Posted article from Eric Cressey removed on showcases

I don't know what the article says - but Eric Cressey is a stud.  One of the best trainers of MLB players around.  I'd be interested to read it if anyone has the link?

TPM posted:

To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

Being one of those 2020 parents I just googled the article.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

  The gist is that showcases that fall during a players "down time" is not a good idea because you can't be "on" all year long, it's unhealthy.

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

Being one of those 2020 parents I just googled the article.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

  The gist is that showcases that fall during a players "down time" is not a good idea because you can't be "on" all year long, it's unhealthy.

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

I read the article years ago and when it was posted today.

Here is the thing, I am not going to get into where a player gets discovered. Playing in tournaments is a lot different than off season showcases. I think many of us here have tried to get that point across.

Funny how we all see things differently, but as I always said, the folks of the younger set will realize how important this type of info will be someday when their player needs some major surgery..BEFORE HE RECEIVES A COMMITMENT.

This man trains ML players, I doubt we know more than him.

I also am curious why it was removed after the poster even admitted he understood.

Cressey's article is another piece of information from an expert.  There's lots of information, and lots of experts. Although I think he crafted his own questions to make a point, the point is valid.  For showcases, buyer beware, informed and aware of the risks to your son health as he is trying to achieve his goals.  And aware of your pocketbook.

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

Being one of those 2020 parents I just googled the article.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

  The gist is that showcases that fall during a players "down time" is not a good idea because you can't be "on" all year long, it's unhealthy.

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

I read the article years ago and when it was posted today.

Here is the thing, I am not going to get into where a player gets discovered. Playing in tournaments is a lot different than off season showcases. I think many of us here have tried to get that point across.

Funny how we all see things differently, but as I always said, the folks of the younger set will realize how important this type of info will be someday when their player needs some major surgery..BEFORE HE RECEIVES A COMMITMENT.

This man trains ML players, I doubt we know more than him.

I also am curious why it was removed after the poster even admitted he understood.

It has also been discussed many times on this board that things have changed over the last 5 years.  This article is 6 years old.  I was wondering if showcases played a bigger part now in most people's recruiting path than they did 6 years ago.

Go44dad posted:

Cressey's article is another piece of information from an expert.  There's lots of information, and lots of experts. Although I think he crafted his own questions to make a point, the point is valid.  For showcases, buyer beware, informed and aware of the risks to your son health as he is trying to achieve his goals.  And aware of your pocketbook.

I think you get it!

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

CaCO3Girl posted:

TPM posted:

To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

Being one of those 2020 parents I just googled the article.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

  The gist is that showcases that fall during a players "down time" is not a good idea because you can't be "on" all year long, it's unhealthy.

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

I read the article years ago and when it was posted today.

Here is the thing, I am not going to get into where a player gets discovered. Playing in tournaments is a lot different than off season showcases. I think many of us here have tried to get that point across.

Funny how we all see things differently, but as I always said, the folks of the younger set will realize how important this type of info will be someday when their player needs some major surgery..BEFORE HE RECEIVES A COMMITMENT.

This man trains ML players, I doubt we know more than him.

I also am curious why it was removed after the poster even admitted he understood.

It has also been discussed many times on this board that things have changed over the last 5 years.  This article is 6 years old.  I was wondering if showcases played a bigger part now in most people's recruiting path than they did 6 years ago.

See Go44's reply. Read it, read it again. Save it.

I have not read the article but the two best things my son did, (6 years ago...ugh) was Scout ball and ending with the Az Fall Classic, and this was in the fall of his rising Sr year. He probably got on the academic schools lists from the Stanford Camp. Recruiting may be a bit earlier now, but my son was a late bloomer but I don't see how he could have missed these and be seen. We always shut down right after this, which would be in mid Oct and he would start to get ready for HS season right at the Christmas-New Years break. He also played basketball so he was training for HS basketball in the fall and the season kicked off when he shut down for baseball and it all worked out. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

I don't know about the 'one kid' comment, but I think its still true that the kid would have been discovered through HS and/or summer ball.

My oldest son and his wife just bought their first house.  Along the way, in a very hot real estate market in their price range, they made bids on other houses that they lost.  My sense is they were getting a little panicked about it all - and started rushing around bidding on nearly every/any house in their range.  I finally saw one of them and had to sit them down and talk about patience, because they were about to buy a POS - I had to convince them that they would find a house and one they liked but to stop racing to bid on every house on the map.

Similar principles apply here.  You can find the right school without racing to events all year long.  Winter camps at colleges (yes, our sons did some of those) are well known to be money makers.  Yes, you can be discovered there or at a winter showcase - but since our older son did a bit of this, it always concerned me - the ramping up, ramping down...all year long.  But I didn't act on it - I was impatient.  Its easy to do.

I think Eric Cressey has a VERY good point that is every bit as valid today as 6 years ago.  This guy knows what he's doing.  Perfect...always right?  Certainly not.  But knowing a bit about him today, I would listen to what he has to say.

CaCO3Girl posted:

It has also been discussed many times on this board that things have changed over the last 5 years.  This article is 6 years old.  I was wondering if showcases played a bigger part now in most people's recruiting path than they did 6 years ago.

Yes, they seem to play a bigger role - but the main point of the article is about when to do it and when not to do it.  The points remain valid from an expert in physiology.  I don't see how to ignore that.

In other words, for most of the points made in the article, age of the article is irrelevant IMO.

One other thing - having gone through this.  I would advise parents of pitchers to manage (very closely) the bobbing back and forth during the summer between travel team and showcase events.  It is very easy to throw 5-7 innings of a championship game in a tournament on Tuesday and be on the mound for a showcase on Friday.  That is not typically enough rest for a pitcher.  Just think about this stuff - thats all.

justbaseball posted:

One other thing - having gone through this.  I would advise parents of pitchers to manage (very closely) the bobbing back and forth during the summer between travel team and showcase events.  It is very easy to throw 5-7 innings of a championship game in a tournament on Tuesday and be on the mound for a showcase on Friday.  That is not typically enough rest for a pitcher.  Just think about this stuff - thats all.

Interesting, I have seen something happening lately that I thought was odd, but maybe it is because of this.  Rather than committing to a summer team some of the hot shot pitchers are choosing to only be a pick up player now and then, a gun for hire of sorts. Do you think this is the reason?

I'm not 100% certain of what I'm about to share, so buyer beware, but it was told to me from our HS Pitching coach that part of the "Pitch Smart" guidelines will enact heavy (in thousands $$+)  fines against MLB clubs that watch any HS pitcher throw during the months of October through or to January.

If this is the case, it would obviously have a major impact on those fall/winter showcase/tournament events, most notably, Jupiter.

I'm not sure if the months he mentioned are accurate, or if this also applies to fielders/hitters, but it would certainly be difficult to watch any kind of live action scrimmage without pitchers.

I want to reiterate that I have searched for and found nothing to corroborate what he told me, so in my mind, this is hearsay at this point.  I'm sure Jerry would be well aware and can confirm or refute the validity of this info.

If it is true, then it would certainly be a meaningful move toward protecting arms, at least at the highest level, by putting some teeth in something that largely drives players to continue to perform during their "down" months.

Again, if this is incorrect, don't shoot the messenger, I've provided adequate disclaimer.  Not trying to be an alarmist or spread rumor, just seems timely given the subject 

CaCO3Girl posted:

justbaseball posted:

One other thing - having gone through this.  I would advise parents of pitchers to manage (very closely) the bobbing back and forth during the summer between travel team and showcase events.  It is very easy to throw 5-7 innings of a championship game in a tournament on Tuesday and be on the mound for a showcase on Friday.  That is not typically enough rest for a pitcher.  Just think about this stuff - thats all.

Interesting, I have seen something happening lately that I thought was odd, but maybe it is because of this.  Rather than committing to a summer team some of the hot shot pitchers are choosing to only be a pick up player now and then, a gun for hire of sorts. Do you think this is the reason?

My guess is that there are so many "private" invite events (PG National, workout at MLB sites, Tournament of Stars, Connie Mack, Area Code, East Coast Pro, etc), that overlap tournaments and conflict with the continuity of a real team, it just makes sense for some.

Nuke - Understanding your disclaimers, that would be the type of step that would make a difference.  I hope its true.

Shutting down scouting for MLB teams from October through January is absolutely useless if colleges don't follow suit and definitely is a hindrance to two-sport athletes who want to play a fall sport. Currently, running showcase in the winter allows athletes to use August through October or November as their "rest period," gear up earlier for the regular season rather than extend beyond it, and still have an opportunity to get the attention associated with fall baseball. Just because events are available 12 months a year doesn't mean players have to attend event all year. It isn't the responsibility of guys like Jerry Ford to make sure pitchers schedule rest. At some point, pitchers have to take the responsibility for properly determining their own schedule. In fact, all PG does is offer the flexibility that allows players to schedule their rest periods at times convenient for their own schedules instead of being forced to follow a pre-determined season over which they have no control.

I get Cressey's point about being careful about not overworking a kid so much that he gets hurt.  Common sense has to apply for most parents and their sons to know when their arms need a break.  Maybe that is in the Fall, or maybe that is in the months leading up to the High School season.  Or maybe it is a month on and month off for awhile.

But I do not buy his point about only one player being "discovered" at a showcase.  What is the definition of "discovered"?  If that means a kid good enough to one day play MLB, then that may be the case.  But there are thousands of kids out there with no aspirations to play professionally who want a chance to play in college and hopefully get some financial assistance.  And plenty of those kids will NEVER be seen playing a game for their high school, so how do they get "discovered" otherwise?. 

College baseball coaches have little to no chance to ever attend a high school baseball game--they conflict with their teams' seasons.  Most universities have little to no money in the budget to go travel and see a kid.  Some will rely on videos sent, but many want to see a kid play in the flesh, talk to them in person, etc.  Stanford's pitching coach told us that he had seen exactly one kid pitch for his high school team during the past five years.  And that is a high level D1 program--imagine what the lesser programs do to recruit players.

There seems to be a strong bias on this forum that showcases are a big money-maker for organizations like PG, Headfirst, etc. and the college coaches that work them.  That may be the case, but if they were not worth it, they would die off quickly.  How about the money saving benefits to parents and players?  If there are 10 schools/coaches out of 30-50 working a camp and the player gets a chance to meet the coaches and play in front of them, how much time and money is saved by going to the showcase versus visits to even half of those schools?  And how many would otherwise consider D2, D3, and NAIA schools without going to a showcase.  Of course, should a player wind up with an offer of financial aid toward college, that would more than offset the cost of attending showcases and become a money-maker for the player and parents.

Yes, it makes sense to start small with a showcase or camp to get a sense if your son even has a chance of playing college ball.  But don't be foolish and sit around and think your son is going to get noticed playing baseball if he takes much of the Summer and Fall off to rest.  Unless he is a major talent with obvious tools, he may never get noticed.

I'm a proponent of taking a long-term view of development, to the extent that I would propose that for HS sophomores/juniors and younger, taking the summer to commit to dedicated strength & conditioning is a better solution than playing from Feb through Oct/Nov.  They should still play in the summer, but what I am saying is that it's okay to show up to a game a little sore from a prior strength workout, because in the long-term is that one game going to matter?  Probably not.  Will the 4 months of dedicated S&C matter more?  Probably.  Can an adjustment be made for a HS Junior going to a major summer event?  Of course, but balance the long-term and short-term.

Sporting News had an article about this recently that spurred me to write an article on the Power Alley website in response that outlined my proposed yearly schedule for a HS or younger ball player:

"-Spring High School season – focus on performance on the field, utilize an in-season strength maintenance program;

-June through August – commit to a dedicated off-season strength and conditioning program as a primary objective, performance on the field during summer ball is secondary;

-Fall showcase/travel season – focus on performance on the field, utilize an in-season strength maintenance program;

-End of Fall season until Spring practice begins – commit to another dedicated period of strength and conditioning.

Additionally, particularly for pre-teen athletes, it would probably be best to pick up other sports as well.  Much has been written lately about the questionable benefits of early specialization in sports.  From our own experience, learning and playing a new sport improves the ability to pick up skills in the primary sport, improves overall athleticism, balances physical development, and improves kinesthetic awareness."

May align with some people's opinion, and be quite contrary to others.  But those are my thoughts and what I advise young players to do.

I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine.

Matt Reiland posted:

I'm a proponent of taking a long-term view of development, to the extent that I would propose that for HS sophomores/juniors and younger, taking the summer to commit to dedicated strength & conditioning is a better solution than playing from Feb through Oct/Nov.  They should still play in the summer, but what I am saying is that it's okay to show up to a game a little sore from a prior strength workout, because in the long-term is that one game going to matter?  Probably not.  Will the 4 months of dedicated S&C matter more?  Probably.  Can an adjustment be made for a HS Junior going to a major summer event?  Of course, but balance the long-term and short-term.

Sporting News had an article about this recently that spurred me to write an article on the Power Alley website in response that outlined my proposed yearly schedule for a HS or younger ball player:

"-Spring High School season – focus on performance on the field, utilize an in-season strength maintenance program;

-June through August – commit to a dedicated off-season strength and conditioning program as a primary objective, performance on the field during summer ball is secondary;

-Fall showcase/travel season – focus on performance on the field, utilize an in-season strength maintenance program;

-End of Fall season until Spring practice begins – commit to another dedicated period of strength and conditioning.

Additionally, particularly for pre-teen athletes, it would probably be best to pick up other sports as well.  Much has been written lately about the questionable benefits of early specialization in sports.  From our own experience, learning and playing a new sport improves the ability to pick up skills in the primary sport, improves overall athleticism, balances physical development, and improves kinesthetic awareness."

May align with some people's opinion, and be quite contrary to others.  But those are my thoughts and what I advise young players to do.

Thank you for your input. As a new member, be aware that this info has been a constant discussion in our forum.  Your information only confirms that.

College coaches certainly attend high school games, but usually only on Mondays and only locally. If you live in an area close to several schools (say somewhere like Houston) high school ball can certainly be relevant. However, it's very limited.

As to using the summer to develop physically and not caring about decreased performance, for some it may be the opposite. It may make more sense to take that attitude with the high school season. That, however, would have its own problems - especially with teammates. The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods.

roothog66 posted:

The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods.

Agree.  I used the example of June - August, but that can obviously shift around after looking at a calendar of events and prioritizing the important ones.

TPM posted:

Thank you for your input. As a new member, be aware that this info has been a constant discussion in our forum.  Your information only confirms that.

 I realize that nothing I posted is new or revolutionary, just providing food for discussion with an additional point of view.  It will probably continue to be a discussion until the end of time.

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Justbaseball,

Why would you hope it is true?  Exactly what difference would it make that could possibly be considered positive? Less TJ surgeries?  Do you really believe that?  The amount of pitching abuse at that event is nothing compared to what really happens all over the place.

The Jupiter tournament in late October is the biggest scouting attraction in baseball. MLB organizations spend a small fortune covering it, many send their entire scouting department.  Pretty much every high level college program is also there.  The number of young players that have benefitted greatly is well documented. And I'm not talking about just the superstars.

Over 11,000 went on o play college baseball.  Over 3,700 became draft picks.  Many that were FIRST discovered at this event. And if we want to talk about why it is such a scouting attraction, how about this... 510 and still counting have played in the Major Leagues.  340 were selected in the first round.  These include Cy Young winners, MVPs, Rookie of the years, and a very large number of All Stars.  Yes, the brightest stars in the game.  And all those numbers grow much bigger each year. You can watch any MLB game or high level college game and you will see a bunch of players that played in that event when they were in HS.  So many made their name, right there on those Jupiter fields in October.

Whether it is college or professional baseball, so many young players, MLB organizations and college programs have benefitted greatly from that single event.  And it is all well documented for anyone that cares to do the research.

And you hope it ends?  I am totally confused.  Maybe it gets back to the injury thing.  Knock on wood, has anyone noticed TJ surgeries are down.  Anyone with some searching skills can find the list of every draft pick, MLB player, etc., from that event.  We know most of the pitchers from that event that later had TJ surgery.  Truth is the percentage of TJ surgeries of those that never attended that event are higher.  But people keep reading and believing what ever gets printed. Evidently real documentation and the truth doesn't count. But everyone is in such a hurry to have all the answers, they skip over a lot of facts.  We could ask everyone who has had TJ surgery if they played in that event.  Surely some would say yes!   So was it because of that event? What about all the others?  It is extremely rare to see a pitcher being over used at that event. And there are many pitchers shut down and don't attend that event. Some are playing football. Some shut down before, some shut down after.  Those are all individual choices. Is the right thing to do to take away individual choices?  When did anyone make October a bad baseball month.

Could anyone with some common sense, actually believe that no one is ever first discovered at events like this?  Maybe they should ask Mike Trout! or Carlos Correa! or Andrew Miller! or Carl Crawford! or Jeff Locke! Or hundreds of others that have moved on to the next level.

Major League Baseball is a powerful organization.  They can do what they want.  We have built a great relationship with MLB and we are very close to most scouting departments.  So far, we haven't heard of anything like what you are hoping for.

Also, we were one of the very first to join the PitchSmart initiative. We have all the guidelines and have been using them.  We are working closely with MLB and USAB on this.  Actually we have even added a few of our own rules to make it even safer.  We are also going to adjust some of the things we have done in the past.

I did hear about someone with one of the big baseball publications at last year's Area Codes trying to talk officials and MLB scouts into boycotting Jupiter.  Sounds like he became friendless in a hurry.  There are so many agendas and motives out there that are more business related than they are baseball related.  Our goal has always been to grow the game!  You don't grow the game by taking away, the games best amateur events.

I'm an old American Legion member that was very involved in Legion Baseball.  It was absolutely the best thing back then.  I know some think we are partially responsible for Legion Baseball losing interest.  But some would say we are ruining the game.  Our goal is to grow the game!  When Legion Baseball was at its peak, that is where most of the talent went.  Back then club ball or travel ball didn't amount to much.  Legion picked the best players and most everyone else had nowhere to play.  Compare that to now... All the best players still get together, but there is opportunity for so many others because of the amount of available teams. I understand the money part, but there are so many teams that don't cost much money. So the real truth is... There a more opportunities to play organized baseball today, than there ever was years ago.  

Next step, which we think about all the time.  How do we grow the game among those that don't have the necessary resources. And we are making big strides in that area.  In fact, some of these things will become clear this year.  This new commissioner is going to be really good for growing the game of baseball. And we want to do everything possible to help.

It's also important to note what field a person's expertise is in and not let the fact that an individual is an expert on one subject influence your analysis of his opinion on another area in which he is not an expert. It doesn't mean his opinion in the second field is worthless, just that it shouldn't be given extra weight due to expertise in another area.

I was the OP . and I said it was from 2010 , I agree with some of the things said , but the exposure has evolved in the last 6 plus years, the one thing I don't like about showcases and  I cant speak for all of them only the ones ive been to, and also   for PG events i haven't been to one yet,

Is the lack of warm up time, especially the arms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the worst I've ever seen it, kind looks like rec ball pre game, thats why my kid warms up before , so there no injures when he's trying to blow up the radars.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

c2019 posted:

I was the OP . and I said it was from 2010 , I agree with some of the things said , but the exposure has evolved in the last 6 plus years, the one thing I don't like about showcases and  I cant speak for all of them only the ones ive been to, and also   for PG events i haven't been to one yet,

Is the lack of warm up time, especially the arms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the worst I've ever seen it, kind looks like rec ball pre game, thats why my kid warms up before , so there no injures when he's trying to blow up the radars.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

I think you bring up a valid point. While there are  top tournaments  and showcases done right, there are others that arent. That was why I felt that the article, although written a few years back, had merit. 

As a parent be smart, choose and spend wisely.

PGStaff - I dunno - it was just a quick comment.  Probably shouldn't have made it without thinking about it more carefully.  I was not thinking specifically of Jupiter or any other specific event when I wrote it.

I think there is too much bait to attend and too much pressure on parents and players to play year-around and to begin it at a too, too young an age.  I don't think its in the best interest of kids or their parents' pocketbook...unless they're Mike Trout or someone like that.

I think it would take something like MLB or the NCAA to tamp that down.  Is that the right action?  I don't really know, which is why I probably shouldn't have made that comment.  But its the type of action that Nuke mentioned that would/could bring things back to more reasonable.  It won't happen because 1 or 2 or 15 parents see it as too much, too young, too often.  It would take a major player to change anything.

You are right - Jupiter is a great event.  But because of its timing, it does cause young pitchers to try and ramp back up into high performance mode at an odd/off-peak time of year.  It isn't the only one, but its a highly visible one.  It is not timed (at all) the way a pro pitcher's training is timed.  It is, however, somewhat in synch with a college pitcher's training.  But we both know that college baseball is often not the best example of good arm care.

Frankly, my guess is all of the players you listed would have been discovered whether or not they went to that or other Winter events...or none of them.  I'm not sure why listing them makes a difference in this discussion - other than confusing the topic.

I am not capable of saying specifically why pitchers' arms get hurt.  But like I have a lot of confidence in your view of what is a quality showcase, I have a lot of confidence in Eric Cressey's view on what is best physiologically for a pitcher.

I follow Cressey as well, but statements like this:

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

completely kill his credibility on this subject. Not only is this blatant BS preceded by a declaration of "honesty." It's either a complete lie/exaggeration that is so incredible a statement as to make me confident it can't be true or he's so out of touch that he believes it. I would think even the most pessimistic posters here wouldn't think that in all his years of training baseball players, he's only seen one kid "discovered" at a showcase. It's a dishonest statement and blows his credibility with me.

I agree, the statement doesn't make sense to me either.  But there are plenty of other experts that have one statement here or there that don't make sense to me either - but it doesn't diminish what they say on things they are indeed expert about.  On pitcher training and physiology, I (and many, many others) consider him an expert.  That part of the story is not diminished and should be considered when setting your son's pitching schedule.

Matt Reiland posted:

roothog66 posted:

The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods.

Agree.  I used the example of June - August, but that can obviously shift around after looking at a calendar of events and prioritizing the important ones.

Well, this has been an interesting thread to read.  Seems like many "between the lines" and "behind the scenes" discussions and points being made.  

I'll throw in some of my observations, which include things happening in today's environment.

Son's D2 HC or RC alternately head off to to watch JC and HS players and recruit them during the current HS and college season on the D2's practice days and they are not limited to Mondays.  I was surprised to hear how often this happens.   

I agree with Root's statement... The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods. 

The problem is that, unlike Root, the parents and players usually only go through this process once.  Much of it is learn-as-you-go or learn-by-mistake.  There is a lot of pressure to get these good players seen and find the best match.  The window is often short (from the time they have the skill set to show something to the time the corresponding level of college typically recruits).  So, while the year-round opportunities do provide MORE flexibility, there is a pressure that is very hard to resist for the player/parent to participate in as many good opportunities that come up as possible.  So, they find themselves either abandoning the planned rest or never really planning to take it at all.  And, to pile on, they often have pushed the heavy schedule in years prior, also to try to give the player a leg up on competitive experience and determine where their potential ceiling is.  This can be valuable but almost always overdone.  Many players and parent feed off the building demand of player.  Many can't say no to a respected coach.  Many fear any missed opportunity as "the one that could have been it".

In most cases, if that player/parent team could identify the right year and time of year to push the showcase/travel/exposure scene and stick to a schedule that was healthy (along the lines of what Matt Rieland laid out), they would figure out where they belong, or at least what level to target, and the process would become more manageable.  I know, much easier said than done.

I have seen this cycle repeat itself with each crop of ambitious HS players/parents we get over the last several years.  As much as we advise to plan carefully and not overdo it, the intense "want the best opportunities for my kid" mentality, the fear of falling behind, the "things are different now", the scramble of the process and the panic of "not signed yet" usually get the best of them.  Heck, even with the rare ones that sign early, they still overdo it in hopes of a shot at the draft. 

As soon as I see someone defend the ambitious travel/showcase schedule and dismiss experienced advice as outdated, misinformed or "you don't know MY kid", I know they are in the heat of the battle.

So, what are some of the possible repercussions?   

This year, I have the youngest V team I have ever had, by a lot.  Several are promising players who certainly have a shot at playing at the next level.  They love the game but most are caught up in what I have described.  They are all scrambling to latch on to the next club team for the next season and don't want to miss out on anything their teammates may be getting.  Between last year and this year, I have seven or eight freshman/sophomore players who have already had arm issues.  Most are not even pitchers (or, at least, they won't be now anyway).  Lots of labrums.  Bad tear - missed a year, still having a tough time figuring out how to throw again.  Mild tear, inflammation, bicep tendon, rotator cuff, etc.  Most had no issues during HS season but by November, problems popped up.  Two missed entire freshman season before they were able to step on the HS field.  Two started to show issues during my season.  I shut them down and required proper assessment and PT plan before letting them back.  Part of a parent's initial reaction was mad at me.  They wanted them to keep playing.  I honestly believe we saved those two from the more serious damage that others experienced.   We had one senior who is a highly decorated D1 bound P.  I fear for his future because, even after he committed, they kept pushing hard on the summer/fall/winter tour, largely with the draft in mind.  He was clearly fatigued on a televised event and I don't think has yet fully recovered.  I really love the kid and the family but my advice in that regard went largely ignored.

On the other side of the coin are young players who are more than capable of enjoying and contributing at the HS level but are discouraged and quitting because they are unable, for a variety of reasons, to "keep up with the Jones's" with all the travel, showcase, instruction, etc. that the others are doing.   Then I have another who's parents pulled him from the program because he was initially assigned to get playing time at the JV level and that was beneath their son since they had put so much into travel ball to assure his success in HS and beyond. 

Please, people.

I just don't see paternalistic, over-regulation as the answer and this is coming from a dyed-in-the-wool liberal Democrat.

I Agree with the overuse and misuse of these showcases, our top HS pitcher who is a JR just committed to a Top school who are in the top 15 in the nation ,this kid throws 90 without effort , and  you hear the seems every time it hits my sons glove, just lets say he broke in my sons catcher mitt.  well he pulled his groing in the 1st week of the season, were are in IL its cold, he got better so he pitched a Awesome  game vs another top D1 recruit ,PBR was there with there radars and he was pumping heat. he hasn't pitch since that day ,over a month ago ,he hurt himself, don't know if it was his world tour that he did, but luckily he committed before then . he did have a busy Fall/winter

c2019 posted:

I was the OP . and I said it was from 2010 , I agree with some of the things said , but the exposure has evolved in the last 6 plus years, the one thing I don't like about showcases and  I cant speak for all of them only the ones ive been to, and also   for PG events i haven't been to one yet,

Is the lack of warm up time, especially the arms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the worst I've ever seen it, kind looks like rec ball pre game, thats why my kid warms up before , so there no injures when he's trying to blow up the radars.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

This would be a pretty big problem to me. Luckily, I haven't run across it yet.

I think that showcases are a good thing because they are a place of concentrated attention. I just think many do it too early, don't have proper rest periods and do too many of them.

wait until you have something to showcase. It is nice to show off that you throw hard for a freshman but you just as well can wait until you can throw really hard.

cabbagedad posted:

Well, this has been an interesting thread to read.  Seems like many "between the lines" and "behind the scenes" discussions and points being made.  

I'll throw in some of my observations, which include things happening in today's environment.

Son's D2 HC or RC alternately head off to to watch JC and HS players and recruit them during the current HS and college season on the D2's practice days and they are not limited to Mondays.  I was surprised to hear how often this happens.   

I agree with Root's statement... The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods. 

The problem is that, unlike Root, the parents and players usually only go through this process once.  Much of it is learn-as-you-go or learn-by-mistake.  There is a lot of pressure to get these good players seen and find the best match.  The window is often short (from the time they have the skill set to show something to the time the corresponding level of college typically recruits).  So, while the year-round opportunities do provide MORE flexibility, there is a pressure that is very hard to resist for the player/parent to participate in as many good opportunities that come up as possible.  So, they find themselves either abandoning the planned rest or never really planning to take it at all.  And, to pile on, they often have pushed the heavy schedule in years prior, also to try to give the player a leg up on competitive experience and determine where their potential ceiling is.  This can be valuable but almost always overdone.  Many players and parent feed off the building demand of player.  Many can't say no to a respected coach.  Many fear any missed opportunity as "the one that could have been it".

In most cases, if that player/parent team could identify the right year and time of year to push the showcase/travel/exposure scene and stick to a schedule that was healthy (along the lines of what Matt Rieland laid out), they would figure out where they belong, or at least what level to target, and the process would become more manageable.  I know, much easier said than done.

I have seen this cycle repeat itself with each crop of ambitious HS players/parents we get over the last several years.  As much as we advise to plan carefully and not overdo it, the intense "want the best opportunities for my kid" mentality, the fear of falling behind, the "things are different now", the scramble of the process and the panic of "not signed yet" usually get the best of them.  Heck, even with the rare ones that sign early, they still overdo it in hopes of a shot at the draft. 

As soon as I see someone defend the ambitious travel/showcase schedule and dismiss experienced advice as outdated, misinformed or "you don't know MY kid", I know they are in the heat of the battle.

So, what are some of the possible repercussions?   

This year, I have the youngest V team I have ever had, by a lot.  Several are promising players who certainly have a shot at playing at the next level.  They love the game but most are caught up in what I have described.  They are all scrambling to latch on to the next club team for the next season and don't want to miss out on anything their teammates may be getting.  Between last year and this year, I have eight freshman/sophomore players who have already had arm issues.  Most are not even pitchers (or, at least, they won't be now anyway).  Lots of labrums.  Bad tear - missed a year, still having a tough time figuring out how to throw again.  Mild tear, inflammation, torn bicep tendon, rotator cuff, etc.  Most had no issues during HS season but by November, problems popped up.  Two missed entire freshman season before they were able to step on the HS field.  Two started to show issues during my season.  I shut them down and required proper assessment and PT plan before letting them back.  Parents' initial reaction was mad at me.  They wanted them to keep playing.  I honestly believe we saved those two from more serious damage.   We had one senior who is a highly decorated D1 bound P.  I fear for his future because, even after he committed, they kept pushing hard on the summer/fall/winter tour, largely with the draft in mind.  He was clearly fatigued on a televised event and I don't think ever fully recovered.  I really love the kid and the family but my advice in that regard went largely ignored.

On the other side of the coin are young players who are more than capable of enjoying and contributing at the HS level but are discouraged and quitting because they are unable, for a variety of reasons, to "keep up with the Jones's" with all the travel, showcase, instruction, etc. that the others are doing.   Then I have another who's parents pulled him from the program because he was initially assigned to get playing time at the JV level and that was beneath their son since they had put so much into travel ball to assure his success in HS and beyond. 

Please, people.

 Well said. 

Dominik85 posted:

I think that showcases are a good thing because they are a place of concentrated attention. I just think many do it too early, don't have proper rest periods and do too many of them.

wait until you have something to showcase. It is nice to show off that you throw hard for a freshman but you just as well can wait until you can throw really hard.

I think this is correct. The real truth is that all the factors that go into such a decision are extremely individualistic. It certainly isn't up to the NCAA or MLB to enact policy that assumes a one-size-fits-all system. What I wouldn't mind seeing is a larger pool of resources on education in this matter. That's something the NCAA or MLB or even PG or PBR could certainly involve themselves in. More information that would help players and parent 1) realize they need a showcase/recruitment plan and 2) give them the tools to build it is something I could definitely get behind.

roothog66 posted:

Dominik85 posted:

I think that showcases are a good thing because they are a place of concentrated attention. I just think many do it too early, don't have proper rest periods and do too many of them.

wait until you have something to showcase. It is nice to show off that you throw hard for a freshman but you just as well can wait until you can throw really hard.

.... What I wouldn't mind seeing is a larger pool of resources on education in this matter. ...

I know of a really good large pool of resources in this matter   

roothog66 posted:

I follow Cressey as well, but statements like this:

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

completely kill his credibility on this subject. Not only is this blatant BS preceded by a declaration of "honesty." It's either a complete lie/exaggeration that is so incredible a statement as to make me confident it can't be true or he's so out of touch that he believes it. I would think even the most pessimistic posters here wouldn't think that in all his years of training baseball players, he's only seen one kid "discovered" at a showcase. It's a dishonest statement and blows his credibility with me.

I'm not about to defend Cressey or argue your point but I can say this - If you've ever actually been to Cressey Sports Performance (I have - many times) and had kids who threw there (I have), you'd know that the type of client who typically works out there was discovered a long time ago.  Not a lot of newbies walking around CSP from my observations.  Not to say there aren't any, and not really posting to argue the point either or the fact that he said it, just providing some context via my own visits there.  You're welcome to question his credibility and form your opinions, but I think I would be safe in saying that he is a very well known and respected person in high level baseball circles.

justbaseball posted:

I agree, the statement doesn't make sense to me either.  But there are plenty of other experts that have one statement here or there that don't make sense to me either - but it doesn't diminish what they say on things they are indeed expert about.  On pitcher training and physiology, I (and many, many others) consider him an expert.  That part of the story is not diminished and should be considered when setting your son's pitching schedule.

The problem is that once a person shows that he will exaggerate so grossly in order to support his point in even a matter that isn't part of his expertise, it casts some doubt on anything else he offers. You have to ask yourselves every time he puts something out a notion supported by a fact if it is indeed a fact or is he exaggerating that piece of information to persuade you he's right. It removes the confidence you might otherwise have in taking what he says as a fact because its supported by his integrity. Not saying I'll stop listening to what he says or discount it, just that I no longer, after reading that statement, feel able to simply take his word for it as an expert without double-checking him.

9and7dad posted:

roothog66 posted:

I follow Cressey as well, but statements like this:

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

completely kill his credibility on this subject. Not only is this blatant BS preceded by a declaration of "honesty." It's either a complete lie/exaggeration that is so incredible a statement as to make me confident it can't be true or he's so out of touch that he believes it. I would think even the most pessimistic posters here wouldn't think that in all his years of training baseball players, he's only seen one kid "discovered" at a showcase. It's a dishonest statement and blows his credibility with me.

I'm not about to defend Cressey or argue your point but I can say this - If you've ever actually been to Cressey Sports Performance (I have - many times) and had kids who threw there (I have), you'd know that the type of client who typically works out there was discovered a long time ago.  Not a lot of newbies walking around CSP from my observations.  Not to say there aren't any, and not really posting to argue the point either or the fact that he said it, just providing some context via my own visits there.  You're welcome to question his credibility and form your opinions, but I think I would be safe in saying that he is a very well known and respected person in high level baseball circles.

I've never argued that he isn't well-known or well-respected, but so are guys like Jerry Ford and Cressey basically dismissed his entire life's work as useless and harmful and he did so with a blatantly ignorant statement that he quite likely knows to be untrue.

Actually, I found it disappointing because I do have a lot of respect for Eric Cressey and the work he does.

That was a very sobering post from cabbagedad.

As far as educating, just seems to me even when you try, it doesn't hit home, not until an injury occurs, maybe not even then.

roothog66 posted:

Actually, I found it disappointing because I do have a lot of respect for Eric Cressey and the work he does.

Does anyone know of anyone who has actually been "discovered " at a showcase? 

Keep in mind I am not asking about tournaments. I consider them two different type of events.

Also, one thing to remember is that most talented players from their specific area have already been identified.  

When son was in HS he was already known in the area, but "discovered" by his college program while at Jupiter. Actually, I am not sure he was actually discovered,  the coach already knew who he was just came to watch him pitch.  

I don't think his statement is too far off the mark.

TPM posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Is that bolded part still true? I was at a college game (D1) a week ago Monday. They played right before my son's high school game on the same field. We made a day out of it and the boys got out of school early to watch.

TPM posted:

roothog66 posted:

Actually, I found it disappointing because I do have a lot of respect for Eric Cressey and the work he does.

Does anyone know of anyone who has actually been "discovered " at a showcase? 

Keep in mind I am not asking about tournaments. I consider them two different type of events.

Also, one thing to remember is that most talented players from their specific area have already been identified.  

When son was in HS he was already known in the area, but "discovered" by his college program while at Jupiter. Actually, I am not sure he was actually discovered,  the coach already knew who he was just came to watch him pitch.  

I don't think his statement is too far off the mark.

Depends on what you define as "discovered".  If you mean they were discovered by a particular school, then yes, I know several.

One example is a now college freshman starting at a strong DII in the south.  He had aspirations and slight attention at a mid/lower DI, but the attention was always tempered.  This player is a good player, but wasn't one of the top prospect, high on the radar since HS freshman type.  He made HS JV as a frosh and soph and varsity as a Jr/Sr.  He didn't start as a Jr, but did as a Sr.

While the attention was always lukewarm from the local DI he wanted, he went to a local showcase and garnered a lot of attention, including being "discovered" by the DII for which he now starts.

I know several similar examples.  I believe that in the pond that Cressey swims, which is the high draft potential, top DI recruits, he is correct.  Probably not a lot of pure unknowns among that sample size discovered.  But for the rest of the mere mortals that play the game, I would venture that the vast majority are discovered at some sort of showcase or camp regularly.

I know there was one thread on here awhile back where one parent was saying his kid got "discovered" at a Headfirst showcase and wound up at that school.  To me, that is the definition of discovered--where a kid first got seen playing baseball by a college coach at a showcase or travel tournament and then wound up playing at that college.  That does not disqualify the kid who wanted to get a chance to play for that school and reached out to him ahead of time to let him know he would be at that upcoming showcase or tournament.

I have to believe that there are some here on this forum with a story like that.

kandkfunk posted:

TPM posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Is that bolded part still true? I was at a college game (D1) a week ago Monday. They played right before my son's high school game on the same field. We made a day out of it and the boys got out of school early to watch.

Most D1 programs classes have ended.  

Backstop22 posted:

I know there was one thread on here awhile back where one parent was saying his kid got "discovered" at a Headfirst showcase and wound up at that school.  To me, that is the definition of discovered--where a kid first got seen playing baseball by a college coach at a showcase or travel tournament and then wound up playing at that college.  That does not disqualify the kid who wanted to get a chance to play for that school and reached out to him ahead of time to let him know he would be at that upcoming showcase or tournament.

I have to believe that there are some here on this forum with a story like that.

Ok, I agree, there are exceptions to every rule.  

Showcases such as that certainly have their merit and have a important place in college recruiting, somewhat like the Stanford camps, but I am not sure that is what Cressey referred to, I think he more or less was speaking in terms of professional ball.

I apologize for not clarifying.

roothog66 posted:

justbaseball posted:

I agree, the statement doesn't make sense to me either.  But there are plenty of other experts that have one statement here or there that don't make sense to me either - but it doesn't diminish what they say on things they are indeed expert about.  On pitcher training and physiology, I (and many, many others) consider him an expert.  That part of the story is not diminished and should be considered when setting your son's pitching schedule.

The problem is that once a person shows that he will exaggerate so grossly in order to support his point in even a matter that isn't part of his expertise, it casts some doubt on anything else he offers. You have to ask yourselves every time he puts something out a notion supported by a fact if it is indeed a fact or is he exaggerating that piece of information to persuade you he's right. It removes the confidence you might otherwise have in taking what he says as a fact because its supported by his integrity. Not saying I'll stop listening to what he says or discount it, just that I no longer, after reading that statement, feel able to simply take his word for it as an expert without double-checking him.

Well, that cuts more than one way - right?

justbaseball posted:

roothog66 posted:

justbaseball posted:

I agree, the statement doesn't make sense to me either.  But there are plenty of other experts that have one statement here or there that don't make sense to me either - but it doesn't diminish what they say on things they are indeed expert about.  On pitcher training and physiology, I (and many, many others) consider him an expert.  That part of the story is not diminished and should be considered when setting your son's pitching schedule.

The problem is that once a person shows that he will exaggerate so grossly in order to support his point in even a matter that isn't part of his expertise, it casts some doubt on anything else he offers. You have to ask yourselves every time he puts something out a notion supported by a fact if it is indeed a fact or is he exaggerating that piece of information to persuade you he's right. It removes the confidence you might otherwise have in taking what he says as a fact because its supported by his integrity. Not saying I'll stop listening to what he says or discount it, just that I no longer, after reading that statement, feel able to simply take his word for it as an expert without double-checking him.

Well, that cuts more than one way - right?

Sorry. That may have gone right over my head. I get the feeling I am supposed to be offended but am too dense to understand exactly why.

TPM posted:

kandkfunk posted:

TPM posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Is that bolded part still true? I was at a college game (D1) a week ago Monday. They played right before my son's high school game on the same field. We made a day out of it and the boys got out of school early to watch.

Most D1 programs classes have ended.  

Hmm, not around here. Our State schools, including one of the schools playing, won't be out until June. I don't know about the other school. Not that it's a big deal. Just wondering.

kandkfunk posted:

TPM posted:

kandkfunk posted:

TPM posted:

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Is that bolded part still true? I was at a college game (D1) a week ago Monday. They played right before my son's high school game on the same field. We made a day out of it and the boys got out of school early to watch.

Most D1 programs classes have ended.  

Hmm, not around here. Our State schools, including one of the schools playing, won't be out until June. I don't know about the other school. Not that it's a big deal. Just wondering.

I think the rule under Bylaw 17 is that any athletic activity must be prohibited one day per calendar week. I would assume most schools would choose Mondays for the obvious reason. 

The obvious reason being that Mondays suck.

Nothing to be offended about.

Exaggeration is common amongst...nearly everyone, including expert posters on this message board - I'm sure even me (NOT an expert!!) at times.  Your willingness to dismiss one particular expert based on a possible(?)/probable(?) exaggeration about something not that relevant to the main point of his article diminishes your observation about that expert...to me at least.

Ok, maybe you should be offended?  Or maybe not.  But my earlier comment  a couple of weeks ago about your posts stands - I think you bring a lot to the table here.  We just don't agree on this.

justbaseball posted:

Nothing to be offended about.

Exaggeration is common amongst...nearly everyone, including expert posters on this message board - I'm sure even me (NOT an expert!!) at times.  Your willingness to dismiss one particular expert based on a possible(?)/probable(?) exaggeration about something not that relevant to the main point of his article diminishes your observation about that expert...to me at least.

Ok, maybe you should be offended?  Or maybe not.  But my earlier comment  a couple of weeks ago about your posts stands - I think you bring a lot to the table here.  We just don't agree on this.

OK. Maybe I should lay off the hyperbole a bit. In all honesty, I don't dismiss Cressey at all and probably will still be inclined to take him at his word on almost everything he offers. I just found that one statement to be a little off the wall.

Roothog,

Odd that you should bring that up.  that happens to be one of our major goals.

We don't want pitchers showing up at our events unless the timing is right.  Especially during the time most consider the off season.  in most cases we believe the timing is right for those pitchers that do attend.  Some have taken more than enough time off due to certain circumstances, like injury or scheduling. 

So the only way we can be positive is by educating people.  We are using PitchSmart rules, but that wont eliminate all the issues.  There is no way we can know what a pitcher is doing before or after our event.  In some cases good coaching takes care of the problem.  but nothing can be better than educating the players and the parents and hoping they understand.

What I consider "being discovered" is when the club or college first decided this is a guy they want. When I hear it worked out for so and so, he went in the 30th round without doing much of anything, I always wonder.  what would have happened if he did do those things.  who knows whether he would have been a 2nd rounder had more people seen him perform against potential 1st and 2nd rounders?  There's an awful lot of difference and not just monetarily in a 2nd rounder and a rd 30 guy.

I'm all for the great pitching gurus out there. Woolforth, Boddy, Cressey, etc.  They know what they are doing.  I'm just not sure any of them other than Ron Woolforth and Rick Peterson have ever been to a PG event.  Maybe they have and I just didn't know it.  If they haven't I think it would be helpful if they did attend one of the bigger events to see what goes on. 

Guess I just get tired of hearing the old "one shoe fits all" stuff.  Taking time off isnt exactly the same time off from one person to the next.  Some need to pitch more, that is why they have winter leagues in pro ball.  Most kids in Iowa take the spring off from baseball.  South Dakota doesn't have HS baseball.  Some quit pitching by July 1st, others quit at the end of October. Bumgarner threw more one the last couple days of October than anyone could call reasonable.  Yes, it was the World Series, and everyone wants to be playing at the end of October.

I really dont know of a single pitcher that pitches in games all year around, but I suppose there are some.

Someone should research Lucas Giolito. He is about ready to be called up.  Luckily everyone knew about him before his draft year, because he was injured and didn't pitch his last HS season.  He threw less than 10 innings in HS as a sophomore and not much more as a junior.  Probably less than 30 innings all year, counting the summer.  He did pitch in a couple PG events including one inning in the All American game as a junior.  Two innings in another one.  He also pitched in the Area Code Games.  And yes, he did light up the radar gun up to 97 or so.  He even attended the Jupiter event that year, but he did not pitch.  His dad was wise and made sure he never over did anything. 

The Nationals drafted him even knowing he was injured in the first round. They already saw him the two years before. Then he had TJ surgery before throwing a pitch in professional baseball.  If anything, Lucas threw far less pitches and had far more rest than almost any top pitching prospect we have ever known.  Arm care was vitally important in the Giolito household. 

I remember talking to his dad about a late season event and he politely said we are shutting Lucas down.  Very simple, no issue, clearly understood, he was doing the right thing.  Still ended up with TJ surgery.  Must have been those three innings he breezed through at PG events. Then again the wallet might be quite a bit lighter had he not thrown those three innings.  Because the guy most responsible for drafting him is a very good friend who watched those three innings right by my side.

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

Dominik85 posted:

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

Dominik85 -- I started a topic yesterday with a great blog post (IMO) from Kyle Boddy. Here's what he said about showcases -- you can decide for yourself whether he's being "critical" of showcases (I don't think so, but that's JMO):

"If you go to Perfect Game events when you aren’t any good, you are screwing yourself. “Exposure” is a two-way street – if you aren’t a top-flight guy, guess what? You’ve just shown everyone that you are an average-sized HS junior that throws 82-85 MPH with a bad breaking ball. That’s not a guy that commands Division-I attention at all. And the more you showcase your average tools, the more that version of you is imprinted on college recruiters and pro scouts. Even if you start to develop and get better, they again will remember the average toolsy version of you and it will take more to get them off their first impression.

Here’s what you do – attend showcases when you are clearly AT LEAST in the top quartile of performance for your age. If you show up, blow noise, rip breaking balls, and perform well, you will then get invites to the big national showcases at no charge. Then you attend those, do well, and guess what? Offers will come in and scouts will be sending you questionnaires to fill out.

If you showcase well at a young age, you will get a ton of shots down the line – this is similar to minor league ball, but that’s another discussion entirely. If you showcase poorly at a young age, scouts will remember that, and while it won’t doom you, it makes it harder to overcome those impressions."

2019Dad posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

Dominik85 -- I started a topic yesterday with a great blog post (IMO) from Kyle Boddy. Here's what he said about showcases -- you can decide for yourself whether he's being "critical" of showcases (I don't think so, but that's JMO):

"If you go to Perfect Game events when you aren’t any good, you are screwing yourself. “Exposure” is a two-way street – if you aren’t a top-flight guy, guess what? You’ve just shown everyone that you are an average-sized HS junior that throws 82-85 MPH with a bad breaking ball. That’s not a guy that commands Division-I attention at all. And the more you showcase your average tools, the more that version of you is imprinted on college recruiters and pro scouts. Even if you start to develop and get better, they again will remember the average toolsy version of you and it will take more to get them off their first impression.

Here’s what you do – attend showcases when you are clearly AT LEAST in the top quartile of performance for your age. If you show up, blow noise, rip breaking balls, and perform well, you will then get invites to the big national showcases at no charge. Then you attend those, do well, and guess what? Offers will come in and scouts will be sending you questionnaires to fill out.

If you showcase well at a young age, you will get a ton of shots down the line – this is similar to minor league ball, but that’s another discussion entirely. If you showcase poorly at a young age, scouts will remember that, and while it won’t doom you, it makes it harder to overcome those impressions."

I take Boddy's position as a pretty solid one. One problem is that most don't have a good idea of the timetable. That's really the kind of education I'm talking about. There is no one-size-fits-all. Often the question of when to start showcasing comes up here. There's no good answer without knowing a lot of details.

If you are a freshman pitcher throwing 85/86 (or a 6' 4" lefty throwing 84) with some good size, you're very likely to get an early look by D1's. If you are in the summer before your senior year with the same measurable you need to adjust your target audience and try to get in front of more welcoming schools. Perhaps you're better suited to target specific schools through camps. If you're a 5' 7" freshman throwing 78-79 you're wasting your money. There are so many variables it's mind boggling.

My son plays on a team that is a mix of 2018's and 2019's. There are some very talented 2019's including PG's 14u player of the year last year. That kid is a catcher who registered a 1.89 pop time at a PG showcase the summer before his freshman year and he can hit. He's already entertaining multiple offers. Another 2019 on the team just committed to Oregon State.  They were introduced to him at the same PG event. Those are freshman that should definitely have been there. I see others who are wasting their time. Some, I would even say shouldn't have showcased at all. They should have found some very specific schools that might be a fit for them and target them specifically. Bottom line is that it is up to the parents, player, and maybe his coaches to educate themselves and develop a reasonable timeframe and game plan for recruiting.

The reason showcases don't get results for most players is that most players aren't above average.

roothog - Thats a solid post IMO.  In my 10+ years on here, I don't recall a parent of a current player assessing the whole thing that clearly.  Certainly, I did not on our first son.

roothog66 posted:

2019Dad posted:

Dominik85 posted:

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

Dominik85 -- I started a topic yesterday with a great blog post (IMO) from Kyle Boddy. Here's what he said about showcases -- you can decide for yourself whether he's being "critical" of showcases (I don't think so, but that's JMO):

"If you go to Perfect Game events when you aren’t any good, you are screwing yourself. “Exposure” is a two-way street – if you aren’t a top-flight guy, guess what? You’ve just shown everyone that you are an average-sized HS junior that throws 82-85 MPH with a bad breaking ball. That’s not a guy that commands Division-I attention at all. And the more you showcase your average tools, the more that version of you is imprinted on college recruiters and pro scouts. Even if you start to develop and get better, they again will remember the average toolsy version of you and it will take more to get them off their first impression.

Here’s what you do – attend showcases when you are clearly AT LEAST in the top quartile of performance for your age. If you show up, blow noise, rip breaking balls, and perform well, you will then get invites to the big national showcases at no charge. Then you attend those, do well, and guess what? Offers will come in and scouts will be sending you questionnaires to fill out.

If you showcase well at a young age, you will get a ton of shots down the line – this is similar to minor league ball, but that’s another discussion entirely. If you showcase poorly at a young age, scouts will remember that, and while it won’t doom you, it makes it harder to overcome those impressions."

I take Boddy's position as a pretty solid one. One problem is that most don't have a good idea of the timetable. That's really the kind of education I'm talking about. There is no one-size-fits-all. Often the question of when to start showcasing comes up here. There's no good answer without knowing a lot of details.

If you are a freshman pitcher throwing 85/86 (or a 6' 4" lefty throwing 84) with some good size, you're very likely to get an early look by D1's. If you are in the summer before your senior year with the same measurable you need to adjust your target audience and try to get in front of more welcoming schools. Perhaps you're better suited to target specific schools through camps. If you're a 5' 7" freshman throwing 78-79 you're wasting your money. There are so many variables it's mind boggling.

My son plays on a team that is a mix of 2018's and 2019's. There are some very talented 2019's including PG's 14u player of the year last year. That kid is a catcher who registered a 1.89 pop time at a PG showcase the summer before his freshman year and he can hit. He's already entertaining multiple offers. Another 2019 on the team just committed to Oregon State.  They were introduced to him at the same PG event. Those are freshman that should definitely have been there. I see others who are wasting their time. Some, I would even say shouldn't have showcased at all. They should have found some very specific schools that might be a fit for them and target them specifically. Bottom line is that it is up to the parents, player, and maybe his coaches to educate themselves and develop a reasonable timeframe and game plan for recruiting.

you must be from CO, I just saw  that Oregon state info come up on my twitter  

I certainly don't have a problem with what Kyle Boddy wrote in that blog.  I think it is true.  Only thing I might somewhat disagree on is this... The most important time any scout or recruiter sees a player, is the last time they see him.  If the player has what they are looking for, it really doesn't matter what he did previously.  On the other hand the players history can actually be beneficial regarding projection.

You know, I have been saying this for 20 years... Perfect Game is not for everybody!  We cannot help every player.  It certainly doesn't help us if we have an event with no talent.  Some might claim it brings in money.  That is money we don't want.  It is not what we do and it would hinder our chance of success.

We do have open type events.  Pretty much anyone can attend.  Over the years I have answered many questions from parents wanting to know if attending this event will be beneficial.  I've said it here before many times, I will say it again.  If I don't know the player, how could I possibly know if the event will be beneficial for him.  So the same answer every time.

If your son has talent, you will be happy he attended.  If your son lacks talent, you will be throwing your money out the window.

Even after that, some still attend because they really don't know how talented their son is and they want to find out.  I guess I can understand that, but there are other less expensive ways to find out.

All that said, and this is just a guess... I would guess that well over 90% of the players we see have at least college potential.  

@PGStaff: We are one of those families that had no clue, shelled out bucks, spent countless hours in the heat & humidity,  always relegated to the "B" team, but learned the reality of his level of play and...would do it all again in a heartbeat!  Kid was barely recruited being asked to visit but one D-3 school during the Atlanta event. But, he has 'bragging' rights to having played (and lost miserably!) against top teams in country. He got to see all of those scouts lined up for other players and witness the frenzy of radar guns and notepads.  Yes, all of our vacations were baseball-only or -mostly events for a couple of years. But to the point of this thread: Yes, we, the parents, watched his arm and were able to time b/c of availability of numerous events. It was a heck of a lot of fun and a great adventure (which continues still at the D3 level).

ps. here's hoping you can figure out a way to activate scholarship programs for these costly adventures...

AL PAL,

Scholarships would be great, but they would have to come from the teams that participate.  The actual players in those tournaments don't pay us directly.

Anyway, I'm happy you and your son enjoyed the experience. It reminded me of something.

Awhile back I used that answer somewhere about If you have talent you'll be happy, if you don't have talent you are throwing away your money and someone read it and emailed me.

He said he understood what I was saying, but he and his son have a completely different outlook.  His son was one that lacked talent.  He didn't go on to play in college.  But something his son will never ever forget was getting the chance to hit against both Scott Kazmir and Chad Billingsley.

They were watching a game on television and Kazmir was pitching.  His son got a big smile on his face and said, there he is!  Didn't need to say much more, at that point his dad knew that event he went to was priceless.

So I guess there are always different ways to look at things.

Dominik85 posted:

Btw why are quite a few pitching gurus that make their living on getting pitchers recruited like kyle boddy or Cressey so critical on showcases? 

 RE: This and Jerry's comments... this makes no sense. I am going to clear the air here. If people read my blog articles on this topic, which it appears few have, then you'd see statements like this:

https://www.drivelinebaseball....johns-grip-pitchers/

---

But then Jonah quotes another anonymous AL executive who seems to be totally clueless about cause and effect:

“The rise of Perfect Game baseball and other summer travel baseball has dramatically decreased the off time for younger players. Kids are traveling all over the country from 8 years old on, and playing year-round. Colleges are recruiting younger and younger, and kids feel like if they don’t compete in every summer or fall event, they will lose their chance for exposure. That kind of exposure also leads to kids absolutely airing it out at max effort. When the section behind the plate is loaded with recruiters and scouts, kids absolutely take it up a notch and try to throw it through the backstop. The damage that is being done early can’t be undone by managing workloads once pitchers get into pro baseball.”

So… how is this Perfect Game’s fault, exactly? College and professional teams are the ones sending scouts to these events! If they were so concerned with keeping kids healthy, they would decrease the incentive to attend the events by not sending representatives of their teams. PG is only responding to market forces by providing events, and it’s a stretch to blame them specifically for decreasing the amount of time off, anyway.

---

In this article I EXPLICITLY DEFEND PERFECT GAME. 

RE: This comment by Jerry:

" If the player has what they are looking for, it really doesn't matter what he did previously."

This is 100% not true in my experience as someone who has worked inside MLB draft rooms. Plenty of comments about a kid having "one good day" at a showcase have been said about players, and some guys getting tagged as "showcase kids" in a negative connotation. I'm not saying it's fair. I'm saying that I've sat in draft rooms and I've been paid to work as a draft analyst and that's what is said. You can choose to believe me or not, but that's the deal.

My position is as clear as always: Perfect Game's All-American, National Championship, and Jupiter tournaments are vital for athletes to get the exposure they need on the national stage. The smaller regional events are good to go to for your first time (and pay money) to get put on the map so you can be invited to the larger PG events.

Going to PG events when you throw 78 or don't have good expectations or understandings about how good you or your son may be is and will continue to be a waste of time and money. The problem is that PG is incentivized to not say this for obvious reasons. And AGAIN I am not saying PG or Jerry personally believes that people should throw their money away; Jerry says very specifically in this thread they should not. I am saying there is a moral hazard by setting up tons of smaller PG events (some that occur during NCAA blackout periods) and then saying that you shouldn't waste your money.

FURTHERMORE: I have put a number of people into professional baseball by editing simple videos together for my pitchers and having scouts call me on players and visit our facility. Christian Meister was drafted by the Cleveland Indians despite NOT PLAYING IN COLLEGE DURING HIS DRAFT YEAR. He did not attend any showcases aside from the private ones I held and one area scouting event for the Diamondbacks. 

The only thing - and I cannot stress enough, the ONLY THING - that matters is that you project to be a professional athlete. That is the only thing you can control. And if you are, then you need exposure to some degree. But any focus on exposure before then is a waste of time.

But you have to consider that pg is not only for pro ball. There are guys wasting money but there might be an 83 throwing 5"9 righty pitcher who uses PG to get into a D3 school. For him that money is not wasted even though he is not a pro athlete.

Dominik85 posted:

But you have to consider that pg is not only for pro ball. There are guys wasting money but there might be an 83 throwing 5"9 righty pitcher who uses PG to get into a D3 school. For him that money is not wasted even though he is not a pro athlete.

D3 coaches usually do not attend the larger PG events. There are excellent showcases for D3 players.

It is wise to find out where your skill level lies.

JMO

Kyle,

I very much enjoyed reading the link you provided.

For the record, I have much respect for what you, Cressy and Woolforth do.  I know arm care has to be at the forefront of any good velocity or pitching program.  If it isn't we have a problem.

At the same time everyone knows that those with the most velocity will always be at risk.  The flip side is they also tend to be among the most successful.

I will admit that I don't agree with every word in that blog.  But I sure understand why someone would.  Over all, I would guess we both think alike in many ways.  From a scientific or strength and conditioning viewpoint I would be at the infant stage compared to people like you.  However I'm old and have been working with pitchers for a long time.  Yes, concentrating a lot on velocity!  In all those years I have had one pitcher require surgery.  That was because his HS coach treated him like a pitching machine.  Actually my son also had TJSurgery, but anyone that knows what happened ain't blaming me for that one.

While I agree that no pitcher should be pitching competitively year around. I don't agree that all pitchers are working on the same time line.  Also it bothers me greatly when the youngest age groups are mentioned along with Perfect Game.   For 20 years we did practically nothing with players below HS age.  So, there really can't be any documentation of those type injuries pertaining to us.  We are starting to get more and more involved in youth baseball.  We want to use it as a platform to educate young kids and their parents.  We think we can actually help, but some want to claim we have evil motives.

I am surprised when I see that people name Perfect Game so often.  I read things like "The Perfect Game Generation" and don't understand.  Don't people realize there are far less kids playing in PG events than MANY other organizations.  And maybe the biggest difference is, for the most part, we actually know how many pitches and how many innings and how hard every pitch has been thrown at our events.  Of course, mistakes are made once in awhile.  

You know I have done so much research about TJ surgeries and Perfect Game connections it makes my head swim.  Yet, not one person has ever asked for any of that.  In fact, almost anyone could do the same research, it would just take a lot longer because they wouldn't have the same access to our database.  

Once again, thanks for that link and your opinions.  I think you really care and that is the most important thing there is.  All the best!

TPM,

You would be surprised how many small college coaches attend some of the events.  It even surprised me when I saw the number of DIII coaches that subscribe to CrossChecker.  It is a fairly economical way to find players when you don't have much of a recruiting budget.  Then the number of kids we see that end up playing small college baseball is kind of amazing.  I know most think we just care about Pro Prospects and DI players when they see the results.  But there's probably more that we see that end up in small colleges all over the country.  We really don't see very many players that simply can't play at the next level.  I don't think many of those type players want to go to our events.

Remember when Bill Clinton said under oath ...It depends on what the meaning of IS....IS. That was a terrible statement by a highly educated man, but most Americans bought it. Cressey is educated and knows what he is talking about and has a great track record. I don't know if I would tar and feather him just yet over a unpopular quote, that may just needs to be explained a little better.

PGStaff posted:

Kyle,

I very much enjoyed reading the link you provided.

For the record, I have much respect for what you, Cressy and Woolforth do.  I know arm care has to be at the forefront of any good velocity or pitching program.  If it isn't we have a problem.

At the same time everyone knows that those with the most velocity will always be at risk.  The flip side is they also tend to be among the most successful.

I will admit that I don't agree with every word in that blog.  But I sure understand why someone would.  Over all, I would guess we both think alike in many ways.  From a scientific or strength and conditioning viewpoint I would be at the infant stage compared to people like you.  However I'm old and have been working with pitchers for a long time.  Yes, concentrating a lot on velocity!  In all those years I have had one pitcher require surgery.  That was because his HS coach treated him like a pitching machine.  Actually my son also had TJSurgery, but anyone that knows what happened ain't blaming me for that one.

While I agree that no pitcher should be pitching competitively year around. I don't agree that all pitchers are working on the same time line.  Also it bothers me greatly when the youngest age groups are mentioned along with Perfect Game.   For 20 years we did practically nothing with players below HS age.  So, there really can't be any documentation of those type injuries pertaining to us.  We are starting to get more and more involved in youth baseball.  We want to use it as a platform to educate young kids and their parents.  We think we can actually help, but some want to claim we have evil motives.

I am surprised when I see that people name Perfect Game so often.  I read things like "The Perfect Game Generation" and don't understand.  Don't people realize there are far less kids playing in PG events than MANY other organizations.  And maybe the biggest difference is, for the most part, we actually know how many pitches and how many innings and how hard every pitch has been thrown at our events.  Of course, mistakes are made once in awhile.  

You know I have done so much research about TJ surgeries and Perfect Game connections it makes my head swim.  Yet, not one person has ever asked for any of that.  In fact, almost anyone could do the same research, it would just take a lot longer because they wouldn't have the same access to our database.  

Once again, thanks for that link and your opinions.  I think you really care and that is the most important thing there is.  All the best!

TPM,

You would be surprised how many small college coaches attend some of the events.  It even surprised me when I saw the number of DIII coaches that subscribe to CrossChecker.  It is a fairly economical way to find players when you don't have much of a recruiting budget.  Then the number of kids we see that end up playing small college baseball is kind of amazing.  I know most think we just care about Pro Prospects and DI players when they see the results.  But there's probably more that we see that end up in small colleges all over the country.  We really don't see very many players that simply can't play at the next level.  I don't think many of those type players want to go to our events.

You know that I am glad that you addressed that because I have read quite often that if a player wanted to attend a D3 program a D1 major event or showcase was not for them. Thats not to say that the academic showcases are not a good fit. I think we dont do enough here to help our members whose players fall into that category.  

You and I know that D3 coaches do not attend many D1 events. I have gotten lots of pms asking where would be the best showcase to attend for a D3 player. So I tell them that if a player is interested in attending a D3 program, its best to attend events that would be better suited for them and their folks pocketbook, along with a referral to our parents of D3 players.  Showcases are costly and so is the travel associated so its best to choose wisely.  Thank you to all those that jump in when a question is asked, because I admit I still have very little knowledge about D3 recruiting.

While we are on the subject, I would like to hear more about those college guys who displayed professional skills and could have been drafted out of HS, but went to college. These are the real stories that people should know about, because in all reality, for most players, college should always be the focus even for players that arent college material, there are plenty of MLB guys who came out of JUCO programs.  I am rooting for all of the college boys who will be the next first rounders, not necessarily the few HS guys who still have years ahead of them in milb.  The good thing is that their money will make life a whole lot better for them to grow up in.  

Can you tell I am 100% for a player to head to college first? You bet!!!

We have to remember who our audience is and where they are headed, for most its often not even D1 let alone professional ball and never will be.

JMO

All I can tell you about is what we experienced.  Our older son had one of the busiest 'big recruiting' summers you could imagine.  Jr. Sunbelt, PG National, USA team, TeamOne (another showcase at the time), Stanford Camp, AAU Nationals, Area Codes, AFLAC All American game.  Probably one or two other things.

These things all snowballed - at first he woulda done half of them, perhaps.  But then one fed or led to another 'can't miss that' opportunity.  Thats what people kept telling us.

And when all of that went incredibly well - the pressure mounted from several directions to get him to Jupiter in the late Fall.  He was worn out - I was worn out.  But he ramped up again and went.  Did fine, but he was tired.

He didn't need to be 'discovered' anymore, he just needed to train and be ready for a good HS season - which he didn't particularly have.  Tired still?  I don't know.  Mentally for sure.  But physically?  Don't know but some scouts thought he was too tired.  They were probably right.

I should have managed it much, MUCH better.  10 years later just after he broke into the big leagues and seemed on the verge of sticking, he had TJ.  No way for me to tie it directly to any one thing - except I do know we succumbed to the hype and pressure and 'you promised' too, too much back then.  We just did.  My fault, no one else's.

Now I read this race begins in 8th or 9th grade and no one can pull it back.  I think(?) some will see it differently in a few years.  I do.

I don't blame anyone for this - except maybe me.  I should have managed it better.  Mr. Giolito is/was smarter than me.  But to say the pressure doesn't come is incorrect.  It came big-time, from many directions.

This is an 'advice' site - one where parents or players can read about all experiences and all angles.  I think Eric Cressey is right about his main point.  I base that not only on his reputation, but on tying it to our own experiences.  This doesn't have to be specific to a top-recruit/player.  It can be the parent of a potential D2/D3 pitcher trying to be seen at every opportunity just to get to the edges of college ball.  I've seen this happen in that situation too.

I am not upset at anyone.  He got more than I coulda dreamed about - Stanford scholarship, drafted, ultimately made it to the big leagues.  But  I coulda done better by him.

If you're open to listening, do a better job than me.

TPM,

No doubt that college is the best route for most.  Just what is best for most, isn't best for everyone.

Yes, you are correct, there are events that are very selective for DI and Pro prospects.  Very few of those players will end up at a DIII college.  But there are other events and players that have many players who will  end up at smaller colleges.  Actually the biggest scouting attraction in baseball is Jupiter.  The last few years we have seen more and more DIII coaches attending.  Sure there are first Rd draft picks and power college program recruits, but there are also many very good players that will end up at DII, DIII, NAIA and Jucos.  It is a great place for small college coaches to find talent.

Justbaseball,

I'm not sure what you are trying to say.  Your son went to all those events, he then played at Stanford, he was drafted, and then he made it to the Big Leagues.  Then he had TJ surgery.  And now you are thinking you made some big mistakes?  Is that because of the TJ surgery?  Surely you're not thinking Jupiter 10 years ago was the reason he had TJ surgery?  

Also, I don't understand the "you promised" comment.  Maybe I read that wrong, but who promised anything.  I know I have never promised anyone anything outside our control.

Anyway, I think you did very well with both your sons that play baseball.  You should be very proud.  Your older son is to this day someone I have a ton of respect for.   Many would have had a hard time coming back from that injury in the Cape.   There are millions that would like to follow that path you took to get the results your sons have had.

I definitely agree that it is not necessary to do everything, but it is a good thing if you're wanted.  In fact, it is a very good thing.  These days it is kid of rare to see a pitcher in Jupiter that was in our All American game.  Also rare if we see a pitcher there that played for the USA team in late Aug/Sept. It is extremely rare to see any of those pitchers along with those that pitched in Jupiter at our January World Showcase.  So as near as we can tell, the top pitchers are not showing up at all the biggest events these days.

People need to find a good path.  There is no such thing as a "can't miss" event. There are just some that are better than others. The truth is there are some Major League All Stars that never attended any of the events mentioned.

Is there something going on here that I'm not aware of?

justbaseball posted:

All I can tell you about is what we experienced.  Our older son had one of the busiest 'big recruiting' summers you could imagine.  Jr. Sunbelt, PG National, USA team, TeamOne (another showcase at the time), Stanford Camp, AAU Nationals, Area Codes, AFLAC All American game.  Probably one or two other things.

These things all snowballed - at first he woulda done half of them, perhaps.  But then one fed or led to another 'can't miss that' opportunity.  Thats what people kept telling us.

And when all of that went incredibly well - the pressure mounted from several directions to get him to Jupiter in the late Fall.  He was worn out - I was worn out.  But he ramped up again and went.  Did fine, but he was tired.

He didn't need to be 'discovered' anymore, he just needed to train and be ready for a good HS season - which he didn't particularly have.  Tired still?  I don't know.  Mentally for sure.  But physically?  Don't know but some scouts thought he was too tired.  They were probably right.

I should have managed it much, MUCH better.  10 years later just after he broke into the big leagues and seemed on the verge of sticking, he had TJ.  No way for me to tie it directly to any one thing - except I do know we succumbed to the hype and pressure and 'you promised' too, too much back then.  We just did.  My fault, no one else's.

Now I read this race begins in 8th or 9th grade and no one can pull it back.  I think(?) some will see it differently in a few years.  I do.

I don't blame anyone for this - except maybe me.  I should have managed it better.  Mr. Giolito is/was smarter than me.  But to say the pressure doesn't come is incorrect.  It came big-time, from many directions.

This is an 'advice' site - one where parents or players can read about all experiences and all angles.  I think Eric Cressey is right about his main point.  I base that not only on his reputation, but on tying it to our own experiences.  This doesn't have to be specific to a top-recruit/player.  It can be the parent of a potential D2/D3 pitcher trying to be seen at every opportunity just to get to the edges of college ball.  I've seen this happen in that situation too.

I am not upset at anyone.  He got more than I coulda dreamed about - Stanford scholarship, drafted, ultimately made it to the big leagues.  But  I coulda done better by him.

If you're open to listening, do a better job than me.

Awesome post.  Thanks for sharing your experience.  I get quite a few emails and snail mail for baseball and football recruiting and showcases for my 2017.  I'm trying to be very selective on what I spend my money. 

PGStaff - Thank you for the kind words re/ our sons - I sincerely appreciate them. 

I need to make something clear.  Perfect Game is absolutely the best showcase operator out there.  I give them credit for ‘discovering’ our older son on a national level.  They draw bushels of scouts and their events are well run.  All of that is a fact.  The ONLY things we are discussing and perhaps disagreeing about are timing, age groups, who should and shouldn’t showcase and how you can manage your pitcher son better than me.

PG - I think I wrote several times in that post above that I wasn’t blaming anyone for anything and in particular I wrote that there is no way for me to tie our son’s TJ to any one thing.  I also wrote that the outcomes for our sons far exceeded anything I dreamed about.  I am not looking back disappointed. I am looking in the rear view mirror with more experiences under my belt and reflecting on things that I/we did (good and bad) and proposing that IMO there is/was a better way.

When I read that a tremendously well respected trainer says that showcasing/playing in the Winter is probably not a good idea for young pitchers and when I tie that to what we experienced, I have to agree!  And when I think of how our sons added velocity and were fresh and ready-to-go in the Spring by taking time off in the winter to finally properly train as pro ball players - I have to agree even more!!

It is clear (and I accept) that the recruiting time line is earlier now.  But if your son is super talented, I say there is even more incentive to wait until you’re sure you have the right college fit and I say that there’s good reason to hold back as other parents have figured out to do - and to not be in a rush to do too much, too soon and too often.

justbaseball posted:

PGStaff - Thank you for the kind words re/ our sons - I sincerely appreciate them. 

I need to make something clear.  Perfect Game is absolutely the best showcase operator out there.  I give them credit for ‘discovering’ our older son on a national level.  They draw bushels of scouts and their events are well run.  All of that is a fact.  The ONLY things we are discussing and perhaps disagreeing about are timing, age groups, who should and shouldn’t showcase and how you can manage your pitcher son better than me.

PG - I think I wrote several times in that post above that I wasn’t blaming anyone for anything and in particular I wrote that there is no way for me to tie our son’s TJ to any one thing.  I also wrote that the outcomes for our sons far exceeded anything I dreamed about.  I am not looking back disappointed. I am looking in the rear view mirror with more experiences under my belt and reflecting on things that I/we did (good and bad) and proposing that IMO there is/was a better way.

When I read that a tremendously well respected trainer says that showcasing/playing in the Winter is probably not a good idea for young pitchers and when I tie that to what we experienced, I have to agree!  And when I think of how our sons added velocity and were fresh and ready-to-go in the Spring by taking time off in the winter to finally properly train as pro ball players - I have to agree even more!!

It is clear (and I accept) that the recruiting time line is earlier now.  But if your son is super talented, I say there is even more incentive to wait until you’re sure you have the right college fit and I say that there’s good reason to hold back as other parents have figured out to do - and to not be in a rush to do too much, too soon and too often.

If what you took from the article is that "showcasing/playing in the Winter is probably not a good idea," then, with the caveat that the idea is a significant period of rest whether it be Winter, Fall or (say in Iowa), Spring, there would be no controversy. I think every reasonable person would agree. That's not the contention that is at issue. It's Cressey's statement that:

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

This demeans what PG, PBR, Head First and others do by, 1) making a blatantly ridiculous statement and 2) seeming to make the assumption that it is the sole responsibility of these marketers of useless showcases to mandate a particular rest schedule to all young players. There's certainly no controversy that rest is important, but that's up to the parents and players. There are a lot of bars on my way home from work. It wouldn't be the liquor industry's fault if I felt pressured by their advertising to stop and have a drink at every one of them.

Cressey also - and I don't want to assume too much from his statements - seems to make the assumption that the showcase/tournament schedule is all about getting kids to pro ball and seems to ignore the fact that the vast majority of participants aren't thinking mlb. They're thinking of the next step available to them - college.

I don't think I criticized any showcase operator.  In fact, I gave one great praise!!  And I agree with your assertion that a bar on your drive home isn't responsible for you choosing to get drunk either.  A tournament in Florida in December after a busy summer was certainly my/our decision...and in retrospect was my mistake!  I believe I have said that at least 2 or 3 times!!

We already discussed the one statement you are locked onto.  We are in agreement about the 'discovery' number.  I've said that already too!!  Others make broad/generalized claims that I don't buy either.  We are not locking into those.  However, I don't think Cressey is demeaning anyone either - at least I didn't read it that way but sometimes the written word can be interpreted very differently than intended.  He is saying there wasn't a need to risk the pitcher's arm by doing the December event - that the player would have been discovered anyways, just a 1/2 year later.  My takeaway is his advice about timing - and on that I agree when I connect it to what I saw and experienced then and now.  In retrospect, our older son's evaluation by scouts in his HS season was far more impactful than their evaluation of his pitching at an event in December.  I believe I disrupted a better training regimen to have him pitch in a December event and possibly(?) adding to the fatigue he seemed to have in the Spring.

Again, thats on ME!! Not on any showcase operator.  (Isn't that about 4 times now?)  I wish I had been locked into Eric Cressey back then, rather than locked into people telling me I had to get him to an event in December.  I am crystal clear in my thinking about that now.  But that is 100% on me.

We are giving different perspectives to parents of young players on here - thats all.   If you or anyone else don't wanna account for Cressey's comments or if you think mine are irrelevant - we have no problem there either.  I am simply stating my opinion, based on my own experiences.  I would (and did when I had a 2nd chance) do it differently.  I'm pretty pleased with how that turned out too.

justbaseball posted:

I don't think I criticized any showcase operator.  In fact, I gave one great praise!!  And I agree with your assertion that a bar on your drive home isn't responsible for you choosing to get drunk either.  A tournament in Florida in December after a busy summer was certainly my/our decision...and in retrospect was my mistake!  I believe I have said that at least 2 or 3 times!!

We already discussed the one statement you are locked onto.  We are in agreement about the 'discovery' number.  I've said that already too!!  Others make broad/generalized claims that I don't buy either.  We are not locking into those.  However, I don't think Cressey is demeaning anyone either - at least I didn't read it that way but sometimes the written word can be interpreted very differently than intended.  He is saying there wasn't a need to risk the pitcher's arm by doing the December event - that the player would have been discovered anyways, just a 1/2 year later.  My takeaway is his advice about timing - and on that I agree when I connect it to what I saw and experienced then and now.  In retrospect, our older son's evaluation by scouts in his HS season was far more impactful than their evaluation of his pitching at an event in December.  I believe I disrupted a better training regimen to have him pitch in a December event and possibly(?) adding to the fatigue he seemed to have in the Spring.

Again, thats on ME!! Not on any showcase operator.  (Isn't that about 4 times now?)  I wish I had been locked into Eric Cressey back then, rather than locked into people telling me I had to get him to an event in December.  I am crystal clear in my thinking about that now.  But that is 100% on me.

We are giving different perspectives to parents of young players on here - thats all.   If you or anyone else don't wanna account for Cressey's comments or if you think mine are irrelevant - we have no problem there either.  I am simply stating my opinion, based on my own experiences.  I would (and did when I had a 2nd chance) do it differently now.  I'm pretty pleased with how that turned out too.

 

Here's the problem with where we're at right now - we're arguing about things that we don't at all disagree on. My point was just that I believe that you're defending a position (rest is necessary) that I don't see anyone has attacked. My point od contention is simply that Cressey dismisses showcases categorically by basically saying that they produce injuries and serve no purpose. I'm only arguing that aspect of his article. I certainly don't disagree with his opinion that Winter should be used for something other than showcase/travel, though I wouldn't necessarily single out Winter specifically.

So, given that, I guess the question is, do you support his position that "no one is 'discovered' at a showcase and that all of those kids who end up signing NLI's would have had the same opportunities if they DID NOT showcase? I don't think they would. That's the ONLY bone I have to pick with Cressey's comments. If I have somehow come across as supporting the opinion that players should play/showcase year 'round, I apologize for my lack of clarity.

Again, as to all of the positions you have posted in this thread, I really don't think I disagree at all.

We agree about his comment - "I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase."

I think I've said that now 2 or 3 times as well.  Maybe I need to apologize about my own clarity?

justbaseball posted:

We agree about his comment - "I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase."

I think I've said that now 2 or 3 times as well.  Maybe I need to apologize about my own clarity?

No, no. I re-read your post after I posted mine and realized you had just basically said the exact same thing. That's on me. I apologize.

Justball,

i'm more confused, did I read correctly?  Your son attended a Perfect Game event in December?  Not according to our records.  Could you be thinking the event in Jupiter was n December.  That event was actually held Oct. 24th, that year. In fact, it is always in October.  And the month of October has always been an active baseball month in California.  Though, I know there are pitchers that are shut down before that.  Actually most colleges are just winding down their fall schedule at that time.  Many are playing their final scrimmages at that time and those can be pretty competitive. That means pitchers pitching in competitive games.

I have nothing against anyone... Just that the statement he has only known of one player that was ever discovered at a showcase.  And that could easily be a true statement by itself.  However, I have known thousands that have been discovered at a showcase. And every college coach that attends certain events has discovered players at a showcase.  So has pretty much every Scouting Department. And players and parents, even some that post right here, know where they were discovered by those trying to recruit them.  None of this takes away from the expertise someone might have. It just kind of surprises me that he only knows of one player ever that was discovered at a showcase.  I know of many Major League players that were discovered at a showcase and many of those players have said that.

It's probably another topic all together.  What is being discovered?  In some way, every player is discovered somewhere.   But is being discovered by the local small college and being discovered by a Vanderbilt the same thing?  We discover lots of outstanding players every year.  When that happens others then discover them.   If there are a hundred or more college recruiters at an event with a couple hundred extremely talented kids, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out a lot of players are going to be discovered for the first time by somebody.

When I read the article, I do not consider events such as Jupiter a showcase.

I got booed on another topic because a dad came to ask questions regarding his son who just finished his freshman year and attending some local showcase this weekend. He asked about when his son should throw a 40 or so pitch bull pen before the showcase. He stated that the schedule on day one  will be showing skills (purpose of a showcase) throw a bullpen, throw from infield, outfield, 60, etc.  Then there will be games the next day.  I questioned this. Thats a lot of throwing off the mound in a few days. The dad is looking forward to finding out his velocity.

IMO, this is what I am gathering that Cressey is referring to, and for the life of me I don't see how anyone does get discovered at these type of events early in HS.  Although this one is occurring 2 weeks after HS has ended, the majority of these events occur after tournament season ends in fall.

As far as my own player, as a junior, he attended jupiter in the fall shut down then attended a college camp and one PG showcase in Ft Myers in jupiter but here in FL the HS season starts in february.  And if you dont know how to properly manage this, your pitcher can get hurt.  He had just attended Jupiter tourney and identified in the 90 group, and seen by the pitching coach from Clemson.   In June, pretty early in the travel season, he pitched in a tourney out in Omaha, and a few days later at the PG National.  I am not sure that was a wise decision on anyone's part.  He really didn't do as well as he should have and that was the last showcase he ever attended. 

While I realize recruiting begins much earlier and he was older, the mention of all of this not being healthy for young pitchers makes a lot of sense to me. We see players much younger beginning to attend more college camps and showcases AFTER the summer and fall tournament season ends and actually extending outdoors into cooler months. Isn't this, according to Cressey when a pitcher should be shut down?

I think we are all on the same page as far as being smart and using common sense and no one is forcing anyone to do anything. But the current atmosphere of landing a scholarship earlier and earlier, combined with the dreams of being drafted and getting rich has created situations for some where all intellect goes out the window.

Argue all you want, but more and more youth pitchers are hurt before they reach their senior HS season.

JMO

Don't be more confused PG.  Ok, late October - I was only going off memory.  Still, he was worn out.  Had to ramp up yet again after a busy summer.  Shoudn't have gone.  Others should think about their pitcher and is he really in good shape to do these things - or not?

Then there was the pressure to go to World Showcase - was it December?  January?  Ft. Meyers?  We finally had to say no despite the phone calls.  Glad we did.

IMO, college Fall ball is not that conducive to pitcher health either.  Glad our younger son got to take it off his senior year.  Our 2 sons - now pro pitchers - are completely shut down beginning in September and are then working on core strength.  Not back in the bullpen until mid-to-late January depending on when they are going to Spring Training (mid February to early March depending on which camp).  With this routine, they have been much stronger, including velocity bumps, at the beginning of the season and throughout.

TPM posted:

 

Argue all you want, but more and more youth pitchers are hurt before they reach their senior HS season.

JMO

While I agree with a lot you say, I have to ask if this statement is actually true. I believe there have always been too many kids hurt, but no more today than ever before. This is not a statement for the status quo. Honestly, though, we throw this around as if it's a fact and yet no one offers any support for it. The only statistic I ever see used in support is that surgeons are reporting that they see younger and younger patients. However, the fact that more players seek treatment than did in past times doesn't prove anything more than that more players seek treatment than they used to. It wasn't that long ago that a blown UCL would never have reached even a general practitioner, let alone a surgeon. Parents simply didn't run their kid to the doctor for a hurt elbow - they just stopped pitching.

To be clear, I am all for current efforts to make pitching more arm safe, I just am not sure it's at all correct to think that there has been some dramatic increase in arm injuries. I'm not seeing it.

Interesting article on ESPN by Tony Blengino about the 2006 draft. At the time, he was assistant scouting director for the Brewers. http://espn.go.com/mlb/insider...e-cod-play-draft-day   Subscription required for the full article, but there was this tidbit about Jupiter:

"In late October, while two clubs are duking it out for the World Series title, the scouting personnel of the other 28 teams descend en masse to Jupiter, Florida, for the World Wood Bat Championship, featuring all of the best high school talent in the country. Games are on 15 or more fields, from dawn to dusk, for four looooooong days.

Scouting staffs need to devise master plans to see all the talent on display. Golf carts are rented to race from field to field, and if you're lucky, you find yourself at a cluster of four fields featuring high-level talent on each. You are not making final decisions on prospects -- far from it -- but it's a unique opportunity to prioritize players for the following spring."

roothog66 posted:

TPM posted:

 

Argue all you want, but more and more youth pitchers are hurt before they reach their senior HS season.

JMO

While I agree with a lot you say, I have to ask if this statement is actually true. I believe there have always been too many kids hurt, but no more today than ever before. This is not a statement for the status quo. Honestly, though, we throw this around as if it's a fact and yet no one offers any support for it. The only statistic I ever see used in support is that surgeons are reporting that they see younger and younger patients. However, the fact that more players seek treatment than did in past times doesn't prove anything more than that more players seek treatment than they used to. It wasn't that long ago that a blown UCL would never have reached even a general practitioner, let alone a surgeon. Parents simply didn't run their kid to the doctor for a hurt elbow - they just stopped pitching.

To be clear, I am all for current efforts to make pitching more arm safe, I just am not sure it's at all correct to think that there has been some dramatic increase in arm injuries. I'm not seeing it.

When your son goes to a top ortho surgeon and he says that there is a rise across the board in all sport injuries you don't need anymore proof than that. More and more kids are into sports than ever before, due to the opportunities for both men and women. So that would mean a rise in injuries as well.

And I have been here for a long time and the posts asking about I juries has increased and not just the usual aches and pains.

Very interesting topic that I have been following.  I can honestly say I agree with most everything that has been posted.  I certainly agree that kids should take time off to train, but I also understand the desire to have your son pitch at the big events because it can be life changing.  My son is just finishing his freshman year at LSU.  He is also 5 months post TJ surgery that caused him to miss his entire freshman year.  I have chronicled his journey here before, so I won't go in detail again.  I will say that he was "discovered" at a PG event.  It was during the summer and was a tournament as opposed to a showcase.  When you are from small town USA, it is much more difficult to get seen.  How many times has it been said on this very board not to follow the "if I'm good enough, they will find me" advice?  I think this fact may be some of the driving force that makes parents make some decisions that they look back on and realize may or may not have been the best decision.  I think that is what justbaseball is saying.  He learned some things with his first son that caused him to do things a bit different with son #2.  I only have one son.  I had very little idea what to do.  There were a few talented players older than my son and I did ask their parents for some advice.  Every decision we made was filtered through the "when is enough, enough" lens.  My son was no different than most on this site.  He aspired to play at the highest level, that being professional baseball.  He was first identified during the summer between his sophomore and junior year by a mid level D1 school after their PC saw him pitch one inning while the coach was there to evaluate a teammate.  I guess we could have said, hey we have a scholarship so we are gonna shut down and focus on high school and training.  His desire was to play at a larger D1 school.  I felt like he had the talent, but I was also worried that I was "that dad" looking through my rose-colored glasses.  We took nothing for granted.  We visited the school and they made a very nice offer.  In all honesty, it was very difficult to look past the bird in the hand while waiting for the one in the bush.  The kids have their dream, but its my job as his parent not to let him let a good thing get away.  This was our delima.  We sat on that scholarship offer for a year.  The big in-state university had seen him a little later in the summer and asked him to wait until they could see him the next summer.  He did attend a camp that fall at his dream school, and they liked what they saw, but also told him they needed to see him the next summer in game situations.  So it was a gut-wrenching waiting game.  On one hand I had his travel coach and many others telling me to wait it out that he would get better offers, but he also had a good offer from a good school in hand.  There in lies the delima.  So you continue to go out and compete to try to get the better offer from the bigger program.  In our case, it did work out that he got a great offer from his dream school.  I realize this is rare and he is very fortunate.  Did chasing the dream cost him TJ surgery?  I don't know.  Its very possible he would have had the surgery without the summer and fall ball.  I can tell you he never had issues in the summer of fall, only in school ball.  So I just don't know.  Would I change anything if I had a do over?  Again, I don't know.  My son's story isn't written.  He hopefully will recover 100% and have the opportunity to continue chasing his dream of playing professional baseball.  At least now I am pretty sure he has the talent.  The issue going forward is can he get and stay healthy.  So I really am a fence straddler on this issue as I can identify with both sides of the argument. 

TPM posted:

roothog66 posted:

TPM posted:

 

Argue all you want, but more and more youth pitchers are hurt before they reach their senior HS season.

JMO

While I agree with a lot you say, I have to ask if this statement is actually true. I believe there have always been too many kids hurt, but no more today than ever before. This is not a statement for the status quo. Honestly, though, we throw this around as if it's a fact and yet no one offers any support for it. The only statistic I ever see used in support is that surgeons are reporting that they see younger and younger patients. However, the fact that more players seek treatment than did in past times doesn't prove anything more than that more players seek treatment than they used to. It wasn't that long ago that a blown UCL would never have reached even a general practitioner, let alone a surgeon. Parents simply didn't run their kid to the doctor for a hurt elbow - they just stopped pitching.

To be clear, I am all for current efforts to make pitching more arm safe, I just am not sure it's at all correct to think that there has been some dramatic increase in arm injuries. I'm not seeing it.

When your son goes to a top ortho surgeon and he says that there is a rise across the board in all sport injuries you don't need anymore proof than that. More and more kids are into sports than ever before, due to the opportunities for both men and women. So that would mean a rise in injuries as well.

And I have been here for a long time and the posts asking about I juries has increased and not just the usual aches and pains.

 

 

 

I see you may have missed my point on the logic problem with this argument. More parents now seek out treatment for arm injuries. This hasn't been true for the vast majority of the history of youth sports. So, of course, as more patients seek treatment, doctors see more injuries. As an analogy, you can't use a decrease in the number of ulcer surgeries as proof that ulcers are on the decline. The treatment regimen has changed. Not that long ago, only a select few injured pitchers would have seen an ortho. The common story was of the pitcher who "threw his arm out" and stopped pitching. They didn't go to the doctor, they just stopped pitching. So, if someone can show statistics other than doctor's statements that they see more patients, you have some proof. I say that realizing that it's a catch 22. Here's where I think we create our own problem. We assume some rise in injury rates, so we look at how things were done and the way things are currently being done and assume that it is the difference in the two that causes the rise in injuries. This is a failing viewpoint. Wouldn't it be better to simply say that pitching has always produced injuries. Ask why this is and then look for ways to reduce the risk?

Statistically, about the only way to even analyze whether arm injuries are increasing is mlb's dl. What we see there is a statistically insignificant decrease in days lost to arm injuries. However, as treatment options evolve, days lost decrease anyway, so even this is not determinative.

It's also logically not useful to use this board and your perceived experience on it as proof of an increase in injury rates. I've been on this board since about 2007 and haven't been slapped in the face with any real feeling that injuries have increased. Even id there were more reports on this board, there are a couple of logic problems using that as support. First, the number of members on this board is constantly increasing and, I'm sure is exponentially a larger group than was here 10 years ago. Second, it's a select group. There are probably a large number of posters who specifically found this board because they were searching for information for their injured sons. So, this is a group that would naturally have a far larger percentage of arm injuries than a general selection of youth players

To try and sum up my argument, I believe its better to admit that pitching injuries are higher than they need to be and, in fact, have always been higher than they need to be. With proper research and testing, we have a greater ability to do something about that than ever before. If we spend too much time trying to figure out how changes in the past few years have increased injury rates because we've made a false assumption, then we could be wasting time.

Ok let's try this again, let me reword this. There is a rise in youth injuries in every sport. There are more and more opportunities for kids to play more and more often which increases injury. Not just HS players but grade school age. 

FWIW I never mentioned professional ball.

Done.

Root, I hate to go all scientific on you BUT....the numbers support TPM's assertion that there has been an increase.  HOWEVER, I will agree that the numbers say nothing about WHY it happens, just that the numbers have increased. 

If you go back and look at the amount of children playing travel ball 20 years ago or even 10 years ago there are WAY more kids now playing.  There are way more articles about the death of rec ball, and WAY more articles about how travel ball has become a watered down daddy ball mess of a sport.

For arguments sake let's say there were exactly 2,000 kids playing Travel baseball 10 years ago.  Let's say only 1% ever had arm issues, that is 20 kids.  Let's say today that 5,000 kids play Travel Baseball, that 1% comes out to 50 kids. The percentage of injuries may not have increased, but the actual number of injuries has increased.

TPM posted:

Ok let's try this again, let me reword this. There is a rise in youth injuries in every sport. There are more and more opportunities for kids to play more and more often which increases injury. Not just HS players but grade school age. 

Done.

It's a logic problem. You're supporting your statement that youth sports injuries are up with "facts" that aren't facts at all. The word of your son's ortho that he sees more patients or the notion that you perceive more reports of injuries from participation on an internet message board (do they even call them that anymore?) doesn't make for a fact that ends the discussion. You act like you just made an irrefutable argument that is followed by a mic drop.

Roothog,

I agree with your logic 100%.  What are your thoughts on why it is not received well by others?  

CaCO3Girl posted:

Root, I hate to go all scientific on you BUT....the numbers support TPM's assertion that there has been an increase.  HOWEVER, I will agree that the numbers say nothing about WHY it happens, just that the numbers have increased. 

If you go back and look at the amount of children playing travel ball 20 years ago or even 10 years ago there are WAY more kids now playing.  There are way more articles about the death of rec ball, and WAY more articles about how travel ball has become a watered down daddy ball mess of a sport.

For arguments sake let's say there were exactly 2,000 kids playing Travel baseball 10 years ago.  Let's say only 1% ever had arm issues, that is 20 kids.  Let's say today that 5,000 kids play Travel Baseball, that 1% comes out to 50 kids. The percentage of injuries may not have increased, but the actual number of injuries has increased.

CaCO3,

You'll have to tell me what numbers you're talking about. Can you cite some numbers? Remember, the whole point of my argument is that increases in surgery rates or an increase in the number of patients a surgeon sees cannot be used to logically support an increase in injury rates.

Plus, your above argument implies that the only injuries that have occurred in the past came strictly out of travel ball. Can you support that argument? Can you verify that there are more kids playing baseball period? The problem is - and I hope you can see this - that your calculation above relies on the conclusion of the argument. It depends on it being a fact that travel ball causes injuries and other ball (rec, American Legion, etc.) does not. Unless this is true, an increase in the number of "travel" players without some showing of an increase in all baseball players, does not support the calculation. Are you implying that there are more kids playing baseball than there were 20 years ago? Maybe that is true and, if so, would be verifiable.

Regardless, my argument is based on injury rates, not total injuries. I am also assuming that TPM by saying injuries are on the rise meant rates as well and not total injuries.

To be clear, though, I'm not advocating that there isn't a problem. My contention is simply that the problem isn't a new one and by assuming that it is, we are possibly wasting time looking in the wrong places for answers. I think ASMI, for example, falls into this trap sometimes. I think Cressey may have done the same. However, when you look at the work guys like Boddy, Wolforth, and Sullivan are doing you can see that they aren't working from this premise. They aren't looking to any unverified increase in injury rates. they are looking at ways to better arm care period. They are searching for arm care solutions without the burden of an assumption that may or may not even be true. Notice here I admit that it's possible arm injuries are on the rise, but it isn't provable and, no, scientifically, there are no numbers to support that argument.

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

real green posted:

Roothog,

I agree with your logic 100%.  What are your thoughts on why it is not received well by others?  

 

I'm not sure. I think mainly it's just that very credible people like Andrews make the same mistake and view things only from their own personal perspective. When Andrews started seeing more young patients I just don't think it occurred to him that the baseball scene has changed and that those who never would have even thought about scheduling an appointment with him now do. I think that fact alone is a good sign that we treat arm care far more seriously than in the past. This may also be a product of the travel ball/showcase era. Now, unlike in the past, parents see a reason to fix a bum arm.  IN the past, they may have said, "so your arm hurts and you can't pitch anymore, kid? That sucks. Put some ice on it. You'll live."

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may change your opinion.

roothog66 posted:

real green posted:

Roothog,

I agree with your logic 100%.  What are your thoughts on why it is not received well by others?  

 

 Now, unlike in the past, parents see a reason to fix a bum arm.  IN the past, they may have said, "so your arm hurts and you can't pitch anymore, kid? That sucks. Put some ice on it. You'll live."

I agree with statement 100%.  I knew of no one who ever went to the Dr. through the mid 90's due to a sore elbow.  The higher you went the less chance you would even say anything to the staff due to the fact it would land you on the bench.  Further more, I knew of MANY players with sore elbows from LL through Junior College.  Ice and advil to get through the season.  

I love the scene from the original movie, "The Bad News Bears."  When the stud (girl) pitcher couldn't get through a big game because her elbow hurt.  That movie was made in 1976!  This isn't new....

Today that girl is rushed off to the sport specific ortho.  Spends thousands of $'s on medical expenses.  Add some PT. 

Root, 

I live in a place where every sport is played 365 days year round. My daughters BF sons football team has started football practice before football practice begins this summer.

I stand by my position.

I remember throwing games in high school when I couldn't even feel my arm. Now, I take my kid to a chiropractor before every start and constantly ask for updates on any pain he's feeling. Heck, when I threw the only question was "can you go in the next game?" You were expected to pitch in pain or at least go out there and try. Nobody cared if my arm hurt unless it actually stopped me from throwing. We didn't have Boddy. We had Coach Bullwinkle: "Take a salt tablet (because that was the cure for everything) and get your @$$ out there! It don't hurt that much, ya crybaby!"

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may change your opinion.

I have looked into all 3 you reference & I can tell you what my opinion is. Again, this is simply my opinion. The best thing you can do with a weighted baseball is to bring it close by to a wooded area, turn towards the wooded area & throw it as far into the wooded area as you can & then leave it there. Throwing a weighted baseball can result in a measurable increase in velocity in a youth level player because they are a YOUTH LEVEL PLAYER. I could measure the same increase if I fed them Captain Crunch & wanted to correlate that to velocity because a 15 year old went from 75 to 80 in a year . As far as injury prevention, perhaps possible if the ball is not released from the hand (Tom House) but I feel the risk of injury by incorrect use far outweighs the possible benefit.

Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action. 

TPM posted:

Root, 

I live in a place where every sport is played 365 days year round. My daughters BF sons football team has started football practice before football practice begins this summer.

I stand by my position.

If your point is that they shouldn't play year 'round, we don't have a disagreement. If your point is that we need to get better at arm care, I also agree. My only contention with you is in the details of the premise that we often start the issue with. Really, a small thing compared to the big picture.

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Steve A, welcome to the site.  You have pointed out some areas of concern (ok, "flat out wrong").  I am genuinely curious as to what you think would be considered the staples of a good program for young players, say 12-17, to be working to gain arm (and related) health, velocity, strength, etc.

roothog66 posted:

I remember throwing games in high school when I couldn't even feel my arm. Now, I take my kid to a chiropractor before every start and constantly ask for updates on any pain he's feeling. Heck, when I threw the only question was "can you go in the next game?" You were expected to pitch in pain or at least go out there and try. Nobody cared if my arm hurt unless it actually stopped me from throwing. We didn't have Boddy. We had Coach Bullwinkle: "Take a salt tablet (because that was the cure for everything) and get your @$$ out there! It don't hurt that much, ya crybaby!"

I think we had the same coach, where did you play?  Wait just kidding, that is how every coach I knew handled it!!  

Steve A. posted:

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may

Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action. 

Respectfully, I think you completely miss benefit of weighted balls if you think it's based on strengthening the arm for velocity. What weighted balls do is strengthen the muscles that support the ucl, which doesn't make you throw harder - because you're correct about where velocity comes from - but, rather, allows the arm to handle throwing at higher velocities. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference. Further, most velocity gains verified are within programs lasting from 8-11 weeks. Velocity gains over that short a period of time cannot be attributed to youth growth.

This has been an excellent thread to demonstrate just how many different theories and views that exist about arm injuries in baseball and what can explain them.  Obviously the times have changed significantly when it comes to youth baseball and the road toward trying to play in college or the pros.  Would the old legends like Ryan and Drysdale have held up like they did had they been brought up in this era?

Many of us with sons on that road are trying to give them the best opportunities to make it there, and these days, it seems harder than ever to get there.  From the rising number of MLB pitchers throwing in mid 90's to the elite college programs with pitchers doing likewise, it is no wonder why so many parents and kids are focused on pitching velocity as the ticket to the next level.  Truly it is sad in those cases where kids overdid it and ruined their arms before they even got the chance to play college baseball.  The hardest thrower on my sons' 12U team cannot even throw anymore as a 16 year old after labrum surgery.  But I blame his parents for moving him to a 13U/14U travel team and coach focused on winning tourney trophies at any cost.

Maybe someday one of these "experts" will figure out what the answer is, but for now, it is up to us parents to make sure (1) our sons are playing on travel teams with coaches who place the priority on player development and safety over winning, (2) we limit how much of the year our sons are playing baseball to allow for some shutdown time and arm rest, and (3) we accept that not all of our sons may have the arm and capacity to pitch at an elite level and focus instead on getting them into the right school and situation where they can succeed in college.

1. Every pitcher has experienced a sore elbow from his first season ever, even in t-ball.  Why T-ball/6u is played with the same size and weight ball as the major leagues, I don't know.  In fact, of the two dozen different official baseballs out there, the official MLB one "feels" the lightest.  

2.  Showcases with public radar readings could contribute to the issue.  When our team got our first radar gun, we all were curious to see how hard we could throw.  It wasn't before long that there was a competition to see who could throw harder than who.  Even I, the slowest cruising at 74-77 was competing against myself to get to 80 and get there I did, up to 82 even before I felt/heard a "pop" in my elbow.  I shut it down, switched to 2B, LF, 3B, anywhere but the 1 spot.  

3. Overuse can sometimes be good to build strength, but it seems to mostly be a bad thing.  Our pitcher last season his coach used him for every batting practice and pitched every inning of every game.  He didn't pitch THAT much, but throwing 5 days a week probably wasn't a good thing for him.  His elbow popped and now he can "crack" his elbow by rotating his forearm.  

Personally I think max effort overhand throwing is going to cause problems for anyone.  Jose Canseco had been pitching here and there all season with their PC, even pitched in the minors and had a 95mph fb, but when they called him in for a ML game, he threw nothing but 70mph junk.  Turns out he had already destroyed his elbow in the bullpen warming up. 

cabbagedad posted:

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Steve A, welcome to the site.  You have pointed out some areas of concern (ok, "flat out wrong").  I am genuinely curious as to what you think would be considered the staples of a good program for young players, say 12-17, to be working to gain arm (and related) health, velocity, strength, etc.

Hi Cabbage,

First off, I do not claim to be a guru or an expert. I can tell you that I am a student of this subject & have learned more about proper mechanics & conditioning since I hung up my spikes 20 years ago than I ever knew previously. My motivation is a love of the game & a concern for arm health starting with my sons participation in the travel ball scene.

12-17 is a broad range depending on when puberty hits. Let's just say there should be some absolutes pre puberty. Weights, extreme long toss & such things I would hold off on completely. It all starts with proper mechanics & we could go on forever there but alignment, removing the ball from the glove too early (major fault), momentum & arm action need to be ironed out (among other issues) prior to velocity concerns. If these issues are not addressed, increased velocity will only pour gas on the fire.

Let's assume all is well with mechanics for the most part. Pre puberty the focus should be on explosive & dynamic full body coordinated actions. A trampoline is a great tool here. Take your young guy & have him jump up & down & toss him a football mid air for catches. I used to roll the football up on my roof & let it tumble down off & see if he could react & catch it. Make it fun. Get a low adjustable basketball goal & bring it down & have him dunk it both left & right handed on the run. 4LB Medicine ball chest pass from about 6' back & fourth is fine as well.

After Puberty we obviously can ramp things up here. My feeling is that the key to velocity is a full body explosive lunge with direction & purpose to the plate. The arm is simply the end of the whip & along for the ride. Box jumps, dunks as above, lunges, sprints, various medicine ball (2 HANDS AT ALL TIMES) rotational throws, slams, launches, core strengthening actions. I have mine switch hit & he takes a good bit of BP both ways for symmetry.

As far as throwing. I see no need or use for this extreme long toss that seems to be the rage. Why? When would you ever incorporate that into the game. Do tennis players crank tennis balls to see how far they can hit it to get velocity on their serve? Do NBA players practice half court shots to increase their Jumper range (OK, maybe Curry...)? If you want velocity from the mound the single most effective way is to get on the mound, with proper mechanics  & air it out on a rational workload basis. I could go on & on. I just enjoy the conversation, thanks>

Steve, thanks for your input to the subject and board overall.  There are quite a few experienced posters on here, as you are chatting with them now.  There are MANY more that just read, and these are the ones with pre-high school kids.  You have a big audience reading your posts.

Thanks again for posting your insights.

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may

Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action. 

Respectfully, I think you completely miss benefit of weighted balls if you think it's based on strengthening the arm for velocity. What weighted balls do is strengthen the muscles that support the ucl, which doesn't make you throw harder - because you're correct about where velocity comes from - but, rather, allows the arm to handle throwing at higher velocities. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference. Further, most velocity gains verified are within programs lasting from 8-11 weeks. Velocity gains over that short a period of time cannot be attributed to youth growth.

Enjoying the conversation. I just want to make sure I understand your point. You are saying that the purpose of throwing a weighted baseball is to "strengthen muscle" in the arm that supports the ucl, therefore laying the framework to support the load of increased velocity gained from the other activities of the 8-11 week program? Correct?

So if throwing a weighted baseball accomplished this you would assume with all of the study, thesis & research associated with the multi billion dollar industry of MLB combined with the injury epidemic of UCL injury on an unprecedented scale, that a large percentage of MLB teams would incorporate a regimen of weighted baseball throwing at all levels, particularly rehab. Would they not? Care to guess why this is not the case? The answer is that while it is possible that your assertion is true to some extent, the danger FAR outweighs the possible benefit, especially at the youth level.

Root, I understand and agree with, to an extent, your arguments.  I will also throw out my small sample of experience and belief and not claim that it proves anything.

A few points of perspective...

My youngest had a wrist injury (not throwing related) that required surgery through the renowned Kerlan-Jobe Sports Med Orthopedic group so we spent more time there than I would have liked.  During that time, we spoke to several specialists and PT's that all worked primarily with sports athletes, youth thru pro.  They all were consistent with their belief that overuse at a young age and specialization at a young age are key contributors to a growing problem and that there was a direct correlation to the growth of year 'round club and travel ball (of course, along with the bad decisions coaches and parents were making while participating in these events that were contributing further to the problem).  Some also went into detail about the physiology of the body and the various stages of maturation.  They related some of the overuse issues specifically to younger ages and what the body can withstand at each of those various stages.  They are as much the experts as anyone, IMO.   Many in this group are active in trying to get awareness out to the baseball community that this is an issue.  They seem genuine in trying to use their position of expertise to alleviate the problem.  I don't know of any direct financial gain they could see by collaborating on this position as a group.

You made this comment... "When Andrews started seeing more young patients I just don't think it occurred to him that the baseball scene has changed and that those who never would have even thought about scheduling an appointment with him now do."  This one, I don't agree with.  I suppose it is possible that at one point, this wasn't factored in enough but as much research as he has done and as much as he is considered an expert in the field, I can't imagine that there is not sufficient awareness of this factor.  I do agree it absolutely is a factor.  I just don't agree that the sports doc experts don't account for it at all.

I have a nephew who has Spinal Muscular Atrophy.  Through his early-year struggles, we were immersed in learning about the workings of muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, etc. of young people and, again, the thing that sticks out as it relates to this conversation is how much the medical experts talked about various stages of development and how the young body, even when completely healthy, cannot handle some of the things a mature body can.

See my earlier post in this thread.  Our geographical area is relatively remote by California standards.  So, the club/travel scene is still in a growth mode here whereas it has matured quite a bit in the larger metro areas of Calif.  I have been part of the coaching scene as well as involved on a broader scope as site director for some of the national youth tournament organizations.  I have certainly seen a significant spike in specific arm issues.  Is there more participation?  Yup.  More awareness and likelihood to get any issues checked?  Yup.  But as that funnel narrows (i.e. - when I get the young players coming into the HS program), it becomes starkly evident that more 8th, 9th and 10th graders are coming in with arm issues already.  This wasn't nearly the case when I started working with HS age groups several years ago.  

Small sample still?  Yes.  Does it prove anything?  No.  Food for thought for your beliefs?   ??? 

Just as an aside. Dr. James Andrews recommends "at least 2 months, preferably 3-4 months of no overhead throwing per year," at the youth level. The majority of these velocity camps are held when??? Winter, indoor, off season, not good.  

Steve A. posted:

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may

Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action. 

Respectfully, I think you completely miss benefit of weighted balls if you think it's based on strengthening the arm for velocity. What weighted balls do is strengthen the muscles that support the ucl, which doesn't make you throw harder - because you're correct about where velocity comes from - but, rather, allows the arm to handle throwing at higher velocities. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference. Further, most velocity gains verified are within programs lasting from 8-11 weeks. Velocity gains over that short a period of time cannot be attributed to youth growth.

Enjoying the conversation. I just want to make sure I understand your point. You are saying that the purpose of throwing a weighted baseball is to "strengthen muscle" in the arm that supports the ucl, therefore laying the framework to support the load of increased velocity gained from the other activities of the 8-11 week program? Correct?

So if throwing a weighted baseball accomplished this you would assume with all of the study, thesis & research associated with the multi billion dollar industry of MLB combined with the injury epidemic of UCL injury on an unprecedented scale, that a large percentage of MLB teams would incorporate a regimen of weighted baseball throwing at all levels, particularly rehab. Would they not? Care to guess why this is not the case? The answer is that while it is possible that your assertion is true to some extent, the danger FAR outweighs the possible benefit, especially at the youth level.

 

Steve -- Interesting perspective. With respect to the bolded text, FWIW I remembered a post from Kyle Boddy from this past winter when he said with respect to weighted balls at his facility: "At last count we have 56 pros training using our stuff, 10 of whom have innings in the big leagues. And the entire Cleveland Indians pitching staff uses them at Goodyear and on the road."  http://community.hsbaseballweb...14#27200878163231214

Of course, many others could be using weighted balls outside of Kyle Boddy's program.

OTOH, do you know how Woolforth's and Boddy's clients do with respect to injury? Because if you're correct, their clients should be getting injured much more often than other pitchers, right?

Steve A. posted:

cabbagedad posted:

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Steve A, welcome to the site.  You have pointed out some areas of concern (ok, "flat out wrong").  I am genuinely curious as to what you think would be considered the staples of a good program for young players, say 12-17, to be working to gain arm (and related) health, velocity, strength, etc.

Hi Cabbage,

First off, I do not claim to be a guru or an expert. I can tell you that I am a student of this subject & have learned more about proper mechanics & conditioning since I hung up my spikes 20 years ago than I ever knew previously. My motivation is a love of the game & a concern for arm health starting with my sons participation in the travel ball scene.

12-17 is a broad range depending on when puberty hits. Let's just say there should be some absolutes pre puberty. Weights, extreme long toss & such things I would hold off on completely. It all starts with proper mechanics & we could go on forever there but alignment, removing the ball from the glove too early (major fault), momentum & arm action need to be ironed out (among other issues) prior to velocity concerns. If these issues are not addressed, increased velocity will only pour gas on the fire.

Let's assume all is well with mechanics for the most part. Pre puberty the focus should be on explosive & dynamic full body coordinated actions. A trampoline is a great tool here. Take your young guy & have him jump up & down & toss him a football mid air for catches. I used to roll the football up on my roof & let it tumble down off & see if he could react & catch it. Make it fun. Get a low adjustable basketball goal & bring it down & have him dunk it both left & right handed on the run. 4LB Medicine ball chest pass from about 6' back & fourth is fine as well.

After Puberty we obviously can ramp things up here. My feeling is that the key to velocity is a full body explosive lunge with direction & purpose to the plate. The arm is simply the end of the whip & along for the ride. Box jumps, dunks as above, lunges, sprints, various medicine ball (2 HANDS AT ALL TIMES) rotational throws, slams, launches, core strengthening actions. I have mine switch hit & he takes a good bit of BP both ways for symmetry.

As far as throwing. I see no need or use for this extreme long toss that seems to be the rage. Why? When would you ever incorporate that into the game. Do tennis players crank tennis balls to see how far they can hit it to get velocity on their serve? Do NBA players practice half court shots to increase their Jumper range (OK, maybe Curry...)? If you want velocity from the mound the single most effective way is to get on the mound, with proper mechanics  & air it out on a rational workload basis. I could go on & on. I just enjoy the conversation, thanks>

Thanks Steve A,

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that my own kids fell in that age range ( although I wish I could go another round   )... My youngest is still playing as a junior in college and I coach HS V and have done a little with summer college ball.  

I like to get various perspectives and keep up on the latest so I know I am offering solid direction to those I encounter.  Good stuff, thanks for posting.

BTW, just for reference, Root has some very talented and accomplished P sons as well.

cabbagedad posted:

Root, I understand and agree with, to an extent, your arguments.  I will also throw out my small sample of experience and belief and not claim that it proves anything.

A few points of perspective...

My youngest had a wrist injury (not throwing related) that required surgery through the renowned Kerlan-Jobe Sports Med Orthopedic group so we spent more time there than I would have liked.  During that time, we spoke to several specialists and PT's that all worked primarily with sports athletes, youth thru pro.  They all were consistent with their belief that overuse at a young age and specialization at a young age are key contributors to a growing problem and that there was a direct correlation to the growth of year 'round club and travel ball (of course, along with the bad decisions coaches and parents were making while participating in these events that were contributing further to the problem).  Some also went into detail about the physiology of the body and the various stages of maturation.  They related some of the overuse issues specifically to younger ages and what the body can withstand at each of those various stages.  They are as much the experts as anyone, IMO.   Many in this group are active in trying to get awareness out to the baseball community that this is an issue.  They seem genuine in trying to use their position of expertise to alleviate the problem.  I don't know of any direct financial gain they could see by collaborating on this position as a group.

You made this comment... "When Andrews started seeing more young patients I just don't think it occurred to him that the baseball scene has changed and that those who never would have even thought about scheduling an appointment with him now do."  This one, I don't agree with.  I suppose it is possible that at one point, this wasn't factored in enough but as much research as he has done and as much as he is considered an expert in the field, I can't imagine that there is not sufficient awareness of this factor.  I do agree it absolutely is a factor.  I just don't agree that the sports doc experts don't account for it at all.

I have a nephew who has Spinal Muscular Atrophy.  Through his early-year struggles, we were immersed in learning about the workings of muscles, tendons, ligaments, bones, etc. of young people and, again, the thing that sticks out as it relates to this conversation is how much the medical experts talked about various stages of development and how the young body, even when completely healthy, cannot handle some of the things a mature body can.

See my earlier post in this thread.  Our geographical area is relatively remote by California standards.  So, the club/travel scene is still in a growth mode here whereas it has matured quite a bit in the larger metro areas of Calif.  I have been part of the coaching scene as well as involved on a broader scope as site director for some of the national youth tournament organizations.  I have certainly seen a significant spike in specific arm issues.  Is there more participation?  Yup.  More awareness and likelihood to get any issues checked?  Yup.  But as that funnel narrows (i.e. - when I get the young players coming into the HS program), it becomes starkly evident that more 8th, 9th and 10th graders are coming in with arm issues already.  This wasn't nearly the case when I started working with HS age groups several years ago.  

Small sample still?  Yes.  Does it prove anything?  No.  Food for thought for your beliefs?   ??? 

 

 

As to the sports docs not accounting for it all, the problem I have is still that the usual quote is that "I'm seeing kids at a younger and younger age and more of them." For the most part, that is the extent of any argument that injury rates are increasing. In fact, some never explicitly even make that argument, it's us that take that statement and expand it to mean more. Regardless, they are professionals who, otherwise, are just like the rest of us in that often they perceive their own personal experience as universal. It's a human trait we've all been victim to at one time or another. remember, they are experts on human anatomy and not necessarily trained to analyze the data for such purposes.

I do agree that year 'round travel would be a problem for those who actually partake in it. However, I don't believe it is as bad as feared. I think more kids (talking mainly pitchers) take time off than you think. While a team may operate for 12 months in Florida or California, it's quite common that many kids on a roster like that are playing other sports and don't play the whole year or at least don't pitch the whole year. So, the fact that it's possible to play 12 months/year is a problem for those who actually do it.

Your claim that you see more 8th, 9th, and 10th graders with arm issues. Jus keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that make it tough to put a universal tag on this to the extent that you can call it a epidemic, as some have. First, over how many years are you talking? A long enough time and a large enough sample to make it predictable? For example, I was sitting here today trying to even think of a single kid from our area during youth ball with an arm issue. I clicked off almost a hundred pitchers in my head and could come up with none. Now, I realize, that's probably a statistical anomaly, but if I were to let my personal experience lead the ay, I'd conclude that you people are crazy and there's no problem whatsoever. However, I know that isn't true.

I think some are getting the idea that I'm saying nothing is wrong and overuse isn't a problem. That's not at all what I'm trying to say. I'm saying overuse has been a problem as long as baseball has been around and I'm definitely of the opinion that something should - and I believe something is - being done about it.

There was a question earlier about how might a Nolan Ryan have made it in today's baseball climate. I think quite well. I think genetics is a MUCH larger factor than we consider. I think we ignore it for the obvious reason that it is perhaps the one thing we can't do anything about so it probably is best to ignore it when searching for arm care plans. The following IS COMPLETELY CONJECTURE. It is a thought experiment only.

I think in the past, genetics completely controlled who made it to the big leagues. Not that long ago, in youth ball, it was quite common to basically run the same pitcher out there game after game. Heck, I know I threw over 200 pitches a game more than once. It is my theory that by the time pitchers got to be about 17 or 18, they had been so used up that only those with genetically gifted and genetically durable ucl's and shoulder ligaments were left standing. Those without genetically durable materials had long since thrown themselves out of the game. So, the vast majority of pitchers who were still standing by that time were simply the strongest and genetically at the least risk for injury. Today, I think we actually do a much better job of limiting overuse on pitchers and many who may not be all that genetically protected against injury make it farther through their careers than they would have 40 years ago. In other words, the kid that would have been done pitching due to injury in 1975 at the age of 17 now is protected long enough to make it to 23 or 25 before he has problems. Even then, there's TJ surgery to extend his career. I think this is a very good thing. Guys like Nolan Ryan and Tom Sever probably could have pitched plenty as youths and played year 'round. They still would have made it to the majors and been durable. Genetics. Now, for the rest of the mortals, arm care becomes much, much more important.

June 14, 1974 - the Angels beat the Re Sox 4-3 in 15 innings. Nolan Ryan pitched 13 innings and threw a 235 pitches. Luis Tiant threw 187. We only know this because an Angels pitching coach did something no one else was doing at the time - he counted pitches. No one blinked an eye at such stats because no one even noticed.

2019Dad posted:

Steve A. posted:

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

There are some valid truths to most all sides of the comments here regarding the injury issue. My perspective is this: Minor league reliever for many years back in the 90's. Through all of my HS, College & Pro Ball years, I can recall very few elbow injuries at any level. My experience coming up was obviously pre-travel ball so this was not an issue.

I now have a 7th grader 13 yo who has come the travel ball route. I can tell you, with absolutely no doubt (in my mind anyway) that the mileage being put on these young arms is the #1 reason for the injury explosion at the youth, college & pro level.  I could go on for 3 pages about the insane usage of quality youth pitching I have witnessed through the travel ball experience. You have coaches & parents who have prioritized winning to the detriment of these young arms. Multiple team participation, multiple league participation, guest playing issues with no limitation on volume of throwing. Coaching with limited understanding or real concern of the issue. I have seen velocity camps with long toss of weighted balls, deceleration shoulder drills with lead 12lb weights, single arm medicine ball tosses & other such nonsense that should be flat out criminal.

A lack of understanding of sound mechanics, proper volume & intensity of throwing, rest & recovery & common sense are the core of these problems. There is also a fundamental lack of understanding as to where velocity really comes from. The efforts to attain it are therefore most often productive in the short term by adding strength (particularly at the youth level) at the expense of the long term health of the athlete. I just cringe when I see some of these activities being paid for by well intentioned parents. I also feel that the instructors are also well intentioned but simply flat out wrong on several of the components of these camps. In short, these factors are collectively creating a class of ticking time bombs with huge mileage on young bodies.    

Many of the techniques that you think "should be criminal" are actually verifiably decreasing injury risk. Not saying there aren't a lot of bad stuff out there, just you seem to be making judgments on techniques that have track records from guys like Boddy, Cressey, and Wolforth. Check into some of Boddy's work and you may

Throwing a baseball with velocity is not primarily an arm strength / resistance action. 

Respectfully, I think you completely miss benefit of weighted balls if you think it's based on strengthening the arm for velocity. What weighted balls do is strengthen the muscles that support the ucl, which doesn't make you throw harder - because you're correct about where velocity comes from - but, rather, allows the arm to handle throwing at higher velocities. It is a subtle, but distinct, difference. Further, most velocity gains verified are within programs lasting from 8-11 weeks. Velocity gains over that short a period of time cannot be attributed to youth growth.

Enjoying the conversation. I just want to make sure I understand your point. You are saying that the purpose of throwing a weighted baseball is to "strengthen muscle" in the arm that supports the ucl, therefore laying the framework to support the load of increased velocity gained from the other activities of the 8-11 week program? Correct?

So if throwing a weighted baseball accomplished this you would assume with all of the study, thesis & research associated with the multi billion dollar industry of MLB combined with the injury epidemic of UCL injury on an unprecedented scale, that a large percentage of MLB teams would incorporate a regimen of weighted baseball throwing at all levels, particularly rehab. Would they not? Care to guess why this is not the case? The answer is that while it is possible that your assertion is true to some extent, the danger FAR outweighs the possible benefit, especially at the youth level.

 

Steve -- Interesting perspective. With respect to the bolded text, FWIW I remembered a post from Kyle Boddy from this past winter when he said with respect to weighted balls at his facility: "At last count we have 56 pros training using our stuff, 10 of whom have innings in the big leagues. And the entire Cleveland Indians pitching staff uses them at Goodyear and on the road."  http://community.hsbaseballweb...14#27200878163231214

Of course, many others could be using weighted balls outside of Kyle Boddy's program.

OTOH, do you know how Woolforth's and Boddy's clients do with respect to injury? Because if you're correct, their clients should be getting injured much more often than other pitchers, right?

I did see a note about Kluber using them with the Indians. I really have no idea about the rate of injury for Woolforth or Boddy. I would not suspect that this information would be readily broadcast nor could you directly tie an injury to the weighted ball itself, even if it was. Clearly, there is a ton of speculation here (much from me!) on all sides of the injury issue & weighted ball issue. My main motive here was to offer my opinion that the throwing of weighted baseballs does not increase velocity (I think we agree here) & that it is certainly a major risk when employed with youth growth plates etc. I strongly feel that the offseason velocity camps with weighted baseball use are counterproductive to long term arm health. The hook is that they actually will increase velocity (generated from the other, non throwing activities) but at a vastly greater potential present & future injury risk due to the mileage put on the youth arm from extreme throwing. Have I done a study to back this up? No. But all of my experience, observation, research & common sense screams it.

Root, I don't know what area you specialize in with your practice but, whatever it is, don't you make it a point to know not only the letter of the law but the current surrounding environment as well as the history in that given area?   And if you are considered one of the best of the best, wouldn't you feel an even greater responsibility to stay fully abreast of all influences as they relate to your area of expertise?

I get that if you took the statement on it's own ("I'm seeing more and more kids at an early age"), it could be chalked up to one of the arguments such as "back in the day, we didn't get that checked", but the sports docs making these statements are not making them in a vacuum.  They are mostly making them in tandem with the message that there is a problem and the problem is tied to increasing overuse.

Steve A. posted:

Just as an aside. Dr. James Andrews recommends "at least 2 months, preferably 3-4 months of no overhead throwing per year," at the youth level. The majority of these velocity camps are held when??? Winter, indoor, off season, not good.  

I agree with that and really like 3 months. I would only add that I think the year long schedule gives more rather than less options for taking time off. However, yes, there are those who don't, but that's on them. I'll even admit I made the same mistake with my son this past off season. I had shut him down in October with the plan not to start him up until mid-late December. However, there was a local camp (actually a thinly disguised showcase during the dead period) where about 20 D1 schools were attending. Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but...

roothog66 posted:

Steve A. posted:

Just as an aside. Dr. James Andrews recommends "at least 2 months, preferably 3-4 months of no overhead throwing per year," at the youth level. The majority of these velocity camps are held when??? Winter, indoor, off season, not good.  

I agree with that and really like 3 months. I would only add that I think the year long schedule gives more rather than less options for taking time off. However, yes, there are those who don't, but that's on them. I'll even admit I made the same mistake with my son this past off season. I had shut him down in October with the plan not to start him up until mid-late December. However, there was a local camp (actually a thinly disguised showcase during the dead period) where about 20 D1 schools were attending. Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but...

Sounds like your boy is fortunate to have you to rely on. Clearly, you get it. Please keep me in the loop as things progress. My 13 yo is in the mix & these opportunities are already presenting themselves & you can feel the pull as a parent. Sometimes less is more I suppose & we need to remember that. Have really enjoyed this conversation.

roothog66 posted:

...Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but...

Well now, we are on the same page after all.... 

roothog66 posted:

Your claim that you see more 8th, 9th, and 10th graders with arm issues. Jus keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that make it tough to put a universal tag on this to the extent that you can call it a epidemic, as some have. First, over how many years are you talking? A long enough time and a large enough sample to make it predictable? For example, I was sitting here today trying to even think of a single kid from our area during youth ball with an arm issue. I clicked off almost a hundred pitchers in my head and could come up with none. Now, I realize, that's probably a statistical anomaly, but if I were to let my personal experience lead the ay, I'd conclude that you people are crazy and there's no problem whatsoever. However, I know that isn't true.

I think some are getting the idea that I'm saying nothing is wrong and overuse isn't a problem. That's not at all what I'm trying to say. I'm saying overuse has been a problem as long as baseball has been around and I'm definitely of the opinion that something should - and I believe something is - being done about it.

On the 2020 PM we are discussing this issue as well.  The consensus seems to be that at 11u-14u you don't get tears you get breaks because in younger players the ligaments are stronger than the bones/growth plates.  So instead of the tear, you get a fracture.  Multiple people have reported several pitchers are down on their teams due to "arm issues", several warnings from doctors about growth plates not being able to handle the speed that the kid is trying to throw and we have had reports of one 2020 having TJ and multiple 2019's and 2018's.

What's that saying.....just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

roothog66 posted:

Your claim that you see more 8th, 9th, and 10th graders with arm issues. Jus keep in mind that there are a lot of factors that make it tough to put a universal tag on this to the extent that you can call it a epidemic, as some have. First, over how many years are you talking? A long enough time and a large enough sample to make it predictable? For example, I was sitting here today trying to even think of a single kid from our area during youth ball with an arm issue. I clicked off almost a hundred pitchers in my head and could come up with none. Now, I realize, that's probably a statistical anomaly, but if I were to let my personal experience lead the ay, I'd conclude that you people are crazy and there's no problem whatsoever. However, I know that isn't true.

I think some are getting the idea that I'm saying nothing is wrong and overuse isn't a problem. That's not at all what I'm trying to say. I'm saying overuse has been a problem as long as baseball has been around and I'm definitely of the opinion that something should - and I believe something is - being done about it.

On the 2020 PM we are discussing this issue as well.  The consensus seems to be that at 11u-14u you don't get tears you get breaks because in younger players the ligaments are stronger than the bones/growth plates.  So instead of the tear, you get a fracture.  Multiple people have reported several pitchers are down on their teams due to "arm issues", several warnings from doctors about growth plates not being able to handle the speed that the kid is trying to throw and we have had reports of one 2020 having TJ and multiple 2019's and 2018's.

What's that saying.....just because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't happening. 

You really are misreading me. I have never said it isn't happening. I'm saying it's been happening for over 150 years and that we're just recently getting around to addressing it. My point is that young pitchers were being overused long, long before travel ball became a thing - probably more than even today. In Little League, I can remember pitching two complete games I a day and that wasn't abnormal at all. Many LL teams would go an entire season with one pitcher pitching 90% of the innings. High Schools often did the same. I was recently looking at the leader board at our high school. I keep having to remind my son there are records there he'll have no chance of breaking because of pitching limits. Our school record for wins is 13. That may not sound like much until you realize that guy (a long time major leaguer) picked up those 13 wins with an 18 game schedule and he was not a reliever. In high school, I once pitched a complete game in a 20-18 win and threw again two days later. No one thought anything of it. It wasn't even a remarkable feat. I have no idea how many pitches I threw, but it was a lot - a whole lot. That's my point. So, if you were reading my posts as advocating for the position that overuse isn't a problem, that wasn't the point at all. My argument centered more on what evidence can logically be used to prove a point and what can't. that's really all it was.

Note on the guy with the school record. His father was one of the leading figures objecting to the implementation of pitch counts in Colorado last year. He hated the idea. His contention was that his kid didn't even get warmed up until he had thrown 90 pitches. Now, his kid is probably one of the genetically gifted that I spoke of earlier. He threw 12 years in the Bigs with no arm problems. So, Dad's perception was probably tainted there by his own experiences with his own son.

justbaseball posted:

roothog66 posted:

...Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but...

Well now, we are on the same page after all.... 

That's it in a nutshell. 

TPM posted:

justbaseball posted:

roothog66 posted:

...Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but...

Well now, we are on the same page after all.... 

That's it in a nutshell. 

I'll even admit that TPM told me not to do it. The truth is, I can see how some get caught up in the need to be at everything. In that instance, he wasn't throwing any harder than he was in July when they last saw him. It screwed around with his off-season schedule. Like I said, I got caught up with it and I consider myself fairly well informed. This summer, he has been bombarded by requests and we've tried to narrow it down and not feel pressured. So, other than his summer team's tourney schedule there's PG Junior nationals, Area Code Tryouts (and Area Code Games if lucky enough). that's pretty much it. Jupiter being a big maybe. Nov, Dec, and Jan off-season. If the schools that are interested can't see him in those and a couple of PG tourneys, then we'll live with it.

roothog66 posted:

TPM posted:

justbaseball posted:

roothog66 posted:

...Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but...

Well now, we are on the same page after all.... 

That's it in a nutshell. 

I'll even admit that TPM told me not to do it. The truth is, I can see how some get caught up in the need to be at everything. In that instance, he wasn't throwing any harder than he was in July when they last saw him. It screwed around with his off-season schedule. Like I said, I got caught up with it and I consider myself fairly well informed. This summer, he has been bombarded by requests and we've tried to narrow it down and not feel pressured. So, other than his summer team's tourney schedule there's PG Junior nationals, Area Code Tryouts (and Area Code Games if lucky enough). that's pretty much it. Jupiter being a big maybe. Nov, Dec, and Jan off-season. If the schools that are interested can't see him in those and a couple of PG tourneys, then we'll live with it.

Root, can you expand on that last thought and list the dates (or just months) of those events?  We are close to having an invaluable post to note for others.

Well, June is crazy as he'll do the PG Nationals in Fort Meyers and then fly to Phoenix for the Underclass Area Code Tryouts. Other than that, he has one tournament the first week of June an one in Fayetteville, AR the last month. July will be two PG tourneys - the WWBA 17u and The 16u World Series. The team has nothing scheduled in August. That month has been saved for individual school camps. I am hopeful he won't need to go to one. He actually hopes to have decided by then. September has two local tournaments. If there is some need, we might do Jupiter in October. I've sort of come to the realization that if you can't get it done with that schedule, adding four more showcases in there isn't going to help. Then he can start gearing up for high school in early February with some off season work in between.  

Forgot one. Our state final four is the weekend of May 28. Hopefully, we'll be playing. If not, he's signed up for the PG Rocky Mountain Showcase. There's no money lost there, so it would be a good warm up for the Jr. Nationals.

roothog66 posted:

TPM posted:

justbaseball posted:

roothog66 posted:

...Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but...

Well now, we are on the same page after all.... 

That's it in a nutshell. 

I'll even admit that TPM told me not to do it. The truth is, I can see how some get caught up in the need to be at everything. In that instance, he wasn't throwing any harder than he was in July when they last saw him. It screwed around with his off-season schedule. Like I said, I got caught up with it and I consider myself fairly well informed. This summer, he has been bombarded by requests and we've tried to narrow it down and not feel pressured. So, other than his summer team's tourney schedule there's PG Junior nationals, Area Code Tryouts (and Area Code Games if lucky enough). that's pretty much it. Jupiter being a big maybe. Nov, Dec, and Jan off-season. If the schools that are interested can't see him in those and a couple of PG tourneys, then we'll live with it.

I guess I am not so stupid after all.

I think you are helping us bring up the point some of us are making. One does not need to do all this stuff. It becomes overwhelming. It can become too much for the pitcher. Hitters can showcase every weekend, they only get better with more at bats. Pitchers are using up the bullets, I know some don't believe that, I do. Stay as healthy as you can for as long as you can.

As far as CaCo last post, I agree. I am going to say that more than likely our southeast location turns out a lot of great players, but many injuries as well. Was it happening when my son was in HS, yes but to a much lessor degree than you hear about today. I don't know of any HS player son played with in his graduatino class who wanted to go to college who didn't make it because of injury.  That year there were lots of 90+ pitchers from here. Some were drafted and still playing mlb. All have had TJS or labrum issues. But guess what, they made it. 

That's the whole point isn't it?  And telling us you take your son to the chiropractor before he pitches even proves to me that in your mind you fear injury.  

If you were doing all the right things why would you?

TPM posted:

roothog66 posted:

TPM posted:

justbaseball posted:

roothog66 posted:

...Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but...

Well now, we are on the same page after all.... 

That's it in a nutshell. 

I'll even admit that TPM told me not to do it. The truth is, I can see how some get caught up in the need to be at everything. In that instance, he wasn't throwing any harder than he was in July when they last saw him. It screwed around with his off-season schedule. Like I said, I got caught up with it and I consider myself fairly well informed. This summer, he has been bombarded by requests and we've tried to narrow it down and not feel pressured. So, other than his summer team's tourney schedule there's PG Junior nationals, Area Code Tryouts (and Area Code Games if lucky enough). that's pretty much it. Jupiter being a big maybe. Nov, Dec, and Jan off-season. If the schools that are interested can't see him in those and a couple of PG tourneys, then we'll live with it.

I guess I am not so stupid after all.

I think you are helping us bring up the point some of us are making. One does not need to do all this stuff. It becomes overwhelming. It can become too much for the pitcher. Hitters can showcase every weekend, they only get better with more at bats. Pitchers are using up the bullets, I know some don't believe that, I do. Stay as healthy as you can for as long as you can.

As far as CaCo last post, I agree. I am going to say that more than likely our southeast location turns out a lot of great players, but many injuries as well. Was it happening when my son was in HS, yes but to a much lessor degree than you hear about today. I don't know of any HS player son played with in his graduatino class who wanted to go to college who didn't make it because of injury.  That year there were lots of 90+ pitchers from here. Some were drafted and still playing mlb. All have had TJS or labrum issues. But guess what, they made it. 

That's the whole point isn't it?  And telling us you take your son to the chiropractor before he pitches even proves to me that in your mind you fear injury.  

If you were doing all the right things why would you?

Wow. Not sure WTH that is supposed to mean. He has scoliosis and his hips get misaligned. He feels better and it keeps him pain-free.

You didn't say that, you didn't present all of the evidence counselor!

roothog66 posted:

Well, June is crazy as he'll do the PG Nationals in Fort Meyers and then fly to Phoenix for the Underclass Area Code Tryouts. Other than that, he has one tournament the first week of June an one in Fayetteville, AR the last month. July will be two PG tourneys - the WWBA 17u and The 16u World Series. The team has nothing scheduled in August. That month has been saved for individual school camps. I am hopeful he won't need to go to one. He actually hopes to have decided by then. September has two local tournaments. If there is some need, we might do Jupiter in October. I've sort of come to the realization that if you can't get it done with that schedule, adding four more showcases in there isn't going to help. Then he can start gearing up for high school in early February with some off season work in between.  

Forgot one. Our state final four is the weekend of May 28. Hopefully, we'll be playing. If not, he's signed up for the PG Rocky Mountain Showcase. There's no money lost there, so it would be a good warm up for the Jr. Nationals.

Thanks Root and best of luck to him with both the HS state chase and the recruiting trail!  Hope you don't mind, I'm going to take some of your timeframe combined with one of your previous posts to make a point to the younger crowd.

One story - I think relevant.

I had this kid at age 10 playing on our local all star team.  Nice kid, lots of natural 'tools' if you can say that about a 10-year old.  Smallish, but fast as lightning and he could hit and hit with some power.  Not a pitcher really, outfielder.  Could pitch some - decent arm.

About this time our older son was getting recruited for college, so the kid's dad (kind of a Silicon Valley geek - thats ok, maybe I am/was too?) got real interested in how this all unfolded with our older son.  Before I knew it, this dad had his kid running all over the place with lessons, tournament teams (plural), travel ball, rec ball...just about everything you could imagine, at the same time, all year.  Its somewhat typical of Silicon Valley folks to go 'all in' on something - I just think his dad was focused on, 'My son is good, I'm going to give him every chance I can and I know people get really good at things by doing them a lot.'

10 years old.

When the kid hits about 12, his son was nowhere to be found.  So I started poking around.  Turns out he was on mandatory 'shutdown' for about a 1/2 year from his pediatrician.  Why?  I will get this wrong (medically) but basically he was suffering from back and shoulder problems from too many repetitive body motions.  I can believe it, that kid was probably in the cage 360 days a year, not to mention all kinds of other training.

12 years old!

I had never even heard of a kid getting that kind of injury?!  12-freaking-years-old!!

He shoulda been playing soccer and basketball for parts of the year - which is pretty much what the doctor told him - but his dad was focused on getting his son to college baseball from age 10.

The kid eventually got back on the field, but his dad went right back to the 'do something every day of every week to get better' method, maybe even intensified it.  I actually felt sorry for the kid - his eyes looked a little absent to me - just executing like a machine.  By the time HS rolled around, the kid was on the team and started, but was barely noticeable.  I think he coulda been better in a different situation.

These are the types of overuse injuries that seem to be seen more often now.  Nope, don't have data to prove it.  But to me it seems clear what happened in this...that didn't have to happen.

Let your kids....be kids!!

justbaseball posted:

One story - I think relevant.

I had this kid at age 10 playing on our local all star team.  Nice kid, lots of natural 'tools' if you can say that about a 10-year old.  Smallish, but fast as lightning and he could hit and hit with some power.  Not a pitcher really, outfielder.  Could pitch some - decent arm.

About this time our older son was getting recruited for college, so the kid's dad (kind of a Silicon Valley geek - thats ok, maybe I am/was too?) got real interested in how this all unfolded with our older son.  Before I knew it, this dad had his kid running all over the place with lessons, tournament teams (plural), travel ball, rec ball...just about everything you could imagine, at the same time, all year.  Its somewhat typical of Silicon Valley folks to go 'all in' on something - I just think his dad was focused on, 'My son is good, I'm going to give him every chance I can and I know people get really good at things by doing them a lot.'

10 years old.

When the kid hits about 12, his son was nowhere to be found.  So I started poking around.  Turns out he was on mandatory 'shutdown' for about a 1/2 year from his pediatrician.  Why?  I will get this wrong (medically) but basically he was suffering from back and shoulder problems from too many repetitive body motions.  I can believe it, that kid was probably in the cage 360 days a year, not to mention all kinds of other training.

12 years old!

I had never even heard of a kid getting that kind of injury?!  12-freaking-years-old!!

He shoulda been playing soccer and basketball for parts of the year - which is pretty much what the doctor told him - but his dad was focused on getting his son to college baseball from age 10.

The kid eventually got back on the field, but his dad went right back to the 'do something every day of every week to get better' method, maybe even intensified it.  I actually felt sorry for the kid - his eyes looked a little absent to me - just executing like a machine.  By the time HS rolled around, the kid was on the team and started, but was barely noticeable.  I think he coulda been better in a different situation.

These are the types of overuse injuries that seem to be seen more often now.  Nope, don't have data to prove it.  But to me it seems clear what happened in this...that didn't have to happen.

Let your kids....be kids!!

TPM posted:

You didn't say that, you didn't present all of the evidence counselor!

Fair enough. But, yeah I'm worried about injury. I'll be worried no matter what I do.

CACO3GIRL, please share with your 2020 PM group!  Root's experience is so much a part of what many of us "ancients" have been trying to warn the next several recruiting classes about... 

Root has a very good player who is getting attention.  Below, he outlines some of his scheduling plans over what was/is likely the two key years of recruiting for his son....  

From Root...

"I'll even admit I made the same mistake with my son this past off season. I had shut him down in October with the plan not to start him up until mid-late December. However, there was a local camp (actually a thinly disguised showcase during the dead period) where about 20 D1 schools were attending. Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but..."

..and in another post...

"I'll even admit that TPM told me not to do it. The truth is, I can see how some get caught up in the need to be at everything. In that instance, he wasn't throwing any harder than he was in July when they last saw him. It screwed around with his off-season schedule. Like I said, I got caught up with it and I consider myself fairly well informed. This summer, he has been bombarded by requests and we've tried to narrow it down and not feel pressured. So, other than his summer team's tourney schedule there's PG Junior nationals, Area Code Tryouts (and Area Code Games if lucky enough). that's pretty much it. Jupiter being a big maybe. Nov, Dec, and Jan off-season. If the schools that are interested can't see him in those and a couple of PG tourneys, then we'll live with it."

Root is an intelligent guy with a background in the game, a level head and a solid plan for his son.  He scheduled the right events and proper rest time.  He describes what happens to almost every decent player/parent going through the process.  Even with smart, careful planning, there is always another event that seems like something the player should attend or someone is asking if he will be there or someone who wants to see him play in person.  So, a schedule that starts in Dec/Jan prepping for HS, and is scheduled to end in September or October is easily stretched even further due to that one key event in the middle of the break or "just two weeks further" than planned shut down. It's VERY EASY to get caught up in it.

And, for the majority who have players who aren't getting the desired attention, that pressure to attend becomes even greater.  "We thought/hoped we'd have found a school by now".  "He doesn't have an offer that he likes and now we're running out of time".   Another point - don't compound the issue in the years prior (7th - 10th grade) by allowing the player to attend everything under the sun for most of the year.  If he has the talent and really wants it, you'll want to save some of that fortitude (and health) for when it becomes more necessary.  I'm a big proponent of summer/travel ball and showcases.  But it really needs to be managed with conviction to protect the player.  Most of us, like Root and I, failed a test or three the first time through.  Most of us don't have a second time through.  

Excellent ! Make a plan! Keep it simple until the time comes when you need to do more than he should do but you know you have to.

Don't let anyone tell you that you HAVE to do this or do that. Stay true to your plan you have made with your son.

Don't forget about school!!!!

TPM posted:

I guess I am not so stupid after all.

I think you are helping us bring up the point some of us are making. One does not need to do all this stuff. It becomes overwhelming. It can become too much for the pitcher. Hitters can showcase every weekend, they only get better with more at bats. Pitchers are using up the bullets, I know some don't believe that, I do. Stay as healthy as you can for as long as you can.

As far as CaCo last post, I agree. I am going to say that more than likely our southeast location turns out a lot of great players, but many injuries as well. Was it happening when my son was in HS, yes but to a much lessor degree than you hear about today. I don't know of any HS player son played with in his graduatino class who wanted to go to college who didn't make it because of injury.  That year there were lots of 90+ pitchers from here. Some were drafted and still playing mlb. All have had TJS or labrum issues. But guess what, they made it. 

That's the whole point isn't it?  And telling us you take your son to the chiropractor before he pitches even proves to me that in your mind you fear injury.  

If you were doing all the right things why would you?

I would like to start a poll about to get a consensus.  

lionbaseball posted:

TPM posted:

I guess I am not so stupid after all.

I think you are helping us bring up the point some of us are making. One does not need to do all this stuff. It becomes overwhelming. It can become too much for the pitcher. Hitters can showcase every weekend, they only get better with more at bats. Pitchers are using up the bullets, I know some don't believe that, I do. Stay as healthy as you can for as long as you can.

As far as CaCo last post, I agree. I am going to say that more than likely our southeast location turns out a lot of great players, but many injuries as well. Was it happening when my son was in HS, yes but to a much lessor degree than you hear about today. I don't know of any HS player son played with in his graduatino class who wanted to go to college who didn't make it because of injury.  That year there were lots of 90+ pitchers from here. Some were drafted and still playing mlb. All have had TJS or labrum issues. But guess what, they made it. 

That's the whole point isn't it?  And telling us you take your son to the chiropractor before he pitches even proves to me that in your mind you fear injury.  

If you were doing all the right things why would you?

I would like to start a poll about to get a consensus.  

Why don't you do that..go ahead.

You are not funny, why don't you offer something of value to the discussion instead of baiting. 

roothog66 posted:

TPM posted:

You didn't say that, you didn't present all of the evidence counselor!

Fair enough. But, yeah I'm worried about injury. I'll be worried no matter what I do.

Unfortunetly, the more one knows the more one needs to be afraid!

cabbagedad posted:

CACO3GIRL, please share with your 2020 PM group!  Root's experience is so much a part of what many of us "ancients" have been trying to warn the next several recruiting classes about... 

Root has a very good player who is getting attention.  Below, he outlines some of his scheduling plans over what was/is likely the two key years of recruiting for his son....  

From Root...

"I'll even admit I made the same mistake with my son this past off season. I had shut him down in October with the plan not to start him up until mid-late December. However, there was a local camp (actually a thinly disguised showcase during the dead period) where about 20 D1 schools were attending. Three or four schools told my son they'd like to see him there and we geared up in late November for this. In hindsight, there was interest, but no more or less than he would have gotten from them without showing up to this thing. he did get interest from a few schools that came from this, but for the schools he was already offered by or interested in, they didn't see anything they hadn't already seen. I won't make the same mistake again. There has been no harm done, but..."

..and in another post...

"I'll even admit that TPM told me not to do it. The truth is, I can see how some get caught up in the need to be at everything. In that instance, he wasn't throwing any harder than he was in July when they last saw him. It screwed around with his off-season schedule. Like I said, I got caught up with it and I consider myself fairly well informed. This summer, he has been bombarded by requests and we've tried to narrow it down and not feel pressured. So, other than his summer team's tourney schedule there's PG Junior nationals, Area Code Tryouts (and Area Code Games if lucky enough). that's pretty much it. Jupiter being a big maybe. Nov, Dec, and Jan off-season. If the schools that are interested can't see him in those and a couple of PG tourneys, then we'll live with it."

 

Root is an intelligent guy with a background in the game, a level head and a solid plan for his son.  He scheduled the right events and proper rest time.  He describes what happens to almost every decent player/parent going through the process.  Even with smart, careful planning, there is always another event that seems like something the player should attend or someone is asking if he will be there or someone who wants to see him play in person.  So, a schedule that starts in Dec/Jan prepping for HS, and is scheduled to end in September or October is easily stretched even further due to that one key event in the middle of the break or "just two weeks further" than planned shut down. It's VERY EASY to get caught up in it.

And, for the majority who have players who aren't getting the desired attention, that pressure to attend becomes even greater.  "We thought/hoped we'd have found a school by now".  "He doesn't have an offer that he likes and now we're running out of time".   Another point - don't compound the issue in the years prior (7th - 10th grade) by allowing the player to attend everything under the sun for most of the year.  If he has the talent and really wants it, you'll want to save some of that fortitude (and health) for when it becomes more necessary.  I'm a big proponent of summer/travel ball and showcases.  But it really needs to be managed with conviction to protect the player.  Most of us, like Root and I, failed a test or three the first time through.  Most of us don't have a second time through.  

 

Thank you Cabbage Dad, we have been discussing this issue as well lately.  Several of our kids have been invited to this event and that event even in 8th grade.  Anyway, I have cut and pasted this into the 2020PM.

Another thought.  Many players in past generations blew out their arms and just stopped pitching or playing without ever getting medical treament.  Or nursed it to get through the season even though their arm was hanging.  They could do that in the past simply because there was a very specific season.  You played HS and Legion.  Whatever the timeline was you knew in X weeks that you would be done throwing for 6+ months.  Todays baseball does not offer that luxury.  

TPM posted:

roothog66 posted:

TPM posted:

You didn't say that, you didn't present all of the evidence counselor!

Fair enough. But, yeah I'm worried about injury. I'll be worried no matter what I do.

Unfortunetly, the more one knows the more one needs to be afraid!

This!!!

Just for contrast with the old days. I happened to hear a nice discussion on the radio the other day about the July 3, 1963 game between the Brewers and Giants at Candlestick Park.  It's known as the greatest pitcher's duel in history.  The game went 16 innings and ended when Willie Mays broke a scoreless tie with a walkoff home run.  25-year-old Juan Marichal and 42-year-old Warren Spahn both pitched complete games, with Spahn throwing 201 pitches, and Marichal 227.

More here:  http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_...uel-was-50-years-ago