"Preferred Walk On ?"

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Originally posted by LovetheGame2:
What is the best way to investigate how legit the coaches and this offer are? They are telling us its a guaranteed roster spot on the 35 man roster. Also that as soon as baseball money becomes available he is the first to receive. Of course they wont put any of this in writing but they seem sincere. This is a tough one because its the number one school on the "college we'd like to attend" list but we have other offers pending. They also want us to committ but what are we committing to?

LtG2 - I know I am beginning to sound like the voice of doom, but absent a written description detailing how the commitment will play out over the coming years, I would look at other offers. If your son makes a commitment, its just that, right? I can assure you the NCAA thinks so.

Obviously, if this is the first choice of schools and that's where he wants to go, well then you should. The only thing I would add is, have you looked at their current pitching staff? Who projects for next year? That might factor into my decision too.

Catching 101, You have a PM. HRKB

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Originally posted by Ole Ball Coach:

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Originally posted by LovetheGame2:
What is the best way to investigate how legit the coaches and this offer are? They are telling us its a guaranteed roster spot on the 35 man roster. Also that as soon as baseball money becomes available he is the first to receive. Of course they wont put any of this in writing but they seem sincere. This is a tough one because its the number one school on the "college we'd like to attend" list but we have other offers pending. They also want us to committ but what are we committing to?

LtG2 - If your son makes a commitment, its just that, right? I can assure you the NCAA thinks so.

Actually, if there is not any money the first year, there is no NLI, so it is a verbal commitment, non-binding either side.

So if things don't pan out in the fall as a PWO, he hasn't lost a year? I thought that once you enrolled and showed up in the Fall, the clock started.

I wasn't clear as to what I was trying to convey when I wrote the above post.

I may be wrong, but I believe for non-scholarship players that walk on during the Fall, this would not apply.

If on the other hand the player signed a LOI or is listed on the official Spring Roster, then a year of eligibility is gone.

For DI, once he starts classes on a full time basis at a accredited school (4 year or 2 year), his 5 year to play 4 seasons of ball clock starts, whether he is on the team or not.

He will also have to sit out the next year if he transfers to another DI school, as well.

DII season counter rules are slightly different than DI rules.

This is important. If I am interpreting these comments correctly, if he agrees to walk on and then we find out, before school even starts, that it is just not feasible to attend, for any reason, there is no liability and he can go somewhere else with no risk of losing eligibility?

Like your concern that the program will not follow through with what they promise he recruit. Things happen like financial situations change, you may find out as time gets closer that they have over recruited, etc. but a verbal commitment is just that. Some programs will pull NLI's or make it uncomfortable on players at the last minute.

I certainly would not recommend giving a verbal agreement and not following through, the baseball community is small and word gets around and stories can grow, but without a NLI (since there is no athletic scholarship), there is no binding agreement and he could go to another program before school starts without having to sit out a year nor loose a year's eligibility.

At the end of the day, you have to trust someone. All programs have to have walk on's as they can not give as many scholarships as they have roster positions, but if you hear of concerns with being a walk on or PWO at the program, there is most likely bigger concerns that what you hear vs less.

If your son has the skill level that you stated, is open to development, willing to wait his turn, they have just recently found him, and it is his dream school. Once you gain a comfort level (with possibly getting some clarification possibly in writing) It could really work out.

Good Luck and enjoy the ride.

If you ask me, being offered a "preferred walk on" is basically a coach telling you your not good enough in his eyes right now to get a scholarship offer. However in case he is wrong, he would love to have you come to campus, if you make the team, he is a hero, if not, no skin off his back, and your at a school with no baseball to play. It's a one way street, benefits a college only, not a player. My son had 2 after attending camps, we took it as a "no interest" and moved on.
Now, if this is his dream school regardless of baseball, its a win, go for it and have a great time, competing or not.
IMO of course..

When my oldest finished his sophomore year, there were some schools, including two D1s, one of which that we regarded fairly highly, that were interested in letting him come out as a PWO. We viewed them similarly and discounted them.

While he could have gone to any of them to try out (big caveat; he also had very good grades), we didn't see him figuring in their plans, at least immediately. The one we ultimately chose had openings at his position and liked him enough that they found $$$ to sign. To be very clear, this only happened in early July; but the coaches were still "shopping" at that late date. Importantly, he wasn't even the last player to sign this year.

I know that other folks here will say that every college situation is different, and I don't disagree. Still, I find myself very skeptical when a college program offers a tryout, but no commitment. It is, I believe, a business.

Sometimes I think too much emphasis is put on money. 11.7 scholarships only goes so far so I agree with Catching101 in that every program will have a certain number of players who get no scholarship money but are a vital part of the team. Always hear how Garrido at Texas spends all his money on pitching so if you believe that then some pretty darn good position players are then technically PWO's.

If a kid can play he'll get his chances, money or not. No coach who is paid to produce would choose one kid over another because he gets scholly money. More to the fact that scholly money is year to year so the tables may be turned in year 2.

If you have a PWO position offered don't rule it out just because you get no money to start. Be objective about your talent and if it's truly where you want to be and you've asked all the right questions and trust the coaches then go compete, the money will take care of itself.

This is a tough one. I think my son would really feel better, and I know I would, if there was at least something in writing reiterating what they told him about for sure being a part of the 35 man spring roster and that when the money free's up he should be top on the list for a scholly. I wish money wasnt an issue but unfortunatley it is, especially out of state. IS this too much to ask for again even though they have said they couldnt? This letter could tip the scales as stated before we have other offers showing the "love"....thanks

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If a kid can play he'll get his chances, money or not. No coach who is paid to produce would choose one kid over another because he gets scholly money.

Maybe, certainly not always.

The problem is most kids w/o money don't get anywhere near the same chance to show what they can do. Often times the kid with money basically has to "fail" before the walkon gets a chance. Thats why its better to not be a walkon at many schools.

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Originally posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

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If a kid can play he'll get his chances, money or not. No coach who is paid to produce would choose one kid over another because he gets scholly money.

Maybe, certainly not always.

The problem is most kids w/o money don't get anywhere near the same chance to show what they can do. Often times the kid with money basically has to "fail" before the walkon gets a chance. Thats why its better to not be a walkon at many schools.

I try to stay out of these discussions as much as possible, but I simply can't for this topic.

The above post couldn't be further from the truth...not even remotely correct. Scholarship money has nothing to do with opportunity, however, ability has a lot to do with opportunity. Our most talented players are going to get the most at bats. We have had weekend starters that are walk ons. We have had all conference players that are walk ons.

For some families money is the deciding factor. You should choose the school that is going to offer you the best experience. What do I mean by best experience? Development, academics, do you have a realistic opportunity of being an impact player, chance to win a championship, a city that you would enjoy living in, etc.

If somebody offers you a spot on the team and you don't trust them there is a problem there. Do your research.

Choosing a college isn't a 4 year decision...it's a 40 year decision.

[

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try to stay out of these discussions as much as possible, but I simply can't for this topic.

The above post couldn't be further from the truth...not even remotely correct. Scholarship money has nothing to do with opportunity, however, ability has a lot to do with opportunity. Our most talented players are going to get the most at bats. We have had weekend starters that are walk ons. We have had all conference players that are walk ons.

It maybe true of your program and experience, however the "truth" will vary from program to program. Most programs fill important roster needs with recruited kids they believe will "fit" into their program and offer them money to entice them to attend. At many programs scholarship players are given every opportunity to fail before the walkon gets a legitimate opportunity to demonstrate his ability.

I do agree that "if somebody offers you a spot on the team and you don't trust them there is a problem." My advice is that if you aren't sure about the coach, don't go, even if its the school/program you always wanted to be in. The wrong coach (for your son) can make the best academic school seem like a bad experience.

Am sure not all schools/coaches are the same so can only offer my opinion on what I've seen/heard. I can see back before baseball scholarships at the D1 level was reduced below that of womens field hockey that scholarship money made a difference because just about every roster spot got some form of money so just the law of averages worked against the true "walk on" but as Catching101 says it's not what they do at his institution and not what I have witnessed.

From the original poster's (LovetheGame2)perspective I can certainly see where money plays a role especially being an out of state school so the juco option may be just the compromise.

My point as well as Catching101's is don't be scared by the PWO offer. Do your research and choose the right fit for your situation. Good Luck.

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My point as well as Catching101's is don't be scared by the PWO offer. Do your research and choose the right fit for your situation. Good Luck.

Well, I can agree with that too. Make sure that you put yourself in a situation that fits your academic and your athletic goals.

Catching101,
I applaud your school's approach, and it sounds like a good place to play. However I was a D1 walk-on and the scholarship players were definitely given first shot. You also have to differentiate between players who are walk-ons because they don't need a scholarship vs. players who are walk-ons because the program didn't think they were as good as the scholarship players.

If I remember the OP correctly this may be more of a situation where they do want the player and they really have used up their scholarships for this year. In that case he'll probably be on even ground with the scholarship players. The difference of course is that the player who has a scholarship knows they are starting out on even ground at the worst.

CPnomore is right, but the new name is too long.

Should we request the "Walk-On" offer to provide something in writing? I think the general concensus on this site is yes. The program told us they couldnt, however I think Trhit said he had heard of colleges that have. Why wouldnt they if they are truly interested and just ran out of money because he was a late discovery? Is there any rule that says they cant at leaast outline their intentions? I know there has to be trust but accepting would mean letting the other first year money offers go which is a hard thing to do...Should we just wait until after Jupiter to see what other options may surface? Thanks all.

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You also have to differentiate between players who are walk-ons because they don't need a scholarship vs. players who are walk-ons because the program didn't think they were as good as the scholarship players.

At what point in the recruiting process do you admit that you don't need a scholarship? I could afford to send my son to school without any scholarship money but have felt that an offer would mean that they actually wanted him and intended to use him....I don't want him to end up sitting at the end of the bench because he was brought in because he was 'free'...

quote:

Originally posted by LovetheGame2:
Is there any rule that says they cant at leaast outline their intentions?

We're discussing a 2011 player and whether a college can provide some sort of written offer or outline which covers the 2012-2013 academic year, right?

There is more than one consideration here. I speculate that the NCAA rules would allow a written offer for financial aid 2 years in the future, assuming that the player has not yet entered the college. Note that a player who is already in college can not be promised aid beyond 1 year. (15.3.3.1.2) However, the requirement for an offer is a " written statement of the amount, duration, conditions and terms of the award. The chair of the regular committee or other agency for the awarding of financial aid to students generally, or the chair’s official designee, shall sign or electronically authorize (e.g., electronic signature) the written statement. The signature of the athletics director, attesting to the committee’s award, does not satisfy this requirement."(15.3.2.3) I doubt that the "chair of the regular committee" would be willing to sign an offer for aid 2 years in the future, in part because the standard NLI wouldn't be appropriate, and yet considerations like an injury before the award starts must be considered. Making up a custom offer would be too expensive. And, of course, the coach may have left before the award begins, and so the college wouldn't want to be committed that far out..

Maybe an "outline" of their intentions would work, but it would need to have language that makes it non-binding, or else it would be an offer.

Apparently they've said that "when the money frees up he should be top on the list for a scholly". By rule the only money which will be committed in June 2011 is the aid promised to players who have signed a NLI this year. All other players do not have assured money. Of course some schools have a policy to renew scholarships every year, and so perhaps between returning players and ones soon to sign a NLI, all 11.7 scholarships are taken. But in that case, the school can project a "not later than" date when money will be available. It could become available sooner if a player leaves or doesn't enter college. Since you haven't been told that date, I wonder just what "frees up" means. I suspect it has an elastic definition.

This school may be the best opportunity for your son. My advice is to assume that no scholarship will be awarded. Even assuming the complete sincerity of the coach, a lot can change in 2 years.

3finger

all scholarships are one year deals

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
3finger

all scholarships are one year deals

Everything I've heard officially says that is correct. Yet you hear about kids who are guaranteed 4 years. For example a low D1 head coach told a story about a kid who they made a commitment to that blew out his knee and never took the field for them. Yet they paid for his education until he got his degree in 4 years. Obviously that is a stand up program, but it makes you wonder how someone can get such a commitment in todays atmosphere that only allows 1 year at a time officially?

The bottom line question here is are they able to give some sort of written confirmation that even as a walk on he will be guaranteed a roster spot on the 35 man spring 2012 roster? I know they cant project out anything after then. They verbally stated that he would be on the 35 and that they feel he would definetly get a scholly in his sophomore year.

LtG2,
If he likes the school and the baseball program that would be good enough for me. I don't think you need or will get anything in writing. I'd still do some research on the coaches and their past history just to do your due diligence. That is about as close as you will get to a verbal commitment although they have given themselves some wiggle room by saying they "feel" he would definitely get a scholly as a sophmore. My guess is if he earns a scholarship he'll get a scholarship.

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Originally posted by Hawk19:

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You also have to differentiate between players who are walk-ons because they don't need a scholarship vs. players who are walk-ons because the program didn't think they were as good as the scholarship players.

At what point in the recruiting process do you admit that you don't need a scholarship? I could afford to send my son to school without any scholarship money but have felt that an offer would mean that they actually wanted him and intended to use him....I don't want him to end up sitting at the end of the bench because he was brought in because he was 'free'...

There are a lot of players out there that do not have scholarships because their parents can afford tuition. It doesn't mean tehy sit the bench.
This may be something you can discuss when an offer is made, however, understadn there is no NLI to protect your son during his first year in the program.

TRhit,
Yes, the term of all athletic scholarships is 1 year. The point I was trying to make is that there is a difference between a player signing a NLI and a returning player. A returning player can only be awarded aid whose term ends at the conclusion of the immediate next academic year. He can't be awarded aid which would be paid two years from date of the offer. Specifically, returning D1 players must be notified in June, and the award can only be for (roughly) the following September through May.

On the other hand, a player who signs an early NLI will be awarded aid which will start about 10 months after the NLI is agreed to, and which will run until about 18 months after the early signing date. Since I didn't find any other rule that applies, I speculate (but don't know) that a high school player could in principle be promised aid in writing for his sophomore year, if he receives no money his freshman year. As I posted above, I doubt that any school would actually make that commitment.

Vector,
15.3.3.1.2 Financial Aid Authority Precedent. A staff member may inform a prospective student-athlete that the athletics department will recommend to the financial aid authority that the prospective student-athlete’s financial aid be renewed each year for a period of four years and may indicate that the authority always has followed the athletics department’s recommendations in the past. However, the prospective student-athlete must be informed that the renewal will not be automatic. Some recruits hear "guaranteed 4 years", but what they are actually told is "that's what we've done in the past." If the stories I've heard are correct, recently some programs have not honored the announced tradition of carrying all players for 4 years.

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There are a lot of players out there that do not have scholarships because their parents can afford tuition. It doesn't mean tehy sit the bench.
This may be something you can discuss when an offer is made...

I understand that based on the fact that there are only 11.7 scholarships available that some players are not on scholarship. But I don't see why this would come up for discussion 'when an offer is made' since there is no reason the negotiate and it becomes a moot point.

My question is that in the same way baseball can get you into a better academic situation, can not needing scholarship money get you onto a better baseball situation?

Assuming that the player would be willing to take the chance, at what point do you volunteer the information that you would be willing to walk-on if you were guaranteed a roster position?

I'm not talking about a 'Rudy' situation here but rather a marginal player for the level of baseball played.

thats what we are trying to figure out. They have on scholly left that they are saving for a lefty, I can understand that. Do you thing that we can put this committment off until we see what out options are after Jupiter and not risk losing the roster spot?

LtG2 - you have a PM.