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So what do you guys think about a preferred walk on/guaranteed roster spot offer.  My son was contacted by dream school in major conference and told they really want him, and they could guarantee a spot, but they would not know if they could provide any scholarship offer at this time based on offers currently pending.  This school tends to offer a significant amount to pitchers, and my kid is a position player.  I was told by a recent graduate from this school that preferred walk ons in this circumstance are treated very well, and that only a few are ever given such an offer.  My son has been given offers at top academic schools, (that are not in major conferences), and good baseball schools with poor academics, but nothing that fits both criteria.  What does the brain trust think?.    

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Nothing is ever guaranteed.  Could be a great situation or could be a nightmare.  It will all depend on what they think "after" your son is on campus.  What if "after" he is on campus, they tell him, "I guarantee you will never play here".  Would your son want to stay there after hearing that? Or what happens If they tell your son they think he needs to go to a certain JC so that he can develop his skills.   

 

I'm not trying to put a damper on this, it could work out great.  Every school has some walk-ons. But the only sure thing about baseball is that there are no sure things. If you feel the coach/recruiter is someone you can trust and he is being totally honest, go for it.  But always know that people can and do change their mind. Truth is, it is all up to your son and his confidence in proving himself to the coaching staff.  There are student/athletes with good scholarships that get asked to transfer... Told they will never play at the college.  No one wants to stay where they are no longer wanted.

PG posted something very important in another topic about schools knowing about what other offers one may or may not have and from who
Seems like your sons dream school must know his situation.  Sorry if they wanted him badly enough they would make some type of offer.

If they want him so badly where were they all summer? In what capacity do they want him, as a catcher for games or in the bullpen? 

Definetly a no brainer go to where you are really wanted.
If it is any of the larger programs from your state chances are they have a
stud catcher and one waiting in the wings. Could be a few seasons before he got some serious if any play time.  Check rosters and ask how many other catchers will walk on.
Last edited by TPM
The decision is up to your son but make sure he really understands that he is an after thought to others. If he is ok with that than go for it.  Not all walk ons are because there is no money left.  I know of players that were walk ons but gave up their money because they could afford to attend with no scholarship dollars recruited seriously by the coaching staff.   Doesn't seem to be the case here.

My son was in the exact same situation.  His dream school.  This school called him often saying they really want him - but they have no money.  (Even though we knew of offers being given/turned down by others, etc.)  We were wary of going to a school with no NLI.  What if the coaching staff changes?  What if they don't keep their word?  We felt it was too risky to choose a school (out of state at that) to play ball on a handshake.  A proud moment for me was when my son actually told the coach that on one of his phone calls.

Aleebaba,

 

I'll defer to swampboys post #13 in this other thread that you started.  I truly believe this is fantastic advice in the context it was given and in general:  Cudos to swampboy.   http://community.hsbaseballweb...est-academic-college-

 

"The fact of the matter is that the overwhelming majority of baseball players who head off to college do not get the experience they think they signed up for.  Transfers and injuries and bench time and cuts and academic pressure and other disappointments are the norm--and that doesn't even count what opposing teams do to you. This rule applies to all divisions and all conferences (just ask the young men with plausible D1 aspirations who enroll at D3's, only to encounter 50-60 players on the fall roster and find themselves on the bench, if they're lucky). 

 

High academic schools do not offer a refuge from this reality.  For example, look at Harvard. Harvard has a GSR of 100% for the latest reporting period.  There were eleven freshmen on the roster in 2010.  Three of those eleven were still on the roster as seniors in 2013.  Maybe all of the others were still in school nailing down their degrees.  Or maybe 3 divided by 11 doesn't equal 100%.  I'm not picking on Harvard.  Do your own check on other schools.

 

Any player who aspires to play college baseball anywhere needs to plan on bouncing back from major adversity somewhere along the line, regardless of where he goes to school.  Personally, I think it's great preparation for adult life, and so I am willing to encourage young men to embrace the challenge.  But that's just my opinion."

 

The last part of this passage is the most important part in my opinion because it almost always true.  There will be major adversity at some time, and possibly more than one adverse event..  Folks have different opinions about selecting a school and baseball programs based on their goals, experiences and situations. I think if you go into this eyes wide open with a best case/worst case analysis, and if the worst case is workable then I think you need to consider this option.  If the worst case is not palatable then I think you need to consider other options.  JMO

 

Good luck and let us know!

 

 

 

This is a consequence of the NCAA's institution of the 25% minimum rule a few years back.

 

Previously, a school could lock down a player for as little as "book money".  The NCAA didn't like players being taken off the market for small amounts, and stated that it thought the rule change was for players' benefit.  But the problem is, if you don't command 25%, you end up with nothing.  Even with "book money", you would be a "counter", i.e., someone the NCAA would count towards the program's maximum roster size of 35.  When cutting you wouldn't help the program get under the ceiling, your odds of being on the spring roster were pretty close to 100%, excepting only if the coaches concluded during the fall that you were a problem kid. 

 

But when you have zero money, now you are not automatically a "counter", so you can be cut.  And no matter what someone promises you orally, things can change.  Some people don't keep their word.  Sometimes coaches are fired and replaced.  Some times a guy meant to keep his word but later finds himself in a predicament he didn't anticipate and his only out is to cut you.

 

So, there are risks.  The best bet is to post a request for information -- ask people here to send you private messages about experiences at the school and whether this coach has a track record that engenders trust, or whether perhaps others have been led down the primrose path this way. 

 

There is one other factor.  Suppose this is a school where your son could not pass admissions on his own, but he could with the coach's help.  That may be enough to sway your decision.  That uses baseball to get an opportunity you wouldn't otherwise have had.  Even if he does get cut from the team (and there's no saying he will be, as pretty much every team has 8 or more walk-ons), that wouldn't result in him losing his place as a student.  For many, this is enough to seal a deal.  Whether it is enough for your son, only you and he can decide. 

Thanks for the posts.  We have direct relationships with players that just left the program, and my son's hitting coach is best friends with one of their coaches and they both say offer is legit and program honors these commitments. 

 

PG, Fenway and TPM make good points about being able to accept the downside, but from reading you guys it seems like the downside is possible anywhere you go.  If they don't like you, playing time is unlikely anywhere.  It is of course tougher in some schools than others though.

 

Now, one of the key issues seems to be that my son is not as highly thought of us maybe some other recruits, and the "go where you are loved" rule would most likely lead you elsewhere, (and there are schools that have shown him that love).  However, my son, like many others in his spot, still dreams of MLB, and trying to stack up against the best.  You and I know that it is a 1 in a 1000 chance, but he is 17.  Because he has aspirations of playing ball beyond college, one advantage is he would compete against tougher competition and see if he stacks up.  If he can't make the lineup eventually given all the teaching tools they have, then he obviously would not be a good pro and can focus more on studies.  It would be a more miserable experience though than playing somewhere that you can contribute, but you would get the ultimate feedback you need to move on.  Just a thought.   

 

For a kid that is interested in playing baseball, especially past the college level, I think its very important to find a coach that has a vision of your son contributing, rather then a coach who is willing to see if he'll "stick".  Other then getting cut, the next worst thing is being strung along for several years while sitting on the bench.  For many its better to play for a team ranked 150th in the nation then to sit on the bench for #1.  Its a tough call.

 

With respect to schools  "academics" its more about your son's efforts and interests then the schools academic ranking.  i.e. your son might get into UCLA as a geology major with the coaches help or get into UCD as an engineering major....

Aleebaba,

 

Our son was also offered a "fall roster spot" with the chance to make the spring roster at a big highly ranked in state school.  Our son has decided to pass even though the cost would be lower and he would be closer to home than where he is being offered academic and baseball money.  The reason is, he wants to PLAY for four more years.  We know that he is not one of those players that will end up in the MLB someday; he is going to live off of his degree.  He would love to tell his friends that he went D1 and he would like to be close to home, but most of all, he wants to PLAY.  He has two more visits to make and will sign/commit to the coach who loves him the most (two more D2 schools and one very competitive D3 to visit).  That is just my two cents....

Originally Posted by CollegeParentNoMore:

For a kid that is interested in playing baseball, especially past the college level, I think its very important to find a coach that has a vision of your son contributing, rather then a coach who is willing to see if he'll "stick".  Other then getting cut, the next worst thing is being strung along for several years while sitting on the bench.  For many its better to play for a team ranked 150th in the nation then to sit on the bench for #1.  Its a tough call.

 

With respect to schools  "academics" its more about your son's efforts and interests then the schools academic ranking.  i.e. your son might get into UCLA as a geology major with the coaches help or get into UCD as an engineering major....

Good points. 

 

Another way to potentially split the baby on this issue is to perhaps consider "playing" at a lower-ranked school that happens to be googled-eyed over your son and oh btw, the lower-ranked school routinely plays the big boys  

 

You see this situation play itself out all over college baseball.  Using just the Virginia, North Carolina, and South Carolina region of the country, where teams can play (even midweek) with only an hour or two bus ride, there are lessor-ranked schools in this region that routinely play the likes of Clemson, South Carolina, North Carolina, UVA, NC State, etc.  Thus, a player can still get exposure to the pro scouts even though they may not be at their "dream" school.  Moreover, if the player can manage to get into a fine summer league in their respective regions (e.g., Coastal Plains or Valley League for mid-Atlantic states), they can also get additional pro exposure (often to the same scouts) playing against top competition.

 

You must "play" in front of the pro scouts to get drafted.  They must see you play.  Sitting on the bench at LSU will not satisfy that requirement although it might be cool to tell your friends you are on LSU's baseball team. 

 

You'll almost never see a pro scout at a game between Lower Ranked State and Ranked Lower University but you very likely and often can see a game between Low Ranked State and Clemson where the likelihood of seeing a pro scout goes up greatly.    

CD, I agree 1,000% with your comments on playing as well as the importance of exposure and playing in Summer Wood bat leagues.

Where I might vary a bit would be on scouting.  If I understand correctly, Aleebaba and his son are from Texas.  I have a pretty good guess which University he is referencing.  One thing I have posted about the I-35 corridor before is there are more scouts in that section of the Country than just about anyplace else. When our son was drafted, the scout who followed him had 6 players picked by one team in the first 25 rounds, and all were from that one corridor.  As we both know, there is one D3 at the end of the I35 corridor which gets plenty of scouts to their games and more than a few who get drafted.

With that said, being very well coached, grinding and playing are, for me, the most important factors if MLB is a dream.  I am not sure MLB as the dream would be an important criteria on accepting a recruited walk-on slot compared with the quality of coaching, opportunity to play and improve, opportunity for a quality Summer placement and making a personal(quality and realistic)  judgment about whether the player can compete and succeed at that program and is willing to grind to do it.

2 follow-up points:

 

Don't make the mistake of thinking that your odds of getting drafted are better at one school vs. another.  There are plenty of MLB players from schools that you may never see in Omaha.  The much-ballyhooed Stephen Strasburg pitched at a mid-major program.  He was not regarded as the biggest prospect coming out of HS, but he got on the field and therefore had a chance to work his way up the ladder.  And I can assure you, by the end there were plenty of pro scouts hanging around when Friday night rolled around, I don't care who the opponent was.  We saw a similar phenomenon in VA some years back with Verlander at ODU.  I would hazard to guess that the odds of making MLB are the greatest at the school where you have the best chance to play either every day (offensive player), or to pitch in the weekend rotation.

 

Second, if you feel your son is still looking at this starry-eyed, 17 is not too young for you to tell him to snap out of it and start making decisions like an adult.  Yes, kids have always done this.  Time was when parents would always make them stop doing it, if only for their own good.  For some reason, in the last decade or so, parents seem more willing to indulge the prolonged adolescence.  Your son would profit from your taking the more old-school approach.

Originally Posted by Aleebaba:

Because he has aspirations of playing ball beyond college, one advantage is he would compete against tougher competition and see if he stacks up.  If he can't make the lineup eventually given all the teaching tools they have, then he obviously would not be a good pro and can focus more on studies.  

 

If going pro is a major factor in his school decision, he should go where he will get the reps and experience to develop his game to the point that he can become a pro.  If he wants to keep playing after college, make sure he plays during college:  a small tradeoff in quality of competition that maximizes the chance of playing every day could be prudent.  

Very good posts by all and especially from Midlo and Swampboy, CD, infielddad and PG.

 

Regardless of the outcome, this all takes a whole lot of thought behind the decision to play for a Big D1 program. My son played for a top ranked D1, so I am giving my point of view from that perspective.  As someone said here once, be very careful what you wish for.

 

I said this once and will say it again, I was standing with a group of scouts, agent and D1 coaches as well as a former ML player. They all somewhat agreed that walk ons are seen as fill ins when the scholarship guys get hurt.  That was a few years ago, I am not sure that philosophy has changed!

 

My sons own recruiting experience, his dream school paid no attention to him until August of his senior year. He played often on their field throughout his HS travel ball, but didn't receive a call until mid August asking if he would like to come to an unofficial to meet the staff.  He asked, "where have you guys been" and "sorry I have had some real interest from others for a very long time and my visits are set up".  he was angry.  Even after a small offer he kept calm and said no thank you. He realized that someone else said no.  I am sure he would have been fine, and been in the local news a lot, but his choice was based upon the love he felt from those that had taken the time to seek him out earlier.

 

Sometimes I admit its not what you know but who, but in your sons case, is the interest really there for skill and talent or is it because of a friendship?

 

Study some milb rosters, not all players come from top ranked college programs, in fact most top prospects don't even go to college.  College will help a player to be a better player because he has life experience skills that will help in survival if not a top drafted player. It doesn't necessarily make one a more skilled player even by attending the best college programs in baseball.

 

Don't ever give up the dream but IMO don't ever compromise your education!  Playing time is essential for development but keep in mind that not all players (especially position guys) show off ML potential and tools needed to get drafted.  It is also very hard to have it both ways (a good baseball program and a good education), the player has to decide and accept what is most important.

 

Just like families all programs (and levels) have issues. One word of caution, former players will never speak badly of their former programs, they just don't do it, even among friends.   

This is a great topic...seems to come up every year at this time and justifiably so.

 

My son was in the exact same circumstance as a 2012.  Numerous offers with $.  Numerous academic school "offers".  And the preferred walk on / roster spot offers at the major conference "dream" schools closer to home.  It's a very challenging thing for the player and the parents for sure.  The advice flowing here is what makes this site so great!

 

Just one data point which is my son's:  The advice he ultimately followed, which he heard repeatedly on this site, was to go where he was loved.  Without getting into the details of a very rocky freshman year (injury, social issues, academic challenges, etc.), his college administration and coaching staff stood by him.  The coaches also ensured his placement in a top summer collegiate league this past Summer.  My sense is if he had these issues elsewhere, like some of his peers from home, he would've transferred already.  But his coaches (and teachers and administration) are standing by him.

 

He is starting his soph year a much more mature and focused student-athlete, with the continued opportunity to make a great impact on the team.  Just iterated with him today about some positive academic results and his summer placement in the Coastal Plains league.  His team is an "academic" school...opening at Mississippi State in February...yikes!

 

We are thankful for the advice to "go where you are loved...not where they are just interested".  This has advice has been a blessing for us. 

 

Best of luck to your son and family.

 

 

Originally Posted by Branson Baseball:

This is a great topic...seems to come up every year at this time and justifiably so.

 

My son was in the exact same circumstance as a 2012.  Numerous offers with $.  Numerous academic school "offers".  And the preferred walk on / roster spot offers at the major conference "dream" schools closer to home.  It's a very challenging thing for the player and the parents for sure.  The advice flowing here is what makes this site so great!

 

Just one data point which is my son's:  The advice he ultimately followed, which he heard repeatedly on this site, was to go where he was loved.  Without getting into the details of a very rocky freshman year (injury, social issues, academic challenges, etc.), his college administration and coaching staff stood by him.  The coaches also ensured his placement in a top summer collegiate league this past Summer.  My sense is if he had these issues elsewhere, like some of his peers from home, he would've transferred already.  But his coaches (and teachers and administration) are standing by him.

 

He is starting his soph year a much more mature and focused student-athlete, with the continued opportunity to make a great impact on the team.  Just iterated with him today about some positive academic results and his summer placement in the Coastal Plains league.  His team is an "academic" school...opening at Mississippi State in February...yikes!

 

We are thankful for the advice to "go where you are loved...not where they are just interested".  This has advice has been a blessing for us. 

 

Best of luck to your son and family.

 

 

Great post and classic hsbbweb story.  That's why I love this site.

infielddad - totally agree with your take as well.

 

At the end of the day, the message board cannot make the decision.  If your son is adamant about throwing his hat into a big time powerhouse, and goes into it with his eyes wide open knowing the consequences, then more power to him.  Being in a program like that will force him to raise the level of his own play.  None of us can predict the future.  With high risk comes high reward.  

We went to school today.  Facilities and support at these places are amazing.  They recruited son hard, and he met everyone.  The head coach said that son would be on the team, but he could not promise playing time to anyone, because the best play, period.  He said that If he had dreams to play MLB, like most boys that come there do, you better get used to competing against and with the best.  Very good argument.  Going to be hard to pass opportunity up.   

FYI,  good coaches don't ever promise playing time to anyone, rather opportunities.  The problem with this for walk on players (even invited ones), is that usually the opportunities go the scholarship players.  

 

Most people, you and your son included, have absolutely no idea how hard it is to play college ball as well as going onto the next level. You will understand that after your sons first year.  You will also understand how important it is to make them understand that playing beyond college is just the icing on the cake, how important it is to be a student before being an athlete.

 

Once again, it is the player that moves himself forward in this game not the program he attends. My son was very lucky to have a coach who pressed buttons bigtime when son hit downtime. They were giving him a good opportunity and his pc  believed 100% in him, that is sometimes very hard to find because the next year a whole new crop of players show up to take his place.  If you don't have people and a support system who really believe in you and did from the beginning, you could find yourself in big trouble when times get tough (and they are going to be).

 

Originally Posted by Aleebaba:

We went to school today.  Facilities and support at these places are amazing.  They recruited son hard, and he met everyone.  The head coach said that son would be on the team, but he could not promise playing time to anyone, because the best play, period.  He said that If he had dreams to play MLB, like most boys that come there do, you better get used to competing against and with the best.  Very good argument.  Going to be hard to pass opportunity up.   

Good luck, I am sure the Board will be eager to follow the player's progress. His predisposition to move in this direction was evident a couple of days ago in the thread. Seems head and heart are aligned.

 

Coach had the right answer for the player's MLB dream thing...with the coach's objective, at least, in mind.

 

Seems now, a lot of high academic dominoes will fall, once this player is off the market.

Originally Posted by TPM:

My son was very lucky to have a coach who pressed buttons bigtime when son hit downtime. They were giving him a good opportunity and his pc  believed 100% in him, that is sometimes very hard to find because the next year a whole new crop of players show up to take his place.  If you don't have people and a support system who really believe in you and did from the beginning, you could find yourself in big trouble when times get tough (and they are going to be).

 

That's a great point.  Goes directly with the rule, "go where you are loved."  I am assuming that some programs do not fit that criteria for anybody in the program.  Assistant coaches may have there "favorites" and lobby for them, but head coach is under lots of pressure to win.  It is definitely tougher.  I assume that is why a lot of kids transfer.  Eyes wide open. 

Aleebaba,

 

It is great to see that your son (and family) are going to do exactly what you decide to do.  So often people get overly concerned what others say, that they forget to follow their heart.  Doesn't really matter if any of us agree with what you decide to do.  It's only important that you feel good about the decision. 

 

Best of luck

Aleebaba,

I'll bet baseballmom-son was recruited by this same school! (& others in same conference) He wound up at Tulane, who came out of nowhere while his summer team was at a tourney in Nebraska where all these "recruiting teams" were battling it out in CWS in 2005. http://dataomaha.com/cws/year/2005

 

Best decision son ever made! His "dream" was to use baseball to get an education...and play beyond, if possible. 

 

Ask yourself what your son really has with "preferred walk on/guaranteed roster spot"?

Look at the roster of the school...Who & how many returning at your son's position? And how much seniority does each have? Is your son 2nd string, 3rd, 4th? Are there 2-way players involved, too? Look at their play time, batting averages, OBP, etc. What about academic $$$? Realize, too, that there may be 35-40 on the roster, but only 25 travel with the team, usually the guys with the BEST results/ longevity with program. Unless there's a "phenom" or injury, these Big 12 schools don't take many freshmen. 

 

Have to agree with PG, infielddad & fenwaysouth, & others who replied. 

Bottom line, Coach will put THE BEST players on the field that give COACH the BEST chance of winning games to put team in the BEST position to go to Omaha. 

 

If your son has aspirations to eventually go pro, he needs the BEST opportunity for HIM, to develop HIS offensive & defensive skills, which translates into playtime, while getting an education. Academics first. 

 

Friends & walk-on offers are high risk...without "guarantees".  

 

One question I asked son...Do you want to be a big fish in a little pond, or a little fish in a big pond? He was neither, but it did get him to thinking about playing/developing vs. "saying he was on a team"...

 

 

Know your son I think.  He has talent and shouldn't give up the dream.  Go JUCO if you really can't figure it out and see what develops.  for baseball gives him playing time to see how much he improves in a year or two.  For school no one cares where you start school they care where you got your degree from.  The JUCO's in TX are heavily scouted.  

We told son that as long as he chooses a high academic school, and we can afford it, then it is completely his choice.  (In this case our daughter also happens to go to the school so we have no good argument to force him to go elsewhere).  After reading these posts I sat him down and we discussed how difficult it would be to get playing time, especially in the early years.  I don't think he cares.  He believes he can eventually beat out anyone at his position -- or at least earn significant playing time -- and he was told he would get a fair shot by coaches and 2 ex-players that we know.  

 

One argument that I am having a hard time understanding is early playing time v. coaching.  This school has some of the best coaching and resources in the country.  How do you weigh that against playing earlier in a less difficult conference?  Don't you get a chance to make some of that up in scrimmages and Summer Ball? .    

Practice will be what determines how he will be viewed by the coaching staff.

What you don't want to see happen is for him to burn a year by playing in one or two games and it happens very often at large programs.

If your son plays other positions it will be helpful, keep in mind that your bat keeps you in the lineup.

How ones does in the season determines where the coaching staff will place a player in summer and so does their prospect status. This should be a discussion with the coaching staff before a commitment, will he get an opportunity to play in summer somewhere.

Have a discussion in advance with him going to a D2 or 3 (in a year) if he feels he needs a change due to lack of playing time (in other words it doesn't work out).   If this is what he wants then its his call.

Keep in mind that he will not sign an NLI so the possibility of another opportunity coming up still exists, I would keep the door slightly ajar, this would include JUCO.

 

Originally Posted by TPM:

Keep in mind that he will not sign an NLI so the possibility of another opportunity coming up still exists, I would keep the door slightly ajar, this would include JUCO.

 

It isn't being suggested that because the player won't be signing an NLI, it is ok for the player to make an oral commitment that he intends to back out of.....is it?

 

Fine for the player to bargain for as much time as he can get to confirm to the coach whether he wants to be a "preferred walk-on". But once the commitment is made, even though it is oral and not written, I think it should be honored.

 

Yes, there can always be extenuating circumstances, but going into a commitment with a possible renege in mind............well, not my cup of tea.

 

 

 

Sorry but the player takes himself off of the market once he commits with nothing but a handshake until the fall of his entry year.  He should have the option of changing his mind just as the coach does. 
What I don't get was where was this big D1's interest all along or did the player through friends get word to the staff he would be willing to come to play as a walk on? Who recruited who?
Then by all means the player needs to keep his word.
Originally Posted by TPM:
Sorry but the player takes himself off of the market once he commits with nothing but a handshake until the fall of his entry year.  He should have the option of changing his mind just as the coach does. 
What I don't get was where was this big D1's interest all along or did the player through friends get word to the staff he would be willing to come to play as a walk on? Who recruited who?
Then by all means the player needs to keep his word.

So in the scenario that is being discussed here, you are saying that once the player shows up at Texas, or wherever, next August it would be perfectly fine for the coach to say,

 

"I know I guaranteed you a roster spot as a preferred walk-on, and I did that until you showed up, but guess what, I changed my mind. See ya. I saw on HSBBW that this is ok"

 

Or for the player to say,

 

"Yeah, I know I told you I would join your team as a guaranteed-roster-spot-preferred walk-on, but I showed up so now I can renege, and I'm going JUCO.  HSBBW says it is ok to do this no prob."

All that I am saying is that the player could discuss for an option to change his mind. Don't coaches do it all of the time?   You know that players commit and sign NLI to 4 year programs and end up going to JUCO or pro. This is not unheard of. And you know that coaches from many different programs ask more to show up than needed.

 

Circumstances change, this is the early signing period, quite different than making this decision in the regular signing period (april). I was under the impression that the dad was looking for a strong commitment for his son, which in most cases means scholarship dollars. I was trying to present all of my  sides.  I am a very strong believer in keeping commitments (why son went to college and not pro after HS), based upon the strong commitment shown from the programs side. 

 

What if the player gets hurt, what if the program doesn't lose as many as they think they will to the draft? What prevents the coach from NOT changing his mind when he has 37 that has showed up, doesn't he make his decision on who has the best opportunity to making an impact.

 

He asked for our input, I am looking at the scenario from all sides, particularly the players. Are you viewing from the coaches perspective?

 

How many other players have been asked the same?  I know of a big D1 program here in FL that asks quite a few to be "invited, guaranteed" walk on and invite more than they need to

 

I don't doubt that the player is not worthy of a D1 commitment, and most definitly will improve as he matures.  A lot of questions were asked, and as in everything a lot of different opinions given.

 

 

 

My opinion is that both the player's and coach's oral commitment to a guaranteed-roster-spot-preferred-walk-on position should be based on good faith and 100% intention to make it work.

 

It should not be based on the thinking that "what the heck, I can always get out of this with no lawsuit so why not say yes".

 

Sure, after any player shows up, with or without an NLI, circumstances can change. For the NLI player, the school is committed to providing scholarship money and the player is committed to meeting prescribed athletic and academic standards. Or, with mutual agreement the player can be released from the NLI. For the non-NLI player, if circumstances change, no legal obligations on either side.

 

I don't think a kid should be advised to take a non-NLI offer because "He should have the option of changing his mind just as the coach does."  And I don't think coaches should be advised to offer non-NLI spots because there would be no adverse legal consequences to reneging on them.

 

OK to agree to disagree on this. Just want to show any kids out there who may be reading this that there is not unanimity on this topic here.

 

 

 

Originally Posted by Green Light:

 

OK to agree to disagree on this. Just want to show any kids out there who may be reading this that there is not unanimity on this topic here.

 

 

 

I was offering different perspective, I never said it was right of wrong.

Again, I ask, are your responses based upon a coaches perspective or a parents? Or both?

 

It's obvious that this is the players dream school, so IMO at this point,  not sure what  we think or say really has much significant, to the player.  I think it is a great thing to go head first into a situation with a positive attitude that one come over come the odds (I know that very well), as long as they understand it fully. a

 

After all, as stated by dad, he is just 17.

Originally Posted by TPM:

 

 

I was offering different perspective, I never said it was right of wrong.

Again, I ask, are your responses based upon a coaches perspective or a parents? Or both?

 

Both.

 

See quote below:

 

"I don't think a kid should be advised to take a non-NLI offer because "He should have the option of changing his mind just as the coach does."  And I don't think coaches should be advised to offer non-NLI spots because there would be no adverse legal consequences to reneging on them."

Green Light,

Perhaps illustrations from the extremes assists in why the cautions combined with options need to be discussed.

A few years back, UNLV changed coaches following completion of the baseball season. The new coach came in and, in effect, made it clear nearly every student-athlete who signed an NLI with the former staff could come to school for one year but they would not play.  There was a very long thread on the HSBBW which included input from some of the players who were impacted.

On the other extreme, I am aware of a former HS player who was identified early in his junior year by a Big West program. They offered and he verballed.  Two weeks later, that player was on the campus of another Big West school on a recruiting trip.  The next week he withdrew one verbal and added another.  He then got more and more visibility and backed out of a second verbal to verbal to a Pac12 program where he ended up signing an NLI.  In June following his HS senior year, he was drafted and ended up signing on the very last day, leaving the school and coaching staff with no time to fill that slot.

I know TPM does not support either and don't think most of the "HSBBW" would, either.

My sense is Aleebaba and his son are carefully evaluating this walk-on option and all it entails. Clearly they take this very seriously.

With that said, many college coaches want to see players in the best situation and realize that sometimes it involves a situation which was not contemplated when the verbal agreement occurred. If handled correctly when it arises, by the player calling the coaches, and the coaching staff coming in late calling the coaching staff, it can work with everyone holding their head high, rather that the extremely poor reflection on college baseball recruiting created by the 2 illustrations which started this post.

Thanks for this information, infielddad, and the reference to the thread a few years back.

 

The following is what I originally said about this issue a few posts back and it is where I still stand.

 

It isn't being suggested that because the player won't be signing an NLI, it is ok for the player to make an oral commitment that he intends to back out of.....is it?

 

Fine for the player to bargain for as much time as he can get to confirm to the coach whether he wants to be a "preferred walk-on". But once the commitment is made, even though it is oral and not written, I think it should be honored.

 

Yes, there can always be extenuating circumstances, but going into a commitment with a possible renege in mind............well, not my cup of tea.

Originally Posted by infielddad:
Originally Posted by Green Light:

Thanks for this information, infielddad, and the reference to the thread a few years back.

 

The following is what I originally said about this issue a few posts back and it is where I still stand.

 

Yes, there can always be extenuating circumstances, but going into a commitment with a possible renege in mind............well, not my cup of tea.

I would completely agree with these thoughts and conclusions unless both the player and coaches have this type of discussion and agree.

 

 I taught my kids to think long and hard about their decisions and to live by their commitments, and IFD knows I am definitely not in favor of the situations he has mentioned above.

 

 Aleebaba and son should be aware that these situations do exist and can be handled positively rather than negatively!

 

The player and his family  should be aware that they too have options instead of worrying about the what ifs from the program side. The truth is that the coach holds a significant power in making it happen or not and I do know this is a very hard decision for anyone.

 

Heck my son was recruited for over a year from the program he attended, plus given a great scholarship and we still thought about the many what ifs even though we were told and assured that these coaches lived by their word. 

Originally Posted by TPM:
What I don't get was where was this big D1's interest all along or did the player through friends get word to the staff he would be willing to come to play as a walk on? Who recruited who?

Wow, lots of discussion since I left.  I am not really focused on the backing out of commitment thing as it is not an issue.

 

I do want to point out that school had contacted son via phone a few times in the past, and sent him messages thru intermediaries, but nothing serious happened to suggest major interest, especially over the last 3 months.  I then asked a friend to ask if there was still interest, and that is when everything started happening, and they called son and asked him to visit. 

Last edited by Aleebaba

Aleebaba,

 

Good luck and godspeed.  Not everybody gets an offer from their dream school.  That is very special.

 

I give you a lot of credit for looking at this from every angle, and requesting feedback from a lot of perspectives from this message board.  Well done, and I tip my cap to you.  You've given your son many data points to consider, and lot of parental support.

 

When the time is right, please let us know what he decides.

Found this post below from Swampboy in 2012 that is helpful.

 

 

Even the best walk-on situation is an invitation to a precarious baseball existence where the odds are against his ever making a meaningful contribution to the team.

It takes a special situation and a special player to make it work.

I recommend you assess both very carefully.

Step One: Assess the Situation.
Find out if he will be treated exactly like the scholarship players from the first day he arrives on campus.

At my son's school, there are preferred walk-ons whose status is indistinguishable from that of the scholarship athletes. They are so integrated into all aspects of team life that no one knows they are walk-ons unless they volunteer the information, which no one ever asks them to do.

Find out if the "guarantee" means your son will:
--Have the same conditioning and workout opportunities (group conditioning sessions, assigned locker, laundry service, after-hours facility access) as the scholarship players if he attends summer school with them;
--Have the same conditioning and workout opportunities in the weeks between the beginning of school and the beginning of official practice (this matters a lot because the players' concept of who is really on the team is solidified long before practices officially begin based on who is up early and working hard;
--Live in the same housing as the freshman scholarship players (this depends on your school: some coaches have control over a certain number of room assignments in preferred dorms; some coaches have no say in the matter at all);
--Receive the same academic support (services from team academic advisor, registration priority, free tutoring, etc.);
--Be exempted from the open tryout attended by the un-recruited walk-ons.

If all of the above are true, your son may assume he will be given a legitimate opportunity to prove himself.

Step Two: Assess the Suitability of the Player to Succeed as a Walk-on.
If the situation is promising, you can assess the player.

All walk-ons must confront two facts up front.
Fact #1:  The coach's livelihood depends on his ability to evaluate talent.
Fact #2:  The coach's initial assessment is that the walk-on has less potential than the scholarship athletes.

These facts are reality, and they will not go away.

For most players, the coach's assessment is correct and will be proven so by hard experience.

For a small minority, the coach's assessment is incorrect; however, recognition of these facts will eventually become a source of discouragement and doubt. These players should not become walk-ons.

For a tiny, tiny minority, the coach's assessment is incorrect, and the player's cast of character is such that the hard facts will become a wellspring of motivation and determination.

To assess your son's suitability for a walk-on spot, ask the following hard questions:
--Does your son have an informed basis for believing the coach's assessment is wrong and he really can compete alongside the scholarship players? Is it plausible?
--How good is your son at walking a hard path by himself?
--Is your son is the sort of young man who is driven to prove doubters wrong? When has he done it in the past? How often in life has he surged from the back of the pack to prevail in the end? Did he glide through youth ball on superior talent, or does he have a track record of outworking the competition and surprising his coaches?
--How hot does the fire burn within him? Does it still burn in the face of adversity? How often have others described your son as relentless, determined, passionate, or persistent?
--What's his track record in the matter of choosing friends? Does he naturally gravitate toward those with high goals and outstanding work habits, or does he choose friends mostly who are fun to hang out with?


If the situation is right and the player is right, it MIGHT not be totally reckless to accept the offer.

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

 

You stated "at your sons school" so I am assuming he has accepted the opportunity. Yes at the bigger programs their is no distinction between the things mentioned, they get everything that scholarship guys do and yes they are a definite part of the team, no one has disputed that fact.

 

Players don't discuss their particular situation but FYI walk on players are not announced until the roster comes out in fall/spring.  Seems that parents like to talk their players situation  more than the players.

 

Best of luck to your guy!  Have a great senior year!

 

Originally Posted by Green Light:
Originally Posted by TPM:

Are you trying to convince us or yourself?

 

You stated "at your sons school" so I am assuming he has accepted the opportunity. 

I think that's from Swampboy's excellent post, right?

Ok got that Green Light, that is correct! 

 

 

Aleebaba, 

I know you saw this thread..."When an offer really isn't one"...

These words from bacdorslider ring so true!... I added the bold...For any player with high level hopes & dreams of playing beyond college, he has to play those first 2 yrs. JUCO's that have been traditionally high caliber, include San Jacinto, Grayson, Navarro (former home of Skip Johnson), among others. Players from these schools typically feed into "dream school", or drafted. Some mid-level D-1's that seem to produce good results would include UTSA, UT Tyler, UT PanAm, U of Houston, Sam Houston State...

Food for thought & best of luck! The right school is out there

 

 where he could go for free, and get to play the first two years was more important than the level , sitting and waiting to play.  I mean wow at a D1 school you have to make the team, then the travel team, then get on the field... 35 on the roster  9 on the field.  all that glitters my friend.

Just as a reality check here at Juco's their are approx. 35 players and only 20 will see significant playing time.  You have to make the team. You have to make the travel team and then show enough to get playing time.  Any freshman in the up to 15 that do not get much playing time will probably not have their scholarship renewed.  So going to a Juco is no guarantee of playing time.  From 4 year D1 to D3 Juco it is all very competitive.

I personally do not see JUCO as best option if you have good grades and can play at a good academic school.  Many old-time posters mention going to a school that you would go to even without baseball.  That is what my son is going to do no matter what decision is made.  Also, if you read the "if I had to do it all over" thread in the general forum you will get a good understanding of the academic pitfalls of focusing too much just on baseball.  However, there are obviously a wide array of opinions on this issue.

Aleebaba - I come from the opposite side of the argument.  I say that kids should use baseball to get admitted to the best academic school that baseball will take them regardless of wether that school is in D1 or D3.  Knowing something about your son, I imagine he would be admitted to the "target" school regardless of baseball (this school is still an excellent school and I am not disparaging it at all!).  Why not use his baseball ability to reach even higher academically while creating a situation where he would also be a key member of the team and not an afterthought.  Schools like Johns Hopkins, Davidson, and Georgetown come to mind right away.  If pure academic reputation is the goal, your son is in the unique position to get both academics and baseball.  Why settle?

I don't disagree with you lefty, but I do not think that is what he will ultimately decide.  He always had dream to play at this school, not the highest academic schools that are showing interest.  I told him that he needs to decide based on having the fewest regrets in later years.  I would probably choose the path you describe, but, again, it's his call.  His mother and I are not going to stop him if that is what he wants, as decision is not crazy.  It's his life and it is a tough call.    

 "Many old-time posters mention going to a school that you would go to even without baseball."

 

But not all old-timers.  Many will say go to where you are wanted. 

 

The decision  really depends upon the player and his desire to play at the highest levels.  My son was at an excellent UC but the coach redshirted him, then played him sparingly, then told him he'd be a part time player.  Son was misrable and decided the school/coach s**ked and his desire to play baseball was a more important part of his college experience then he imagined as a high school senior, so he transfered to a JC, no regrets. 

 

btw what your son academically gets out of an ivy or jc is equal to what he puts into it. 

I don't want to or mean to hijack a thread but the subject is very similar.

 My son was just made a offer at his top school as a guaranteed walk on as the coach says they overextended their offers for this year. He said they had every intention of offering him a scholarship up until the last moment where they had to up their offer on two pitchers. He did say he can guarantee in writing that he would have scholarships for the remaining three years. By NCAA guidelines can this be done? Does he still sign a NLI?

 

Originally Posted by mech1978:

 He did say he can guarantee in writing that he would have scholarships for the remaining three years. By NCAA guidelines can this be done? Does he still sign a NLI?

 

Did he say that he would guarantee in writing that your son would be awarded a scholarship for the remaining 3 years?  Or just that scholarship money would be available?  The latter means essentially nothing; the former would require a written offer which meets the following rule:

15.3.2.2 Written Statement Requirement. The institutional agency making a financial aid award for a regular academic year or multiple regular academic years shall give the recipient a written statement of the amount, duration, conditions and terms of the award. The chair of the regular committee or other agency for the awarding of financial aid to students generally, or the chair’s official designee, shall sign or electronically authorize (e.g., electronic signature) the written statement. The signature of the athletics director, attesting to the committee’s award, does not satisfy this requirement.

In other words, a letter from the coach carries no actual weight.  Frankly, I cannot imagine that a college financial aid committee would make this kind of offer to a player who wasn't offered athletic aid during his freshman year.

 

In any event the language in the NLI contract does not fit this kind of situation, and could not be offered.  Just as well, since the NLI confers very little of value to a student athlete other than pride.  The offer of financial aid that accompanies a NLI does have some value, but as a practical matter the NLI itself only benefits the college.

In the email to me he said it would be in writing (I assumed a grant in aid contract) and said it would only be revocable for legal/criminal or academic issues.

 To update the head coach called him last night and upped the offer by 5% more.

 I can understand the situation their in and pretty much believe what they are telling me. They only have 4 SR. (1 pitcher, 2 catchers, 1 of) leaving this year.(my son is SS) The next class is 16 jrs with 9 of them being pitchers so I can see that they cant wait on beefing up their pitching and with only 1 catcher left they have no option there either.

 To top this because of Title IX restrictions they only have 7.5 total to split.

 

 

  

Originally Posted by Green Light:
Originally Posted by Aleebaba:
Originally Posted by Green Light:

It seems you or your son (?) has answered your question. Hope it is your son.

No, just thinking through issue with help from you guys.

So, it's a done deal, right?

It is now.  Son wants to go for it with the big boys and he called coach last night.  His sister is also at same school and tuition is less than what I would have had to pay at Ivy, so that helps him and us.  I personally may have chose a different route, but he wants to follow a dream.  I am here to support him any way I can.  The HSWEBB community has been so much help over the years, and I assume will continue to be there in this next stage with its ups and downs.  Just hope there are a lot of ups.  Thank you.  

Congratulations, Alleebaba (and son)!  I have been following your posts and responses closely since I also have a 2014.  I am glad your son has the opportunity to follow his dream!

 

MidloDad has posted about a catcher from our high school, who during his junior year wound up behind a stud, so he didn't get much notice or playing time.  (keewartson wasn't at the school at the time, but this family was a former next door neighbor so we like to follow him).  This player wasn't recruited much before the hs team won the state championship  again the next year, but networks were soon connected and a top conference school came calling in June, around graduation time.  The short story:  they needed a catcher, they had no money left, he gets redshirted, head coach changed, team had a "house cleaning", coach changed again, and he battled through it all.  The new beginning:  he got drafted this past June!

Thank all of you for your wonderful congratulations.  It is overwhelming to read so many well wishes from so many I have never met personally, but who have given me and my family so much.  This is the only so called "blog" I have ever been a part of, and I can't express how much all this means to me.  I only hope I can help someone else as much as you guys helped me. 

For those that don't know, my son's name is Noah Lee, and he committed to the University of Texas.  He has always wanted to play there, and I pray he gets to do so if worthy.    .   

3Fingeredglove
 Thanks for making your point. I asked the coach directly about who would be signing this and he said that he would be. I then asked him if he knew how enforceable or what worth this would have if god forbid my son was hurt or if he (the coach )lost his job.  He flat out didn't have a answer for me on that. He then went on how he would officially commit the three years in a GIA on the second year and that we need to trust them.
Originally Posted by 3FingeredGlove:
Originally Posted by mech1978:

 He did say he can guarantee in writing that he would have scholarships for the remaining three years. By NCAA guidelines can this be done? Does he still sign a NLI?

 

Did he say that he would guarantee in writing that your son would be awarded a scholarship for the remaining 3 years?  Or just that scholarship money would be available?  The latter means essentially nothing; the former would require a written offer which meets the following rule:

15.3.2.2 Written Statement Requirement. The institutional agency making a financial aid award for a regular academic year or multiple regular academic years shall give the recipient a written statement of the amount, duration, conditions and terms of the award. The chair of the regular committee or other agency for the awarding of financial aid to students generally, or the chair’s official designee, shall sign or electronically authorize (e.g., electronic signature) the written statement. The signature of the athletics director, attesting to the committee’s award, does not satisfy this requirement.

In other words, a letter from the coach carries no actual weight.  Frankly, I cannot imagine that a college financial aid committee would make this kind of offer to a player who wasn't offered athletic aid during his freshman year.

 

In any event the language in the NLI contract does not fit this kind of situation, and could not be offered.  Just as well, since the NLI confers very little of value to a student athlete other than pride.  The offer of financial aid that accompanies a NLI does have some value, but as a practical matter the NLI itself only benefits the college.

 

ok, my son is a preferred walk on at a very prestigious state college baseball team. he has been redshirted. which he calls "cheating." he gets an extra year playing time. woohoo! he works the bullpen. however, he sees this as a learning experience and time for improvement. he's a great baseball player, very atheletic. a team leader , if you will. i'mvery proud of him. if he goes no where in baseball, he's ok with that. wants to use his degree to work in law enforcement. i'd say...doesn't matter where you go. as long as your heads screwed on straight.

Originally Posted by jilly willy:

ok, my son is a preferred walk on at a very prestigious state college baseball team. he has been redshirted. which he calls "cheating." he gets an extra year playing time. woohoo! he works the bullpen. however, he sees this as a learning experience and time for improvement. he's a great baseball player, very atheletic. a team leader , if you will. i'mvery proud of him. if he goes no where in baseball, he's ok with that. wants to use his degree to work in law enforcement. i'd say...doesn't matter where you go. as long as your heads screwed on straight.

FSU

I asked FSU because I know of quite a few catchers who walked on, but all they did was catch bullpens.  I believe its a practice most big schools do in FL.

Redshirting is costing the team nothing, your son may think he is cheating, getting extra years, but if he never plays regularly, he will not get those extra years.

Hope your son has a good bat and can play multiple positions, that is the only way most walk on position guys can survive in the ACC. And make sure he has a place to play this summer, because next year he will have to compete and prove himself against a whole new class of players.

IMO, it DOES matter where you go, if you want to play baseball while you are there.

Anyone who says other wise is just fooling themselves.

JMO.

Last edited by TPM

I agree with TPM, unless you are injured, Red Shirt is generally a red flag as most of the top programs are three and done for the top players who are on the field. Next year the next crop of "three and done" come in and it starts all over. It does matter a lot where you go as you want to be in a program where the coach has a plan for you. Now if you don't care if you play or not then by all means just go to the best school and roll the dice.  

Originally Posted by BOF:

I agree with TPM, unless you are injured, Red Shirt is generally a red flag as most of the top programs are three and done for the top players who are on the field. Next year the next crop of "three and done" come in and it starts all over. It does matter a lot where you go as you want to be in a program where the coach has a plan for you. Now if you don't care if you play or not then by all means just go to the best school and roll the dice.  

 Red shirts are for injuries only.  Any other should look for another school if playing is your goal.  Also from experience we always had a preferred walk on catcher in every class.  Somebody has to catch all those bull pens.  I know several that where on the team 4 years and almost never played.  But they can always say they played D1 ball.  Most of these guys where my favorite teammates.

I'll offer a personal walk-on's perspective, though mine was a different situation than Aleebaba's or Jillywily's sons'. Different in that 1) I walked on not at a big time baseball school but at the D3 that I had already attended for a year, which was not a particularly strong program; 2) I had no "preferred status"... I was basically "who's this guy?" (though I had spoken with the coach who said sure come on out... to the open try out); and 3) It was a time in the far, far distant past known as "The 80's"... when college baseball in general was a much simpler proposition I think.

 

So even with those caveats, my experience was that I had no real visions of ever suiting up even for home games, let alone making the travel squad or ever seeing the field. My fuzzy goal was basically just to land some sort of practice squad role... catch practice bullpens, shag fly balls, rake the field... whatever.  My expectations were so low in fact that I really was just hoping to get lucky enough to survive a round or two of cuts, and thereby maybe stick around long enough to work out with the team a handful of times. For me, that would have been worth the effort! And I did put a lot of effort into preparing for the tryouts. Anyway, without boring you with my thrilling yesteryear baseball exploits, I did end up making the team and did eventually see some decent playing time... all of which was an absolute thrill that I truly cherish. And I guess that's my point; these guys have chosen to take a shot at playing big time college baseball. Sure, it's an outside shot... so hopefully they understand that fully going in. But much stranger things have happened than a walk-on becoming a team contributor. When I first got handed a uni (that memory alone still makes me smile now nearly *gulp* 30 years later), my role initially was to pinch run.  That's literally all I did, at home games only mind you, for most of the first season! But I was on the team by then and, though as minimally as it gets, I was occasionally on the field. Later I did begin to get some legit PT. So more power to these walk-ons! Root around for whatever scraps you can find and then show 'em what you got every chance you get!

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