIW I never mentioned professional ball.
Done.
Root, I hate to go all scientific on you BUT....the numbers support TPM's assertion that there has been an increase. HOWEVER, I will agree that the numbers say nothing about WHY it happens, just that the numbers have increased.
If you go back and look at the amount of children playing travel ball 20 years ago or even 10 years ago there are WAY more kids now playing. There are way more articles about the death of rec ball, and WAY more articles about how travel ball has become a watered down daddy ball mess of a sport.
For arguments sake let's say there were exactly 2,000 kids playing Travel baseball 10 years ago. Let's say only 1% ever had arm issues, that is 20 kids. Let's say today that 5,000 kids play Travel Baseball, that 1% comes out to 50 kids. The percentage of injuries may not have increased, but the actual number of injuries has increased.
TPM posted:Ok let's try this again, let me reword this. There is a rise in youth injuries in every sport. There are more and more opportunities for kids to play more and more often which increases injury. Not just HS players but grade school age.
Done.
It's a logic problem. You're supporting your statement that youth sports injuries are up with "facts" that aren't facts at all. The word of your son's ortho that he sees more patients or the notion that you perceive more reports of injuries from participation on an internet message board (do they even call them that anymore?) doesn't make for a fact that ends the discussion. You act like you just made an irrefutable argument that is followed by a mic drop.
Roothog,
I agree with your logic 100%. What are your thoughts on why it is not received well by others?
CaCO3Girl posted:Root, I hate to go all scientific on you BUT....the numbers support TPM's assertion that there has been an increase. HOWEVER, I will agree that the numbers say nothing about WHY it happens, just that the numbers have increased.
If you go back and look at the amount of children playing travel ball 20 years ago or even 10 years ago there are WAY more kids now playing. There are way more articles about the death of rec ball, and WAY more articles about how travel ball has become a watered down daddy ball mess of a sport.
For arguments sake let's say there were exactly 2,000 kids playing Travel baseball 10 years ago. Let's say only 1% ever had arm issues, that is 20 kids. Let's say today that 5,000 kids play Travel Baseball, that 1% comes out to 50 kids. The percentage of injuries may not have increased, but the actual number of injuries has increased.
CaCO3,
You'll have to tell me what numbers you're talking about. Can you cite some numbers? Remember, the whole point of my argument is that increases in surgery rates or an increase in the number of patients a surgeon sees cannot be used to logically support an increase in injury rates.
Plus, your above argument implies that the only injuries that have occurred in the past came strictly out of travel ball. Can you support that argument? Can you verify that there are more kids playing baseball period? The problem is - and I hope you can see this - that your calculation above relies on the conclusion of the argument. It depends on it being a fact that travel ball causes injuries and other ball (rec, American Legion, etc.) does not. Unless this is true, an increase in the number of "travel" players without some showing of an increase in all baseball players, does not support the calculation. Are you implying that there are more kids playing baseball than there were 20 years ago? Maybe that is true and, if so, would be verifiable.
Regardless, my argument is based on injury rates, not total injuries. I am also assuming that TPM by saying injuries are on the rise meant rates as well and not total injuries.
To be clear, though, I'm not advocating that there isn't a problem. My contention is simply that the problem isn't a new one and by assuming that it is, we are possibly wasting time looking in the wrong places for answers. I think ASMI, for example, falls into this trap sometimes. I think Cressey may have done the same. However, when you look at the work guys like Boddy, Wolforth, and Sullivan are doing you can see that they aren't working from this premise. They aren't looking to any unverified increase in injury rates. they are looking at ways to better arm care period. They are searching for arm care solutions without the burden of an assumption that may or may not even be true. Notice here I admit that it's possible arm injuries are on the rise, but it isn't provable and, no, scientifically, there are no numbers to support that argument.
There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
real green posted:Roothog,
I agree with your logic 100%. What are your thoughts on why it is not received well by others?
I'm not sure. I think mainly it's just that very credible people like Andrews make the same mistake and view things only from their own personal perspective. When Andrews started seeing more young patients I just don't think it occurred to him that the baseball scene has changed and that those who never would have even thought about scheduling an appointment with him now do. I think that fact alone is a good sign that we treat arm care far more seriously than in the past. This may also be a product of the travel ball/showcase era. Now, unlike in the past, parents see a reason to fix a bum arm. IN the past, they may have said, "so your arm hurts and you can't pitch anymore, kid? That sucks. Put some ice on it. You'll live."
Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may change your opinion.
roothog66 posted:real green posted:Roothog,
I agree with your logic 100%. What are your thoughts on why it is not received well by others?
Now, unlike in the past, parents see a reason to fix a bum arm. IN the past, they may have said, "so your arm hurts and you can't pitch anymore, kid? That sucks. Put some ice on it. You'll live."
I agree with statement 100%. I knew of no one who ever went to the Dr. through the mid 90's due to a sore elbow. The higher you went the less chance you would even say anything to the staff due to the fact it would land you on the bench. Further more, I knew of MANY players with sore elbows from LL through Junior College. Ice and advil to get through the season.
I love the scene from the original movie, "The Bad News Bears." When the stud (girl) pitcher couldn't get through a big game because her elbow hurt. That movie was made in 1976! This isn't new....
Today that girl is rushed off to the sport specific ortho. Spends thousands of $'s on medical expenses. Add some PT.
Root,
I live in a place where every sport is played 365 days year round. My daughters BF sons football team has started football practice before football practice begins this summer.
I stand by my position.
I remember throwing games in high school when I couldn't even feel my arm. Now, I take my kid to a chiropractor before every start and constantly ask for updates on any pain he's feeling. Heck, when I threw the only question was "can you go in the next game?" You were expected to pitch in pain or at least go out there and try. Nobody cared if my arm hurt unless it actually stopped me from throwing. We didn't have Boddy. We had Coach Bullwinkle: "Take a salt tablet (because that was the cure for everything) and get your @$$ out there! It don't hurt that much, ya crybaby!"
roothog66 posted:Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may change your opinion.
I have looked into all 3 you reference & I can tell you what my opinion is. Again, this is simply my opinion. The best thing you can do with a weighted baseball is to bring it close by to a wooded area, turn towards the wooded area & throw it as far into the wooded area as you can & then leave it there. Throwing a weighted baseball can result in a measurable increase in velocity in a youth level player because they are a YOUTH LEVEL PLAYER. I could measure the same increase if I fed them Captain Crunch & wanted to correlate that to velocity because a 15 year old went from 75 to 80 in a year . As far as injury prevention, perhaps possible if the ball is not released from the hand (Tom House) but I feel the risk of injury by incorrect use far outweighs the possible benefit.
Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action.
TPM posted:Root,
I live in a place where every sport is played 365 days year round. My daughters BF sons football team has started football practice before football practice begins this summer.
I stand by my position.
If your point is that they shouldn't play year 'round, we don't have a disagreement. If your point is that we need to get better at arm care, I also agree. My only contention with you is in the details of the premise that we often start the issue with. Really, a small thing compared to the big picture.
Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Steve A, welcome to the site. You have pointed out some areas of concern (ok, "flat out wrong"). I am genuinely curious as to what you think would be considered the staples of a good program for young players, say 12-17, to be working to gain arm (and related) health, velocity, strength, etc.
roothog66 posted:I remember throwing games in high school when I couldn't even feel my arm. Now, I take my kid to a chiropractor before every start and constantly ask for updates on any pain he's feeling. Heck, when I threw the only question was "can you go in the next game?" You were expected to pitch in pain or at least go out there and try. Nobody cared if my arm hurt unless it actually stopped me from throwing. We didn't have Boddy. We had Coach Bullwinkle: "Take a salt tablet (because that was the cure for everything) and get your @$$ out there! It don't hurt that much, ya crybaby!"
I think we had the same coach, where did you play? Wait just kidding, that is how every coach I knew handled it!!
Steve A. posted:roothog66 posted:Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may
Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action.
Respectfully, I think you completely miss benefit of weighted balls if you think it's based on strengthening the arm for velocity. What weighted balls do is strengthen the muscles that support the ucl, which doesn't make you throw harder - because you're correct about where velocity comes from - but, rather, allows the arm to handle throwing at higher velocities. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference. Further, most velocity gains verified are within programs lasting from 8-11 weeks. Velocity gains over that short a period of time cannot be attributed to youth growth.
This has been an excellent thread to demonstrate just how many different theories and views that exist about arm injuries in baseball and what can explain them. Obviously the times have changed significantly when it comes to youth baseball and the road toward trying to play in college or the pros. Would the old legends like Ryan and Drysdale have held up like they did had they been brought up in this era?
Many of us with sons on that road are trying to give them the best opportunities to make it there, and these days, it seems harder than ever to get there. From the rising number of MLB pitchers throwing in mid 90's to the elite college programs with pitchers doing likewise, it is no wonder why so many parents and kids are focused on pitching velocity as the ticket to the next level. Truly it is sad in those cases where kids overdid it and ruined their arms before they even got the chance to play college baseball. The hardest thrower on my sons' 12U team cannot even throw anymore as a 16 year old after labrum surgery. But I blame his parents for moving him to a 13U/14U travel team and coach focused on winning tourney trophies at any cost.
Maybe someday one of these "experts" will figure out what the answer is, but for now, it is up to us parents to make sure (1) our sons are playing on travel teams with coaches who place the priority on player development and safety over winning, (2) we limit how much of the year our sons are playing baseball to allow for some shutdown time and arm rest, and (3) we accept that not all of our sons may have the arm and capacity to pitch at an elite level and focus instead on getting them into the right school and situation where they can succeed in college.
1. Every pitcher has experienced a sore elbow from his first season ever, even in t-ball. Why T-ball/6u is played with the same size and weight ball as the major leagues, I don't know. In fact, of the two dozen different official baseballs out there, the official MLB one "feels" the lightest.
2. Showcases with public radar readings could contribute to the issue. When our team got our first radar gun, we all were curious to see how hard we could throw. It wasn't before long that there was a competition to see who could throw harder than who. Even I, the slowest cruising at 74-77 was competing against myself to get to 80 and get there I did, up to 82 even before I felt/heard a "pop" in my elbow. I shut it down, switched to 2B, LF, 3B, anywhere but the 1 spot.
3. Overuse can sometimes be good to build strength, but it seems to mostly be a bad thing. Our pitcher last season his coach used him for every batting practice and pitched every inning of every game. He didn't pitch THAT much, but throwing 5 days a week probably wasn't a good thing for him. His elbow popped and now he can "crack" his elbow by rotating his forearm.
Personally I think max effort overhand throwing is going to cause problems for anyone. Jose Canseco had been pitching here and there all season with their PC, even pitched in the minors and had a 95mph fb, but when they called him in for a ML game, he threw nothing but 70mph junk. Turns out he had already destroyed his elbow in the bullpen warming up.
cabbagedad posted:Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Steve A, welcome to the site. You have pointed out some areas of concern (ok, "flat out wrong"). I am genuinely curious as to what you think would be considered the staples of a good program for young players, say 12-17, to be working to gain arm (and related) health, velocity, strength, etc.
Hi Cabbage,
First off, I do not claim to be a guru or an expert. I can tell you that I am a student of this subject & have learned more about proper mechanics & conditioning since I hung up my spikes 20 years ago than I ever knew previously. My motivation is a love of the game & a concern for arm health starting with my sons participation in the travel ball scene.
12-17 is a broad range depending on when puberty hits. Let's just say there should be some absolutes pre puberty. Weights, extreme long toss & such things I would hold off on completely. It all starts with proper mechanics & we could go on forever there but alignment, removing the ball from the glove too early (major fault), momentum & arm action need to be ironed out (among other issues) prior to velocity concerns. If these issues are not addressed, increased velocity will only pour gas on the fire.
Let's assume all is well with mechanics for the most part. Pre puberty the focus should be on explosive & dynamic full body coordinated actions. A trampoline is a great tool here. Take your young guy & have him jump up & down & toss him a football mid air for catches. I used to roll the football up on my roof & let it tumble down off & see if he could react & catch it. Make it fun. Get a low adjustable basketball goal & bring it down & have him dunk it both left & right handed on the run. 4LB Medicine ball chest pass from about 6' back & fourth is fine as well.
After Puberty we obviously can ramp things up here. My feeling is that the key to velocity is a full body explosive lunge with direction & purpose to the plate. The arm is simply the end of the whip & along for the ride. Box jumps, dunks as above, lunges, sprints, various medicine ball (2 HANDS AT ALL TIMES) rotational throws, slams, launches, core strengthening actions. I have mine switch hit & he takes a good bit of BP both ways for symmetry.
As far as throwing. I see no need or use for this extreme long toss that seems to be the rage. Why? When would you ever incorporate that into the game. Do tennis players crank tennis balls to see how far they can hit it to get velocity on their serve? Do NBA players practice half court shots to increase their Jumper range (OK, maybe Curry...)? If you want velocity from the mound the single most effective way is to get on the mound, with proper mechanics & air it out on a rational workload basis. I could go on & on. I just enjoy the conversation, thanks>
Steve, thanks for your input to the subject and board overall. There are quite a few experienced posters on here, as you are chatting with them now. There are MANY more that just read, and these are the ones with pre-high school kids. You have a big audience reading your posts.
Thanks again for posting your insights.
roothog66 posted:Steve A. posted:roothog66 posted:Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may
Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action.
Respectfully, I think you completely miss benefit of weighted balls if you think it's based on strengthening the arm for velocity. What weighted balls do is strengthen the muscles that support the ucl, which doesn't make you throw harder - because you're correct about where velocity comes from - but, rather, allows the arm to handle throwing at higher velocities. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference. Further, most velocity gains verified are within programs lasting from 8-11 weeks. Velocity gains over that short a period of time cannot be attributed to youth growth.
Enjoying the conversation. I just want to make sure I understand your point. You are saying that the purpose of throwing a weighted baseball is to "strengthen muscle" in the arm that supports the ucl, therefore laying the framework to support the load of increased velocity gained from the other activities of the 8-11 week program? Correct?
So if throwing a weighted baseball accomplished this you would assume with all of the study, thesis & research associated with the multi billion dollar industry of MLB combined with the injury epidemic of UCL injury on an unprecedented scale, that a large percentage of MLB teams would incorporate a regimen of weighted baseball throwing at all levels, particularly rehab. Would they not? Care to guess why this is not the case? 
The answer is that while it is possible that your assertion is true to some extent, the danger FAR outweighs the possible benefit, especially at the youth level.
Root, I understand and agree with, to an extent, your arguments. I will also throw out my small sample of experience and belief and not claim that it proves anything.
A few points of perspective...
My youngest had a wrist injury (not throwing related) that required surgery through the renowned Kerlan-Jobe Sports Med Orthopedic group so we spent more time there than I would have liked. During that time, we spoke to several specialists and PT's that all worked primarily with sports athletes, youth thru pro. They all were consistent with their belief that overuse at a young age and specialization at a young age are key contributors to a growing problem and that there was a direct correlation to the growth of year 'round club and travel ball (of course, along with the bad decisions coaches and parents were making while participating in these events that were contributing further to the problem). Some also went into detail about the physiology of the body and the various stages of maturation. They related some of the overuse issues specifically to younger ages and what the body can withstand at each of those various stages. They are as much the experts as anyone, IMO. Many in this group are active in trying to get awareness out to the baseball community that this is an issue. They seem genuine in trying to use their position of expertise to alleviate the problem. I don't know of any direct financial gain they could see by collaborating on this position as a group.
You made this comment... "When Andrews started seeing more young patients I just don't think it occurred to him that the baseball scene has changed and that those who never would have even thought about scheduling an appointment with him now do." This one, I don't agree with. I suppose it is possible that at one point, this wasn't factored in enough but as much research as he has done and as much as he is considered an expert in the field, I can't imagine that there is not sufficient awareness of this factor. I do agree it absolutely is a factor. I just don't agree that the sports doc experts don't account for it at all.
I have a nephew who has Spinal Muscular Atrophy. Through his early-year struggles, we were immersed in learning about the workings of muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, etc. of young people and, again, the thing that sticks out as it relates to this conversation is how much the medical experts talked about various stages of development and how the young body, even when completely healthy, cannot handle some of the things a mature body can.
See my earlier post in this thread. Our geographical area is relatively remote by California standards. So, the club/travel scene is still in a growth mode here whereas it has matured quite a bit in the larger metro areas of Calif. I have been part of the coaching scene as well as involved on a broader scope as site director for some of the national youth tournament organizations. I have certainly seen a significant spike in specific arm issues. Is there more participation? Yup. More awareness and likelihood to get any issues checked? Yup. But as that funnel narrows (i.e. - when I get the young players coming into the HS program), it becomes starkly evident that more 8th, 9th and 10th graders are coming in with arm issues already. This wasn't nearly the case when I started working with HS age groups several years ago.
Small sample still? Yes. Does it prove anything? No. Food for thought for your beliefs? ???
Just as an aside. Dr. James Andrews recommends "at least 2 months, preferably 3-4 months of no overhead throwing per year," at the youth level. The majority of these velocity camps are held when??? Winter, indoor, off season, not good.
Steve A. posted:roothog66 posted:Steve A. posted:roothog66 posted:Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may
Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action.
Respectfully, I think you completely miss benefit of weighted balls if you think it's based on strengthening the arm for velocity. What weighted balls do is strengthen the muscles that support the ucl, which doesn't make you throw harder - because you're correct about where velocity comes from - but, rather, allows the arm to handle throwing at higher velocities. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference. Further, most velocity gains verified are within programs lasting from 8-11 weeks. Velocity gains over that short a period of time cannot be attributed to youth growth.
Enjoying the conversation. I just want to make sure I understand your point. You are saying that the purpose of throwing a weighted baseball is to "strengthen muscle" in the arm that supports the ucl, therefore laying the framework to support the load of increased velocity gained from the other activities of the 8-11 week program? Correct?
So if throwing a weighted baseball accomplished this you would assume with all of the study, thesis & research associated with the multi billion dollar industry of MLB combined with the injury epidemic of UCL injury on an unprecedented scale, that a large percentage of MLB teams would incorporate a regimen of weighted baseball throwing at all levels, particularly rehab. Would they not? Care to guess why this is not the case?
Steve -- Interesting perspective. With respect to the bolded text, FWIW I remembered a post from Kyle Boddy from this past winter when he said with respect to weighted balls at his facility: "At last count we have 56 pros training using our stuff, 10 of whom have innings in the big leagues. And the entire Cleveland Indians pitching staff uses them at Goodyear and on the road." http://community.hsbaseballweb...14#27200878163231214
Of course, many others could be using weighted balls outside of Kyle Boddy's program.
OTOH, do you know how Woolforth's and Boddy's clients do with respect to injury? Because if you're correct, their clients should be getting injured much more often than other pitchers, right?
Steve A. posted:cabbagedad posted:Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Steve A, welcome to the site. You have pointed out some areas of concern (ok, "flat out wrong"). I am genuinely curious as to what you think would be considered the staples of a good program for young players, say 12-17, to be working to gain arm (and related) health, velocity, strength, etc.
Hi Cabbage,
First off, I do not claim to be a guru or an expert. I can tell you that I am a student of this subject & have learned more about proper mechanics & conditioning since I hung up my spikes 20 years ago than I ever knew previously. My motivation is a love of the game & a concern for arm health starting with my sons participation in the travel ball scene.
12-17 is a broad range depending on when puberty hits. Let's just say there should be some absolutes pre puberty. Weights, extreme long toss & such things I would hold off on completely. It all starts with proper mechanics & we could go on forever there but alignment, removing the ball from the glove too early (major fault), momentum & arm action need to be ironed out (among other issues) prior to velocity concerns. If these issues are not addressed, increased velocity will only pour gas on the fire.
Let's assume all is well with mechanics for the most part. Pre puberty the focus should be on explosive & dynamic full body coordinated actions. A trampoline is a great tool here. Take your young guy & have him jump up & down & toss him a football mid air for catches. I used to roll the football up on my roof & let it tumble down off & see if he could react & catch it. Make it fun. Get a low adjustable basketball goal & bring it down & have him dunk it both left & right handed on the run. 4LB Medicine ball chest pass from about 6' back & fourth is fine as well.
After Puberty we obviously can ramp things up here. My feeling is that the key to velocity is a full body explosive lunge with direction & purpose to the plate. The arm is simply the end of the whip & along for the ride. Box jumps, dunks as above, lunges, sprints, various medicine ball (2 HANDS AT ALL TIMES) rotational throws, slams, launches, core strengthening actions. I have mine switch hit & he takes a good bit of BP both ways for symmetry.
As far as throwing. I see no need or use for this extreme long toss that seems to be the rage. Why? When would you ever incorporate that into the game. Do tennis players crank tennis balls to see how far they can hit it to get velocity on their serve? Do NBA players practice half court shots to increase their Jumper range (OK, maybe Curry...)? If you want velocity from the mound the single most effective way is to get on the mound, with proper mechanics & air it out on a rational workload basis. I could go on & on. I just enjoy the conversation, thanks>
Thanks Steve A,
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that my own kids fell in that age range ( although I wish I could go another round 
)... My youngest is still playing as a junior in college and I coach HS V and have done a little with summer college ball.
I like to get various perspectives and keep up on the latest so I know I am offering solid direction to those I encounter. Good stuff, thanks for posting.
BTW, just for reference, Root has some very talented and accomplished P sons as well.
cabbagedad posted:Root, I understand and agree with, to an extent, your arguments. I will also throw out my small sample of experience and belief and not claim that it proves anything.
A few points of perspective...
My youngest had a wrist injury (not throwing related) that required surgery through the renowned Kerlan-Jobe Sports Med Orthopedic group so we spent more time there than I would have liked. During that time, we spoke to several specialists and PT's that all worked primarily with sports athletes, youth thru pro. They all were consistent with their belief that overuse at a young age and specialization at a young age are key contributors to a growing problem and that there was a direct correlation to the growth of year 'round club and travel ball (of course, along with the bad decisions coaches and parents were making while participating in these events that were contributing further to the problem). Some also went into detail about the physiology of the body and the various stages of maturation. They related some of the overuse issues specifically to younger ages and what the body can withstand at each of those various stages. They are as much the experts as anyone, IMO. Many in this group are active in trying to get awareness out to the baseball community that this is an issue. They seem genuine in trying to use their position of expertise to alleviate the problem. I don't know of any direct financial gain they could see by collaborating on this position as a group.
You made this comment... "When Andrews started seeing more young patients I just don't think it occurred to him that the baseball scene has changed and that those who never would have even thought about scheduling an appointment with him now do." This one, I don't agree with. I suppose it is possible that at one point, this wasn't factored in enough but as much research as he has done and as much as he is considered an expert in the field, I can't imagine that there is not sufficient awareness of this factor. I do agree it absolutely is a factor. I just don't agree that the sports doc experts don't account for it at all.
I have a nephew who has Spinal Muscular Atrophy. Through his early-year struggles, we were immersed in learning about the workings of muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, etc. of young people and, again, the thing that sticks out as it relates to this conversation is how much the medical experts talked about various stages of development and how the young body, even when completely healthy, cannot handle some of the things a mature body can.
See my earlier post in this thread. Our geographical area is relatively remote by California standards. So, the club/travel scene is still in a growth mode here whereas it has matured quite a bit in the larger metro areas of Calif. I have been part of the coaching scene as well as involved on a broader scope as site director for some of the national youth tournament organizations. I have certainly seen a significant spike in specific arm issues. Is there more participation? Yup. More awareness and likelihood to get any issues checked? Yup. But as that funnel narrows (i.e. - when I get the young players coming into the HS program), it becomes starkly evident that more 8th, 9th and 10th graders are coming in with arm issues already. This wasn't nearly the case when I started working with HS age groups several years ago.
Small sample still? Yes. Does it prove anything? No. Food for thought for your beliefs? ???
As to the sports docs not accounting for it all, the problem I have is still that the usual quote is that "I'm seeing kids at a younger and younger age and more of them." For the most part, that is the extent of any argument that injury rates are increasing. In fact, some never explicitly even make that argument, it's us that take that statement and expand it to mean more. Regardless, they are professionals who, otherwise, are just like the rest of us in that often they perceive their own personal experience as universal. It's a human trait we've all been victim to at one time or another. remember, they are experts on human anatomy and not necessarily trained to analyze the data for such purposes.
I do agree that year 'round travel would be a problem for those who actually partake in it. However, I don't believe it is as bad as feared. I think more kids (talking mainly pitchers) take time off than you think. While a team may operate for 12 months in Florida or California, it's quite common that many kids on a roster like that are playing other sports and don't play the whole year or at least don't pitch the whole year. So, the fact that it's possible to play 12 months/year is a problem for those who actually do it.
Your claim that you see more 8th, 9th, and 10th graders with arm issues. Jus keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that make it tough to put a universal tag on this to the extent that you can call it a epidemic, as some have. First, over how many years are you talking? A long enough time and a large enough sample to make it predictable? For example, I was sitting here today trying to even think of a single kid from our area during youth ball with an arm issue. I clicked off almost a hundred pitchers in my head and could come up with none. Now, I realize, that's probably a statistical anomaly, but if I were to let my personal experience lead the ay, I'd conclude that you people are crazy and there's no problem whatsoever. However, I know that isn't true.
I think some are getting the idea that I'm saying nothing is wrong and overuse isn't a problem. That's not at all what I'm trying to say. I'm saying overuse has been a problem as long as baseball has been around and I'm definitely of the opinion that something should - and I believe something is - being done about it.
There was a question earlier about how might a Nolan Ryan have made it in today's baseball climate. I think quite well. I think genetics is a MUCH larger factor than we consider. I think we ignore it for the obvious reason that it is perhaps the one thing we can't do anything about so it probably is best to ignore it when searching for arm care plans. The following IS COMPLETELY CONJECTURE. It is a thought experiment only.
I think in the past, genetics completely controlled who made it to the big leagues. Not that long ago, in youth ball, it was quite common to basically run the same pitcher out there game after game. Heck, I know I threw over 200 pitches a game more than once. It is my theory that by the time pitchers got to be about 17 or 18, they had been so used up that only those with genetically gifted and genetically durable ucl's and shoulder ligaments were left standing. Those without genetically durable materials had long since thrown themselves out of the game. So, the vast majority of pitchers who were still standing by that time were simply the strongest and genetically at the least risk for injury. Today, I think we actually do a much better job of limiting overuse on pitchers and many who may not be all that genetically protected against injury make it farther through their careers than they would have 40 years ago. In other words, the kid that would have been done pitching due to injury in 1975 at the age of 17 now is protected long enough to make it to 23 or 25 before he has problems. Even then, there's TJ surgery to extend his career. I think this is a very good thing. Guys like Nolan Ryan and Tom Sever probably could have pitched plenty as youths and played year 'round. They still would have made it to the majors and been durable. Genetics. Now, for the rest of the mortals, arm care becomes much, much more important.
June 14, 1974 - the Angels beat the Re Sox 4-3 in 15 innings. Nolan Ryan pitched 13 innings and threw a 235 pitches. Luis Tiant threw 187. We only know this because an Angels pitching coach did something no one else was doing at the time - he counted pitches. No one blinked an eye at such stats because no one even noticed.
2019Dad posted:Steve A. posted:roothog66 posted:Steve A. posted:roothog66 posted:Steve A. posted:There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.
I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level. I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.
A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.
Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may
Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action.
Respectfully, I think you completely miss benefit of weighted balls if you think it's based on strengthening the arm for velocity. What weighted balls do is strengthen the muscles that support the ucl, which doesn't make you throw harder - because you're correct about where velocity comes from - but, rather, allows the arm to handle throwing at higher velocities. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference. Further, most velocity gains verified are within programs lasting from 8-11 weeks. Velocity gains over that short a period of time cannot be attributed to youth growth.
Enjoying the conversation. I just want to make sure I understand your point. You are saying that the purpose of throwing a weighted baseball is to "strengthen muscle" in the arm that supports the ucl, therefore laying the framework to support the load of increased velocity gained from the other activities of the 8-11 week program? Correct?
So if throwing a weighted baseball accomplished this you would assume with all of the study, thesis & research associated with the multi billion dollar industry of MLB combined with the injury epidemic of UCL injury on an unprecedented scale, that a large percentage of MLB teams would incorporate a regimen of weighted baseball throwing at all levels, particularly rehab. Would they not? Care to guess why this is not the case?
Steve -- Interesting perspective. With respect to the bolded text, FWIW I remembered a post from Kyle Boddy from this past winter when he said with respect to weighted balls at his facility: "At last count we have 56 pros training using our stuff, 10 of whom have innings in the big leagues. And the entire Cleveland Indians pitching staff uses them at Goodyear and on the road." http://community.hsbaseballweb...14#27200878163231214
Of course, many others could be using weighted balls outside of Kyle Boddy's program.
OTOH, do you know how Woolforth's and Boddy's clients do with respect to injury? Because if you're correct, their clients should be getting injured much more often than other pitchers, right?
I did see a note about Kluber using them with the Indians. I really have no idea about the rate of injury for Woolforth or Boddy. I would not suspect that this information would be readily broadcast nor could you directly tie an injury to the weighted ball itself, even if it was. Clearly, there is a ton of speculation here (much from me!) on all sides of the injury issue & weighted ball issue. My main motive here was to offer my opinion that the throwing of weighted baseballs does not increase velocity (I think we agree here) & that it is certainly a major risk when employed with youth growth plates etc. I strongly feel that the offseason velocity camps with weighted baseball use are counterproductive to long term arm health. The hook is that they actually will increase velocity (generated from the other, non throwing activities) but at a vastly greater potential present & future injury risk due to the mileage put on the youth arm from extreme throwing. Have I done a study to back this up? No. But all of my experience, observation, research & common sense screams it.
Root, I don't know what area you specialize in with your practice but, whatever it is, don't you make it a point to know not only the letter of the law but the current surrounding environment as well as the history in that given area? And if you are considered one of the best of the best, wouldn't you feel an even greater responsibility to stay fully abreast of all influences as they relate to your area of expertise?
I get that if you took the statement on it's own ("I'm seeing more and more kids at an early age"), it could be chalked up to one of the arguments such as "back in the day, we didn't get that checked", but the sports docs making these statements are not making them in a vacuum. They are mostly making them in tandem with the message that there is a problem and the problem is tied to increasing overuse.
