"Preferred Walk On ?"

Great questions.

The mian question you need to ask the coach is if he is being guaranteed a roster spot. The whole key here is trust. If the program is known for running guys off in the fall, then it would be hard for me to take them fully at their word.

Only you and your son can make this decision. This is a huge risk but sometimes the risk pays off - big time. The key is not to be the 35th kid on the roster. If your son is a competitive guy and willing to start way down on the depth chart, and willing to outwork all the scholarship guys frankly, then maybe, just perhaps maybe it is worth the risk.

The JUCO option might be the best of all worlds here. Your son gets money, he gets to develop, and just maybe this same fine D1 comes back with a money offer next year when the money "frees" up.

I am a big fan of the Juco option, as it will give your ballplayer the opportunity to mature and get better, and if he has the game, play right away. My concern would be that he simply doesn't get the opportunity over the autumn to demonstrate that he has what it takes and then he would get released. No, it wouldn't be "fair," but as I am sure you've read from these pages, it happens all the time.

To me, Juco ball mirrors professional baseball's minor leagues in some important ways; you either do it or you don't, it's "live" and you can see how well you stack up against the competition. Also (and we tend to forget it in our conversations), it shows fairly quickly whether or not the ballplayer can balance the academics as well. After your ballplayer has a year or two of success under his belt, he will almost certainly have more options.

Ball Coach
I agree 100%, son left D1 after 1 year to go JUCO and you are very correct that it mirrors the milb system much more. His JUCO has a fall scout preview tonight, scrimmage, and 18 scouts are already registered to attend. However, make sure it is a "fit" and he is guaranteed a spot because I think JUCO is as competitive or more so than D1. You will see many more walk ons in JUCO but they are not near as advanced. Also, become very informed about staying academically eligible for a D1 school.
If your son is regarded as a legit pro prospect I would suggest JUCO, if not, I would think hard about the D1 and academics.

quote:

Originally posted by LovetheGame2:
Son has been offered PWO at a great D-1 program. I've researched this on the archives of this site and opinions really differ. What are the questions we should be asking the coach? What are the risks? The coach says they are out of $ but that he would be the first to get scholly if one free's up or 2nd year at worst..is that a reality? He has other BB money offers (Another good fit D-1, a couple of great D-2's and a great JUCO) Thanks.

I don't have experience with this as I am just getting into the game so to speak. However I did want to pass on this one story I recently heard. A 19 year old kid was working out with my son and a few others at a D1 and was hoping to make their team. He said that he was originally offered a roster spot at another D1 as a walk on because there was "no money left that year". So he turned down some other offers to go there because it was a school he really wanted to play for. Next thing he knew he was in camp with close to 50 kids, many of whom had been told the same story. Before he knew it he was washed out of the program and left with no other choices that year. Even though I believe the kids story, I wont mention the program because it is only second hand. However if it is true, the only thing you can do is investigate the program to determine if the staff have a good or bad reputation in that arena.
A knowledgeable D1 coach told me that one of the ways to find out is to talk with some of the bench players(not the studs), and ask them how happy they are with the program. Were promises made and kept? Did they have a cattle call earlier where some kids thought they were on the team only to be washed out?
I imagine there are other ways to investigate a program and how trustworthy they are, but others here with more experience will need to guide you.

LovetheGame2,

A preferred walk on offer is always of concern if he will be able to make and stay on the roster or the starting line-up.

You will want to get a good understanding what his role is going to be and decide what it is going to mean to your son if that does not come to be. Check their stats, what kind of playing time do no-starters get, do they get any time, or only a few ab's or innings for the year.

A couple of things to consider, some programs will offer much more of the available money to pitchers, if your son is a pitcher, follow up money may in fact be there if some comes available or the second year, I would certainly want it writing.

If your son is a role position player, I would be very weary if they offer much or any money to them unless he is a high impact player, but if he was, he most likely have been offered money at this point already.

Money does come up latter. A friend's room mate had not gotten money, but more than expected signed late after the draft, he went in and ask if he could get money, he came out with his tuition paid. My friend's son went in next and asked for more money, and his monthly allowance for housing was increased. This is days before school had started. This is certainly nothing that you should count on.

You have to ask yourself, is it about the money or the opportunity to play for the school whether or not he gets money. Will he continue at the college if he gets to play but the money does not come.

As stated on other threads, research the history of the program and see if players who had eligibility have returned, such as freshman making it to sophomore years or are they being shed off whether the coaches saying they don't have positions or they decided not to return on their own.

Good Luck and enjoy the ride!

CT, agreed about the "competitiveness" point. My son's first year had almost 70 kids try out in the Fall at his Juco, but pretty quickly it became evident that probably 20 of them were in over their heads. Thinned out pretty quickly by October 1.

I would also suggest to LtG2 that he may even find a lot more quality programs interested if his son does well at a Juco. I said this elsewhere, I found more 4-year college assistant coaches scouting in any two weeks of Juco ball then I did at a season's worth of high school baseball games.

Now, I admit that mine is a small sample (one kid/one Juco), but I have heard similar comments elsewhere.

For me it comes down to the investment a program is willing to make in your son. If they really want him and think he will contribute then they will allocate the $$ accordingly. Of course if a coach suddenly finds a kid he really wants he will try to convince him to come with limited $$ commitment. So to me it would depend on the integrity of the program and whether the program suddenly discovered my son. If they had been following him and did not allocate $$ then I would be very wary.

I know of programs who have taken walk on’s and converted them to scholly players in year two. I also think you need to look at the injury factors and find out how the program handles injured players. You can assume that if he is injured he will not get $$ in year two and risks being dropped completely. My advice would be to go through the “what if’s” with the coach and be very specific in discussing this directly with the head coach and not a recruiting coach. I would worry less about the upside “what if’s” than the negative ones, because as they say stuff happens. I would also make sure you have independent view of where your son fits competitively against other kids in the program, we all have rose glasses with our son’s so make sure he REALLY can compete at the level of the program you are considering, not just your opinion. The other factor, for me at least, would be would the baseball program get my son into a school he would not necessarily qualify for and is academically superior to what he was looking for. So if he does not make it baseball wise he is in a better place than he would have been and the program did help him out by getting him admitted.

If you do all of your homework, particularly thinking through the negative scenarios, then you can make better decision.

As BOF implied, if he's a preferred walk on and not a scholarship player how likely is he to get significant playing time or quality practice time? A program we think has the utmost integrity offered to get my son admitted to the school. It was and is his #1 choice of schools. They didn't offer a roster spot because they had just had their roster spots cut. They told us exactly how many players he'd be competing against for the last two spots on the roster. My son had no doubt about his ability to win one of those last two spots but the reality was that even if he did win a spot he'd be one of the last two players on the roster and be fighting an uphill battle for playing time. He chose instead to go the JC route and only time will tell how that works out.

Given that your son has other D1/D2/JUCO options who clearly want him more I'd recommend taking a serious look at those schools.

Actually, BOF, I think you hit the nail on the head.

It does bring up a question, though: would a "Preferred Walk On" have an edge on a player who happens to show up, and, oh, by the way, hit a 450 foot bomb or gases it up to about 90 mph? I know this sounds a little silly, but I would wonder if the school actually attaches any real value to being a PWO, or if it is simply a nice way to grant the player the opportunity to impress (and not have him sign with another school).

These comments bring up some good points. First, son is a RHP that in the last 90 days has added about 10 lbs (6'2" 185lbs and still growing) and just cracked the 90 mph mark documented by the 2 D-1's. The PWO offer came from a school that saw him late for the first time 2 weeks ago and then we attended their camp a week ago, so its moved pretty fast. They say that they have 2 RHP's already signed that are comparable but his offspeed is much nastier but that they are out of money but really want him. They may lose one of these guys to the draft however we cant count, or wait on that and risk losing the other offers. The other D-1 is a school that baseball is opening the door academically, no question. I have always liked the JUCO route to mature him as a young man and a player, not so much with aspirations of going pro, but if it leads to a great offer from a top D-1 because he excels, then that works. He is not thrilled with the JUCO idea as he is a confident young man and ready to take on the world now, if you know what i mean...

quote:

Originally posted by LovetheGame2:
These comments bring up some good points. First, son is a RHP that in the last 90 days has added about 10 lbs (6'2" 185lbs and still growing) and just cracked the 90 mph mark documented by the 2 D-1's. The PWO offer came from a school that saw him late for the first time 2 weeks ago and then we attended their camp a week ago, so its moved pretty fast. They say that they have 2 RHP's already signed that are comparable but his offspeed is much nastier but that they are out of money but really want him. They may lose one of these guys to the draft however we cant count, or wait on that and risk losing the other offers. The other D-1 is a school that baseball is opening the door academically, no question. I have always liked the JUCO route to mature him as a young man and a player, not so much with aspirations of going pro, but if it leads to a great offer from a top D-1 because he excels, then that works. He is not thrilled with the JUCO idea as he is a confident young man and ready to take on the world now, if you know what i mean...

These are great comments...

Look, ultimately your son makes the decision. He can have his cake and eat it here too with the JUCO. I'll be honest, but I bet if you ask him honestly, the main issue right now with him is he wants people (his friends) to know that a major D1 is after him. Encourage him that the JUCO allows all these things to happen yet even more might happen for him if he plays his cards correctly. He cannot get better sitting on the bench and 99.9% of walk-ons (even most scholarship players) do just that.

He swallows his pride for one year, excells at the JUCO and he goes from walk-on status to perhaps weekend starter status to the school of his dreams. He needs to play. His friends will just have to wait one year for the announcement. I am sure those coaches have said nice things to him like "We see you being a star in our program" etc. Let him know that lots of guys hear those things.

LtG2 -

In my opinion, after high school (and if you aren't playing in what we euphemistically used to call a "beer" league ), it's a business. If he dominates at the Juco level for a year, I am guessing that you wil have a little larger selection of D1's to choose from. Just my two cents; good luck and please let everyone know what you decide.

OBC

CD, I was writing mine when you were writing yours. I agree 100%; better to play and show you can do it, than hope that a coach sees that "special something" over all those other kids.

quote:

Originally posted by Ole Ball Coach:
CD, I was writing mine when you were writing yours. I agree 100%; better to play and show you can do it, than hope that a coach sees that "special something" over all those other kids.

Ole Ball Coach - thank you and I have enjoyed all your posts!

At the end of the day, this young man needs to make his own decisions. Parents see their kids do well against 17 and 18 year old players and that is but one frame of reference. No one can explain what it is like to compete against 21 and 22 year old players who have superior strength and ability. The stronger and more experienced players almost always win, but obviously there are exceptions.

Be careful with the 1 year at a JUCO. It isn't always that easy to transfer after 1 year and JUCO coaches are not really motivated to assist transfers after 1 year.

Personally, if he's legitimately hitting 90 with good off-speed stuff and still some projection I'd say he's a fairly legit D1 guy and it might not be a bad idea to go with the preferred walk-on as long as you can afford it. If it doesn't work out he can do a 4-2-4 if he has to.

How could they lose anyone to the draft at this point in time?

The real key is to find the "preferred coach"

Not to say the D1 walk-on opportunity won't work our for your son, however the lack of financial love is a negative indicator in this situation.

If your kid is a legit d1 player, playing at a JC will give him more D1 opportunities then he currently has in front of him. He may even decide on a new "preferred school."

Playing/with/talking to JC players, scouts and coaches will gives players a new perspective on many D1 programs/coaches one could never have as a HS player.

Preferred Walk On: You will get an opportunity to show what you can do but those opportunities will be limited. You will only get an opportunity after those other guys have been given theirs. When you do get that opportunity you better be lights out. I mean lights out. And if the guys ahead of you are lights out you can forget it. The other guys will have to prove they can not play. You will have to prove you can play. They will be given opportunities to overcome bad days. You may not.

In other words its an uphill battle from day one. As long as the kid knows what he is up against and can handle that fine. But this is simply a fact. You may think its a level playing field going in. But the fact is in many cases your starting a lap down. And unless those in front of you crash and burn and you are going to stay a lap down.

Would the player be better off going somewhere where he is on a level playing field coming in? Thats up to the player. But I think its important for them to understand what they are up against going in.

Coach: Your description of a preferred walk on sounds like a mid to late round draft pick. At least as we travel these roads some things are consistant; Go where they Love You! (If you have a choice!!!).



My guy did not have a clear path laid out and did have a number of D-1 options as well as D-2 and JUCO. FSU offered him a "Preferred Walk On" out of HS and this past year as well, however he chose to go where he felt he had an opportunity to start and play every single game which was JUCO. In two years he may have sat 5 innings...

This year he had nice offers from several D-1 and D-2 programs again. He went to the best team where he felt "the love".

He really enjoyed the JUCO experience and it opened doors that were not there before.

Congratulations to your son LTG2! It is a blessing to have "options", a privilege denied many HS ballplayers.

Floridafan, I agree wholeheartedly on this, our son is doing quite well at Juco and is getting vibes from D1 schools because his grades are good. I say any JUCO spot is better than being a walk on at D1,II, or III. You need to keep playing to get better.

CADad is right, most kids can't leave JUCO for 4 year programs after one year. Last year one kid from sons program left after freshman year to a D1 and did poorly, came back home.

This may be the way things are done some places, perhaps even most places. But it is not the case everywhere. Some programs recruit to fill roster spots, some scholarship, some non-scholarship. There is no overrecruiting or open cattle call tryouts. It makes no difference whether the kid is on scholarship, only how well he performs. How many schools are there that do things this way? I don't know. But I know of one prominent D1 program that does.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach_May:
Preferred Walk On: You will get an opportunity to show what you can do but those opportunities will be limited. You will only get an opportunity after those other guys have been given theirs. When you do get that opportunity you better be lights out. I mean lights out. And if the guys ahead of you are lights out you can forget it. The other guys will have to prove they can not play. You will have to prove you can play. They will be given opportunities to overcome bad days. You may not.

In other words its an uphill battle from day one. As long as the kid knows what he is up against and can handle that fine. But this is simply a fact. You may think its a level playing field going in. But the fact is in many cases your starting a lap down. And unless those in front of you crash and burn and you are going to stay a lap down.

Would the player be better off going somewhere where he is on a level playing field coming in? Thats up to the player. But I think its important for them to understand what they are up against going in.

I am sure this is not the case in every program. I should have clarified that in my post. I am aware of programs where this is indeed the case. But I am sure there are programs that do not operate this way. Good point MTH.

CaDad, I think the "draft" comment was for next June as these are 2011 grads. I did want to say that the 4-2-4 idea makes sense on a number of platforms, so please posters correct me if this is flawed. We are feeling the "love" from the other D-1 program which a is great fit, we feel we will get playing time based on the roster and his comparable ability and the fact that he would never have gotten in there without baseball. Second, the JUCO or even the D-2 (and I think you are allowed one change for D-1 to D-2) would still be an option if the D-1 ended up as a disaster. It sounds like the 2nd year at a JUCO is more critical anyway, and we wont burn any bridges. The decision is not made and hopefully we can get through Jupiter before we have to committ. Please keep the feedback coming, it is invaluable to us in this most challenging time.

I read a quote in this thread that I think needs to be added to the litany of lines high school kids will hear, "we're out of money".

My favorite is "He has a chance to make an immediate contribution". Player hears:"I may start as a freshman", Dad hears:"Freshman all conference maybe...", Coach means "If he blows us away with his limited chances he may just play a little".

In many cases, I suspect "we're out of money" means "we have no money for you". There's no way to independently verify whether the school has money left or not. But in the world of business, which often parallels the world of sports, it's an absolute truism that "where the money goes, the heart follows".

Players drafted with significant bonuses paid will get more opportunities than undrafted free agents. They just do. Same theory. Can the guy with no money make it-sure, but the opportunities will be more limited.

LtG2,

It is great to have options and I wish your son all the best. If baseball gets your son into a school he really wants to get into regardless (and I think you alluded to that), then he should go to that school. I would only reiterate that you be mindful of the business end of things.

With that said, I do not believe that a "Preferred Walk On" confers any greater status than a "regular" walk on (I have no great experience here, just observing and talking to some college coach friends of mine); if your boy pitches lights out, then he pitches lights out. If he doesn't, well, then he doesn't. Either way, scholarship money is not charity; it is payment for a service. Plain and simple.

To me, you need to properly value what he could contribute. Blue chippers do it all the time in other sports; for some reason, we tend to think that college baseball is immune. I think that is the reason I am such a big fan of the JuCo system; a player can get on the field and prove his value.

OBC

"When I use a word it means what I choose it to mean--nothing more nor less." Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland.

This is often the case with "Preferred Walkon." What it means, if anything, is what each individual coach wants it to mean. Some coaches, perhaps a minority, don't like the term at all. They prefer to speak in terms of roster spots/slots. The thing to ask a coach is are you promising me a roster spot/slot? Or will I be in open competition with other "preferred" and "non-preferred" walkons?

Ask the right questions and do your homework. If a coach will look you in the eye and promises a roster spot/slot, AND typically only has 35 or less at fall practice, you're probably in good shape.

quote:

Originally posted by Ole Ball Coach:
LtG2,

It is great to have options and I wish your son all the best. If baseball gets your son into a school he really wants to get into regardless (and I think you alluded to that), then he should go to that school. I would only reiterate that you be mindful of the business end of things.

With that said, I do not believe that a "Preferred Walk On" confers any greater status than a "regular" walk on (I have no great experience here, just observing and talking to some college coach friends of mine); if your boy pitches lights out, then he pitches lights out. If he doesn't, well, then he doesn't. Either way, scholarship money is not charity; it is payment for a service. Plain and simple.

To me, you need to properly value what he could contribute. Blue chippers do it all the time in other sports; for some reason, we tend to think that college baseball is immune. I think that is the reason I am such a big fan of the JuCo system; a player can get on the field and prove his value.

OBC

At the end of the day, when it is all said and done, the best players will play. It doesn't matter if they are on a full scholarship, academic scholarship, or no scholarship. Coaches want to win and they play the players that will help the team win. If you disagree with that, you aren't a coach...

The way the college baseball is set up now, colleges have to recruit walk ons...NO EXCEPTION! There are 35 roster spots, and only 27 players can receive scholarship money. That means that you must have walk ons on your roster.

Just because a coach offers you a walk on spot doesn't mean that he doesn't like you. Roster spots are limited, if you're offered one it means that he likes you and thinks that you can contribute to the team. These aren't the old days where you could have 47 players on a team and you can load up on walk ons. There are only 35 players, no way around it.

Catching101 and MTH add some balance to the discussion.

Key things to consider, assuming your son really wants to play for this program:
* How trustworthy is this coach? (you can ask around and also post anonymous queries on HSBBW to learn what you need to know)
* Will he be guaranteed a roster spot not only for the fall, but also for the spring? (50-60 can be on a roster in the fall, but it must be trimmed to 35 by the start of the spring season)
* What is the history of this program giving PWO's playing time?

True story: my son was a preferred walk-on who received no athletic money (he did receive another type of scholarship on his own merit). The coaching staff gave him an official visit and promised him a spot on the team all 4 years. They said he could make an immediate impact defensively, but needed time to bulk up for hitting. The coaches honored their word, and my son was treated exactly like every other member of the team. No one knew what kind of scholarship he had. (Btw, there were only 30-32 on the roster in both the spring and fall.) In the fall of his freshman year, he exceeded the coaches' expectations and the week before the season started, there were 2 injuries in the infield. He got to start about a dozen games as a freshman, performed very well, and beat out others on athletic money.

I'm not saying this is a common occurrence, but it can and does happen. The main thing to find out is whether the coaches at this prospective school are men of their word and what their policies are regarding playing time for PWO's.

Here is an article on a HS teammate of my son who is a demonstrated success as a walkon at Florida State, you may remember his story from Omaha CWS:

Sherman Johnson FSU

There is the "flip side" of being an invited walk-on. Assuming a fully funded program you are now fighting for the last 8 spots on the roster.

I have known too many young men that aspired to play for a "Big time D1 program." Most had very good HS careers where they played, contributed and found success. I have listened to many a kid or parents say "they will be happy just being on the team."

Yet; there are many a kid that had a roster spot that either played very little or were redshirted and were told "you are not part of our plans" or did not play at all. Every year I see really good players that went off to "Big time D1" return home and find a spot at a local JC.

My point is you have to be honest; Do you want to play baseball or do you want to go to that school and if I don't play will you be happy? If your answer is you want to play go where you are wanted; if this means it is not "Big time D1" in the end you may have a better experience.

All that for just 2-cents!

Somewhere along the line you have to trust your gut feeling.

You either trust the coach or you don't !!!

You could ask him for a letter outlining how he plans to use the boy

quote:

You either trust the coach or you don't !!!

Sounds good, but some coaches are smooth talkers. (My son found out firsthand.) It helps to do research and look at the history at specific programs.

Here is an incredible story about a player that I got to coach in 2007:

http://mopupduty.com/index.php...rn-toronto-blue-jay/

There is nothing wrong with being a walk on...

quote:

Originally posted by Catching101:
At the end of the day, when it is all said and done, the best players will play...

Agreed; and I certainly defer to someone who coaches for a living (like I said, I only know what I have observed and heard over the years). I just wonder how a good a look number 28-35 get. I mean, there are still only nine spots on the field.

A friends son got a preferred walk on but has been diagnosed with a medical problem that will prevent them from competing in the fall. I wonder how likely the school is going to keep a roster spot open for them come the regular season?

quote:

Originally posted by Vector:
A friends son got a preferred walk on but has been diagnosed with a medical problem that will prevent them from competing in the fall. I wonder how likely the school is going to keep a roster spot open for them come the regular season?

That's a tough one. I mean, if he doesn't get to have his "shot" in fall ball, how could a coach skip another walk-on that is competing the whole autumn? One could only hope that he showed really well until he could no longer play.

Walk ons are very school dependent. I understand Santa Clara University has pulled in players from fall tryouts who were purely walk-ons. We know of a kid who was a preferred walk-on at CSUN when Rousey and Kertanian were there. We know that he got the last available roster spot. He worked his way into the starting rotation as a freshman. There are other schools where a preferred walk-on is at a serious disadvantage. You've really got to do the research on a particular school and coaching staff.

What is the best way to investigate how legit the coaches and this offer are? They are telling us its a guaranteed roster spot on the 35 man roster. Also that as soon as baseball money becomes available he is the first to receive. Of course they wont put any of this in writing but they seem sincere. This is a tough one because its the number one school on the "college we'd like to attend" list but we have other offers pending. They also want us to committ but what are we committing to?

I have seen coaches put it in writing

quote:

Originally posted by LovetheGame2:
What is the best way to investigate how legit the coaches and this offer are? They are telling us its a guaranteed roster spot on the 35 man roster. Also that as soon as baseball money becomes available he is the first to receive. Of course they wont put any of this in writing but they seem sincere. This is a tough one because its the number one school on the "college we'd like to attend" list but we have other offers pending. They also want us to committ but what are we committing to?

My suggestion is talk to a few families of players about their experience. How they treat contributors and how they treat role players. I suggest talking to some of top performers and more important those who are bench players and/or former players who left the program.

There should be some level of comfort that the coach could give you that he will be on the 35 man roster in the Spring and what they would give him in terms of athletic aid the following year, what they give you the first year would be icing on the cake, since he said he had committed the funds at this point. Some additional comfort would be also asking what he see's your son's role would be on the team, but then again, that could be the biggest area of "salesmanship" the coach is going to provide, as it will change based on actual performance.

Even a email asking for clarification, could give you a better level of comfort even though it may not be binding. We have a friend who got the clarification in a email of his athletic aid and the coach indicated that he does not take away aid unless the player does not keep up his grades or is not a good citizen, the coach tried to take away some portions of his aid but because the coach had stated that he would not reduce his aid over the four years, the school made him honor it.

btw: since my original post days ago and you clarified your son's position and some of his skill level, I can see the coach possibly already committing his next year's dollars and still wanting to bring in your son to contribute.