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To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

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TPM posted:

To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

Being one of those 2020 parents I just googled the article.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

  The gist is that showcases that fall during a players "down time" is not a good idea because you can't be "on" all year long, it's unhealthy.

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

CaCO3Girl posted:
TPM posted:

To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

Being one of those 2020 parents I just googled the article.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

  The gist is that showcases that fall during a players "down time" is not a good idea because you can't be "on" all year long, it's unhealthy.

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

I read the article years ago and when it was posted today.

Here is the thing, I am not going to get into where a player gets discovered. Playing in tournaments is a lot different than off season showcases. I think many of us here have tried to get that point across.

Funny how we all see things differently, but as I always said, the folks of the younger set will realize how important this type of info will be someday when their player needs some major surgery..BEFORE HE RECEIVES A COMMITMENT.

This man trains ML players, I doubt we know more than him.

I also am curious why it was removed after the poster even admitted he understood.

Last edited by TPM

Cressey's article is another piece of information from an expert.  There's lots of information, and lots of experts. Although I think he crafted his own questions to make a point, the point is valid.  For showcases, buyer beware, informed and aware of the risks to your son health as he is trying to achieve his goals.  And aware of your pocketbook.

TPM posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
TPM posted:

To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

Being one of those 2020 parents I just googled the article.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

  The gist is that showcases that fall during a players "down time" is not a good idea because you can't be "on" all year long, it's unhealthy.

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

I read the article years ago and when it was posted today.

Here is the thing, I am not going to get into where a player gets discovered. Playing in tournaments is a lot different than off season showcases. I think many of us here have tried to get that point across.

Funny how we all see things differently, but as I always said, the folks of the younger set will realize how important this type of info will be someday when their player needs some major surgery..BEFORE HE RECEIVES A COMMITMENT.

This man trains ML players, I doubt we know more than him.

I also am curious why it was removed after the poster even admitted he understood.

It has also been discussed many times on this board that things have changed over the last 5 years.  This article is 6 years old.  I was wondering if showcases played a bigger part now in most people's recruiting path than they did 6 years ago.

Go44dad posted:

Cressey's article is another piece of information from an expert.  There's lots of information, and lots of experts. Although I think he crafted his own questions to make a point, the point is valid.  For showcases, buyer beware, informed and aware of the risks to your son health as he is trying to achieve his goals.  And aware of your pocketbook.

I think you get it!

CaCO3Girl posted:
TPM posted:
CaCO3Girl posted:
TPM posted:

To the person who removed this article after they posted, you are doing a great disservice to all of the parents of younger players (2019, 2020, 2021 etc.) who post here. These are the things you should be sharing. Older article but excellent.  Not sure why you removed it but if I could guess i would be close.

For anyone interested, the article is  "How to waste money on showcases and get injured". Maybe you could add this to the group pms that you share.  Its probably a lot more valuable than anything you hafe ever read.

Being one of those 2020 parents I just googled the article.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

  The gist is that showcases that fall during a players "down time" is not a good idea because you can't be "on" all year long, it's unhealthy.

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

I read the article years ago and when it was posted today.

Here is the thing, I am not going to get into where a player gets discovered. Playing in tournaments is a lot different than off season showcases. I think many of us here have tried to get that point across.

Funny how we all see things differently, but as I always said, the folks of the younger set will realize how important this type of info will be someday when their player needs some major surgery..BEFORE HE RECEIVES A COMMITMENT.

This man trains ML players, I doubt we know more than him.

I also am curious why it was removed after the poster even admitted he understood.

It has also been discussed many times on this board that things have changed over the last 5 years.  This article is 6 years old.  I was wondering if showcases played a bigger part now in most people's recruiting path than they did 6 years ago.

See Go44's reply. Read it, read it again. Save it.

I have not read the article but the two best things my son did, (6 years ago...ugh) was Scout ball and ending with the Az Fall Classic, and this was in the fall of his rising Sr year. He probably got on the academic schools lists from the Stanford Camp. Recruiting may be a bit earlier now, but my son was a late bloomer but I don't see how he could have missed these and be seen. We always shut down right after this, which would be in mid Oct and he would start to get ready for HS season right at the Christmas-New Years break. He also played basketball so he was training for HS basketball in the fall and the season kicked off when he shut down for baseball and it all worked out. 

CaCO3Girl posted:

I have a question.  Would this statement made in the article still be true?

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

I don't know about the 'one kid' comment, but I think its still true that the kid would have been discovered through HS and/or summer ball.

My oldest son and his wife just bought their first house.  Along the way, in a very hot real estate market in their price range, they made bids on other houses that they lost.  My sense is they were getting a little panicked about it all - and started rushing around bidding on nearly every/any house in their range.  I finally saw one of them and had to sit them down and talk about patience, because they were about to buy a POS - I had to convince them that they would find a house and one they liked but to stop racing to bid on every house on the map.

Similar principles apply here.  You can find the right school without racing to events all year long.  Winter camps at colleges (yes, our sons did some of those) are well known to be money makers.  Yes, you can be discovered there or at a winter showcase - but since our older son did a bit of this, it always concerned me - the ramping up, ramping down...all year long.  But I didn't act on it - I was impatient.  Its easy to do.

I think Eric Cressey has a VERY good point that is every bit as valid today as 6 years ago.  This guy knows what he's doing.  Perfect...always right?  Certainly not.  But knowing a bit about him today, I would listen to what he has to say.

Last edited by justbaseball
CaCO3Girl posted:

It has also been discussed many times on this board that things have changed over the last 5 years.  This article is 6 years old.  I was wondering if showcases played a bigger part now in most people's recruiting path than they did 6 years ago.

Yes, they seem to play a bigger role - but the main point of the article is about when to do it and when not to do it.  The points remain valid from an expert in physiology.  I don't see how to ignore that.

In other words, for most of the points made in the article, age of the article is irrelevant IMO.

One other thing - having gone through this.  I would advise parents of pitchers to manage (very closely) the bobbing back and forth during the summer between travel team and showcase events.  It is very easy to throw 5-7 innings of a championship game in a tournament on Tuesday and be on the mound for a showcase on Friday.  That is not typically enough rest for a pitcher.  Just think about this stuff - thats all.

justbaseball posted:

One other thing - having gone through this.  I would advise parents of pitchers to manage (very closely) the bobbing back and forth during the summer between travel team and showcase events.  It is very easy to throw 5-7 innings of a championship game in a tournament on Tuesday and be on the mound for a showcase on Friday.  That is not typically enough rest for a pitcher.  Just think about this stuff - thats all.

Interesting, I have seen something happening lately that I thought was odd, but maybe it is because of this.  Rather than committing to a summer team some of the hot shot pitchers are choosing to only be a pick up player now and then, a gun for hire of sorts. Do you think this is the reason?

I'm not 100% certain of what I'm about to share, so buyer beware, but it was told to me from our HS Pitching coach that part of the "Pitch Smart" guidelines will enact heavy (in thousands $$+)  fines against MLB clubs that watch any HS pitcher throw during the months of October through or to January.

If this is the case, it would obviously have a major impact on those fall/winter showcase/tournament events, most notably, Jupiter.

I'm not sure if the months he mentioned are accurate, or if this also applies to fielders/hitters, but it would certainly be difficult to watch any kind of live action scrimmage without pitchers.

I want to reiterate that I have searched for and found nothing to corroborate what he told me, so in my mind, this is hearsay at this point.  I'm sure Jerry would be well aware and can confirm or refute the validity of this info.

If it is true, then it would certainly be a meaningful move toward protecting arms, at least at the highest level, by putting some teeth in something that largely drives players to continue to perform during their "down" months.

Again, if this is incorrect, don't shoot the messenger, I've provided adequate disclaimer.  Not trying to be an alarmist or spread rumor, just seems timely given the subject 

CaCO3Girl posted:
justbaseball posted:

One other thing - having gone through this.  I would advise parents of pitchers to manage (very closely) the bobbing back and forth during the summer between travel team and showcase events.  It is very easy to throw 5-7 innings of a championship game in a tournament on Tuesday and be on the mound for a showcase on Friday.  That is not typically enough rest for a pitcher.  Just think about this stuff - thats all.

Interesting, I have seen something happening lately that I thought was odd, but maybe it is because of this.  Rather than committing to a summer team some of the hot shot pitchers are choosing to only be a pick up player now and then, a gun for hire of sorts. Do you think this is the reason?

My guess is that there are so many "private" invite events (PG National, workout at MLB sites, Tournament of Stars, Connie Mack, Area Code, East Coast Pro, etc), that overlap tournaments and conflict with the continuity of a real team, it just makes sense for some.

Shutting down scouting for MLB teams from October through January is absolutely useless if colleges don't follow suit and definitely is a hindrance to two-sport athletes who want to play a fall sport. Currently, running showcase in the winter allows athletes to use August through October or November as their "rest period," gear up earlier for the regular season rather than extend beyond it, and still have an opportunity to get the attention associated with fall baseball. Just because events are available 12 months a year doesn't mean players have to attend event all year. It isn't the responsibility of guys like Jerry Ford to make sure pitchers schedule rest. At some point, pitchers have to take the responsibility for properly determining their own schedule. In fact, all PG does is offer the flexibility that allows players to schedule their rest periods at times convenient for their own schedules instead of being forced to follow a pre-determined season over which they have no control.

I get Cressey's point about being careful about not overworking a kid so much that he gets hurt.  Common sense has to apply for most parents and their sons to know when their arms need a break.  Maybe that is in the Fall, or maybe that is in the months leading up to the High School season.  Or maybe it is a month on and month off for awhile.

But I do not buy his point about only one player being "discovered" at a showcase.  What is the definition of "discovered"?  If that means a kid good enough to one day play MLB, then that may be the case.  But there are thousands of kids out there with no aspirations to play professionally who want a chance to play in college and hopefully get some financial assistance.  And plenty of those kids will NEVER be seen playing a game for their high school, so how do they get "discovered" otherwise?. 

College baseball coaches have little to no chance to ever attend a high school baseball game--they conflict with their teams' seasons.  Most universities have little to no money in the budget to go travel and see a kid.  Some will rely on videos sent, but many want to see a kid play in the flesh, talk to them in person, etc.  Stanford's pitching coach told us that he had seen exactly one kid pitch for his high school team during the past five years.  And that is a high level D1 program--imagine what the lesser programs do to recruit players.

There seems to be a strong bias on this forum that showcases are a big money-maker for organizations like PG, Headfirst, etc. and the college coaches that work them.  That may be the case, but if they were not worth it, they would die off quickly.  How about the money saving benefits to parents and players?  If there are 10 schools/coaches out of 30-50 working a camp and the player gets a chance to meet the coaches and play in front of them, how much time and money is saved by going to the showcase versus visits to even half of those schools?  And how many would otherwise consider D2, D3, and NAIA schools without going to a showcase.  Of course, should a player wind up with an offer of financial aid toward college, that would more than offset the cost of attending showcases and become a money-maker for the player and parents.

Yes, it makes sense to start small with a showcase or camp to get a sense if your son even has a chance of playing college ball.  But don't be foolish and sit around and think your son is going to get noticed playing baseball if he takes much of the Summer and Fall off to rest.  Unless he is a major talent with obvious tools, he may never get noticed.

I'm a proponent of taking a long-term view of development, to the extent that I would propose that for HS sophomores/juniors and younger, taking the summer to commit to dedicated strength & conditioning is a better solution than playing from Feb through Oct/Nov.  They should still play in the summer, but what I am saying is that it's okay to show up to a game a little sore from a prior strength workout, because in the long-term is that one game going to matter?  Probably not.  Will the 4 months of dedicated S&C matter more?  Probably.  Can an adjustment be made for a HS Junior going to a major summer event?  Of course, but balance the long-term and short-term.

Sporting News had an article about this recently that spurred me to write an article on the Power Alley website in response that outlined my proposed yearly schedule for a HS or younger ball player:

"-Spring High School season – focus on performance on the field, utilize an in-season strength maintenance program;

-June through August – commit to a dedicated off-season strength and conditioning program as a primary objective, performance on the field during summer ball is secondary;

-Fall showcase/travel season – focus on performance on the field, utilize an in-season strength maintenance program;

-End of Fall season until Spring practice begins – commit to another dedicated period of strength and conditioning.

Additionally, particularly for pre-teen athletes, it would probably be best to pick up other sports as well.  Much has been written lately about the questionable benefits of early specialization in sports.  From our own experience, learning and playing a new sport improves the ability to pick up skills in the primary sport, improves overall athleticism, balances physical development, and improves kinesthetic awareness."

May align with some people's opinion, and be quite contrary to others.  But those are my thoughts and what I advise young players to do.

I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine.

Matt Reiland posted:

I'm a proponent of taking a long-term view of development, to the extent that I would propose that for HS sophomores/juniors and younger, taking the summer to commit to dedicated strength & conditioning is a better solution than playing from Feb through Oct/Nov.  They should still play in the summer, but what I am saying is that it's okay to show up to a game a little sore from a prior strength workout, because in the long-term is that one game going to matter?  Probably not.  Will the 4 months of dedicated S&C matter more?  Probably.  Can an adjustment be made for a HS Junior going to a major summer event?  Of course, but balance the long-term and short-term.

Sporting News had an article about this recently that spurred me to write an article on the Power Alley website in response that outlined my proposed yearly schedule for a HS or younger ball player:

"-Spring High School season – focus on performance on the field, utilize an in-season strength maintenance program;

-June through August – commit to a dedicated off-season strength and conditioning program as a primary objective, performance on the field during summer ball is secondary;

-Fall showcase/travel season – focus on performance on the field, utilize an in-season strength maintenance program;

-End of Fall season until Spring practice begins – commit to another dedicated period of strength and conditioning.

Additionally, particularly for pre-teen athletes, it would probably be best to pick up other sports as well.  Much has been written lately about the questionable benefits of early specialization in sports.  From our own experience, learning and playing a new sport improves the ability to pick up skills in the primary sport, improves overall athleticism, balances physical development, and improves kinesthetic awareness."

May align with some people's opinion, and be quite contrary to others.  But those are my thoughts and what I advise young players to do.

Thank you for your input. As a new member, be aware that this info has been a constant discussion in our forum.  Your information only confirms that.

College coaches certainly attend high school games, but usually only on Mondays and only locally. If you live in an area close to several schools (say somewhere like Houston) high school ball can certainly be relevant. However, it's very limited.

As to using the summer to develop physically and not caring about decreased performance, for some it may be the opposite. It may make more sense to take that attitude with the high school season. That, however, would have its own problems - especially with teammates. The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods.

roothog66 posted:

The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods.

Agree.  I used the example of June - August, but that can obviously shift around after looking at a calendar of events and prioritizing the important ones.

TPM posted:

Thank you for your input. As a new member, be aware that this info has been a constant discussion in our forum.  Your information only confirms that.

 I realize that nothing I posted is new or revolutionary, just providing food for discussion with an additional point of view.  It will probably continue to be a discussion until the end of time.

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

Backstop22 posted:

"I was up at sons school for a few weeks. On Mondays the HC and assistant coaches took off to HS games. At any given time the recruiter was off somewhere watching a player. So the theory that they don't have time in season is not necessarily the case for the big programs who drive the machine."

Interesting, at least what I can tell from the Southern California schedules, most of the leagues have their league games on Tuesday and then either Thursday/Friday.  I guess kids at those schools are at a disadvantage if the schools they are interested in watch the Monday games.  And of course that only applies to coaches at schools in the area.  If you have an interest in going to a university out of your region, then you either need to travel a lot of go to an area showcase where there are coaches from all over the country.

I think it's monday and thursday. NCAA does not allow monday games when school is in session. So that makes sense. 

I know when coaches travel they will go see recruits they may have heard about. The life of a recruiter is pretty intetesting.

Justbaseball,

Why would you hope it is true?  Exactly what difference would it make that could possibly be considered positive? Less TJ surgeries?  Do you really believe that?  The amount of pitching abuse at that event is nothing compared to what really happens all over the place.

The Jupiter tournament in late October is the biggest scouting attraction in baseball. MLB organizations spend a small fortune covering it, many send their entire scouting department.  Pretty much every high level college program is also there.  The number of young players that have benefitted greatly is well documented. And I'm not talking about just the superstars.

Over 11,000 went on o play college baseball.  Over 3,700 became draft picks.  Many that were FIRST discovered at this event. And if we want to talk about why it is such a scouting attraction, how about this... 510 and still counting have played in the Major Leagues.  340 were selected in the first round.  These include Cy Young winners, MVPs, Rookie of the years, and a very large number of All Stars.  Yes, the brightest stars in the game.  And all those numbers grow much bigger each year. You can watch any MLB game or high level college game and you will see a bunch of players that played in that event when they were in HS.  So many made their name, right there on those Jupiter fields in October.

Whether it is college or professional baseball, so many young players, MLB organizations and college programs have benefitted greatly from that single event.  And it is all well documented for anyone that cares to do the research.

And you hope it ends?  I am totally confused.  Maybe it gets back to the injury thing.  Knock on wood, has anyone noticed TJ surgeries are down.  Anyone with some searching skills can find the list of every draft pick, MLB player, etc., from that event.  We know most of the pitchers from that event that later had TJ surgery.  Truth is the percentage of TJ surgeries of those that never attended that event are higher.  But people keep reading and believing what ever gets printed. Evidently real documentation and the truth doesn't count. But everyone is in such a hurry to have all the answers, they skip over a lot of facts.  We could ask everyone who has had TJ surgery if they played in that event.  Surely some would say yes!   So was it because of that event? What about all the others?  It is extremely rare to see a pitcher being over used at that event. And there are many pitchers shut down and don't attend that event. Some are playing football. Some shut down before, some shut down after.  Those are all individual choices. Is the right thing to do to take away individual choices?  When did anyone make October a bad baseball month.

Could anyone with some common sense, actually believe that no one is ever first discovered at events like this?  Maybe they should ask Mike Trout! or Carlos Correa! or Andrew Miller! or Carl Crawford! or Jeff Locke! Or hundreds of others that have moved on to the next level.

Major League Baseball is a powerful organization.  They can do what they want.  We have built a great relationship with MLB and we are very close to most scouting departments.  So far, we haven't heard of anything like what you are hoping for.

Also, we were one of the very first to join the PitchSmart initiative. We have all the guidelines and have been using them.  We are working closely with MLB and USAB on this.  Actually we have even added a few of our own rules to make it even safer.  We are also going to adjust some of the things we have done in the past.

I did hear about someone with one of the big baseball publications at last year's Area Codes trying to talk officials and MLB scouts into boycotting Jupiter.  Sounds like he became friendless in a hurry.  There are so many agendas and motives out there that are more business related than they are baseball related.  Our goal has always been to grow the game!  You don't grow the game by taking away, the games best amateur events.

I'm an old American Legion member that was very involved in Legion Baseball.  It was absolutely the best thing back then.  I know some think we are partially responsible for Legion Baseball losing interest.  But some would say we are ruining the game.  Our goal is to grow the game!  When Legion Baseball was at its peak, that is where most of the talent went.  Back then club ball or travel ball didn't amount to much.  Legion picked the best players and most everyone else had nowhere to play.  Compare that to now... All the best players still get together, but there is opportunity for so many others because of the amount of available teams. I understand the money part, but there are so many teams that don't cost much money. So the real truth is... There a more opportunities to play organized baseball today, than there ever was years ago.  

Next step, which we think about all the time.  How do we grow the game among those that don't have the necessary resources. And we are making big strides in that area.  In fact, some of these things will become clear this year.  This new commissioner is going to be really good for growing the game of baseball. And we want to do everything possible to help.

 

 

It's also important to note what field a person's expertise is in and not let the fact that an individual is an expert on one subject influence your analysis of his opinion on another area in which he is not an expert. It doesn't mean his opinion in the second field is worthless, just that it shouldn't be given extra weight due to expertise in another area.

I was the OP . and I said it was from 2010 , I agree with some of the things said , but the exposure has evolved in the last 6 plus years, the one thing I don't like about showcases and  I cant speak for all of them only the ones ive been to, and also   for PG events i haven't been to one yet,

Is the lack of warm up time, especially the arms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the worst I've ever seen it, kind looks like rec ball pre game, thats why my kid warms up before , so there no injures when he's trying to blow up the radars.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

Last edited by c2019
c2019 posted:

I was the OP . and I said it was from 2010 , I agree with some of the things said , but the exposure has evolved in the last 6 plus years, the one thing I don't like about showcases and  I cant speak for all of them only the ones ive been to, and also   for PG events i haven't been to one yet,

Is the lack of warm up time, especially the arms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the worst I've ever seen it, kind looks like rec ball pre game, thats why my kid warms up before , so there no injures when he's trying to blow up the radars.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

I think you bring up a valid point. While there are  top tournaments  and showcases done right, there are others that arent. That was why I felt that the article, although written a few years back, had merit. 

As a parent be smart, choose and spend wisely.

 

 

 

Last edited by TPM

PGStaff - I dunno - it was just a quick comment.  Probably shouldn't have made it without thinking about it more carefully.  I was not thinking specifically of Jupiter or any other specific event when I wrote it.

I think there is too much bait to attend and too much pressure on parents and players to play year-around and to begin it at a too, too young an age.  I don't think its in the best interest of kids or their parents' pocketbook...unless they're Mike Trout or someone like that.

I think it would take something like MLB or the NCAA to tamp that down.  Is that the right action?  I don't really know, which is why I probably shouldn't have made that comment.  But its the type of action that Nuke mentioned that would/could bring things back to more reasonable.  It won't happen because 1 or 2 or 15 parents see it as too much, too young, too often.  It would take a major player to change anything.

You are right - Jupiter is a great event.  But because of its timing, it does cause young pitchers to try and ramp back up into high performance mode at an odd/off-peak time of year.  It isn't the only one, but its a highly visible one.  It is not timed (at all) the way a pro pitcher's training is timed.  It is, however, somewhat in synch with a college pitcher's training.  But we both know that college baseball is often not the best example of good arm care.

Frankly, my guess is all of the players you listed would have been discovered whether or not they went to that or other Winter events...or none of them.  I'm not sure why listing them makes a difference in this discussion - other than confusing the topic.

I am not capable of saying specifically why pitchers' arms get hurt.  But like I have a lot of confidence in your view of what is a quality showcase, I have a lot of confidence in Eric Cressey's view on what is best physiologically for a pitcher.

Last edited by justbaseball

I follow Cressey as well, but statements like this:

"I can honestly say that in all my years of training baseball players, I’ve only seen one kid who was “discovered” at a showcase.  And, frankly, it occurred in December of his junior year, so those scouts surely would have found him during high school and summer ball; it wasn’t a desperate attempt to catch someone’s eye."

completely kill his credibility on this subject. Not only is this blatant BS preceded by a declaration of "honesty." It's either a complete lie/exaggeration that is so incredible a statement as to make me confident it can't be true or he's so out of touch that he believes it. I would think even the most pessimistic posters here wouldn't think that in all his years of training baseball players, he's only seen one kid "discovered" at a showcase. It's a dishonest statement and blows his credibility with me.

I agree, the statement doesn't make sense to me either.  But there are plenty of other experts that have one statement here or there that don't make sense to me either - but it doesn't diminish what they say on things they are indeed expert about.  On pitcher training and physiology, I (and many, many others) consider him an expert.  That part of the story is not diminished and should be considered when setting your son's pitching schedule.

Last edited by justbaseball
Matt Reiland posted:
roothog66 posted:

The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods.

Agree.  I used the example of June - August, but that can obviously shift around after looking at a calendar of events and prioritizing the important ones.

Well, this has been an interesting thread to read.  Seems like many "between the lines" and "behind the scenes" discussions and points being made.  

I'll throw in some of my observations, which include things happening in today's environment.

Son's D2 HC or RC alternately head off to to watch JC and HS players and recruit them during the current HS and college season on the D2's practice days and they are not limited to Mondays.  I was surprised to hear how often this happens.   

I agree with Root's statement... The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods. 

The problem is that, unlike Root, the parents and players usually only go through this process once.  Much of it is learn-as-you-go or learn-by-mistake.  There is a lot of pressure to get these good players seen and find the best match.  The window is often short (from the time they have the skill set to show something to the time the corresponding level of college typically recruits).  So, while the year-round opportunities do provide MORE flexibility, there is a pressure that is very hard to resist for the player/parent to participate in as many good opportunities that come up as possible.  So, they find themselves either abandoning the planned rest or never really planning to take it at all.  And, to pile on, they often have pushed the heavy schedule in years prior, also to try to give the player a leg up on competitive experience and determine where their potential ceiling is.  This can be valuable but almost always overdone.  Many players and parent feed off the building demand of player.  Many can't say no to a respected coach.  Many fear any missed opportunity as "the one that could have been it".

In most cases, if that player/parent team could identify the right year and time of year to push the showcase/travel/exposure scene and stick to a schedule that was healthy (along the lines of what Matt Rieland laid out), they would figure out where they belong, or at least what level to target, and the process would become more manageable.  I know, much easier said than done.

I have seen this cycle repeat itself with each crop of ambitious HS players/parents we get over the last several years.  As much as we advise to plan carefully and not overdo it, the intense "want the best opportunities for my kid" mentality, the fear of falling behind, the "things are different now", the scramble of the process and the panic of "not signed yet" usually get the best of them.  Heck, even with the rare ones that sign early, they still overdo it in hopes of a shot at the draft. 

As soon as I see someone defend the ambitious travel/showcase schedule and dismiss experienced advice as outdated, misinformed or "you don't know MY kid", I know they are in the heat of the battle.

So, what are some of the possible repercussions?   

This year, I have the youngest V team I have ever had, by a lot.  Several are promising players who certainly have a shot at playing at the next level.  They love the game but most are caught up in what I have described.  They are all scrambling to latch on to the next club team for the next season and don't want to miss out on anything their teammates may be getting.  Between last year and this year, I have seven or eight freshman/sophomore players who have already had arm issues.  Most are not even pitchers (or, at least, they won't be now anyway).  Lots of labrums.  Bad tear - missed a year, still having a tough time figuring out how to throw again.  Mild tear, inflammation, bicep tendon, rotator cuff, etc.  Most had no issues during HS season but by November, problems popped up.  Two missed entire freshman season before they were able to step on the HS field.  Two started to show issues during my season.  I shut them down and required proper assessment and PT plan before letting them back.  Part of a parent's initial reaction was mad at me.  They wanted them to keep playing.  I honestly believe we saved those two from the more serious damage that others experienced.   We had one senior who is a highly decorated D1 bound P.  I fear for his future because, even after he committed, they kept pushing hard on the summer/fall/winter tour, largely with the draft in mind.  He was clearly fatigued on a televised event and I don't think has yet fully recovered.  I really love the kid and the family but my advice in that regard went largely ignored.

On the other side of the coin are young players who are more than capable of enjoying and contributing at the HS level but are discouraged and quitting because they are unable, for a variety of reasons, to "keep up with the Jones's" with all the travel, showcase, instruction, etc. that the others are doing.   Then I have another who's parents pulled him from the program because he was initially assigned to get playing time at the JV level and that was beneath their son since they had put so much into travel ball to assure his success in HS and beyond. 

Please, people.

Last edited by cabbagedad

I Agree with the overuse and misuse of these showcases, our top HS pitcher who is a JR just committed to a Top school who are in the top 15 in the nation ,this kid throws 90 without effort , and  you hear the seems every time it hits my sons glove, just lets say he broke in my sons catcher mitt.  well he pulled his groing in the 1st week of the season, were are in IL its cold, he got better so he pitched a Awesome  game vs another top D1 recruit ,PBR was there with there radars and he was pumping heat. he hasn't pitch since that day ,over a month ago ,he hurt himself, don't know if it was his world tour that he did, but luckily he committed before then . he did have a busy Fall/winter

c2019 posted:

I was the OP . and I said it was from 2010 , I agree with some of the things said , but the exposure has evolved in the last 6 plus years, the one thing I don't like about showcases and  I cant speak for all of them only the ones ive been to, and also   for PG events i haven't been to one yet,

Is the lack of warm up time, especially the arms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the worst I've ever seen it, kind looks like rec ball pre game, thats why my kid warms up before , so there no injures when he's trying to blow up the radars.

http://ericcressey.com/basebal...oney-and-get-injured

This would be a pretty big problem to me. Luckily, I haven't run across it yet.

I think that showcases are a good thing because they are a place of concentrated attention. I just think many do it too early, don't have proper rest periods and do too many of them.

wait until you have something to showcase. It is nice to show off that you throw hard for a freshman but you just as well can wait until you can throw really hard.

cabbagedad posted:

Well, this has been an interesting thread to read.  Seems like many "between the lines" and "behind the scenes" discussions and points being made.  

I'll throw in some of my observations, which include things happening in today's environment.

Son's D2 HC or RC alternately head off to to watch JC and HS players and recruit them during the current HS and college season on the D2's practice days and they are not limited to Mondays.  I was surprised to hear how often this happens.   

I agree with Root's statement... The truth is that the vast majority of serious recruiting is done from mid-June to November. With year-round showcase opportunities, this gives more rather than less flexibility to build in rest periods. 

The problem is that, unlike Root, the parents and players usually only go through this process once.  Much of it is learn-as-you-go or learn-by-mistake.  There is a lot of pressure to get these good players seen and find the best match.  The window is often short (from the time they have the skill set to show something to the time the corresponding level of college typically recruits).  So, while the year-round opportunities do provide MORE flexibility, there is a pressure that is very hard to resist for the player/parent to participate in as many good opportunities that come up as possible.  So, they find themselves either abandoning the planned rest or never really planning to take it at all.  And, to pile on, they often have pushed the heavy schedule in years prior, also to try to give the player a leg up on competitive experience and determine where their potential ceiling is.  This can be valuable but almost always overdone.  Many players and parent feed off the building demand of player.  Many can't say no to a respected coach.  Many fear any missed opportunity as "the one that could have been it".

In most cases, if that player/parent team could identify the right year and time of year to push the showcase/travel/exposure scene and stick to a schedule that was healthy (along the lines of what Matt Rieland laid out), they would figure out where they belong, or at least what level to target, and the process would become more manageable.  I know, much easier said than done.

I have seen this cycle repeat itself with each crop of ambitious HS players/parents we get over the last several years.  As much as we advise to plan carefully and not overdo it, the intense "want the best opportunities for my kid" mentality, the fear of falling behind, the "things are different now", the scramble of the process and the panic of "not signed yet" usually get the best of them.  Heck, even with the rare ones that sign early, they still overdo it in hopes of a shot at the draft. 

As soon as I see someone defend the ambitious travel/showcase schedule and dismiss experienced advice as outdated, misinformed or "you don't know MY kid", I know they are in the heat of the battle.

So, what are some of the possible repercussions?   

This year, I have the youngest V team I have ever had, by a lot.  Several are promising players who certainly have a shot at playing at the next level.  They love the game but most are caught up in what I have described.  They are all scrambling to latch on to the next club team for the next season and don't want to miss out on anything their teammates may be getting.  Between last year and this year, I have eight freshman/sophomore players who have already had arm issues.  Most are not even pitchers (or, at least, they won't be now anyway).  Lots of labrums.  Bad tear - missed a year, still having a tough time figuring out how to throw again.  Mild tear, inflammation, torn bicep tendon, rotator cuff, etc.  Most had no issues during HS season but by November, problems popped up.  Two missed entire freshman season before they were able to step on the HS field.  Two started to show issues during my season.  I shut them down and required proper assessment and PT plan before letting them back.  Parents' initial reaction was mad at me.  They wanted them to keep playing.  I honestly believe we saved those two from more serious damage.   We had one senior who is a highly decorated D1 bound P.  I fear for his future because, even after he committed, they kept pushing hard on the summer/fall/winter tour, largely with the draft in mind.  He was clearly fatigued on a televised event and I don't think ever fully recovered.  I really love the kid and the family but my advice in that regard went largely ignored.

On the other side of the coin are young players who are more than capable of enjoying and contributing at the HS level but are discouraged and quitting because they are unable, for a variety of reasons, to "keep up with the Jones's" with all the travel, showcase, instruction, etc. that the others are doing.   Then I have another who's parents pulled him from the program because he was initially assigned to get playing time at the JV level and that was beneath their son since they had put so much into travel ball to assure his success in HS and beyond. 

Please, people.

 Well said. 

Dominik85 posted:

I think that showcases are a good thing because they are a place of concentrated attention. I just think many do it too early, don't have proper rest periods and do too many of them.

wait until you have something to showcase. It is nice to show off that you throw hard for a freshman but you just as well can wait until you can throw really hard.

I think this is correct. The real truth is that all the factors that go into such a decision are extremely individualistic. It certainly isn't up to the NCAA or MLB to enact policy that assumes a one-size-fits-all system. What I wouldn't mind seeing is a larger pool of resources on education in this matter. That's something the NCAA or MLB or even PG or PBR could certainly involve themselves in. More information that would help players and parent 1) realize they need a showcase/recruitment plan and 2) give them the tools to build it is something I could definitely get behind.

roothog66 posted:
Dominik85 posted:

I think that showcases are a good thing because they are a place of concentrated attention. I just think many do it too early, don't have proper rest periods and do too many of them.

wait until you have something to showcase. It is nice to show off that you throw hard for a freshman but you just as well can wait until you can throw really hard.

.... What I wouldn't mind seeing is a larger pool of resources on education in this matter. ...

I know of a really good large pool of resources in this matter   

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