FWIW programs can only list and announce those who will receive athletic scholarships. PG and other organizations can.
Wasnt the ss drafted in the first round from ASU also PAC 12 all academic team? He made over a million dollars and maintained 3.5 or above.That kid sounds pretty smart,and now he has money as well.
Cant paint a large brush over any school,or reasons players decide to attend.
Cant paint a large brush over any school,or reasons players decide to attend.
One aspect of the HSBBW which attracted me for many years is the sharing of paths and routes demonstrating the realization and appreciation that opportunities in college and college baseball are available in many forms and dimensions.
Over a more recent period of time on the HSBBW, my impression is there seems to be a lesser amount of appreciation, or perhaps greater scrutiny, for the opportunities and paths to succeed as a student, athlete and student-athlete. The threads on LL vs travel and the like are an illustration but in a different vein.
Taking some of the current discussion, I have watched jemaz son play. He is darn good and competes as hard as anyone I watched in 2012. In my view, Stanford, with all their talent in 2012, might have been better with a player who "competed" with the same intensity.
I have never seen jemaz son in the classroom. Necessarily, I wouldn't have a thought, view or opinion on the "value" of his degree or what doors that degree may or may not open after college and after baseball as contrasted with a peer playing at Stanford or UCLA for instance.
Sometimes I think we as parents want to "plan" and "predict" too far into the future. This is by no means a criticism but an observation. When I talk to parents of 5 year old's, many are already into some elements of "panic" trying to get their child into the right elementary school to set up the right HS, to open the "right" college doors.
Baseball beyond HS has, in my opinion, NO guarantees. Academics beyond HS has no guarantees.
Having talked with many college coaches and now being a Father of one, someplace in the discussions there always seems to be a "provided" or an "if."
Whether our son's attend ASU,U of A, Stanford, UCLA, Clemson, a mid-level DI with top academics and gets players drafted, a mid-level DI of "lesser" recognition for each, or a Trinity University,all each student-athlete truly has is an opportunity. What they do with it and the level with which they compete on the field and in the classroom will, in my opinion, have far more impact on the end result than all of our careful parental planning focused on 'maximizing" an end result.
Very few of our sons have the academics and baseball talent at age 17-18 to get accepted to Stanford and even those who do don't all get admitted. In my view, neither those admitted or those denied admission is set for life after the next 3-8 years. The one admitted and the one not admitted and taking a differing route still must make the very best of every opportunity afforded. Nothing is guaranteed.
Over a more recent period of time on the HSBBW, my impression is there seems to be a lesser amount of appreciation, or perhaps greater scrutiny, for the opportunities and paths to succeed as a student, athlete and student-athlete. The threads on LL vs travel and the like are an illustration but in a different vein.
Taking some of the current discussion, I have watched jemaz son play. He is darn good and competes as hard as anyone I watched in 2012. In my view, Stanford, with all their talent in 2012, might have been better with a player who "competed" with the same intensity.
I have never seen jemaz son in the classroom. Necessarily, I wouldn't have a thought, view or opinion on the "value" of his degree or what doors that degree may or may not open after college and after baseball as contrasted with a peer playing at Stanford or UCLA for instance.
Sometimes I think we as parents want to "plan" and "predict" too far into the future. This is by no means a criticism but an observation. When I talk to parents of 5 year old's, many are already into some elements of "panic" trying to get their child into the right elementary school to set up the right HS, to open the "right" college doors.
Baseball beyond HS has, in my opinion, NO guarantees. Academics beyond HS has no guarantees.
Having talked with many college coaches and now being a Father of one, someplace in the discussions there always seems to be a "provided" or an "if."
Whether our son's attend ASU,U of A, Stanford, UCLA, Clemson, a mid-level DI with top academics and gets players drafted, a mid-level DI of "lesser" recognition for each, or a Trinity University,all each student-athlete truly has is an opportunity. What they do with it and the level with which they compete on the field and in the classroom will, in my opinion, have far more impact on the end result than all of our careful parental planning focused on 'maximizing" an end result.
Very few of our sons have the academics and baseball talent at age 17-18 to get accepted to Stanford and even those who do don't all get admitted. In my view, neither those admitted or those denied admission is set for life after the next 3-8 years. The one admitted and the one not admitted and taking a differing route still must make the very best of every opportunity afforded. Nothing is guaranteed.
quote:Very few of our sons have the academics and baseball talent at age 17-18 to get accepted to Stanford and even those who do don't all get admitted. In my view, neither those admitted or those denied admission is set for life after the next 3-8 years. The one admitted and the one not admitted and taking a differing route still must make the very best of every opportunity afforded. Nothing is guaranteed.
Great post and this quote summarizes the discussion in the tread well.No Guarantees.Great players fail in the academic arena,and many great players get beat out in their positions.Nothing is guaranteed.If you get money you are guaranteed a roster spot for ONE year.Players get monies decreased and increased.Eyes wide open!!
infielddad:
1. Thanks for the kind words.
2. What a truly amazing post that has great benefit for all who read it. Thanks even more for those words of wisdom. I wish I had said it myself; it is indeed what I intended to convey.
1. Thanks for the kind words.
2. What a truly amazing post that has great benefit for all who read it. Thanks even more for those words of wisdom. I wish I had said it myself; it is indeed what I intended to convey.
quote:Originally posted by TPM:
How can a player that didn't make the team last year be playing in Cape Cod?
Good question TPM, my thoughts exactly. Something is fishy here.
He was a walk on. Not from last years class. None of the 2012's made it. That is what the coaches told us.
justbaseball: Technically, you are right. But the mechanics of this are not necessarily right. Some players will be given, lets say, 100% in first year but 0% afterwards, by agreement ahead of time. Effectively works out to an average of 25% (or 33% if he is drafted and signs after 3 years).
This is done sometimes so that coaches can balance out later recruiting class allocations. More money available some years than others.
____________________________
The verbal with our son is also based on an average percentage. It may be a little different each year, but it will balance to __%. That way they have some leeway with each class, but we still feel he received a very good offer.
____________________
Calisportsfan-
As a parent I also agree it is important to look at retention and rate of graduation of players in the BB program. However, I do think we need to remember that in schools where student athletes are drafted more often after their junior year, that graduation percentage could be lower and not representative of the true story. TPM mentioned her son has 3 years at Clemson.( By the way, Clemson is a very good academic institution and has a top agricultural and engineering program. I'm sure it has other excellent programs as well.) When his BB is behind him he very likely will get that degree. I am sure it would be very easy to take students who were drafted their junior year out of the statistical mix to obtain a more representative % for student retention and obtaining a diploma.
I am sure ASU is an excellent academic institution, as well as most other universities in the state university system. There are not only honors schools, but also honors programs within departments for students who have proven they thrive on academics. As a parent of another son who is very bright but not a gifted athlete, this is a sensitive subject. My other son, an AP Scholar with Distinction and Academic Scholar, is attending one of those programs. It is what you put into it that counts. The UF's, FSU's, ASU's, Clemsons,and UT's of the world have produced a number of notable national leaders. I think the Dukes, Vanderbilts, and Stanfords of academics would absolutely agree.
This is done sometimes so that coaches can balance out later recruiting class allocations. More money available some years than others.
____________________________
The verbal with our son is also based on an average percentage. It may be a little different each year, but it will balance to __%. That way they have some leeway with each class, but we still feel he received a very good offer.
____________________
Calisportsfan-
As a parent I also agree it is important to look at retention and rate of graduation of players in the BB program. However, I do think we need to remember that in schools where student athletes are drafted more often after their junior year, that graduation percentage could be lower and not representative of the true story. TPM mentioned her son has 3 years at Clemson.( By the way, Clemson is a very good academic institution and has a top agricultural and engineering program. I'm sure it has other excellent programs as well.) When his BB is behind him he very likely will get that degree. I am sure it would be very easy to take students who were drafted their junior year out of the statistical mix to obtain a more representative % for student retention and obtaining a diploma.
I am sure ASU is an excellent academic institution, as well as most other universities in the state university system. There are not only honors schools, but also honors programs within departments for students who have proven they thrive on academics. As a parent of another son who is very bright but not a gifted athlete, this is a sensitive subject. My other son, an AP Scholar with Distinction and Academic Scholar, is attending one of those programs. It is what you put into it that counts. The UF's, FSU's, ASU's, Clemsons,and UT's of the world have produced a number of notable national leaders. I think the Dukes, Vanderbilts, and Stanfords of academics would absolutely agree.
quote:Originally posted by infielddad:
Sometimes I think we as parents want to "plan" and "predict" too far into the future. This is by no means a criticism but an observation. When I talk to parents of 5 year old's, many are already into some elements of "panic" trying to get their child into the right elementary school to set up the right HS, to open the "right" college doors.
Baseball beyond HS has, in my opinion, NO guarantees. Academics beyond HS has no guarantees.
Having talked with many college coaches and now being a Father of one, someplace in the discussions there always seems to be a "provided" or an "if."
Whether our son's attend ASU,U of A, Stanford, UCLA, Clemson, a mid-level DI with top academics and gets players drafted, a mid-level DI of "lesser" recognition for each, or a Trinity University,all each student-athlete truly has is an opportunity. What they do with it and the level with which they compete on the field and in the classroom will, in my opinion, have far more impact on the end result than all of our careful parental planning focused on 'maximizing" an end result.
Very few of our sons have the academics and baseball talent at age 17-18 to get accepted to Stanford and even those who do don't all get admitted. In my view, neither those admitted or those denied admission is set for life after the next 3-8 years. The one admitted and the one not admitted and taking a differing route still must make the very best of every opportunity afforded. Nothing is guaranteed.
Great Stuff IFDad! Thanks. I was guilty of looking too much in the future during my son's pre-HS years and this site helped me understand the process. We are just glad he is seems settling in at his college and just looking forward to Family weekend and meet all the baseball parents. At this point, the only one who can control his destiny is himself.
Was really proud he did his first laundry!
quote:Originally posted by Swampboy:
Doughnutman,
I wrote the following last year and some people found it helpful. I'm pasting/re-posting to address your question:
--------------------------------------
.
Even the best walk-on situation is an invitation to a precarious baseball existence where the odds are against his ever making a meaningful contribution to the team.
It takes a special situation and a special player to make it work.
I recommend you assess both very carefully.
Step One: Assess the Situation.
Find out if he will be treated exactly like the scholarship players from the first day he arrives on campus.
At my son's school, there are preferred walk-ons whose status is indistinguishable from that of the scholarship athletes. They are so integrated into all aspects of team life that no one knows they are walk-ons unless they volunteer the information, which no one ever asks them to do.
Find out if the "guarantee" means your son will:
--Have the same conditioning and workout opportunities (group conditioning sessions, assigned locker, laundry service, after-hours facility access) as the scholarship players if he attends summer school with them;
--Have the same conditioning and workout opportunities in the weeks between the beginning of school and the beginning of official practice (this matters a lot because the players' concept of who is really on the team is solidified long before practices officially begin based on who is up early and working hard;
--Live in the same housing as the freshman scholarship players (this depends on your school: some coaches have control over a certain number of room assignments in preferred dorms; some coaches have no say in the matter at all);
--Receive the same academic support (services from team academic advisor, registration priority, free tutoring, etc.);
--Be exempted from the open tryout attended by the un-recruited walk-ons.
If all of the above are true, your son may assume he will be given a legitimate opportunity to prove himself.
Step Two: Assess the Suitability of the Player to Succeed as a Walk-on.
If the situation is promising, you can assess the player.
All walk-ons must confront two facts up front.
Fact #1: The coach's livelihood depends on his ability to evaluate talent.
Fact #2: The coach's initial assessment is that the walk-on has less potential than the scholarship athletes.
These facts are reality, and they will not go away.
For most players, the coach's assessment is correct and will be proven so by hard experience.
For a small minority, the coach's assessment is incorrect; however, recognition of these facts will eventually become a source of discouragement and doubt. These players should not become walk-ons.
For a tiny, tiny minority, the coach's assessment is incorrect, and the player's cast of character is such that the hard facts will become a wellspring of motivation and determination.
To assess your son's suitability for a walk-on spot, ask the following hard questions:
--Does your son have an informed basis for believing the coach's assessment is wrong and he really can compete alongside the scholarship players? Is it plausible?
--How good is your son at walking a hard path by himself?
--Is your son is the sort of young man who is driven to prove doubters wrong? When has he done it in the past? How often in life has he surged from the back of the pack to prevail in the end? Did he glide through youth ball on superior talent, or does he have a track record of outworking the competition and surprising his coaches?
--How hot does the fire burn within him? Does it still burn in the face of adversity? How often have others described your son as relentless, determined, passionate, or persistent?
--What's his track record in the matter of choosing friends? Does he naturally gravitate toward those with high goals and outstanding work habits, or does he choose friends mostly who are fun to hang out with?
If the situation is right and the player is right, it MIGHT not be totally reckless to accept the offer.
Best wishes.
Good post. I had posted a similar senario in the recruiting forum.
Swampboy, thanks for sharing this info.
My son plays at UofA and lives with five other baseball players not all of them are on scholarship, a few are invited walk on's.
my observations:
1. Everyone on the roster is treated equally
2. The best players play (regardless of scholi amount)
3. The coaches each year built players up. If your son is still growing, still learning, advancing he may become someone special.
4. The instate tuition at the AZ schools is cheaper than in Cali for sure
5. Game/ scrimmage/ practice performance decides who gets on the field, period.
my observations:
1. Everyone on the roster is treated equally
2. The best players play (regardless of scholi amount)
3. The coaches each year built players up. If your son is still growing, still learning, advancing he may become someone special.
4. The instate tuition at the AZ schools is cheaper than in Cali for sure
5. Game/ scrimmage/ practice performance decides who gets on the field, period.
quote:Originally posted by azbbfan:
My son plays at UofA and lives with five other baseball players not all of them are on scholarship, a few are invited walk on's.
my observations:
1. Everyone on the roster is treated equally
2. The best players play (regardless of scholi amount)
3. The coaches each year built players up. If your son is still growing, still learning, advancing he may become someone special.
4. The instate tuition at the AZ schools is cheaper than in Cali for sure
5. Game/ scrimmage/ practice performance decides who gets on the field, period.
Great post that makes a great point! If you can play and if you can prove it on the field, you will get a chance even in the most competitive programs.
The main issue is that is is tough for anyone to get into the lineup in these programs, regardless of the money they receive. The competition is always intense.
I was on both ASU's website and U of A's site. ASU has only 37 kids on the fall roster and U of A has 53 kids on the roster.
That is a huge difference. Pretty interesting info for us guys trying to make a choice about being a preferred walk on.
That is a huge difference. Pretty interesting info for us guys trying to make a choice about being a preferred walk on.
Coach Lopez said he could have had 75 easily.
Truthfully...competition is the name of the game post high school. Our kids will virtually never have a moment that someone does not want their spot or vice versa.
So 37 or 53 ...its all the same
Truthfully...competition is the name of the game post high school. Our kids will virtually never have a moment that someone does not want their spot or vice versa.
So 37 or 53 ...its all the same
some young men want to wear
'that" uniform
'that" uniform
quote:Originally posted by azbbfan:
Coach Lopez said he could have had 75 easily.
Truthfully...competition is the name of the game post high school. Our kids will virtually never have a moment that someone does not want their spot or vice versa.
So 37 or 53 ...its all the same
Absolutely!
quote:Originally posted by azbbfan:
Coach Lopez said he could have had 75 easily.
Truthfully...competition is the name of the game post high school. Our kids will virtually never have a moment that someone does not want their spot or vice versa.
So 37 or 53 ...its all the same
I differ depending on what the "recruited" players are told in advance.
If a coach basically tells kids they have no guaranteed spot and could wash out in the fall, that is one thing.
However some coaches know if they are up front like that, they might lose out on some players who could help the program, and will go elsewhere.
A few programs have gotten a bad reputation for telling the kids they have a slot, only to find 50+ kids competing for 35 spots. When those kids made the commitment to go there under false pretenses, and then don't get a spot, it is wrong no matter how you slice it.
`
quote:Originally posted by Vector:quote:Originally posted by azbbfan:
Coach Lopez said he could have had 75 easily.
Truthfully...competition is the name of the game post high school. Our kids will virtually never have a moment that someone does not want their spot or vice versa.
So 37 or 53 ...its all the same
I differ depending on what the "recruited" players are told in advance.
If a coach basically tells kids they have no guaranteed spot and could wash out in the fall, that is one thing.
However some coaches know if they are up front like that, they might lose out on some players who could help the program, and will go elsewhere.
A few programs have gotten a bad reputation for telling the kids they have a slot, only to find 50+ kids competing for 35 spots. When those kids made the commitment to go there under false pretenses, and then don't get a spot, it is wrong no matter how you slice it.
`
I guarantee you that Andy Lopez has made no false promises. I cannot guarantee that some of these players have not heard just what they want to hear. Nonetheless, I would be amazed if any of them do not have a pretty good idea of that they will be going up against.
quote:Originally posted by Vector:
A few programs have gotten a bad reputation for telling the kids they have a slot, only to find 50+ kids competing for 35 spots. When those kids made the commitment to go there under false pretenses, and then don't get a spot, it is wrong no matter how you slice it.
`
Repeat after me: "Trust, but verify."
A few well-placed conversations with current and recent players and their families about critically important expectations created by the coaches as they recruit can almost always validate...or invalidate...the coaches' assertions.
It's not as though coaching staffs wake up one morning and say, "You know, I think I'll start telling 50 recruits that they all have a guaranteed roster spot." There are virtually always well-established patterns for coaches' behaviors...good and bad.
With the exception of scholarship amounts (which tend to be viewed as personal information), do not be bashful about discussing important elements with current/recent players and parents.
quote:A few well-placed conversations with current and recent players and their families about critically important expectations created by the coaches as they recruit can almost always validate...or invalidate...the coaches' assertions.
So how do you find these peoples phone numbers and how do you get them to talk to you? I would think the players that made the team would have one version and the other 20 that were cut might have another version.
Doughnutman:
You don't need to find these people, although it would not be difficult since you undoubtedly know many of them. Brock is a very talented ballplayer and under the right circumstances could do very well at ASU or UofA. But, as you know, there are no guarantees. The only way to find out for sure is to give it a shot, but there is risk to that because there are more talented players on hand than will be able to earn a meaningful opportunity. That is the intense competition part.
I could give you a long list of really good players for whom it did not work out at ASU or UofA. I'm sure you could come up with a similar list yourself. I could also give you a list of guys who flourished at both places and then went on to things they never imagined.
No doubt (and like other very good players), Brock would probably have an easier path at many (most) other schools. I have always believed it is worth taking the shot, but every individual has to make his own decision. Just be prepared to deal with the results either way.
You don't need to find these people, although it would not be difficult since you undoubtedly know many of them. Brock is a very talented ballplayer and under the right circumstances could do very well at ASU or UofA. But, as you know, there are no guarantees. The only way to find out for sure is to give it a shot, but there is risk to that because there are more talented players on hand than will be able to earn a meaningful opportunity. That is the intense competition part.
I could give you a long list of really good players for whom it did not work out at ASU or UofA. I'm sure you could come up with a similar list yourself. I could also give you a list of guys who flourished at both places and then went on to things they never imagined.
No doubt (and like other very good players), Brock would probably have an easier path at many (most) other schools. I have always believed it is worth taking the shot, but every individual has to make his own decision. Just be prepared to deal with the results either way.
Jemaz,
Thanks for the kind words. I know I can find the kids and families, Brock has played with a lot of them and has their cell numbers. I was thinking more about people that don't have local connections. Like if we were looking at a school in Cali or Texas or New Jersey. It would be a lot tougher to find out that info for an out of state school.
Thanks for the kind words. I know I can find the kids and families, Brock has played with a lot of them and has their cell numbers. I was thinking more about people that don't have local connections. Like if we were looking at a school in Cali or Texas or New Jersey. It would be a lot tougher to find out that info for an out of state school.
On a side note, I noticed on the U of A scrimmage last week that only about 20 kids or less played. I wonder if that is a sign of things to come for the kids who didn't get an at bat or inning pitched. I wonder if that is the beginning of the weeding out process. I hope it wasn't.
There are several ways to go about it. The most natural is for the player to have the conversations with current players as he gets to know the programs that seem the most interested in him. For example, he goes on an unofficial visit. While spending some downtime with several players, he says, "Tell me about fall baseball. What's it like? How many show up the first day? Of those who show up, how many would you say were told by a coach that he was guaranteed a spot? Of those who were told that, how many would you say actually saw that happen?" Then, just let them talk.
An additional approach is to ask the coach to name two or three current or recent players who have been told the same thing. Then, recruit makes a point of meeting or getting in touch with the players named. If the opportunity isn't going to present itself in face-to-face conversations, ask the coach the follow-on question of how to go about getting in touch with them.
My son employed both approaches in combination. The coach created a significant expectation; and, in that case, he volunteered the names of a couple of players on his roster who'd seen that expectation fulfilled.
Yes, you'll hear various descriptions as you talk with individuals; but, we found that the vast majority of players spoke candidly in the right setting.
Yes, you'll also have to employ some judgment. However, in my opinion, the most critical expectations created by coaches during the recruiting process need to be explored... as a natural part of the process.
An additional approach is to ask the coach to name two or three current or recent players who have been told the same thing. Then, recruit makes a point of meeting or getting in touch with the players named. If the opportunity isn't going to present itself in face-to-face conversations, ask the coach the follow-on question of how to go about getting in touch with them.
My son employed both approaches in combination. The coach created a significant expectation; and, in that case, he volunteered the names of a couple of players on his roster who'd seen that expectation fulfilled.
Yes, you'll hear various descriptions as you talk with individuals; but, we found that the vast majority of players spoke candidly in the right setting.
Yes, you'll also have to employ some judgment. However, in my opinion, the most critical expectations created by coaches during the recruiting process need to be explored... as a natural part of the process.
quote:Originally posted by Doughnutman:
On a side note, I noticed on the U of A scrimmage last week that only about 20 kids or less played. I wonder if that is a sign of things to come for the kids who didn't get an at bat or inning pitched. I wonder if that is the beginning of the weeding out process. I hope it wasn't.
My sons junior year he didn't do scrimmages because he pitched that summer and he was basically shut down. This came after a long season with a trip to Omaha. This most likely is the case at many college programs in fall.
I think that you need to stop trying to read the tea leaves and stop focusing on the negative.
Your player has to make a decision based upon his gut feeling and feel good about it. If things don't work out, which they do sometimes, you have learned what or what not to do the next time, or able to share your experiences here.
all the kids participate in the scrimmages. However they scrimmage like four days a week, typically they do two a week.
let me give you one example of a preferred walk on:
Scott kingery from Mountain pointe high school. Scott was set to go to Central Arizona, instead he chose to walk on at UofA, he's tearing it up, and will most assuredly make the squad. However, if he wasn't he can still go back to Central, nothing really lost.
Brock will do fine, but it is certainly competitive at every top d1.
let me give you one example of a preferred walk on:
Scott kingery from Mountain pointe high school. Scott was set to go to Central Arizona, instead he chose to walk on at UofA, he's tearing it up, and will most assuredly make the squad. However, if he wasn't he can still go back to Central, nothing really lost.
Brock will do fine, but it is certainly competitive at every top d1.
