PROPER THROWING MECHANICS

Find a good instructor in your area to help you with your mechanics. Let him do the thinking for you for a while.

It would be my guess that if you are feeling something moving around in your elbow area you are doing something wrong.

I just bought a DVD called, "Ultimate Infield." The instructor in the video is Perry Hill who is the infield coach for the FLorida Marlins. His techniques are simple and make so much sense. I have seen my son's mechanics and footwork improve 100%. They no longer have a website, but a company called "Baseball Pros" carries the DVD. I hope this helps.

baseball pros website

The best way to correct what you think is wrong with your mechanics is "one on one" with a trusted instructor--words cannot solve it--without seeing you in action it is nearly impossible to give you direction

The key word is trusted instructor. There are a ton of baseball instructors out there but there are very few who acutally know what they are talking about.

TR is right.

The best way to get the best instruction is ONE ON ONE with a trusted instructor that has been there and done that.

Stay away from any websites saying they have all the answers to throwing mechanics and throwing hard. There is no way you will ever get anywhere near the best trainer over a keyboard and monitor!

Matter of fact, it's a prescrition to a waste time and money when you could of spent it on a reputable pitching instructor who also was a baseball pitcher himself, not some electrical engineer nut job like one site out there that profeses to have all the answers yet has no track record of helping and of it's customers to any level of major leaque success!!

Baseball is a high elbow sport.
One of the best books I have read is "Everything You Need to Know About Pitching" by Louisville Slugger. My sons Chiropractor has a small part of a chapter in "The Pitchers Edge" by Tom House & Nolan Ryan. He advocates keeping the elbows high but there is more to it than that. My son was getting some shoulder tension because he was dropping his front elbow during long toss.
One thing you can do is pwt a broom stick across the top of your shoulders and alighn both elbows with the broom stick with your hands straight up in the air like goal posts. Keep them up and go through your pitching motion. This will be awkward but it will give you an idea of how you should keep the elbows up.

Look, throwing is like hitting in many aspects. There are certain things that are definites ie Keep your eyes on the ball or get in the power posistion when throwing. But some kids have a natural arm slot that may be different than what is the general idea of how a kid should throw. If you change your arm slot and you feel pain (stop). Everyone is not meant to throw with the same mechanics. Some kids are comfortable throwing straight over the top. Some are comfortable throwing 3/4 etc. Some can throw from multiple arm slots. If you work on a different arm slot and it just feels uncomfortable thats one thing. But if you are feeling pain (stop). Forget that arm slot it is not meant for your body.

thanks guys. i did find a trusted instructor from my school and i indeed was doing it fine. i have started leading with my elbow more but my ULNAR nerve was a bit sore and he said thats normal he use to pitch minor league ball. i feel great having a good off seaosn throwing and hitting very frequently. cant wait till try outs!

Dan,

Ulnar nerve pain is most certainly NOT normal.

It means that you have a mechanical problem that is placing extra strain on your elbow.

One thing to check is the angle of your pitching arm side elbow, and the position of your pitching arm side forearm, at the moment that your shoulders start to turn. I'd be willing to bet that you are turning your shoulders before your pitching arm side forearm is vertical. Your elbow might also be bent more than 90 degrees at the moment that your shoulders start to turn (so that the ball passes closer to your head). Mark Prior does this and it is one of the causes of his elbow problems.

One thing that you might want to work on is pronating your wrist as you release the ball (turning your wrist counter-clockwise so that your palm faces the ground). This will take some of the load off of your elbow.

wow thank you chris. i havent checked the board in days. funny thing is i think im doing something right but i get a different opinion from some one else....

heres what iv e made out of it, yes ulnar pain is not normal. and that i THOUGHT i was throwing right but im having a hard time breaking old habits. when im in power position and load back i move my head to much when i begin my throw and i pull to far down with my left arm (im a righty) thus causing my arm to go up and basically create a windmill throw..... so i have some drills on keeping my head much more still and throwing while leading the elbow and not pulling to hard down on my left arm


and your right my shoulder was opening up too.

You say you get to the power position. Do you follow the common advice to show the ball to Center Field? If so, that may be the cause of your problem. You might want to try just showing the ball to 3B (palm facing away from your body).

At the power position, you might also want to have your elbow bent just 45 degrees (leaning back toward CF) rather than 90 degrees (vertical).

There's nothing necessarily wrong with a windmill throw (aka throwing over the top) as long as your arm goes up because your shoulders are tilted. In fact, that's how you throw a 12-6 curveball. However, if your elbow goes above the level of your shoulders, then that's a bad thing.

Hi,

Are you also making sure that your elbows stay in line and that DO NOT go behind the back, in that that very harmful pinching of the shoulder blade action?

Get a clue rufus.

Linear--- get real pal--there others out there who may know something and have something to offer--- at least they come without attitude--

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Linear--- get real pal--there others out there who may know something and have something to offer--- at least they come without attitude--

I don't care that you don't like me TR. But quit giving bad advice.

If you don't think the elbows go behind the back then your confirming how much of an idiot you are.

While I agree that you don't want your elbows to go too far behind your shoulders (basically your back) or above your shoulders, I don't think that's the problem here.

If he was doing this to too large of a degree, it would manifest itself as shoulder pain, not Ulnar nerve pain.

Ulnar nerve pain means you are putting too much load on the elbow.

Linear

read what I said-- I am telling you there are others out there who know things-- just because your have a guru to follow does not make you correct all the time--is it bad advice because it doesnt agree with your "dogma"?

Like you or not like you has nothing to do with anything--If I get upset about cyperspace people then I am worse than you-- you area cyberspace sham and I will repeat--join the real world pal--you are missing a lot--- nobody has an inkling as to what or what you do not know about anything.

Bottom line for me --I will stay with the real world people who can teach and people see the results on a field

You say the opposite of me no matter what I say.

I could care less. Your an old, over the hill, know nothing groupie.

Everyone knows it........except you.

I'm asking for you to shut up and quit giving bad advice to people.

99% of all mlb pitchers will have their elbows go behind their back. And, not just behind their back, but almost as far behind their back as they will go.

It's a fact.

Then again, facts have never stood in the way of an old, over the hill, know nothing opinion.

Fellas - please retract the fangs - and enjoy the Panther - Bears game.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
..Bottom line for me --I will stay with the real world people who can teach and people see the results on a field

Great idea. Turn your computer in.

Go to the park. If anyone walks by, spew your nonsense to them.

Linear

How does your wife put up with you or is this your "cyberspace" personality ???

Hi Linear,

Are you one of those followers that believes that this scapula loading action is the way to throw a baseball?

If so, then I can tell you that you are following the road to a dangerous injury to your throwing elbow!

Ouch!! This thread hurts!!

Krak

welcome

quote:

Originally posted by Rufus:
Hi Linear,

Are you one of those followers that believes that this scapula loading action is the way to throw a baseball?

If so, then I can tell you that you are following the road to a dangerous injury to your throwing elbow!

And so are 99% of all mlb players......not just the pitchers.

If you don't want to take the risk, don't. Be an accountant or something.

If you want to have a chance at being the best you can be, then you better learn what the good ones do.

99% of all of them scap load and the elbow goes behind the back.

Fact.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
Linear

How does your wife put up with you or is this your "cyberspace" personality ???

TR

How does ANYONE put up with you or is this your "cyberspace" personality ???

Linear

The funny thing is, both of these guys probably can't hit a 70 mph fastball or throw a ball on a line 90 feet and never have been able to.

This would have been hillarious in Coaches Tips.

Linear,

No Clue....Ah? You better know what your talking about!


The only way to achieve this Pinching action of which has been termed by a so called pitching Guru wannabe as Scapular Loading, is for pitchers to reverse rotate from an imaginary line that we can draw through the tips of both shoulders beyond second base thus keeping the palm of their pitching hand facing downward, and their pitching forearm below their pitching upper arm, allowing their pitching elbow to move behind their acromial line, such that their pitching arm points toward the opposite mid-infielder.

While this reverse horizontal centripetal force keeps their pitching upper arm in this position, pitchers then would have to powerfully pull their glove side upper arm backward until their glove elbow also moves behind their acromial line to nearly touch their pitching elbow...Yikes!

Now because their pitching upper arm is behind their acromial line,....that is, the imaginary line that we can draw through the tips of both shoulders, this position places considerable stress on the attachment of the Subscapularis muscle and the posterior shoulder capsule.

Because their pitching upper arm is at shoulder height and their pitching forearm is below shoulder height, with the pitching palm facing downward, pitchers then would have to outwardly rotate the Humerus bone of the upper arm to raise their pitching forearm above shoulder height.

Now because their pitching upper arm is behind their acromial line, the outward rotation of the Humerus bone of the pitching upper arm pinches the posterior capsule and Labrum. This action,...termed "Scapular Loading" will destroy the posterior shoulder and eventualy rupture the Ulnar Collateral Ligament over time!

AND,....because pitchers have to outwardly rotate the Humerus bone of the upper arm to raise their pitching forearm above shoulder height, the outward rotation of their pitching upper arm generates backward centripetal force with their pitching forearm, which they have to decelerate to a stop,.. BEFORE, they can start their pitching forearm forward.....Yikes again!!!!

This Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce, unnecessarily stresses the front of their pitching shoulder and the inside of their pitching elbow!!!

Because during this Reverse Pitching Forearm Bounce, pitchers start to move their body forward, they then use their pitching upper arm to pull their pitching forearm in the same direction. Now with their pitching elbow moving forward while their pitching forearm, hand and baseball moves backward, they greatly increase the injurious strength of the Reverse Pitching forearm Rebounce.

This is how pitchers snap their Ulnar Collateral Ligament and, even, break the Humerus bone of their pitching upper arm.!

Any pitcher that forces this ""Scapular loading"" action is on a dangerous road to ruin of an Ulnar Collateral Ligament rupture, medial epicondyle avulsion, fracture and displacement of the Ulnar Nerve Groove Fascial tear, Humerus bone fracture and the pain that they will cause.

Scapular loading is dangerous. Pitchers at the highest level of baseball pitching DO NOT force the loading or pinching of the shoulder blades. For there is no conscious effort to do so.

"Scapular Loading" is a bad idea from those who do not know what they are doing....As in clueless! Give them the respect that they deserve, none.

Scapular Loading is nothing more then a pop term to establish a no name by a marketing ploy!

Without "linear: and his abuse I could not sleep at night--I am glad that I give him an outlet that his "shrink'says he needs

It is truly a shame that he doesnt know as much as he thinks he does--

But I do feel very good in knowing that I am not the only one on here that does not know as miuch as he does--none of us does except perhaps Bluedog but then they both have the same "guru".

Rufus

I am with you--

Folks, you'll have to excuse Linear his self-employed health insurance plan apparently just jacked up the price of his perscriptions, because he has quit taking them cold turkey.

Either that or Mrs. Linear has him sleeping on the couch.......if you follow me!

Geez Richard, what's gotten into you, has business been that slow?

"...Organizations should be like tall trees that supply support and foundation on one side, while the kids are the fruit and leaves that benefit from that support and make the continued success of the tree posible...."

Thanks - this quote just helped me break a writer's block on the screenplay I'm fiddling with this afternoon.

Rufus,

Just a quick question for you.

Could you post a video clip of pitcher who demonstrates the technique you support who throws harder than 85 MPH??

Could you please provide the name of a MLB pitcher who you would have 12U pitcher emulate or whose mechanics come closest to your pitching scientist's ideas.

It is amazing that you espouse Mike Marshall, a man who said MLB has no clue(meaning his own credentials as a player mean nothing), and credits his knowledge of pitching to his education not his Major League experience and you discard another man whose knowledge and understanding of the throw/swing are also from intense study of science and high-speed video. It is one man's science vs. another.

Rufus, I suggest that you study up on both sides of the debate.

JD

Krakatoa

Did you write the screenplay for my all-time favorite, Those Da-- Yankees?

Gloveman

Have not forgotten about that great video clip you posted 3 or 4 years ago.

Gotta see em Shep,
Good to see ya!

JDEL,

It is very interesting that you bring up credentials.

I would not try to compare an electrical engineer with only a bachelor's degree and no background what so ever in baseball as either a player or a coach on any level to which one would want to compare credibility to that of a Cy-Young award winning pitcher with a doctors degree in Physiology.

That's like comparing a plumber with a rocket scientist!

Rufus


So, you're a Marshall guy. The ultimate quack.

I have a library of clips of mlb players. I don't have one clip of a pitcher whose elbows don't go behind his back.

I would post some examples but it would be every clip I have.....probably 100+.

How about you posting 1.....just one...clip of a mlb pitcher whose elbows don't go behind his back.

As far as avoiding injury is concerned I've got the ultimate, safest, completely fool proof way to avoid injury....................don't play.

If your goal is to avoid injury, just don't play. You'll reach your goal.

But, if your goal is to play at the highest level, you better scap load.

I agree with Jdel. When you can post 1 clip of a guy doing what Marshall suggests, that throws over 85mph, I'll listen.

Until then........

Yikes. After reading this thread, I think I'll just tell my son to keep watching Zach Duke...

Linear,

I am a big fan of Dr. Marshall's ideas. However, in this case I tend to agree with you.

Every major leaguer that I have looked at does move their elbows behind the Acromial Plane to one degree or another and not every one injures themselves.

That's a fact.

The thing that seems to make the difference is whether you move the elbows both behind the Acromial Plane and above the shoulders.

Guys who "Scap Load" with their elbows low seem to have few shoulder problems (e.g Ryan, Seaver, and Clemens). Guys who "Scap Load" with their elbows high (e.g. at or above their shoulders) seem to have relatively more shoulder problems (e.g. Drysdale, Madritsch, and others).

Coach Chris

Linear, Its crystal clear, rufus is a dufus! Hes another blowhard who simply doesnt know what he is talking about. His discription of scap loading is wrong as is Chris's, at least his opinion of the level of the shoulders as it relates to possible injury, I guess it could have a little merit but the point is moot because the description is wrong. If the correct procedure/timing is not known how can it be taught or understood? Thus making his point moot or nonplausible Fact is proper scap loading technique/time wise is a must to protect the entire shoulder. So many of these so called gurus are just plain lost. There opinion of scap loading is jamming the elbows behind the acromial line or a "hyperflexion" action which is not good. They dont know how/when its supposed to be done therefore they automatically think its wrong. Scapular dynamics just may be the main indicator for potential injuries to the shoulder. Scapular dynamics are always affected when a player has an injury. The real question is what caused the injury in the first place. In many cases it is a disfunction or non fucntion of proper scapular dynamics. Which only makes sense due to the fact that all cuff tendons originate from the fossa of the scapula. The scapula is the foundation for providing a stable base for the upper to work off of.

Chris a person does not load the scap with his elbows down, this would produce way to much friction upon elevation. Proper scap loading has nothing to do with rotation of the humerus either. A person can put his arms up elbows shoulder level with his palms facing any direction he wants. As well as rotating the humerus wherever/howecver he can and load the scapula. The elevation of the arm should be an assistant to proper scap loading.Everything that preceeds the actual loading of the scapula is totally independent of the scapula loading in itself, to as point. Proper scapula dynamics serve to provide a stable base as well as funnel the energy to the throwing arm instead of wasting it elsewhere. Pitching is a series of loadings/unloadings one loading facilitates another and so on throughout the chain. For you Marshallites to get it even halfway right you would have to think load the scap extemely late in regards to where the delivery is in a certain time and space. Most successful pitchers do not get the arm up nearly as quick as Marshall likes to see his pitchers. Which is one reason why they will never amount to much in my opinion.

"Fact is proper scap loading technique/time wise is a must to protect the entire shoulder."

Why exactly is this? Why don't you think the body can take care of this itself?


"There opinion of scap loading is jamming the elbows behind the acromial line or a "hyperflexion" action which is not good. They dont know how/when its supposed to be done therefore they automatically think its wrong."

So exactly what is it and when should it be done? What purpose does it solve?


"Scapular dynamics are always affected when a player has an injury."

I assume you are talking about shoulder injuries. Of course, this is a given since the scapula is the key structure when it comes to the shoulder joint.


"Chris a person does not load the scap with his elbows down, this would produce way to much friction upon elevation."

So then how do you explain what Nolan Ryan is doing in frame 27.1 (among others) of this document...
http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf

His elbows are down in this and other photos.


"Proper scap loading has nothing to do with rotation of the humerus either."

How could it not, given that the purpose of the muscles that attach to the scapula is to hold the proximal head of humerus in the socket and articulate the humerus (e.g. upper arm).


"Proper scapula dynamics serve to provide a stable base as well as funnel the energy to the throwing arm instead of wasting it elsewhere."

I agree, but I'm not convinced that this is something that the body can't take care of naturally.


"Most successful pitchers do not get the arm up nearly as quick as Marshall likes to see his pitchers. Which is one reason why they will never amount to much in my opinion."

But some like Freddy Garcia do. So you have a low opinion of him?

Now you can see why I gave up on you the other day.

Lots and lots of words about something of which you know nothing.

Yet, many conclusions.

The entire analysis is full of misinterpretation and not based in fact.

And, you can find an exception to every thing. Why don't you use Steve Avery to continue your nonsense?

Bottom line is the rotator housing.

It is either damaged or not damaged.

Some weightlifting can do permanent damage that will stretch rotator cuff muscles, create scar tissue, require surgery to shave scar tissue from weightlifting damage.

BTW< how is Doc Andrews? Anybody heard?

Shep

I think I know a decent amount about it, but if you think I'm so wrong, then enlighten me.

Also, I'm not sure what nonsense you're referring to. I have taken a look at Steve Avery and it looks like he had a flaw in his motion that has also affected Chris Carpenter.

Avery and Carpenter are completely different.

One loads the scap, the other didn't.

You may know alot. You just don't know the right stuff.

And, as I told you before, I won't educate you. One who makes ridiculous conclusions without the facts is usually not "educatable" if that is a word.

Too much religion. Not enough objectivity.

Chris, You simply dont know what it is your looking at. Nor will I educate you, do a lttle homework yourself. Unfortunately for you the homework you need will NOT be found at Dr. Mikes mansion of mayhem,misfits and minions!

You dont listen to well do you Chris?Heres a hint go back and read what I said about elevation and facilitates.

I have done a breakdown of Avery's motion and in frames 7.1 and 8.1 (among others) he is doing something that sure as heck looks like scap loading...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SteveAvery.pdf

However, his pitching arm side elbow is above his shoulder while he is doing this, which I believe contributes to his problems.

Chris Carpenter does something very similar in frame 22.2, but both of his elbows are below his shoulders...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_ChrisCarpenter.pdf

"Chris a person does not load the scap with his elbows down, this would produce way to much friction upon elevation.....The elevation of the arm should be an assistant to proper scap loading."

So then you're saying that, since Nolan Ryan has his elbows below his shoulders in frame 27.1, he's not scap loading?

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf

Is the same thing true for Roger Clemens in frames 57.1 and 57.2...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_RogerClemens.pdf

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
(Avery)...he is doing something that sure as heck looks like scap loading...

Final conclusive evidence that you don't know what scap loading is.

Fine.

Then explain why what Avery is doing is not scap loading.

Do the research.

And quit talking about something you know nothing about until you do.

I have done the research.

How about this. Show me one pitcher of the many that I have studied who do scap loading the way you think it should be done...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/analyses.html

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
I have done the research.

Where? At the Marshall mansion of mayhem, misfits, and minions?

You won't find any answers there......at least nothing about how mlb pitchers throw.

You're a funny guy...

No. I've read the research behind the physiology of the shoulder and studied the motions and mechanics of both successful and unsuccessful professionals.

Let me ask again.

Show me one pitcher of the many that I have studied who do scap loading the way you think it should be done...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/pitching/analyses.html

I assume that PP was referring to Carpenter as doing it (and presumably correctly), but I want to be certain.

Just to prove that I have done the research, here are a few links to sites that talk about scap loading...

http://www.theathleticpitcher.com/images/TAP_video_BS.WMV

http://www.webball.com/bullpen/p3_scap.html

http://www.thecompletepitcher.com/pitching_article-12.htm

I'd love to know if and how they got it wrong.

Is Linear the only one who knows anything about pitching and hitting or am I missing something here---no matter who posts what Linear says they are wrong and he is right

Has he ever coached baseball?

If I were you I would entertain the idea of learning from the guy who coined the term.

Then again, I believe you tried that already and found out how ****** you are.

So, good luck.

quote:

Originally posted by TRhit:
or am I missing something here---

You're missing something here.

And there.

Everywhere

What I find so funny about this is that the same people who accuse Marshall of being mysterious do exactly the same thing when it comes to scap loading.

It's only a mystery if you....

Can't get on the site.

Can't read.

Can't comprehend what you read.

Won't comprehend what you read.

Or, your religion stands in the way of truth.

This scap stuff is well past the point of being productive and informative. Can we try another throwing mechanics topic?

What's everyones opinion about lower body drive vs the dead leg? It seams like more MLB pitchers throw without a drive from the back leg. My son's pitching coach comes from the lower body drive school.

Now, let's all play nice on this one.

How you define lower leg drive is very important. As in, how or where are you driving?

Driving the right knee (on a right handed pitcher) straight toward the plate to within a few inches or a foot of the left knee. The ball release happens about the time the knees are closest together or maybe a little before.

"What's everyones opinion about lower body drive vs the dead leg? It seams like more MLB pitchers throw without a drive from the back leg. My son's pitching coach comes from the lower body drive school."

Keep in mind that I believe that the rotation of the hips, torso, and shoulder are the primary source of power (due to the size of the muscles involved).

Therefore, I believe that driving off of the rubber with the pitching arm side leg it can be helpful if it facilitates the continued rotation of the hips. Conversely, leaving the pitching arm side foot behind on the rubber can limit the amount that the hips can rotate and thus power.

One caveat is that this effect depends on the hips being in a position to continue to rotate.

Of course, all of this also has to be timed properly.

Linear,

Tom Seaver drove his straight to the Hall of Fame.

Maddux certainly doesn't bring the pitching arm side leg forward. Instead, he leaves it behind on the rubber.

However, the way he pitches isn't the only way to pitch.

He has to leave his pitching arm side leg behind for balance purposes because he strides into a sharply bent glove-side knee. If he didn't stride into such a bent glove-side knee, he would be able to get more on top of his glove-side knee and would be able to get his pitching arm side knee farther off the rubber. The bonus would be that he would raise his release point.

His right foot IS well ahead of the rubber at the release point.

However, he still drags his toe as if he is desperately trying to to keep his toe on his rubber. If he didn't try to drag his toe, and instead just let his leg and his hips come around like they want to, he might be able to reach a higher velocity.

Granted, this is all sheer speculation. Doing what I say above may completely throw off his balance.

However, I'm not convinced that any pitcher has achieved perfection.

Don't get me wrong. He does some things great.

For example, notice how his hips reverse-rotate, which lets him gets his hips around powerfully, but his shoulders stay pretty much in line with the target, which lets him throw from a more vertical arm slot. This also allows him to generate more power even though his hips end up locking after his glove side foot lands. He also lands very soft with his glove side foot.

I do have a problem with the length of his stride. Notice how his hips absolutely stop turning 2 frames after his glove-side foot plants. This is because his knee is bent 90 degrees. It also lowers his release point.

My question isn't that this doesn't work for him. It obviously does.

The question is whether it would work for everyone.

You, my friend, are lost.

BB Linear TR or whoever

yea, its okay to have that long stride and hip rotation in the slowest most methodical loading process in windup (FW) as possible, holding rotation as long as possible till toe to heel touchdown. Would you agree with that?

Film shows power rotation occurs before touch down

Sheo

Scout

Impossible to convert a Marshallite.

They are so overwelmed that they can actually talk to a former Cy Young award winner that they drink the Kool Aid. All of it.

While my first inclination is to ask you how many Cy Young awards your favorite pitching guru has won, let me instead make it clear that I'm as skeptical as the next guy. That's why I've done all of my own research to validate what Dr. Marshall says.

I've also had my share of exposure to professional athletes, so the awe factor has worn off.

Andy Van Slyke was an investor in the last startup I joined. I talked to Dave Butz (of the Redskins) about investing in the same startup. I regularly see Andy Benes with his kids at the park and the mall (saw him last weekend, in fact). A friend from high school (Henry Jones) played Safety for the Bills during the 90s.

I have come to learn that, if you get past their amazing physical abilities, they aren't gods who should be followed blindly.

quote:

Originally posted by Coach Chris:
That's why I've done all of my own research to validate what Dr. Marshall says.

oxymoron.

And what research have you done to validate your faith in the ideas espoused by YOUR favorite guru?

Or is it just blind faith?

We love talking heroes when we get into ths stuff. I have watched that clip about 100 times and I can see that Maddux had some incredible live arm action, thats evident in his 92-95 in the day. But i've seen many pitchers and I just don't see hip rotation there. That doesn't mean much to Maddux because he's proven. But I can get a lot more out of a pitcher when teaching more hip rotation.

No but I'm sure you are. We don't see that kind of talent often, like in a maddux. In fact if I could teach 100,000 kids, 99,999 would not have what he has. So why do we always compare to guys that are the best, when we are trying to teach a mediocre kid how to compete on a higher level. I don't see rotation as it is taught, and I'll stand by that. I will not insist as I for one, know that I'm not an expert.

Coach Chris,

Enjoyed the 25 pages or so of pitching analysis on the great Nolan Ryan.

The one "key" that stands out in my mind was the comment you made about the glove foot planted before the shoulder rotation occurs.
That is the lower-body power base with the strongest muscles providing a foundation to rotate upper body in front of a powerful wall of resistence creating bull-whip pop with arm action coming forward behind everything I just described taking place beforehand. Great!

Thanks Coach for Analysis,

Shepster

To see the hip rotation, open up the QuickTime player and then open this URL...

http://dmcmillan.topcities.com/gm1.mpg

One the QuickTime player opens, click on Window > Movie Info in the main menu. That will let you see the timestamps of the file listed under "Current Time".

At 1:21 his hips are square to Home Plate.

At 2:24 he has maximally reverse-rotated his hips (now square to 3B).

At 3:10 he has opened up his hips so that they are now square to Home Plate again.

He physically can't do this without rotating his hips.

Although it doesn't apply to this clip, the easiest way to track someone's hip rotation is to look at the position of their belt buckle in a picture. If present, you can also track the differential between the rotation of their hips and shoulders by watching the buttons down the front of their shirt curve.

I got you Coach and I do see that hip rotation and thats how I've always viewed it.

I watched this one hundreds of times the other day and do see what you are referring to in rotation.

This clip supports our theories.

Great instructional piece!

Shep

"The one "key" that stands out in my mind was the comment you made about the glove foot planted before the shoulder rotation occurs."

The shoulders starting to rotate before the glove-side foot is planted is a critical timing flaw. Of course, you don't see it much in major leaguers because a guy can't throw straight or hard if he does this. Guys who are prone to this flaw get shaken out early in the process.

Glad you found it helpful.

Sorry I was trying to sound like I knew something in your presence again BBscout. What does the BB stand for anyway. Maddux is not the only pitcher nor the only successful pitcher we've seen in the past twenty years, no doubt one of my favorite and one of the best.

BB

Went back and viewed many more times after reading your post.

What do you mean about what Coach said?

Shep

Coachric

Heard anything good your way? New preferably-lol

Shep

Coachric

They lit it up! Both of them.

Shep

Yes Shep. I have a kid that I instruct that is CFCA's #2. He doesn't quite compare to Jacob. Somebody had a gun on him in late october and he was 89-91 and hit 93 5 or 6 times. Thats what I was told by the high school coach. I actually turned down an assistants position there this year. I like my free time, and I get to go around and watch all the kids that I train.

I don't think I see an inconsistency.

3:09 - Heel of glove-side foot plants. Toe about an inch off the ground. Back is arching relative to previous frame but shoulders not yet turning significantly.

3:10 - Glove-side foot 90% planted. Toe is 1/2 inch off ground (but spikes are planted). Shoulders are just starting to turn (maybe 10 degrees).

3:11 - Glove-side foot fully planted. Shoulders are accelerating (maybe 45 degrees). Look at his pecs pop out of the front of his shirt.

You type too fast for me. Yes I've seen Max S. and he is the real deal. His team B.M. is only a 3a school, but they are always as good as any 6a here. They had a catcher a couple years ago that I saw named Drew B. then went to ucf and I believe he was drafted last summer. Great arm and makeup. I think Max is even better than he was at this stage.

Coachric

Will probably get to see the no 2 also. Glad you told me. Thanks.

I like my free time too and will probably see some of your players. Going to erase code letters in previous posts since you know em.
Don't want the rest of the scouts to get any clues, they have those two anyway but never know.

Shep

BB thought you had moved on to summer league and private lessons.

Will answer question for Coachric.

BB stands for baseball???

Shep

Shep, you have a PM

To a degree it depends on what you define as "planted". Perhaps stable is a better term. The key point is that the foot can't twist.

I disagree how much his shoulders turn at foot plant. If you define foot plant as flat on the ground (versus stable), then I would say that his shoulders have turned 90 degrees at that point.

However, his total shoulder rotation is something like 145 degrees (10+90+45).

Bob & Weave Marshallite.

It's called rotation into footplant. ALL of them do it.

"Shep, I was refering to the above statement which is 100% incorrect. It is not a timing flaw, as Maddux has great timing"

I'm not saying that Maddux suffers from this flaw. He obviously doesn't. Instead, he's pretty much perfect.

Guys who have this flaw usually have it a ton. Their shoulders start turning while their glove-side foot is several inches off the ground.


"by the time his foot is planted, he has nearly completed his shoulder rotation, much like all the other great pitchers."

What great pitchers are you talking about? This isn't true for Nolan Ryan (see frames 28.2 and 29.1)...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_NolanRyan.pdf

His shoulders only start to turn after his glove side foot plants (which creates a huge differential between the rotation of his hips and shoulders and helps to explain his velocity).

Neither did Seaver (see frame 24.1)...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_TomSeaver.pdf

...nor did Koufax (see frame 15.5)...

http://www.chrisoleary.com/documents/PitcherAnalysis_SandyKoufax.pdf

Sorry guys been-a-typing a PM

Definitely interested in good prospects in central FL

Linear>You guys doing that marshallite thingy again??? LOL\\//

Shep

"It's called rotation into footplant. ALL of them do it."

This has nothing to do with Dr. Marshall.

Yes, the hips do rotate into footplant (they have to), but the shoulders don't.

What you are saying is completely contradicted by what the photos show.

Do you guys endorse and/or teach power V.

It can definitely be seen in several frames of the great illustration of Nolan Ryan by Coach Chris O., I will assume.

Shep

LOL BB MAC!

You are killing me softly

"Here is Koufax in a "real" film."

There's no question that Koufax's timing is different in this clip, although I would disagree that his shoulders are 95% turned at foot plant. By my estimate, Koufax's shoulder rotation is nearly 180 degrees, and at foot plant his shoulders are turned maybe 75 degrees.

I think part of the difference may be due to the difference in the pitch. In my frame, Koufax has a fastball grip. In your clip, he is throwing a curveball (which hits the outside corner for a strike).

"Do you guys endorse and/or teach power V."

I'm not familiar with this term in the context of pitching.

Do you mean scap(ular) loading?