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How do you think the amateur hitters get it wrong and what do you think they need to do to get it correct?
Do you like moving the hands? If so in which way?
If we are talking hands I see a lot of kids who either bar their arm out or get no movement at all. If we are talking lower half I see player who get no weight going to their back half.
There are different levels of hitters at all levels. At the hs level you will see alot of kids that are dead hands hitters. You will see alot of metal bat swings. And you will see many hitters that start the hands and lower half at the same time. The top level hitters will get the hands started first.
When you say "hands move first", are you saying load first or fire first?
quote:Originally posted by BlueDog:
Agreed....
The hands and arms need to begin moving before the bottom half......This encourages a rear hip load and gives the hitter momentum producing activity....
When the hands move first, watch what the back hip does...
How do you suggest teaching it. I talk to my players consistently but I have a lot of players that fail to do it. How though do you teach it. Do you have drills to help?
My son will tip and rip in the batting cages, but I done see him doing it in the games U10. It maybe one reason he had so much trouble with an overpowering pitcher last year. He as able to hit the high speed in the cages, but at game time, I could tell he was just over powered.
movement in hands not a bad thing... unless the player can't get to their "launch" position on time and or make contact with ball at their desired point of impact - due to too much movement or improper movement....
momentum is a key component, if done correctly...
momentum is a key component, if done correctly...
IMHO - The majority of big league hitters utilize a rotational swing. The key is the ability to implement the hands in a linear fashion with the rotation of your feet.
My son had a linear type swing thru high school. Although he was All State and played college ball D3. The lack of power that this swing produced, ultimely cost him the chance to play at a higher level (D1 or D2). After him working with Rudy Jaramillo (Tx Rangers) once, and Dave Hudgins who was with the Oakland A's at the time and currently with the Clevland Indians at a 2 day camp. Only then did he/I start to fully understand the mechanics of the swing. He was All Conference his Junior year and actually had an offer from a D1 school after that year. Having to sit out for a year was not really an option. But it was an offer still the same.
Dave Hudgins has a set of DVD's out, called. Hitting for Excellence. http://www.hitting.com/index.asp
After your load. If you are Hands first, it is a linear type of approach i.e. aluminium bat swing, power is greatly diminshed. The hands need to fire at the same time as the back heel turns to contact and thru extension. Your rear toe should be pointed in the direction that you should drive the ball in relation to pitch location at full extension allowing you to stay behind the ball.. Thus at contact point the lower end works in conjunction with the upper end.
Listed below are rough estimates. There will be slight variations with all hitters:
Stance-weight balanced 50/50
Load-weight either 20/80 or 30/70
Contact point 50/50
extension 60/40
My son had a linear type swing thru high school. Although he was All State and played college ball D3. The lack of power that this swing produced, ultimely cost him the chance to play at a higher level (D1 or D2). After him working with Rudy Jaramillo (Tx Rangers) once, and Dave Hudgins who was with the Oakland A's at the time and currently with the Clevland Indians at a 2 day camp. Only then did he/I start to fully understand the mechanics of the swing. He was All Conference his Junior year and actually had an offer from a D1 school after that year. Having to sit out for a year was not really an option. But it was an offer still the same.
Dave Hudgins has a set of DVD's out, called. Hitting for Excellence. http://www.hitting.com/index.asp
After your load. If you are Hands first, it is a linear type of approach i.e. aluminium bat swing, power is greatly diminshed. The hands need to fire at the same time as the back heel turns to contact and thru extension. Your rear toe should be pointed in the direction that you should drive the ball in relation to pitch location at full extension allowing you to stay behind the ball.. Thus at contact point the lower end works in conjunction with the upper end.
Listed below are rough estimates. There will be slight variations with all hitters:
Stance-weight balanced 50/50
Load-weight either 20/80 or 30/70
Contact point 50/50
extension 60/40
quote:The key is the ability to implement the hands in a linear fashion with the rotation of your feet.
Hands on a line in relation to the rotation of one's feet? That makes zero sense to me...
quote:The hands need to fire at the same time as the back heel turns
so squish the bug? and as one squishes the bug, his hands to work on a line to the ball?
quote:Stance-weight balanced 50/50
Load-weight either 20/80 or 30/70
Contact point 50/50
extension 60/40
You were talking about swings being rotational is the way to go, but if at "load" one has 70-80% on backside, and at "contact/extension" one has 60% on front side, that is LINEAR.
That is load to the back, swing to the front, throw your hands to the ball... not a bad idea if your name is Ichiro...
quote:so squish the bug? and as one squishes the bug, his hands to work on a line to the ball?
No one said anything about squishing any bug..
Rotation from your lower end, includes feet and hips, shoulders from upper end. Now if you let your hands rotate in a circle, you basically swing a purse at the ball. Barrell does not stay in the zone very long, basically drawing an O with your hands and barrell.
IMHO, You let your hands go on plane or slightly above, depending on pitch location, when you go heel - toe, with your feet. Basically drawing a capitol D with your hands. This D would represent a LH hand path. Strait line thru extension, then the follow thru. Note how long the barrell stays in the hitting zone.
My weight transfers might be a little off on the extension. In reality contact and extension should be close to the same. Completion and follow thru are more likely to be 60/40, than extension.
quote:Now if you let your hands rotate in a circle, you basically swing a purse at the ball.
No, none of my hitters swing a purse... but yes, metal or wood... and i want them to swing the bat (or purse) circular... then physics can take over and you have effortless power because of the conservation of the angular momentum...
Objects (bats) executing motion around a point (spine/body) possess a quantity called angular momentum. For the simple case of a small mass (bat) executing uniform circular motion around a much larger mass [body] (so that we can neglect the effect of the center of mass) the amount of angular momentum takes a simple form.
The conservation of angular momentum demands that a decrease in the separation (distance of hands from spine)be accompanied by an increase in the velocity and vice versa. Meaning the further your hands are away from your spine, the slower the bat moves... the closer they are the faster it travels - this being physics all doing the work for you (with everything else being equal).
a bat following the hands in a circular motion covers no less area than a bat on a straight line... they both can cover entire plate they both can hit the ball whether it is an "inside" or "outside" pitch. They both can be in "hitting zone" for exact length of time....
no one can push/pull a bat around their body with more velocity than using angular momentum... just like no pitcher would ever push/pull a ball to home plate... they would use angular momentum as well to "conserve" energy to point of "release."
bottom line... hands to the ball has momentum but it is "ordinary momentum." It is a measure of an object's tendency to move at constant/decelerating speed along a straight path. Momentum depends on speed and mass. A train moving at 20 mph has more momentum than a bicyclist moving at the same speed.
For things moving in straight lines momentum is simply mass × speed.
Angular momentum measures an object's tendency to continue to spin. Angular momentum = mass × velocity × distance (from point object is spinning or around)
You plug in the numbers and let me know which is greater...
Linear Baseball Swing: Velocity is contant or slowing down (to the point of impact).
Rotaional Baseball Swing: Velocity is constant on increasing (to the point of impact).
But JMO.... and that of every Physics Professor in the world...
You are both right and you are both wrong.
Power-
Thanks for the in depth explanation...
Thanks for the in depth explanation...
quote:Originally posted by Diablo con Huevos:
Power-
Thanks for the in depth explanation...
As I noted in the photo sequence of Holliday's swing, the hands will be moving in a straight line from frame six through extension. They are only moving in a circular path because they are attached to the body by way of the arms. The body is moving in a circular path as will the hands, but only in the same way a person on a Merry-go-round is going in a circular path on a moving ride. The hands are not contributing to the swing at this point other than helping to find the plane of the pitch and to move the bat to the slot by way of hand torque. This path is circular to some extent from top to bottom, but not around in a circle as in away from the body and back.
quote:They are only moving in a circular path because they are attached to the body by way of the arms.
Exactly.. they are along for the ride... in a circular fashion...like when i used an example of "small" mass, "larger mass." You can use Larger mass for body and Small mass for hands - or bat... they are both along for the ride...
quote:The hands are not contributing to the swing at this point other than helping to find the plane of the pitch and to move the bat to the slot by way of hand torque.
AGREE again....
quote:This path is circular to some extent from top to bottom, but not around in a circle as in away from the body and back.
RIGHT! just like when you hammer a nail in, the head travels on a circular path... even though it is only covering about 90 degrees of circular path, it is still on circular path... nothing has to make a complete revolution to be on a "circular path."
quote:RIGHT! just like when you hammer a nail in, the head travels on a circular path... even though it is only covering about 90 degrees of circular path, it is still on circular path... nothing has to make a complete revolution to be on a "circular path."
I am talking about the motion that moves the bathead toward the Catcher. Is that what you are talking about?
This has been a great thread. Everyone has made good points. Rudy Jramillo, I believe teaches what Diablo speaks of: The pure rotational swing. Where as Dave Hudgins teaches: To Implement the hands in a linear path with rotation.
They are both considered two of the best hitting instructors on the planet, simple as it gets. As powertoallfields said: We are both right to an extent. Just as you have different styles of hitters, the same can be said with coaching techniques.
As instructors it is our job to adapt rotation and hand path to each individaul hitter as needed to make him a better player, this will not be the same for every player, nor should it be.
They are both considered two of the best hitting instructors on the planet, simple as it gets. As powertoallfields said: We are both right to an extent. Just as you have different styles of hitters, the same can be said with coaching techniques.
As instructors it is our job to adapt rotation and hand path to each individaul hitter as needed to make him a better player, this will not be the same for every player, nor should it be.
Great post. Players are different. You have to tailor to what they are capable of doing.
quote:Originally posted by Old School79:
This has been a great thread. Everyone has made good points. Rudy Jramillo, I believe teaches what Diablo speaks of: The pure rotational swing. Where as Dave Hudgins teaches: To Implement the hands in a linear path with rotation.
They are both considered two of the best hitting instructors on the planet, simple as it gets. As powertoallfields said: We are both right to an extent. Just as you have different styles of hitters, the same can be said with coaching techniques.
As instructors it is our job to adapt rotation and hand path to each individaul hitter as needed to make him a better player, this will not be the same for every player, nor should it be.
Oh yea, Sorry, I forgot, behind BlueDog,,,,,,of coarse. 
quote:I am talking about the motion that moves the bathead toward the Catcher. Is that what you are talking about?
no, i was talking about after "launching" swing.
But I believe the hand torque helps get bathead headed back to catcher/getting bat on plane...
