In preseason games should a team try and win those games or not show their hand as to what they want to do in the regular season?
I believe play the game the way you would in the regular season because you need to work on those type of things in a game like situation.
Any opinions?
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IMO, winning or loosing doesn't matter. You want to work everyone into the game and let them get the in game experience. Plus you want to work out certain situations and player combos.
As long as the scoreboard is on the players are going to play it straight up but most coaches use the pre-season for their players to get some live AB's and log valuable mound time. Also, pre-season is a great time for the coach to evaluate the unproven and see who has the potential to help in season.
In our state, the preseason (or non-conference) games potentially count toward your overall seeding for the State tournament, so there is incentive to play to win. That seems at odds with the intent (at least in my mind) of why you have preseason games. If I am a coach, I want to ramp up my pitchers during these games, see how different kids react to situations and determine my strengths and weaknesses. However, given the potential implications, we play to win starting with the first game.
Agree with K and K. Preseason games count toward your section seed, so they're just as important as league games, maybe even more so if you're playing up a division in preseason. As for not tipping your hand, it's not like your pitchers or roster is going to be a big secret, and the people you don't want to tip to anyway would be your league opponents. OTOH, I have seen teams hold back top pitchers when playing fall or "club" games against league opponents, and that makes sense. to me.
Hmm . . . what do you mean by "preseason?" When I first saw the OP, I assumed it meant unofficial games/scrimmages before the season starts -- but looking at a couple of the responses, for some people maybe it means games early in the season that are not league or conference games?
BTW, I assumed the op was talking about games that don't count toward anything. We tend to refer to games that count in the rankings, but don't count towards your conference standings non-conference games around here. Preseason games are games that don't count towards any standings. If they are non-confrence games but count towards playoff seedings, yes you play to win those.
Little different here. Teams are allowed 2 scrimmages only, and of course those do not count. They play 10 out-of-conference games. Since most or all of those happen before league play they're usually called preseason games.
We aren't allowed any scrimmages. We get 24 regular season games, 7 of which are non-conference games that are completed before league play starts. They all count.
In our neck of the woods two scrimmages are allowed against other programs. These sometimes are not handled like regular games the first couple of innings. Coaches work on situations. Sometimes Walks are not allowed. If you take four balls the batter stays in until they strike out or make contact. Players are not punished for not swinging, Just no walks. Pitchers are not supposed to be throwing them over the middle but they are supposed to throw strikes. Upper Class-men pitchers have a bit more leeway. If they are up 2 strikes they can try and get a batter to chase.
That may not be how all programs run it. It was how our program did it and the teams that we visited or came to play at our field bought into ti at least for these scrimmages.
2018 has been playing Saturday "scrimmages" from October through late February, then the actual season starts at the end of the month. 7 inning games, generally throwing 3-4 pitchers at least, no formal score being kept, and on occasion the inning will end before three outs if a pitcher is really struggling.
The tricky part is they are carrying a 22 man roster, so no one gets more than two AB's a week, and no one really plays more than four innings. Kind of hard for the kids to improve much given such minimal playing time.
kandkfunk,
There is a huge difference between a preseason and non-conference game. Preseason means the regular season hasn’t begun yet, i.e. games don’t count toward the team’s W/L Pct.. Once the regular season begins, there are conference/league games and non-conference/league games. A pre-season game is in reality a scrimmage game that counts neither for or against the team’s season record. It’s like spring training for the ML. If your state counts scrimmage games for post season seedings, it’s the only one I ever heard of. What state is it?
In VA (where I am) there are no "preseason" games. VHSL allows two scrimmages before the regular season begins (max 20 games). The scrimmages do not count in the standings. The last few years my son played the early regular season games were generally non-district games that did not count in the district standings. They served as good tune up games once district play began.
GoldenSombrero posted:2018 has been playing Saturday "scrimmages" from October through late February, then the actual season starts at the end of the month. 7 inning games, generally throwing 3-4 pitchers at least, no formal score being kept, and on occasion the inning will end before three outs if a pitcher is really struggling.
The tricky part is they are carrying a 22 man roster, so no one gets more than two AB's a week, and no one really plays more than four innings. Kind of hard for the kids to improve much given such minimal playing time.
Interesting. We're in the same part of the country, so it is very similar, other than the coaches absolutely do not try to give equivalent playing time, or anything close to it. Pitching is more distributed, just because they're not having anyone throw more than two, or at the most three, innings, but for position players, there are kids not even getting off the bench. At this point, you can pretty much tell what the starting lineup will be, and who the top 3 pitchers will be, once the season starts in a few weeks.
FoxDad posted:
In VA (where I am) there are no "preseason" games. VHSL allows two scrimmages before the regular season begins (max 20 games). The scrimmages do not count in the standings. The last few years my son played the early regular season games were generally non-district games that did not count in the district standings. They served as good tune up games once district play began.
Those 2 scrimmages are games, they are played prior to the regular season, and they don’t count in the standings. That makes them “preseason” games which are different than regular season games, early or not or district games or not.
What would help discussions like this is having a universal name for conference/league/district. Here, no matter what it’s called, only those games determine post season play which is why many of the better teams play every monster team they can get on the schedule. That’s because although only conference/league/district games have a bearing on state post season play, the entire schedule has a bearing on state or national rankings.
In the HS where my son plays (NY) they do play "scrimmage" games before the regular season starts. The regular season is a mix of league (4 other teams that they place twice each) and non-league games. All wins count towards the points that they earn that then determines whether they play, and where they rank, for the playoffs. Non-league games could be almost anyone else, as long as most of them are NY teams. Scrimmage games do not count towards the wins or losses.
For instance, they're playing in a PG Tournament in mid-March and one of those games (against Billy Wagner's HS team) will count as a non-league game and determine any possible points towards the playoffs. The other 3 games they play there are considered "scimmage" games, not non-league games, as they are allowed a maximum of 20 total games.
It's taken me 2 years to understand all of this. :-)
2019Dad posted:GoldenSombrero posted:2018 has been playing Saturday "scrimmages" from October through late February, then the actual season starts at the end of the month. 7 inning games, generally throwing 3-4 pitchers at least, no formal score being kept, and on occasion the inning will end before three outs if a pitcher is really struggling.
The tricky part is they are carrying a 22 man roster, so no one gets more than two AB's a week, and no one really plays more than four innings. Kind of hard for the kids to improve much given such minimal playing time.
Interesting. We're in the same part of the country, so it is very similar, other than the coaches absolutely do not try to give equivalent playing time, or anything close to it. Pitching is more distributed, just because they're not having anyone throw more than two, or at the most three, innings, but for position players, there are kids not even getting off the bench. At this point, you can pretty much tell what the starting lineup will be, and who the top 3 pitchers will be, once the season starts in a few weeks.
2019Dad - I love 2018's coaches, good guys who know the game, BUT they seem to be in a "make everybody happy / develop everyone" mindset, so literally 22 guys are playing in a 7 inning game. No question who the top three pitchers are, but many kids only play 2 innings defensively, and most kids only get one AB per game. Now the real question is, come the real season in three weeks, do they keep doing it this way, or does it shrink down to a core of 13-15 players? Will be very interesting.
Stats4Gnats posted:FoxDad posted:
In VA (where I am) there are no "preseason" games. VHSL allows two scrimmages before the regular season begins (max 20 games). The scrimmages do not count in the standings. The last few years my son played the early regular season games were generally non-district games that did not count in the district standings. They served as good tune up games once district play began.
Those 2 scrimmages are games, they are played prior to the regular season, and they don’t count in the standings. That makes them “preseason” games which are different than regular season games, early or not or district games or not.
What would help discussions like this is having a universal name for conference/league/district. Here, no matter what it’s called, only those games determine post season play which is why many of the better teams play every monster team they can get on the schedule. That’s because although only conference/league/district games have a bearing on state post season play, the entire schedule has a bearing on state or national rankings.
Call them what you like but they are officially listed as "scrimmages" on the schedule and have no bearing on the conference (formerly district) standings. VHSL is specific - there can be no more than two scrimmages and no more than 20 regular season games on the schedule. Period. It may be just semantics but no where does VHSL mention "preseason" games.
I can only speak of my experience in VA. Your state may differ.
Stats4Gnats posted:kandkfunk,
There is a huge difference between a preseason and non-conference game. Preseason means the regular season hasn’t begun yet, i.e. games don’t count toward the team’s W/L Pct.. Once the regular season begins, there are conference/league games and non-conference/league games. A pre-season game is in reality a scrimmage game that counts neither for or against the team’s season record. It’s like spring training for the ML. If your state counts scrimmage games for post season seedings, it’s the only one I ever heard of. What state is it?
Well, I've replied twice to this thread. In my first response, I did add a parenthesis that I was talking about non-conference games. In my second response I explained that we do not get scrimmages against other teams, if that is what is being considered 'pre-season'. We could attend a 'jamboree' but nobody in our state really hosts baseball jamborees because each game is limited to 24 minutes and four teams must to participate. Our first 7 games, which are non-conference, all count. Reading through the entire thread, it's clear there is a lot of variation in how states handle this. I am envious of the teams that have been working out for several months. Your players will be much better prepared than ours. Here, we don't even start formal workouts until 2/29 and first non-conference games are 3/15. Pitchers do get to start throwing mid-February, but there are strict numbers on how many pitchers/catchers can work out per day. It's hard to fit meaningful workouts in for all of a program's pitchers. Prior to 2/15, each high school program can only work with a max of 2 players per day. Given this structure, there really isn't a great way to fit scrimmages in prior to the start of non-conference games.
The definition for a scrimmage in NY is pretty straightforward.
Scrimmages: A softball/ baseball scrimmage must include free substitutions and lineup cards will not be exchanged. Scrimmages must also include one or more of the following:
I’d sure double check with NYSPHSAA about that tournament where supposedly 3 of the 4 games will be considered scrimmages. It doesn’t look like the definition covers them. The only reason I mention it is because a couple years ago we played in a tournament and ended up in the finals. That extra game took us over the limit for the season and we got penalized by losing 2 games the next year.
